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 Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: P  
Date:   Sat 24 Jun 08:18

Called for rebellion and declared they will march their 25,000 forces to Moscow.

Meanwhile Putins Operation fortress deploys tanks in Moscow and declares an ‘Anti Terrorist Operation Regime’ (sounds like military law to me)

I really can’t wait for Sammers positive spin on how everything is ticketyboo in Russia for this one.

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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sat 24 Jun 08:43

This rebellion will soon be crushed but Prigohzin has let the cat out of the bag by confirming what we all knew with his own take on why this invasion of Ukraine was committed. Putin has just been on Russian TV denouncing this `stab in the back`. Now where have I heard that term used before in history?

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: Parboiled  
Date:   Sat 24 Jun 10:32

Julius Caesar?

Then again he got stabbed all over…

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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sat 24 Jun 11:05

Was actually thinking about the `stab in th back` myth that was doing th rounds in 1920s Germany as to why they lost the First World War and to which the Nazis used to further their fascist agenda.

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Sat 24 Jun 12:07

Looks like they have also taken Voronezh without a single shot being fired. Russian forces there not prepared to fight for Putler.
The only resistance Wagner have faced is 3 attack helicopters in Rostov which were shot down. And rumours are they were told it was Ukrainians they were going out to face and not Wagner.
Hopefully this is the end for Putler but Pogozhin is just as bad as Putler. He is also a Neo Nazi but at least he was honest enough to say there were no Nazis in Ukraine and that was not why they were there to fight.
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Sat 24 Jun 12:10

Putin attempting to flee to Kazakhstan but his plane has been denied entry to Kazakh airspace.
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Sat 24 Jun 12:20

Video footage now of the aftermath of bombs being dropped in Voronezh. So some resistance coming from the air but none on the ground.
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Sat 24 Jun 12:35

Basically just more needless violence. Here`s hoping that these events end all this nonsense. We all share a planet, why can`t we work together or at least leave each other alone?
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Sat 24 Jun 12:45

Wagner now reportedly crossing Sokolova Pustyn Bridge just 70 miles south of The Kremlin.
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Sat 24 Jun 18:09

Moscow reportedly in a panic :-

The Moscow region has suspended all mass outdoor events until 1 July, the authorities announced.

It follows the mayor telling everyone to refrain from travelling around the city.

We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Sat 24 Jun 18:34

Today is usually a celebration of school leavers but all public gatherings in Moscow have been cancelled. Monday has been declared a public holiday presumably to keep people off the streets.

Prigozhin`s proposed march on Moscow has yet to capture any widespread support from the citizenry. Since he has announced not a single political objective this is hardly surprising. Launching a coup on 24th June- the rumour is it was planned for 22nd June, the date of the Nazi invasion in 1941- is seen by many as an admission of his political motives.

Naturally enough western media are excited at the prospect of civil war within Russia but at the moment (8.30pm) Prigozhin`s move seems more like an attempted coup than a revolution.

Putin is usually portrayed as a ruthless authoritarian leader intent on restoring some kind of Russian empire. Well, Prigozhin is the real deal in that respect.

sammer
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sat 24 Jun 18:46

Prigohzin has told his men to turn back. Wagner is finished and I suspect their leader won`t last long now.

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: P  
Date:   Sat 24 Jun 19:12

Didn’t last long

“Mutinous Russian mercenary fighters who surged most of the way to Moscow have agreed to turn back to avoid bloodshed, their leader said on Saturday, in a de-escalation of what had become a major challenge to President Vladimir Putin`s grip on power.
The fighters of the Wagner private army run by former Putin ally Yevgeny Prigozhin were already most of the way to the capital, having captured the city of Rostov and set off on an 1,100 km (680 mile) race to Moscow.
In an audio message, Prigozhin said the fighters would return to base because of the risk of blood being spilled.
A deal to halt further movement of Wagner fighters across Russia in return for guarantees of safety for the rebels was brokered by Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko, his office said.”

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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Sat 24 Jun 19:28

This could be a Saul Herzog Book

We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Sat 24 Jun 21:45

Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Sat 24 Jun 18:46

Prigohzin has told his men to turn back. Wagner is finished and I suspect their leader won`t last long now.

Especially with that bad spelling Towk probably bottom of the class

We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sat 24 Jun 22:24

My eternal shame that I got the Z and the H the wrong way round though to be fair I did have to read your sentence a couple of times as it was so poorly constructed. You can join me at the back with the dunces cap on BP. 😋

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy  
Date:   Sat 24 Jun 23:07

Very interesting turn of events and genuinely amazed at how powerless the Russians were to stop the takeover of two fairly major cities, including their military facilities.

Regardless of how its spun, that simple fact is a major embarrassment for Vladimir Putin and his "strongman" image. Even the biggest of Russian "Z" zealots will know this.

You do have to wonder what concessions Putin actually made to stop the advance on Moscow. Very much doubt it was a simple as Lukashenko saying "Look, nobody has come out in support of you. Stop now or there will be Russian bloodshed." I very much doubt that a Wagner assault on Moscow could have been stopped by the military assets and personnel left in the area - it would have been more of a question over how long they could hold the city. Guaranteed though that Putin was not in the city!

What`s the bets on assassination method of Prigozhin? Novichok? Radiation poisoning? Window? "Heart Attack"?

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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Sun 25 Jun 00:50

I am reminded of the Jacobite Rebellion and the advance of their forces towards London. They got as far as Derby before the decision was taken to turn back to Scotland. Four months later, their army was routed at Culloden.

Could history repeat itself?

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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Sun 25 Jun 01:22

The Kapp putsch in Germany 1920 might be a useful starting point when trying to make sense of yesterday`s events.

Prigozhin has for months been voicing his sense of injured merit, but he had a snowball`s chance in hell of ever occupying Moscow with his band of Wagner troops. It`s being reported here that Prigozhin was promised by Ukraine and western intelligence that terrorists cells would create some havoc inside Moscow region, thus creating the conditions for Prigozhin to be welcomed as some kind of saviour of the city. He never had a slogan, far less a political programme so it`s hard to see any other reason why Muscovites would have rallied to a cause that simply does not exist.

His barrack room bluster about casualties has sympathy in Russia of course, but then the Wagner fighters are recruited on the very basis that they will undertake fierce house to house fighting which makes casualties inevitable. Prigozhin`s complaints of corruption are dismissed on the grounds of hypocrisy. He made his money during the wild west capitalism of the 1990s when looting public assets was legal, and was imprisoned for armed robbery before that when in his twenties. Lukashenko is welcome to a man (with no military background) who marches his troops in the wrong direction.

sammer
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Sun 25 Jun 16:12

What you just gave, Sammer, is a wonderful description of a few of the failures of the Russia that Putin built. None of what is currently happening should be a surprise to anybody.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: Andrew283  
Date:   Sun 25 Jun 17:05

Military coups, failed or successful, do not tend to happen in well run countries.
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: Jeffery  
Date:   Sun 25 Jun 19:27

This must be embarrassing for Putin surely?

He`s partly based his `special military operation` on opposing supposedly gathering NATO forces. Now he`s being marched upon by a military force within his own borders.
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy  
Date:   Tue 27 Jun 06:52

Absolutely has to be an absolute embarrassment. Tracking data showing that his presidential jets left Moscow, so he quite obviously fled on one of those. Very doubtful that the authorities could have mustered the troops to defend Moscow from Wagner

Seems to be a bit of speculation now that Prigozhin might be used as a replacement for Lukashenko in Belarus, who is rumoured to be quite ill. That said, it`s also emerging that Wagner downed 6-8 Russian aircraft, which I can`t see Putin forgiving. Only seems to have released an audio message via Telegram so far and both his and Putin`s whereabouts are unknown.

As it stands, I could see another incursion into Northern Ukraine from Belarus or a worsening of the situation at Zaporizhzhia being the trigger for NATO becoming involved. The latter would leave them little choice to be frank and NATO airpower would make things move VERY quickly. With the chaos and incompetence the Russians have shown With the chaos and incompetence the Russians have shown so far, I really wouldn`t rule it out.

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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Tue 27 Jun 19:31

The sorrow from western media after the dizzy hours of Saturday morning is quite palpable. Being denied a bloodbath inside the Russian federation, the sight of Russian killing Russian, has left many media commentators like Luke Harding quite bereft. The Russian oligarchs in London, sent scuttling some years ago by Putin after looting the country in the 1990s, briefly saw a chance to return and oversee some more looting so are now despondent. You have to see it from their point of view. In Russia they stand a chance of being banged up in jail: in the UK, after making their political donations, they are more likely to be banged up in the House of Lords.

Prigozhin had no more chance of reaching Moscow than the Pars have of making the European Champions League. Even had his delusional dream of the Russian military laying down their their swords and allowing 5,000 Wagner troops free passage come to pass, a mass of Moscow’s 12 million citizens would have blocked entry to the city. That is one advantage of a country still retaining a powerful Communist Party organisation: it can rally workers on to the streets in a manner which only France and Greece have retained in western Europe.

Having consulted western media, quite why NATO needs to enter a war that Ukraine has been winning hands down for the last 18 months is hard to fathom. Given the chaos and incompetence of the Russian armed forces as stated by HJ and many military experts, Russian surrender can only be a matter of months, if not weeks, away. Should Russian forces sabotage the Zaphorizia nuclear plant they will only achieve what Ukrainian forces have been attempting by shelling it for months on end. Any nuclear fallout will surely harm those people in areas under Russian control and save NATO the need to go in and kill them. Either that or the western media is misleading me.

sammer
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: red-star-par  
Date:   Tue 27 Jun 20:07

Always quite interesting to see Sammers take on things. It was certainly an interesting development on Saturday. Putin does look weak now though, having to cut a deal with the Wagner group to cling on to power. I suspect both leaders are dead men walking now
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Wed 28 Jun 01:03

Putin has been portrayed as weak in western media ever since he intervened in Syria to support Assad, a man whose obituaries were being written by Guardian leader writers over a decade ago. Assad remains in control of Syria, despite being described as a dead man on furlough at the time. Since he sent troops into Ukraine Putin has suffered, according to (anonymous) western sources close to NATO: a stroke, a heart attack, cancer, Parkinson`s Disease, kidney failure and a mental breakdown. A body double regularly stands in for him at meetings, we are told. Yet there he was on Saturday, looking `ashen faced` according to the western scribes crowded excitedly round their screens.

Politically, if Putin had hanged Prigozhin from the nearest lamp post that would have been described as a sign of weakness as well, and some justification I think. Talking of instability within Russia is reasonable comment given Andrew 283`s opinion a few posts back, but many of the claims of instability come from the UK where parliament was almost dissolved under Johnson and two Prime Ministers (unelected) have replaced him. For the time being at least, Putin has support from the military and political apparatus plus the citizenry as was seen on Saturday.

Some good might have arisen from Prigozhin`s pantomime putsch. Perhaps the western powers now realise that failure to negotiate with Putin may result in some much rougher beast slouching towards Bethlehem, or the Kremlin, to be born. In an earlier post Hurricane Jimmy seemed quite blase about NATO forces becoming officially active inside Ukraine (plenty are already there wearing Ukraine uniforms) which I read as his being quite relaxed about the prospect of WW3 between two nuclear powers. These reckless thoughts are echoed inside the US Senate and, as we saw on Saturday with Prigozhin, inside Russia as well.

sammer
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Wed 28 Jun 02:13

Ref: red-star-par
Tue 27 Jun 20:07

"Always quite interesting to see Sammers take on things."

--------------------------------------------------------------

Can`t agree with you there red star.

How come he’s always attacking western views? Sure there’s plenty crap among them, but I’m sure there’s at least as much crap among Russian views. Come on now sammer, let’s have some criticism of Russian propaganda, and Putin’s actions. Can you do them? Just for a change?



Post Edited (Wed 28 Jun 02:17)
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: Tenruh  
Date:   Wed 28 Jun 06:49

Question for Sammer, if Putin is disposed of what would that turn of events have on the war ?
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Wed 28 Jun 12:54

Ref: sammer`s posts

It`s a fashionable way among commentators these days - non-attestable, extreme opinionated stuff, with a capital `O`.

And this, another level in fantasy-speak:

"some much rougher beast slouching towards Bethlehem, or the Kremlin, to be born."*


If we don`t get any criticism of Russian propaganda, or Putin, from sammer, I suggest it`s fair to assume that it`s because he has no criticism to make. In which case, should such a "commentator" be allowed on this Politics forum?


* ref: sammer, Wed 28 Jun 01:03



Post Edited (Wed 28 Jun 13:00)
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Wed 28 Jun 17:47

Since most Russian media is blocked within the UK I’m not sure where this vast knowledge of Russian propaganda comes from. I suspect that Russian government statements and media articles are filtered through a NATO lens before being laid before an outraged western public. Most of the information I draw my opinions from actually comes from ‘dissident’ western commentators who are freely available both to a UK and Russian audience. These include former US military personnel, a couple of former CIA operatives and of course our own George Galloway. Patrick Lancaster, who was in Ukraine during the civil war in Donbas which preceded the Russian invasion, is worth a look since he actually managed a brief interview with Prigozhin in Rostov on Saturday.

Rather like Pope John Paul who always read his ‘Marxism Today,’ I am obliged to read NATO propaganda as served up in US and UK MSM. Often as not it is the absence of Ukraine news which tells the tale: for example a doomed Titanic submarine story or some Royalist guff about Kate Middleton is a sign that the Ukrainian counter offensive has been ineffective.

I wasn’t aware of a loyalty test being required to write on this politics website. I know it applies to The Guardian newspaper from which I, amongst several others, am effectively banned from commenting below the line. It also now applies to tennis players at Wimbledon who are required to denounce Putin/Lukashenko in order to compete. Such McCarthyism holds no appeal to me so I will resist the temptation to condemn Vladimir Putin, at least until I receive a satisfactory answer to the question I asked last week: given the encroachment of NATO forces, its military support for attacks on Russian people living in Donbas area and the failure to enact the Minsk accords, what alternative was missed by President Putin to resolve the situation?

In response to Tenruh’s question about Putin being replaced, it’s not really conceivable at the moment. Of course the same applied to Nicola Sturgeon a few months back so that’s hardly a guarantee. It would depend on who replaced him and why.

sammer
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Wed 28 Jun 19:12

Are there examples of Russian media that aren`t accessible in the UK?
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Wed 28 Jun 21:19

Ref sammer`s latest anti-West, pro-Putin propagandist `leaflet.`

Point one:

We have established that sammer believes Putin is innocent of any wrong-doing.

Point two:

It`s an irrelevance where the propaganda he reads or hears comes from. It`s up to him to make something of it, to support or reject it, wherever it`s coming from. And I already showed that his hero Galloway is an enemy of anyone who thinks differently to him (calls them `stupid`), and is therefore a questionable source.

Point three:

There was no loyalty test when sammer registered for dotnet. But the world has changed. He thinks dotnet should allow his propagandism because he`s a Pars fan. He also tries to trick the reader by raising the old freedom of speech red herring, when what he is really advocating is freedom of lies and complete unaccountability.

Point four:

Tennis has got nothing at all to do with sammer`s decisions regarding Putin and the Russian invasion of Ukraine. And neither has a lot of other stuff he posts.

It`s worth looking more closely at a typical sammer train of thought:

"I wasn’t aware of a loyalty test being required to write on this politics website. I know it applies to The Guardian newspaper from which I, amongst several others, am effectively banned from commenting below the line. It also now applies to tennis players at Wimbledon who are required to denounce Putin/Lukashenko in order to compete. Such McCarthyism holds no appeal to me so I will resist the temptation to condemn Vladimir Putin."

All that stuff leads up to: "so I will resist the temptation to condemn Vladimir Putin."

He can`t seriously mean `[all that stuff] is why I will not criticise VP.` Nevertheless it strikes me very strange how time and time again he comes up with reasons for supporting Putin, as if he wants us to believe Putin is absolutely squeaky clean.

Condemn Putin? I have asked him to criticise Putin. Anything at all, however small? No. Not a word. Conclusion: sammer is not just a supporter or admirer, but a devotee of `Vladimir Putin.`

Point five:

sammer, a devotee of Putin, is banned from commenting on the Guardian. I wonder why? Do they not support freedom of lies?

Point six:

The answer to his question, covering what he calls `encroachment of NATO`, Donbas Russians, Minsk accords etc. These were Ukrainain issues on Ukrainian territory, or issues that didn`t primarily concern Russia, any more than issues in Moscow primarily concerned Ukraine. Or they were figments of Putin`s imagination. `Encroachment of NATO?` Too bad if your neighbouring country chooses its own allies. Russia was afraid of being invaded? Oh yeh. Maybe Ukraine should have invaded Russia. After all Russia was the real threat, so it has proved.

Why didn`t Putin invite the Donbas Russians to move to Russia? That would have solved that one. But then he wouldn`t have been able to use it as a false pretext for invasion and land-grab.



Post Edited (Thu 29 Jun 00:48)
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: parsfan  
Date:   Wed 28 Jun 22:10

Quote:

sammer, Wed 28 Jun 17:47

given the encroachment of NATO forces, its military support for attacks on Russian people living in Donbas area and the failure to enact the Minsk accords, what alternative was missed by President Putin to resolve the situation?


You keep going on about The Minsk Accords as though there weren`t any obligations on Russia in them or that Russia upheld its side of the bargain. It didn`t. As long as there were Russian forces and heavy equipment in the Donbas Putin wasn`t upholding his side of the agreement. It needed both sides to make it work, that didn`t happen but you not doing your bit isn`t justification to escalate further. It was his invasion in the first place, not a civil war, and Ukraine had every right to resist and seek help in that resistance. One alternative Putin had was to pull out his forces in accordance with The Minsk Accords and start acting in good faith. Not going all-in.

It`s good to see you finally acknowledging Prigozhin as a Nazi. We tried to tell you that last year but it was fingers in the ears time for you.

If you`d been around in 1939/40 you`d have loved the Nazis. Brutal authoritarianism and staunchly opposed to the decadent western democracies - that`s you, no? Soviet ally and source of revenue for the Kremlin`s coffers (in return for vast amounts of raw materials for the Nazi war machine). What`s not to like?

Back to 2023, stabbed in the back by a Nazi friend. Again. Will they ever learn?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The universe is ruled by chance and indifference



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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Thu 29 Jun 01:49

Those who rail against Russian propaganda are adopting the position of that great moralist Mary Whitehouse. She often called for TV programmes and theatre productions to be banned although she had never seen them. She just knew they were wrong. In her case she relied on Christianity as her moral compass but the modern variants are democracy, diversity and sovereignty, amongst other abstract nouns.

In a similar vein OAUTP is keen to de-platform or cancel my contributions on this political website since they obviously disturb him as a member of the moral majority. I can assure him his contributions cause me no disturbance whatsoever and I would be happy for him to contribute here or on RT (if it was not banned in the UK) or any other site. I leave censorship to the Nazis such as have banned all Russian printed books and literature inside Ukraine. Or the theatres in the UK which have cancelled plays by Russian writers. Or those politicians in expensive suits bearing long faces who commemorated the liberation of Auschwitz recently but, in a grotesque rewriting of history, denied the attendance of the very country which actually liberated the camp. Or The Guardian, that great organ of warmongering for the pacifist middle classes which no longer offers BTL comments on any article from Harding or Tisdall since the responses are not in line with NATO orthodoxy. OAUTP has caught the zeitgeist of European fascism well and should be commended for so doing.

``Why didn`t Putin invite the Donbas Russians to move to Russia?``

A classic ethic cleansing argument and stated bluntly. About 2 million Russians have since done that after they were attacked under the Poroshenko/Zelensky regimes. But it’s a great solution to the Northern Ireland question: why don’t the Republicans just move south? You’ll hear it any Rangers supporters’ club on any weekend. Maybe the Good Friday Agreement missed a trick there. Maybe Hamza Yousef should explore the possibility. Anyhow, as of today, there have been no mass demonstrations inside the Donbas pleading to be liberated by the Azov battalions. Nor in the Crimea either. Maybe the people want to stay in their homeland without being subjected to ultra-Ukrainian nationalism, which they were happy to do prior to the 2014 coup.

sammer
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: P  
Date:   Thu 29 Jun 07:03

RT is available with a VPN in exactly the same way as you use one for UK media sammer so you’re not privy to anything that no one else can view.

Russian plays or music are not ‘banned’ they are cancelled because they would not be economically viable because Russia is not very popular and tickets will not sell

For some tennis whataboutery a Ukrainian women tennis player was vilified and booed on court for refusing to shake hands with her Russian opponent

For some other whataboutery I find it deeply weird/disturbing that you sound worried about Russians spilling Russian blood when you come across as entirely comfortable with Russians spilling Ukrainian blood even when that blood is civilian

You put a lot of stock into the absence of protests being tacit approval of a foreign armed invader while also acknowledging elsewhere that UK citizens don’t protest anymore - why would other nationalities be desperate to mobilise for protest and get run over by a tank?

That all said I don’t agree on any sort of loyalty test or banning from posting on this mainly because I do get some entertainment value from bizarre posts that often start off well but descend into gushing posts by Putins biggest fan boy (often if you just deleted the last paragraph or two before full flow many posts would be quite reasoned argument even if I don’t agree)



Post Edited (Thu 29 Jun 07:34)
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: Parboiled  
Date:   Thu 29 Jun 08:18

Putin toiling on all fronts, Sleepy Joe says he’s losing the war in Iraq..
And this doddery old fart is looking for another four years in the White House!

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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Thu 29 Jun 08:21

Sammer, you realise RT is easily available to anyone by simply downloading Tor browser, or using a VPN as suggested? I think you`re confusing this with countries like the UK and Germany "banning" the local version of RT from being broadcast in the country. You can still access the Russian RT online.
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Thu 29 Jun 19:42

Ach well, the Russian Air Force might just about manage to establish air superiority in Russian airspace now that Wagner is in Belarus.

How many aircraft did they shoot down again?


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Thu 29 Jun 20:05

And yet, Wotsit, for that misdemeanour all charges were dropped but if Sammer were to walk down main street Moscow with a placard saying `No War ` he`d be whisked away.

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: parsfan  
Date:   Thu 29 Jun 20:48

Quote:

The One Who Knocks, Thu 29 Jun 20:05

And yet, Wotsit, for that misdemeanour all charges were dropped but if Sammer were to walk down main street Moscow with a placard saying `No War ` he`d be whisked away.


Or a blank sheet of paper.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The universe is ruled by chance and indifference



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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: red-star-par  
Date:   Thu 29 Jun 21:24

Quote:

parsfan, Thu 29 Jun 20:48

Quote:

The One Who Knocks, Thu 29 Jun 20:05

And yet, Wotsit, for that misdemeanour all charges were dropped but if Sammer were to walk down main street Moscow with a placard saying `No War ` he`d be whisked away.


Or a blank sheet of paper.


Yep, I don`t think the UK can take the moral high ground about the right to protest. Anyone with anything to say after the queen died or on coronation day was arrested before they even brought out their placards
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Thu 29 Jun 22:04

Parsfans’s suggestion that Putin could have helped support the Minsk Accords by withdrawing Russian forces from Donbas does not survive contact with reality. Poroshenko, Merkel and Macron have all admitted that the Minsk Accords were never intended to be fully implemented, but were a stalling device to build up Ukrainian militarily. Had the Wagner Group been withdrawn then the local militia, opposed to what they justifiably viewed as an illegitimate government, would have been ethnically cleansed by Ukrainian armed forces and the Azov battalion. Then Putin really would have been removed from power.

NATO was spoiling for a fight as its reaction to the invasion in February 2022 demonstrated. Instead of calling for an emergency peace conference in the likes of Turkey or Hungary to push for an immediate ceasefire, it instead promised to remove Putin from power, smash the Russian economy and pour arms into Ukraine. Faced with this type of belligerence all Putin could do was choose the time and place of the fight. At present his army is holding NATO at bay around 100 miles from the Russian border and destroying NATO weaponry as fast as it is pouring in. Better to fight in your neighbour’s front garden than inside your own living room.

I don’t consider myself a Putin fan and his support for dissolving the USSR has come back to haunt him. His older KGB colleagues must have hammered home the danger that a militarised, united Germany would present on its western flank. It was obvious from the moment Soviet troops left East Germany that a vacuum would be created and if I, the same age as Putin, was saying this in 1991 then his error cannot be put down to youthful idealism. Putin lost a brother he never knew to starvation during the Leningrad siege, and a grandmother and two uncles to the Nazi invasion; it was a serious misjudgement, albeit he was not a politician at that point.

I did once see four people arrested for carrying a placard but that was in Edinburgh during an anti-war rally about 20 years ago. The offending placard had a photo of George Bush with a swastika drawn over his face, pretty mild compared to what I had seen in Madrid a month earlier. We marched up and surrounded St. Leonard’s Police Station about 400 strong to demand their release, facing about 100 police guarding the entrance. After people left to get home a token vigil stood sentry and the ‘terrorist supporters’ were released early next morning without charge.

sammer
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Thu 29 Jun 22:43

Ref: sammer
Thu 29 Jun 01:49

Ref paragraph one: sammer claims to know everything every one of us in the west reads and hears about Russia, i.e. only western propaganda. Actually I`ve read plenty of Russian, and pro-Russian sources, but he will carry on with his unsupportable claims.

Paragraph two: Censorship? I told you, sammer uses the `freedom of speech` red herring, to promote Freedom of Lies and Unsupportable Claims. It`s what Extreme Opinionated "commentators" such as him are all about.

The last bit: "ethnic cleansing."

Meaning: `Rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group.`

If Putin had made a simple voluntary offer of full Russian citizenship and rights, plus resettlement package - for those Russian-speakers who wished to move out of a country that he`s currently pulverising - that would not be ethnic cleansing.

I wonder how sammer got the idea that my suggestion of Russians, or Russian-speakers, moving from Ukraine to Russia would involve force or intimidation?

Oh I see - Putin could never make a simple offer of voluntary resettlement - treating those Russian speakers properly, giving land, money etc. - it would have to involve force and treachery. Of course, I was forgetting Putin`s track record in ethnic cleansing (e.g. re. Chechins, Ingush, and Ukrainians who have been forcibly moved to Russia during this war.) Maybe that`s what prompted sammer`s `ethnic cleansing` rant.

As I posted:

"Why didn`t Putin invite the Donbas Russians to move to Russia? That would have solved that one. But then he wouldn`t have been able to use it as a false pretext for invasion and land-grab."

It`s nothing to do with ethnic cleansing, but, as ever, sammer had to make up something.





Post Edited (Fri 30 Jun 01:22)
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Fri 30 Jun 02:26

What would you say of someone who:

a) believes Putin has done nothing wrong in invading Ukraine?

b) argues that it`s all the fault of the west?

c) steadfastly argues that Putin had no option but to invade?

I`d say that`s like having a Falkirk fan on the football forum, constantly posting scurrilous accusations about DAFC, and raving about Falkirk all the time.

Would that be allowed? If not, why not?



Post Edited (Fri 30 Jun 08:13)
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Fri 30 Jun 07:47

Ref sammer, Thu 29 Jun 22:04

"Poroshenko, Merkel and Macron have all admitted that the Minsk Accords were never intended to be fully implemented, but were a stalling device to build up Ukrainian militarily."

Even if it was right, (to which sammer might lend credibility if he was to provide definite sources. None forthcoming? Oh, surprise surprise - more unattested claims from sammer`s big bag of Moscow wind.) - but EVEN if it was right - why would pro-Europeans want Ukraine to be built up militarily? Nothing to do with Russian threat of more land grabbing a la Crimea? Nothing to do with Putin`s hostile intentions towards Ukraine, i.e. intentions that have been PROVED correct by his INVASION? Nothing to do with Putin`s object of re-absorbing parts of the old Soviet Union?

"ethnically cleansed by Ukrainian armed forces and the Azov battalion."

What sammer couldn`t bring himself to say there was that Ukrainian forces would resist attacks from Russian paramilitaries and regular Russian forces in Donbas to retain their OWN land. He calls it "ethnic cleansing" instead.

etc etc (apply similar scrutiny to every argument sammer posts and judge for yourself which has got more holes in it - a sammer argument, or Rab C. Nesbitt`s simmet.)



Post Edited (Fri 30 Jun 12:15)
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Fri 30 Jun 12:01

Ref: you know who

"NATO was spoiling for a fight as its reaction to the invasion in February 2022 demonstrated. Instead of calling for an emergency peace conference in the likes of Turkey or Hungary to push for an immediate ceasefire, it instead promised to remove Putin from power, smash the Russian economy and pour arms into Ukraine. Faced with this type of belligerence all Putin could do was choose the time and place of the fight.... (blah-dy blah)... Better to fight in your neighbour’s front garden than inside your own living room."

--------------------

Oh yes, as you usually do when Russia invades - you send an email to sammer, telling him what you`re going to do, then you send a message to the invaders, saying "Please stop being naughty!" And then the invader is full of remorse and apologises and goes back to his computer games. That is the correct way to behave, because that`s all it would take, just a bit of common decency. All they had to do was say "Please."

"Better to fight in your neighbour`s front garden than inside your own living room."

That`s no way for grown men to behave when playing Subbuteo. It`s only a game for Chis-sake.



Post Edited (Fri 30 Jun 12:17)
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: parsfan  
Date:   Fri 30 Jun 12:36

Quote:

onandupthepars, Fri 30 Jun 02:26

What would you say of someone who:

a) believes Putin has done nothing wrong in invading Ukraine?

b) argues that it`s all the fault of the west?

c) steadfastly argues that Putin had no option but to invade?

I`d say that`s like having a Falkirk fan on the football forum, constantly posting scurrilous accusations about DAFC, and raving about Falkirk all the time.

Would that be allowed? If not, why not?



I`d say they`re entitled to their opinion.

That freedom of speech is one of the principles implicit in supporting Ukraine/opposing Putin`s Russia. It`s not just freedom to agree with prevailing opinion, despite various shameful exceptions (some of which have been mentioned recently).

There`s various supporters of different clubs who visit here. Most are welcome but some bams have been banned due to their behaviour. This is a Pars site first and foremost, not a Ukrainian, NATO or Russophobic one so there`s no prescriptive view on any particular subject.

They came for the Putin fan-boys
But I wasn`t a Putin fan-boy so I did nothing...


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The universe is ruled by chance and indifference



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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Fri 30 Jun 12:41

Quote:

parsfan, Fri 30 Jun 12:36

Quote:

onandupthepars, Fri 30 Jun 02:26

What would you say of someone who:

a) believes Putin has done nothing wrong in invading Ukraine?

b) argues that it`s all the fault of the west?

c) steadfastly argues that Putin had no option but to invade?

I`d say that`s like having a Falkirk fan on the football forum, constantly posting scurrilous accusations about DAFC, and raving about Falkirk all the time.

Would that be allowed? If not, why not?



I`d say they`re entitled to their opinion.

That freedom of speech is one of the principles implicit in supporting Ukraine/opposing Putin`s Russia. It`s not just freedom to agree with prevailing opinion, despite various shameful exceptions (some of which have been mentioned recently).

There`s various supporters of different clubs who visit here. Most are welcome but some bams have been banned due to their behaviour. This is a Pars site first and foremost, not a Ukrainian, NATO or Russophobic one so there`s no prescriptive view on any particular subject.

They came for the Putin fan-boys
But I wasn`t a Putin fan-boy so I did nothing...


Well said.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Fri 30 Jun 17:22

End of the day, if I was a UK citizen who had made a life in Moscow and wanted to stay there right now, and considering the authoritarian government, i`d be doing exactly the same (and keeping records of posts, should the fsb come knocking)
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Fri 30 Jun 21:10

OAUTP’s desire to close down debate is part of a trend that is spreading across mainstream Europe, something that was formerly the preserve of beleaguered Soviet states. As Orwell understood, those calling for banning and de-platforming often claim they are supporting freedom of speech, rather as a rope supports a hanged man. When they say ‘free speech’ they mean their own speech and no one else’s. So amidst text blocking and a curfew in Paris, the French authorities have authorised an anti-Iranian government protest tomorrow which some neo-cons from the USA and the UK will attend. The Koran can be burned in Sweden in keeping with the same principles, as can freezing the bank accounts of journalists reporting unfavourably from Ukraine. Even Farage seems to have fallen victim to this tactic. The logic is clear: if you can’t shoot down the message, shoot the messenger. The fascist parties propping up European governments, long hampered by a lack of political theory, can’t believe their luck.

OAUTP’s solution to the Donbas problem is a form of ‘voluntary repatriation’ proposed by the National Front in the 1970s. At least the NF were prepared to pay the repatriation costs and today even Suella Braverman agrees with that: OAUTP on the other hand thinks the designated host country should pick up the tab. On the fate of those who obstinately decide to stay in their country of birth, little is said. Racist songs along the lines of ‘The Famine’s over -You can go Home now’ or ‘Joe, Pick a Bale of Cotton’ might be the least of their worries.

Thanks for all concerned about my health but I’m a bit too old to fear overmuch for my safety. In February I was held at a Moscow airport for three hours and questioned politely by an FSB officer when returning from the UK (a hostile country). I had a pleasant chat with two Ukrainian girls in the same boat as myself. I assume that the FSB has access to all my emails and blog comments, as does GCHQ, although I doubt they bother to read them. But if they ask next time ‘Gde Piotr Grahnt?’ then I’ll know they are reading the DAFC.net site.

I’ll attach a photo from 20 years ago this week as a salutary reminder of Orwell’s metaphor about how the blowtorch of government propaganda can be turned on, or away from, the target. Back then, in the days of the Al-Qaeda scare, Putin’s suppression of Islamic militancy in places like Chechnya was heralded as the sign of a strong leader. Yet all of the accusations made against him since the invasion of Ukraine in 2022 could have been made then as well, as OAUTP has referred to in his previous post. Politics is the pursuance of tribal/national self-interest, as some Greek historian wrote around 500BC. All the rest is propaganda.



sammer
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: red-star-par  
Date:   Fri 30 Jun 23:08

That`s a disturbing photo alright. What a duo. One, an extremely evil person worthy of no respect whatsoever.... and the other ones Putin
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Sat 1 Jul 03:44

A neat joke Red Star but she had to do her duty. If you are head of a a feudal monarchy then that`s the rules. The Queen has shaken hands with more murderers than Albert Pierrepoint. She met Biden recently as well, to undermine my point.

History is often re-written. For example David Blunkett`s dog barked at Putin and he tells us (heroically breaking protocol) that the Queen made a cutting comment about animal instinct. Maybe. She was capable of that for sure, having met just about every Head of State on the planet in her lifetime and had to endure hours of interminable boredom.

A similar tailored account emerged long after she was ordered to entertain the Caesescus at a time when Communist Romania was seen as resistant to Soviet control. Apparently the Caesescus packed a suitcase full of royal silver salver to take back to Bucharest. Given what we know of Mrs. Caesescu it`s possibly true but then again the story only surfaced after they became non persons in the west.

sammer
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Sat 1 Jul 04:44

Did you mean to undermine your point or underline your point?

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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sat 1 Jul 22:25

We have seen how Freedom of Speech = Freedom of Lies. We saw it with Trump, we saw it with our ex PM, and we see it daily, worse and worse in media. And we`re seeing it on this forum. Freedom of Lies, in the name of Freedom of Speech. They have become synonymous. Not by accident, by design, by the work of liars.

What`s it these Freedom of Lies folk say - "I might not agree with what you say, but I will fight for your right to say it!"

A claim for the moral high ground if ever there was one.

So in fighting for "Freedom of Speech", you will fight FOR Putin, Trump, Johnson et al.

Make no mistake, Freedom of Lies is aimed at persuading people. Putin, Trump, Johnston... with ease, have persuaded hundreds of millions to their causes.

And that`s why I`m saying my piece not for Freedom of Speech, which has been perverted into Freedom of Lies. I`m saying it for Freedom of Truth.

By the way, I notice sammer did not reply on another thread after I showed his resounding endorsement of George Galloway`s assertion - that if you don`t agree with him, you are stupid, and you must not have any questions about who destroyed the Kakhovka dam, because if you do, you are stupid.

Sammer agreed with Galloway there, but Galloway is a liar. No-one is stupid for questioning who destroyed the dam, nor for doubting Galloway`s opinion.

And I don`t support Galloway or anyone else who uses Freedom of Speech as a cover for Freedom of Lies.



Post Edited (Sun 02 Jul 00:55)
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Sun 2 Jul 00:44

I often disagree with George Galloway, particualrly on Brexit and Scottish Independence. But I recognise where his argument is coming from.

If Galloway thinks those who disagree with him are stupid then he is stupid himself. I am much more generous and assume that those who disagree with me are protecting their vested economic or tribal interests, which they are fully entitled to do.

Anyone able to siphon out the difference between truth and lies, which OAUTP seems to have a talent for, is being wasted on this site. As a High Court judge he could dispense with the jury and apply the law in full confidence of his abilities. He might not even need advocates, given his sure nose for what is truth and what is lies. Which is in keeping with his authoritarian instincts I suspect.

sammer
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sun 2 Jul 02:50

A CLASSIC EXAMPLE OF METHODS USED BY SOMEONE WHO WORKS FOR FREEDOM OF LIES (FOL)

It’s called: when you find yourself in the ****, do a quick about turn, and move on. On a forum, remember, everything gets left behind so quickly, they’ll soon forget.

ref: sammer*

“For those who believe Russia was responsible for the attack on a dam which Ukrainian forces have been shelling intermittingly for several months, I think the best response came from George Galloway on Wednesday in his MOATS broadcast.”

ABOUT TURN!

ref: sammer**

"If Galloway thinks those who disagree with him are stupid then he is stupid himself. I am much more generous and assume that those who disagree with me are protecting their vested economic or tribal interests, which they are fully entitled to do."


What? Is sammer two people? A split personality? Or a typical FOL member. Notice how he makes out as if he never noticed Galloway had called anyone stupid:


Ref: George Galloway***

“If you were to be STUPID enough to believe that Russia blew up their own dam…If you were STUPID enough…If you are STUPID enough… then you are TRULY STUPID indeed, you may even be in ward 5 in Broadmoor… If you believe that Russia blew up the Kakhovka dam, THERE’S NO HOPE FOR YOU… I hope I have persuaded you that ONLY AN IDIOT could believe that the bombing of the dam was a Russian operation…”

---------------------------------------------------------

I don`t think I need comment on sammer`s third paragraph, at (Sun 2 Jul 00:44) above, except that I think he`s trying too hard there.

My tips – don’t be bamboozled by words or charisma. Let your enquiring mind do it’s stuff naturally. Take most things with a pinch of salt.


*(Fri 9 Jun 18: 07)
** (Sun 2 Jul 00:44)
*** https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7PY4-UFbyA



Post Edited (Sun 02 Jul 03:01)
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Sun 2 Jul 04:36

``My tips – don’t be bamboozled by words or charisma. Let your enquiring mind do it’s stuff naturally. Take most things with a pinch of salt.``

Excellent advice which I can but echo.

I don`t disagree with Galloway`s opinion on the dam, but I take issue with his accusations of stupidity. The people who believe the Russians were responsible are acting from their own self interest but that does not mean they are stupid. Galloway never had the advantage of a university education so is pretty much a self taught man, much to his credit. But he lacks the humility of anyone who has been exposed to classical thought and realises everything he says has been said already. And probably better.

When Zelensky eventually attempts to demolish the Zaparozhia nuclear plant, which his forces have been attacking for months, it is not an act of stupidity. It is not even stupid for people in Europe to believe that the Russians have done this to themselves. It is perfectly sensible for anyone to sign up to this narrative so long as they want the war in Ukraine to continue even if that means escalation.

sammer
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy  
Date:   Sun 2 Jul 15:06

The ironic thing about Sammer is that he appears to hate "Western Imperialism" but then is absolutely pro-Putin Imperialism.

Along with that goes the convenient ignorance of basic facts. The simple dismissal of a population removal from the Donbas is ironic considering that the Russians (under the guise of Soviets) removed the 180,000 Tatars from Crimea, pushed the Poles west into former German lands, Azerbaijanis to make way for Armenians and so on. The also sanctioned the expulsion of Germans from the Sudetenland and organised the population exchanges that took place between Slovakia and Hungary in the aftermath of the Second World War. There is many a precedent on the Russian side but I guess its a double standard when it comes to ethnic Russians being involved, eh?

The simple fact is that Ukrainian territory is largely agricultural in the North and West and more reliant on Ports and Heavy Industry in the East and South. Funnily enough these are largely the same lines between Ukrainian speakers in the North and West and Russian speakers in the East and South. Remember though, that only 17% of the pre-war Ukrainian population are actually ethnic Russians while 31% in total counted Russian as their first language, the discrepancy being due to the Brezhnev doctrines. Putin`s "Nova Rossiya" was based on the idea of turning a rump Ukraine into a largely agrarian state which would take a considerably longer time to develop economically and thus force them closer to Russia. Prior to the war, he had been using artificially lowered gas prices to maintain a stranglehold on the Ukrainian economy which was particularly effective when the pro-Russian parties held power.

As for the dam, from what I gather, now that water levels have receded the foundations have been revealed which conclusively showed that high explosive was used to blow it up from the inside. Put on top of that the seismic readings and the cause of the destruction is in little doubt.

So Sammer, if you think that artillery shelling could destroy a structure of the magnitude of the Nova Kakhovka dam then you need to do a wee bit of reading on weaponry and civil engineering. You referenced the Dam busters before, but I would advise you go and have a wee read on how the bouncing bomb actually worked and the theory behind it. A shell on the surface would do virtually hee haw to the dam and any landing in the water would reach a dramatically lower velocity within a few meters of striking the surface of the water - basic physics relating to particle density of matter.

From what I gather too, the Russians have been made very aware within diplomatic circles by US and EU diplomats that any radiation leak from the Nuclear station (which would blow Westward) would be considered an attack on NATO and trigger Article 5. If that happens, then US, UK, French and German airpower (among others) would make rather light work of Russian assets in Ukraine leaving the Ukrainians to "mop up".



Post Edited (Sun 02 Jul 15:13)
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Mon 3 Jul 17:57

Hi Hurricane Jimmy,

I just wanted you to know that I have been reading your posts, and I appreciate your efforts.

I wanted to encourage you, because it`s clear that you don`t want to submit to lies and deception any more than I do.

Well done.

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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Mon 3 Jul 20:18

Here’s some more lies and deception, this time from the ubiquitous Douglas MacGregor, former US colonel. He uses his background as a military man and military historian to expound on present day politics, economics and military developments inside present day Ukraine.

MacGregor still retains contacts within both the NATO and Russian military and he goes on to paint a very bleak picture for Ukraine. He believes that NATO enthusiasm for the conflict was founded upon two false premises and that NATO may not survive in the longer term. Since I voiced this opinion back in February 2022 I might be guilty of confirmation bias, but all critiques are welcome.

https://youtu.be/c6ehKpLWMNU

sammer
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy  
Date:   Tue 4 Jul 16:01

OAUTP - Thanks for the very kind words!

Honestly, I`ve just always been interested in history, politics, economics and current events (despite coming from a Science, IT and military background) so I like to read and watch documentaries and so on. Germany and Russia were always the countries that interested me and in more recent years Asia and particularly China and India have been getting my interest as well. I just like having a chat about all of these things.

I`ve been quite glued to the events surrounding the Ukraine war and I had been doing courses at my local University in Sweden on the Central and Eastern Europe at the time that things kicked off.

Personally, I find it quite alarming how prevalent Russian and Chinese mis-information is in the public sphere in Europe and I think that democratic governments need to take a harder line on it. It`s also quite funny when you get pro-Putin and pro-Xi shills who have very little idea about the history of the countries and the intricacies of different issues. Either that or they just ignore them, which is quite apparent on this thread.

I also watch a number of anti-Z Russians and anti-CCP China enthusiasts on YouTube who have lived in the country and speak the local language and it`s fascinating to learn about these things.

A few I like are:
(i) China - China Uncensored, SerpentZA, LaoWhy86, China Uncle Mikey
(ii) Russia - The Russian Dude, NFKRZ, 1420 by Daniil Orain

Meduza and the Moscow times are also very good sources of Russian news, written by Russians in exile in places like Tbilisi and Riga.

If you are interested then do take a wee look at those! :)

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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Tue 4 Jul 17:07

Thanks for that Hurricane Jimmy.

Excellent references, I`ll have a look at them.

Quote, from HJ:

"I find it quite alarming how prevalent Russian and Chinese mis-information is in the public sphere in Europe and I think that democratic governments need to take a harder line on it."

I think a start could be made from a grassroots approach, instead of top down legislation or regulation. For example, here we are on what I`d call a grassroots forum. At the moment, posters can post absolutely anything. Except if the adjudicator(s) decide to ban someone for offensive remarks?

Would it not be possible, to some extent at least, to hold to account posters of mis-information or blatant lies, in the same way.

For instance, sammer claims Putin had no choice but to invade Ukraine. I say it`s a lie. Putin had choices. (Perhaps the most obvious one being he could have refused to do it.)

If the adjudicators agree that he had choices, could they not ask sammer to retract that claim?

It doesn`t have to be a big argument about Freedom of Speech, etc, etc. Just, when such blatant lying occurs on this forum, the poster could be held to account, by either having to make a retraction or receive a ban.

Couldn`t posters of misinformation and lies be made accountable in that way? No system is perfect, but would it not be an improvement on zero-accountability?

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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Tue 4 Jul 18:11

For instance, sammer claims Putin had no choice but to invade Ukraine. I say it`s a lie.

I`d describe that as rhetoric, not a lie.

The problem is that others may see what he wrote and take it as fact because, although I don`t get the impression that Sammer often seeks to present his opinion and observations as being factual, it is presented very robustly and can therefore seem that way to those less familiar with the conventions of political speech.

As such, as I see it, the problem is not Sammer`s speech, the problem is with an education system which doesn`t teach people how to properly parse it for what it is.

It`s just easier to encourage a culture which tries to stop people we don`t agree with from speaking I suppose.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Tue 4 Jul 22:20

Ref: Wotsit
Tue 4 Jul 18:11

Thank you for responding.

You put it that sammer is not claiming it is a fact?

OK, why not ask sammer - is he claiming it is true, i.e. a fact, that Putin had no choice but to invade Ukraine?



Quote from Wotsit:

"It`s just easier to encourage a culture which tries to stop people we don`t agree with from speaking I suppose."


You say it`s easier to encourage a culture which tries to stop people we don`t agree with from speaking, than teaching them to parse properly.

I`m interested to know how being able to parse properly would solve the problem of misinformation and lies, on this forum, or in the culture you refer to.

And, can there be no place for accountability as well?

I don`t see sammer`s posts as rhetoric. Some bits, not all.

Quote from Wotsit:

"I don`t get the impression that Sammer often seeks to present his opinion and observations as being factual..."

And again, why not ask sammer: does he "often seek to present his opinion and observations as being factual"?



Post Edited (Wed 05 Jul 20:48)
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Tue 4 Jul 22:45

Onandup, do you think that what Sammer says is factually untrue and if so why do you think you have ability and intelligence to discern such a notion and others don`t?
I know that Sammer, in my opinion, mostly spouts a load of fantastical nonsense but I know that because I am able to read his input. Sammer`s views are vigorously and logically countered on here by a number of posters so it`s not as if anyone ,that I can tell, is being swayed by him repeating the Kremlin line.

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Tue 4 Jul 23:08

The views I put forward on this website regarding UkraIne are hardly unusual. They are well and better represented by military and political commentators within the youtube Anglosphere. I gave a link to Douglas MacGregor in my last post and welcomed comment, but none has come so far. I think MacGregor has a military background comparable to HJ but I may be wrong. The Swedish military remains undefeated after 200 years so cannot be messed with. Mind you, they have not fought a battle for 200 years which might explain that fine record. And they dropped their swords when the Nazis invaded and sold to both sides, as Churchill put it. So their stomach for a fight has to be questioned at least.

What is more important is the desire of OAUTP and HJ to limit the debate on Ukraine. In this they are fully in line with the Sunak/Starmer alliance which tucks in behind USA foreign policy and has denied a parliamentary debate on the issue. In the mother of parliaments.

The warmongers are calling for de-platforming and cancellation every other day, even on this site! Of course it will be a better day for OAUTP, SIF and HJ when I am debarred from this site and they can regurgitate their MOD news briefings leaked through sympathetic media such as Moscow Times and the Daily Telegraph. Then they will be uncontested. Champions of the world, until reality takes hold.

As Louis MacNeice wrote in 1938:
The glass is falling hour by hour (meaning the barometer)
The glass will fall forever
But if you break the bloody glass
You won’t hold up the weather.

Silencing me might make some more comfortable but will not change reality. Reality is always spoken in the present tense: not the future tense.

sammer
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Wed 5 Jul 00:19

Ref: sammer`s latest rant

Now - does anyone think sammer is not claiming that what he says is true? Is he really, as Wotsit says, [not seeking] "to present his opinion and observations as being factual"? (with some rhetoric and quotations thrown in?)

Notice sammer wouldn`t answer the direct questions, but instead comes out with a load of book-stuff. For some time I`ve noticed he is extremely influenced by what he has read. He doesn`t really have much opinion of his own, all he can do is mash bits and pieces together, purely because he thinks it`ll impress. He`s unable to put together a simple effective statement of his own.

And he never refers to what is happening in Ukraine, I mean the suffering of the Ukrainian people, their defenders, and the Russian troops there, it`s all very abstract, as if he is so obsessed with his books and sources that he is not aware of the horrors that are taking place in Ukraine.

He has been accused of a particular lie, and what does he do? He tries to associate me with anyone that suits his cause.

I can assure you my views have nothing to do with any of the people or sources sammer links me with.

Quote:

"The warmongers are calling for de-platforming and cancellation every other day, even on this site! Of course it will be a better day for OAUTP, SIF and HJ when I am debarred from this site and they can regurgitate their MOD news briefings leaked through sympathetic media such as Moscow Times and the Daily Telegraph. Then they will be uncontested. Champions of the world, until reality takes hold."

What a fine grip on reality he has. Only just what he is gripping is anybody`s guess.

Quote:

"Silencing me might make some more comfortable but will not change reality. Reality is always spoken in the present tense: not the future tense."

Oh is that another sammer "truth"?

How about this: barring some catastrophe that prevents it, the Pars will be playing in the Championship this coming season. There - a bit of future tense reality for you.



.



Post Edited (Wed 05 Jul 00:27)
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Wed 5 Jul 02:47

Sammer`s view of Russia is like sammer`s view of the Pars; it is firmly stuck in the 1960s.

Though he vigorously defends him, the Russia sammer espouses is certainly not the oligarchic capitalism of Vladimir Putin but the Marxist utopian socialism of Khrushchev or perhaps the stagnant centrally-planned economy of Brezhnev that came crashing down in Gorbachev`s reforms.

His views express the one-dimensional nationalism of Pravda and Isvestia in their prime. These newspaper titles translate as The Truth and The News. With no hint of irony, Russians proclaimed that The Truth had no news and The News had no truth.

Sammer continues to operate under the pretext that communism will return to Russia and the new Soviet Union will arise out of the ashes of Ukraine. Who are we to disavow him of this fantasy?

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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Wed 5 Jul 18:32

I’m certainly guilt of being influenced by what I read; there wouldn’t be much point reading otherwise. Ozpar overstates the case against me a little but in essence he is correct: I have seen no social or economic progress under the neo-conservative ‘trickle down’ economics that have held sway for the past 40 years. It seems I’m not alone. Across Europe people my grandchildren’s ages -who are now voters - accuse baby boomers like me of having had an easier life. It’s the same here in Moscow by the way as young people, who obviously never read Pravda in the time of Krushchev, ask their elders, ‘Why did you throw out the baby with the bathwater?’ If I held the fantasy of a revived Communist USSR then I could do little harm; far less than those who hold to the fantasy of Ukraine driving Russian troops back to the 2014 borders.

The points made by Douglas MacGregor, amongst other commentators, remain on the table. He states that NATO support for Ukraine was founded on the premise that the Russian economy would collapse if it waged war and lead to regime change inside the Kremlin. Neither has happened so Ukraine has been exposed as a proxy in a war it cannot win due to its disadvantage in manpower and munitions. NATO in his view is not capable industrially of providing weaponry on the scale required to force a Russian retreat, nor is there any appetite amongst most European countries for sending in NATO forces (officially) on the ground. Even were that to happen, MacGregor doubts that NATO has the capacity to effectively fight a land war in Europe given that its previous experience has been in asymmetrical conflicts.

Since no one on here offered suggestions about alternatives to Putin sending in troops I looked around and discovered this, from over a year ago, printed in a Counterpunch, a US magazine that considers itself to be radical and anti-war. It offers 30 alternatives but when I got to number 2- assisted repatriation- a red flag went up. Gandhism and naivety makes up most of the advice, which also extends to Ukraine. I’ll give a flavour of it.


Russia could have:
1. Continued mocking the daily predictions of an invasion and created worldwide hilarity, rather than invading and making the predictions simply off by a matter of days.
2. Continued evacuating people from Eastern Ukraine who felt threatened by the Ukrainian government, military, and Nazi thugs.
3. Offered evacuees more than $29 to survive on; offered them in fact houses, jobs, and guaranteed income. (Remember, we’re talking about alternatives to militarism, so money is no object and no extravagant expense will ever be more than a drop in the bucket of war spending.)
4. Made a motion for a vote in the UN Security Council to democratize the body and abolish the veto.
5. Asked the UN to oversee a new vote in Crimea on whether to rejoin Russia.
6. Joined the International Criminal Court.
7. Asked the ICC to investigate crimes in Donbas.
8. Sent in

sammer
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Wed 5 Jul 18:35

8. Sent into Donbas many thousands of unarmed civilian protectors.
9. Sent into Donbas the world’s best trainers in nonviolent civil resistance.
10. Funded educational programs across the world on the value of cultural diversity in friendships and communities, and the abysmal failures of racism, nationalism, and Nazism.

Ukrainians could do a great many things, a lot of which they are in fact, in a limited and unorganized and underreported way, doing:

1. Change the street signs.
2. Block the roads with materials.
3. Block the roads with people.
4. Put up billboards.
5. Talk to Russian troops.
6. Celebrate Russian peace activists.
7. Protest both Russian warmaking and Ukrainian warmaking.
8. Demand serious and independent negotiating with Russia by the Ukrainian government — independent of U.S. and NATO dictates, and independent of Ukrainian right-wing threats.
9. Publicly demonstrate for No Russia, No NATO, No War.

sammer
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Thu 6 Jul 12:37

I get it now. Putin`s not to blame! It`s the military who, being dimwits, misinterpreted him.

When he said, Invade! Kill everybody! Turn it all to rubble! he didn`t mean it. You`d have to be completely stupid to think he meant it. No! PUTIN IS A POLITICIAN!

Obviously, as Wotsit kindly enlightened us - he uses "conventions of political speech."* It is an elitist language only politicians and the likes of Wotsit can understand! The meanings of the words are completely different to standard English!

When Putin gave the order to invade, what he meant was - Send Love and Kisses to all Ukrainians!

Poor Putin - see what he`s up against? Thicko westerners and his own thicko military - they just (DO) understand plain English!


*ref: Wotsit Tue 4 Jul 18:11



Post Edited (Thu 06 Jul 12:57)
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Thu 6 Jul 14:05

When sammer posted*:

"Since no one on here offered suggestions about alternatives to Putin sending in troops"

Is that statement correct?

I refer to my own post (Tue 4 Jul 17:07:)

“sammer claims Putin had no choice but to invade Ukraine. I say it`s a lie. Putin had choices. (Perhaps the most obvious one being he could have refused to do it.)”

It’s a wonder he never came up with that one himself.

Has sammer got a blind spot for the obvious? I doubt it. More likely it was just too do-able, too real.


I wonder why the only suggestions he gave of what Russians could do were ones made by a U.S. magazine, which he pours scorn on.

Why did he not make any suggestions of his own about what Russians could do – such as, pretty much what he suggests Ukrainians can do, i.e. lie down and allow their enemies to p*** on them?




*Wed 5 Jul 18:35



Post Edited (Thu 06 Jul 14:14)
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy  
Date:   Fri 7 Jul 12:08

Sammer, you really are talking absolute nonsense on several counts.

As other have said, there were several suggestions regarding what Putin could have done. You simply ignored them and tried to peddle your own ideological narrative.

I do not seek to deplatform you or anything like this, but I will counter you on any false claims that you make and these are rather...plentiful. As others have stated, you blatantly ignore established facts and spout some ideological nonsense from an obscure book or other source. Funnily enough, this is a very similar tactic that you see used when you debate Christian and Islamic Extremists and also White Supremecists, however that is another topic.

If we`re talking about the reality of the current situation, the Russians have now placed explosives on the roof of reactors 3 & 4 at the Nuclear Power Station, likely as an attempt to blow the roof in an attempt to make it appear as if the Ukrainians have shelled the plant. Yet another attempt at a false flag operation. Of course you`ll claim this is wrong.

It has been conclusively proven that Russian forces were responsible for destroying the Nova Kokhovka Dam. Did you actually do a bit of revision on your weaponry and civil engineering?

The current offensive will play out as we`ve seen the others so far. The Russian will appear to hold out for a good while and the Ukrainians will gradually destroy the logistics and then the Russian backs will break in a certain area and there will be a quick move forward very suddenly. There will be no revelation of where they will strike until its actually happened. Considering that the Ukrainians are still to commit 70% of their accumulated forces then I wouldn`t bet against the Ukrainians. Funnily enough, the Ukrainian main battlefield General is also a Russian-born, Russian-speaking and Russian-trained general. And I certainly wouldn`t bet on him striking again:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleksandr_Syrskyi

Of course though, in your own wee Moscow-Peterburg bubble, you`ll claim to read both Western and Russian sources and reject everything reported in verified sources and taking everything in pro-Putin sources at face value. Go figure...

Who are you going to quote now? A Socialist revolutionary from the CAR who has seen the glorious Wagner group liberate his "imperially oppressed" land to "disprove" me on some obscure ideological platitude?

Laughable min!

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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Fri 7 Jul 17:02

The situation looks very different to those not huddling underneath NATO’s rather leaky umbrella. Countries not directly involved in Ukraine- which is most of the world- are far from convinced by ‘conclusive proof’ that emanates from Ukrainian intelligence. They question why Russia would blow up a dam it had been defending from Ukrainian shelling, effectively doing the enemy’s work for them. They ask the same question regarding the Zaphorizhia nuclear plant which has also been shelled regularly by Ukrainian artillery. Why would Russia blow up a plant it has been defending, releasing possible contamination into an area it controls? Why have the IAEA stated, as of yesterday, they see no evidence of explosives attached to the roof of the plant as stated by Ukraine intelligence, something confirmed by satellite images?

If Zelensky truly believes he can retrieve through military action all of the territory lost to Russia then his only hope is for NATO forces on the ground. He needs a ‘Pearl Harbour’ moment to rally NATO support and has tried this with a missile which landed in Poland (it turned out to be Ukrainian), the Kakhovka dam and his last hope is probably the Zaphorizhia nuclear plant. The long anticipated Ukrainian ‘counter offensive’ is moving at glacial speed: far from breaching Russian positions they are having trouble actually reaching them. According to NATO this unexpected delay is due to surprisingly strong Russian fortifications and, even more surprisingly, the failure of Russians troops to flee in panic. Which rather explains NATO’s lack of military success over the years and the reason why nobody is keen to take on Stoltenberg’s gig as Secretary General.
The Vilnius meeting of NATO starting Tuesday is going to be a sombre affair. There will be the usual talk of game changer weaponry, the fact that NATO has never been stronger, while they will sit politely and allow Zelensky (not a member of NATO) to harangue them for being miserly with weaponry. Like any addict, Zelensky is only ever one fix away from rhapsody. Preferred tense: the future conditional.

sammer
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Fri 7 Jul 20:20

Summarising - Everyone apart from Russia is wrong and only Russia reports the truth.
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Sat 8 Jul 00:34

Not quite. Try western military commentators who have worked within NATO. Try former CIA operatives who say similar. Try a series of western diplomats who actually lived and worked in Moscow. Try even cold warriors like the mass murderer Kissinger, and the they will tell a similar story. This a doomed NATO mission. Europe will pay the cost for this, not Russia nor the USA.

That`s before you open up your VPN and start browsing China, India, Iran, Indonesia or Argentina or Brazil. The dollar is dying, slowly of course, and since it can be printed irrespective of any underlying reserves, it is a fight to the death and every one on this site, including me, will lose from its gradual demise.

Europe has backed the wrong horse and the political fallout may be explosive. The French military has already threatened to take control over the government and the situation in Germany is equally fragile given the rise of right wing nationalist parties. The French police have openly voiced their desire to smash opposition, especially that which is Muslim based. Le Pen sits, says little , and licks her lips. The French had a coup in 1958 and they can have another one pretty soon. In GB the situation is more stable given that a right wing government already holds power, and has a track record of hammering down on street protest. So the military in UK is little needed apart from rounding up immigrants and left wing activists, of whom there are few. Feudalism has its advantages in terms of social control.

So Germany is the key. If, and when, Schlolz goes the whole Eurocratic gravy train will come down with him. As the grandson of a former Nazi, as is Van der Leyen, it will rough justice of a kind.

sammer
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy  
Date:   Sat 8 Jul 02:07

Sammer, once again you talk absolute nonsense. The IAEA has been requesting access to the Zaporizhzhia plant to inspect the roofs of reactors 3 & 4 and have been denied access b the occupying Russian forces. This was reported on July 7th by both Reuters and Al Jazeera who are both fairly reliable:
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/7/6/un-wants-more-access-to-ukraine-nuclear-plant-amid-sabotage-warnings

On that count...try again!

As for referring to Scholz and Van Der Leyen as the Grandchildren of Nazis...it absolutely reeks of desperation and is genuinely pathetic. Honestly....just grow up!

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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: Andrew283  
Date:   Sat 8 Jul 03:42

I`ve never once needed to open a VPN to browse foreign media outwith go-locking from their side.

Stop this love in with your bald, mass murdering fraud
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 Re: Wagner Group take Russian City of Rostov
Topic Originator: P  
Date:   Sat 8 Jul 07:39

Quote:

sammer, Sat 8 Jul 00:34

Not quite…..Yadeyadeya slavering pile of nonsense.


You sound like a baddy doing a monologue in a really bad straight to streaming (that’s like video to you) action movie.

I particularly like your ranting fantasies about other countries politics that I suspect you know jack about while doing your very best Benny Hill salute to an authoritarian imperialist 😂

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