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Topic Originator: desparado
Date: Sat 14 Dec 16:14
Or full fiscal autonomy .....
Hearing rumblings that Bojo might actually offer this, having said that I read a comment from a well respected blogger who reckons that there will be a headline in one of the Sunday papers saying that the U.K. gov will retract the Scotland act and try and close Holyrood down......lets see the papers tomorrow.
Talk about from one extreme to the other.
But getting back to the devo Max question, if it does get offered and is on the ballot paper in a future Indy ref would it be a vote winner?
Before I would consider it ,it would have to be written in stone and not just some paper promise, a vow that could be torn up by a future government or PM.
It would need to be agreed to by both governments and only ever changed or tweaked with Holyroods consent........if it is not shutdown of course.
Now if they do try that, there will be serious trouble up here.
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Sat 14 Dec 16:39
If Johnson were prepared to concede Devomax that would be quite an astute move and show more sense than Cameron did last time with his ‘All or Nothing’ ballot. In fact there would probably be no need for any ballot if that was offered. Plenty of SNP politicians are perfectly happy with their salaries and are nervous of rocking the boat, so Devomax would save them from having to make a choice between the status quo or a fight for independence.
That position is probably reflected in the population at large where I would doubt that there are enough people prepared to take up arms and risk their lives for Scottish Independence. However that would change if there was a ham fisted attempt to close down the Holyrood Parliament. Johnson has previous for shutting down parliaments so the blogger’s rumour cannot be entirely discounted.
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Sat 14 Dec 17:09
There will be no shutting down of Holyrood but nor will Westminster sanction any referendum. The reason that neither thing will happen is that there is no upside for Johnson in doing so. He's got his hefty majority and taking a tough line on Scotland will go down well in his new found Tory heartlands as well as the old heartlands as well.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Sat 14 Dec 18:02
I've never been clear what the case for the union is. It never seems to be articulated other than by platitudes like 'we're stronger together' or 'this precious union'. Scotland has never been treated as anything like an equal and that was clearly illustrated during the Brexit negotiations.
I suspect Scotland is viewed as the last colony and, for that reason, it's loss would be symbolic. I find it hard to imagine that the Tories in particular are too interested in what the people who live here actually want.
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Topic Originator: BigJPar
Date: Sat 14 Dec 19:51
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Sat 14 Dec 20:10
What's the difference between Devo Max and independence? Seems a bit like splitting the house in two but in one scenario you keep the same leccy meter and in the other you have separate.
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Sat 14 Dec 20:26
Quote:
jake89, Sat 14 Dec 20:10
What's the difference between Devo Max and independence? Seems a bit like splitting the house in two but in one scenario you keep the same leccy meter and in the other you have separate.
In Scotland's case it could mean the little matter of being in or out of the EU....
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Sat 14 Dec 20:35
Or still in the UK....
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: BigJPar
Date: Sat 14 Dec 20:39
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Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe
Date: Sat 14 Dec 21:26
Devo Max would have won the day in 2014 if offered imo.
It satisfied the people wanting Scotland to run it's own affairs and get soft unionists onside by staying in the UK. It was the logical step in our political evolution and independence would have been off the table for that generation for real.
I agree that ship has sailed now and Scotland and England seem to be on an unfixable divergence.
Zwei Pints Bier und ein Päckchen Chips bitte
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Sat 14 Dec 22:02
Same currency? The what id the point?
An independent Scotland either has to establish its own currency- the Merk- or adopt the Euro. Clinging on to the GBP was partly what scuppered the last referendum. If we don't have the guts to declare our own currency outwith the Bank of England then we don't deserve to be independent.
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Topic Originator: desparado
Date: Sun 15 Dec 01:10
I think the problem was and still is that to have your own currency you need to have your own central bank and we don’t...yet. That is why SNP stated that we would keep the pound for the short to medium term at least.
I don’t see the problem with that if it was unequivocally declared, until such time that we had our own CB, one parliamentary term for instance I can’t see there being some financial disaster in that period that would cause us a major problem like the BØE changing the interest rate by a smidgeon here and there.
But it does need nailed down once and for all as it was undoubtedly one of the reasons we failed last time.
Other countries have set up their own currency and CB in a relatively short period of time and there is no reason why Scotland could not, especially with us having Oil and Gas reserves to back it up, something that rUK would lose after independence .
The U.K. credit rating is already under pressure and it would fall further after Indy and they know it......just one of the reasons they are so determined to stop it.
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Topic Originator: desparado
Date: Sun 15 Dec 01:19
Reading quite a few posts on social media today from No voters in 2014 that they are now Yes......encouraging. One Tory, mostly Labour.
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Sun 15 Dec 09:19
Despy, I bet the rUK would still have a far higher credit rating than us though.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Sun 15 Dec 12:11
''Scotland is stronger in the United Kingdom.'' - Michael Gove on ITV this morning but again I don't think he elaborated on why that is his opinion. Can anyone help him?
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Topic Originator: Tenruh
Date: Sun 15 Dec 13:49
Knocker, Why would that be?
Post Edited (Sun 15 Dec 13:50)
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Topic Originator: desparado
Date: Sun 15 Dec 13:58
Date: Sun 15 Dec 09:19
Despy, I bet the rUK would still have a far higher credit rating than us though.
I beg to differ.
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Sun 15 Dec 14:12
Tenruh, because the credit rating agencies have said so. Obviously that was then and circumstances will be different in the future.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: sadindiefreak
Date: Sun 15 Dec 14:32
Quote:
The One Who Knocks, Sun 15 Dec 14:12
Tenruh, because the credit rating agencies have said so. Obviously that was then and circumstances will be different in the future.
Standard and Poor's have previously said that an independent Scotland could have a AAA credit rating while rUK at the time had a AA rating.
They explained that this could be achieved by having less dependency on the financial sector as it is seen as high risk.
Independence would mean we had the levers to drive the economy in the direction we want to achieve the AAA rating.
Another advantage is that smaller economies are much easier to manage as evidenced by how quickly the smaller countries recovered from the 2008 financial crash while the UK is still not recovered from it.
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Sun 15 Dec 14:41
That was in 2014 when the oil price was riding high. In 2017 moodys said Scotland would have a junk status rating due to the lower oil price.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Sun 15 Dec 14:41
It drives me nuts when commentators and politicians downplay Scotland's economic performance without acknowledging that the existing data relate to Scotland as part of the UK. An independent Scotland would be following a different economic model.
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Sun 15 Dec 14:47
Well we don't know if we'd have a different economic model. That would be up to the future Scottish government to decide. I suspect the economic model will be much the same. Spend more than is raised and use borrowing to plug the difference.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: sadindiefreak
Date: Sun 15 Dec 15:06
Quote:
The One Who Knocks, Sun 15 Dec 14:47
Well we don't know if we'd have a different economic model. That would be up to the future Scottish government to decide. I suspect the economic model will be much the same. Spend more than is raised and use borrowing to plug the difference.
We don't spend more than we raise though.
We spend what we get back in pocket money then the UK government allocates more spending on our behalf.
On things like Trident, HS2, Wars in the middle east, financing the ever rising national debt etc, etc.
We can decide not to waste this money.
There was an economic think tank just a couple of month ago said that if Scotland invested and managed the economy well our share of national debt would be down to zero in 7 years.
The unionists would have us believe we are some sort of economic basket case when the truth is under their stewardship the UKs debt now tops 2 trillion while the richest people are paying less tax than ever.
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Topic Originator: Tenruh
Date: Sun 15 Dec 15:07
Quote:
The One Who Knocks, Sun 15 Dec 14:47
Well we don't know if we'd have a different economic model. That would be up to the future Scottish government to decide. I suspect the economic model will be much the same. Spend more than is raised and use borrowing to plug the difference.
Ah the Scottish cringe with you then....
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Sun 15 Dec 15:10
The term "the Scottish Cringe" is awful. Just because someone doesn't believe Scotland is the land of milk and honey doesn't mean they dislike the country or are ashamed of it.
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Sun 15 Dec 16:04
Who believes Scotland is 'the land of milk and honey'? Most supporters of independence just think we'd be better making decisions for ourselves rather than have them imposed on us by a government we haven't elected. Brexit is a classic example. What is the point of being in union with another country which is going in an opposite direction from us on a major issue and whose decision will trump ours? That's what I meant when I asked someone to explain why Scotland is stronger in the UK.
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Sun 15 Dec 16:26
Quote:
wee eck, Sun 15 Dec 16:04
Who believes Scotland is 'the land of milk and honey'? Most supporters of independence just think we'd be better making decisions for ourselves rather than have them imposed on us by a government we haven't elected. Brexit is a classic example. What is the point of being in union with another country which is going in an opposite direction from us on a major issue and whose decision will trump ours? That's what I meant when I asked someone to explain why Scotland is stronger in the UK.
Hard to argue with any part of your post, wee eck. I wasn't convinced that independence was the best path for Scotland to set out on in 2014, because we are a small nation and too much stress was placed on the value of crude oil, but I'm much more empathetic now.
A Scotland within the EU would not be isolated and might benefit from the redistribution of wealth, if the Scottish Government could make a good case.
Not your average Sunday League player.
Post Edited (Sun 15 Dec 16:27)
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Sun 15 Dec 17:29
I agree with you, wee eck. Point is that anyone who even questions how Scotland will be run appears to then be accused of being a Tory or having the "Scottish Cringe". There's absolutely nothing wrong with not wanting independence in the same way there's nothing wrong with wanting it.
I'd embrace independence but also feel more detail is needed to convince people. Concerns over currency and pensions seem to be the main issues.
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Topic Originator: desparado
Date: Sun 15 Dec 17:52
The Scotland will be run the way other small successful independent European nations are run.
Scotland will have a currency the same as other small successful independent European nations have.
Scotland will provide its citizens with a pension that other small successful independent European nations provide for their citizens.
Won’t be hard to pay a bit more that’s the U.K. currently does.......the worst in Europe.
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Sun 15 Dec 18:14
But that's just you saying that. How will pensions work? Scotland has its share in the UK pot so will it get that back?
In the shirt term, how will we continue to move forward whilst essentially setting up a new country?
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Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Sun 15 Dec 18:18
essentially setting up a new country?
Would we be though? Scotland already has mostly independent institutions so it's not like we'd be starting from a blank page - far from it.
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Topic Originator: Tenruh
Date: Sun 15 Dec 18:59
Quote:
jake89, Sun 15 Dec 18:14
But that's just you saying that. How will pensions work? Scotland has its share in the UK pot so will it get that back?
In the shirt term, how will we continue to move forward whilst essentially setting up a new country?
You've got to move beyond the short term, I have no idea how disruptive it might get, but just look how successful over time the smaller ex Eastern Bloc countries have thrived. Maybe some short term pain for long term gains.
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Sun 15 Dec 18:59
It doesn't have a currency, it doesn't have an army, navy, air force (though does have bases), it doesn't have a central bank, it doesn't have consulates, it doesn't have a passport system...
There's loads that needs set up.
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Sun 15 Dec 19:05
Also want to be clear this isn't me doing a "you're too wee". My view is that people like to see how things will work before committing. So if the Scottish Government can turn round and say "We'll set up this, create a base for that, develop this" etc. Then I think they're in with a strong chance.
The problem is focussing on the main concerns of the public rather than what may be the REAL issues.
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Topic Originator: BigJPar
Date: Sun 15 Dec 19:31
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Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Sun 15 Dec 19:33
There's loads that needs set up.
There's also loads there already. More than most regions in the world would have if they became independent.
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Topic Originator: moviescot
Date: Mon 16 Dec 01:37
Quote:
jake89, Sun 15 Dec 18:59
It doesn't have a currency, it doesn't have an army, navy, air force (though does have bases), it doesn't have a central bank, it doesn't have consulates, it doesn't have a passport system...
There's loads that needs set up.
It can set up a currency. It can keep the pound or it can create a currency and peg it to the pound, the euro or the dollar. This is very easy in the short term. We then set up a central bank. We're quite good at that considering a Scot set up the bank of England.
Consulates used to be easy. British citizens were able to approach and getl for help from any EU Nation. This will clearly change after brexit though.
As you say we have no army, navy or air force but do have the bases. We would be entitled to our share of the UK forces though.
Personally I would prefer to go down the Iceland road. They have no army, navy or air force. Clearly that is wishful thinking but if you look back in history Scotland has only been attacked in the last 800 years or so by England. So we really have no natural enemies.
Pensions is a good one. The UK did say during the last referendum that pensions would continue for everyone who had paid into UK pension. So this was never an issue.
As an aside, since 1939, 62 countries of all sizes have gained independence from the UK. Can anyone tell me any country that has come back and asked to be part of the UK?
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Topic Originator: aaaaaaaaaargh
Date: Mon 16 Dec 12:40
"if you look back in history Scotland has only been attacked in the last 800 years or so by England"
If Churchill was flying the planes during the Clydebank Blitz then you are right.
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Topic Originator: moviescot
Date: Mon 16 Dec 14:48
Quote:
aaaaaaaaaargh, Mon 16 Dec 12:40
"if you look back in history Scotland has only been attacked in the last 800 years or so by England"
If Churchill was flying the planes during the Clydebank Blitz then you are right.
I'll reword that. No one has invaded Scotland in the last 800 years except England.
Post Edited (Mon 16 Dec 14:52)
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Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Mon 16 Dec 17:37
What about the Dutch in 1688?
Or France in 1799?
Admittedly both were invading the UK, but that included Scotland at the time.
I get your point though; Scotland would only require a small defensive force rather than the UK's rather more expensive need to "project influence."
Our share of the cost of Trident is about £4billion, which could train a lot of actual factual genuinely new nurses.
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Topic Originator: veteraneastender
Date: Mon 16 Dec 18:16
"I'll reword that. No one has invaded Scotland in the last 800 years except England."
French and Spanish troops took part in separate Jacobite rebellions in support of the Stuart cause.
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Topic Originator: Andrew283
Date: Mon 16 Dec 20:43
.
Post Edited (Mon 16 Dec 20:43)
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Topic Originator: Andrew283
Date: Mon 16 Dec 20:43
Quote:
Andrew283, Mon 16 Dec 20:43
1 nuke for every 6 Scottish person seems like the only logical way to defend our borders...
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Topic Originator: donj
Date: Mon 16 Dec 21:00
If we get into nukes I do notice we still have a load of radioactive polaris rusting hulks in Rosyth with I believe nobody having a clue how to dispose of them.Oh and guess where the old tridents will be dumped when replaced.
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