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 What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Wed 12 Dec 17:59

Has stuff always existed? Or was there once absolutely nothing?


Richie and I have been discussing a few things on the thread “should life mean life?” We got onto quite different subjects.

And a recurring problem from both our perspectives is the origin of existence. Was there a time when nothing at all existed? (except, religious people would say, God?)


I thought I had seen a TV programme which suggested it’s a natural phenomenon that particles just spontaneously appear out of nowhere in a vacuum. Usually they quickly disappear, but it was suggested that sometimes they stay and the accumulation of the surplus may account for all the matter that now exits. (That's what I thought was said.) I looked it up:

Can particles appear from nowhere?


I found lots of answers I don’t understand. This is the simplest one, which I can just about grasp.

<<<I am not a physicist so this is just what I understand of it as a lay person. The subatomic world operates in ways that are not intuitive to our experience of the 3-dimensional world of time, space, causality, states of matter and so on.

So when the world of infinitely small or infinitely large is described as being 'weird', it is only weird to our limited capacity to grasp it intellectually or experientially. To emphasise, the problem is our limited scope for comprehension, not the universe itself. Here is a more relatable example: we experience visible light and all the colors it is made of through our senses. But we also know that visible light is just a tiny fraction of that great spectrum that we call electro magnetic radiation. The range beyond the ultraviolet and below infrared is known to us only indirectly through their effect (radio waves for instance).

So when Stephen Hawking talks of particles appearing from 'nowhere', it only seems that way to our experience and intellect. Space, time, matter, energy - all these things behave in ways that may be mathematically consistent, but not intellectually. The fact is, nowhere does not mean nothing in the literal sense - particles only 'seem' to pop in and out of existence out of 'nowhere'.>>>

(By Barak Shoshany, Graduate Student at Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics)




So, does it mean stuff always existed? Or was there once absolutely nothing?



Post Edited (Wed 12 Dec 18:26)
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Wed 12 Dec 18:16

Probably good to recognise that it's not science v religion.Both sides are observing the same data.Conclusions are where the drama starts.

I think you are talking about virtual particles and quantum physics.
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Wed 12 Dec 18:23

Yes, I've heard those terms. Am I asking questions that can't be answered simply? Is it that there's no concensus? Maybe because they're right at the cutting edge of current investigation and theory?



Post Edited (Wed 12 Dec 18:28)
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: ipswichpar  
Date:   Wed 12 Dec 19:22

Might help...https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgs_boson
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe  
Date:   Wed 12 Dec 20:17

Something can't come from nothing as there is literally no such thing as nothing.
Energy for example changes all the time.
A single raindrop evaporates into steam and the cycle continues because it always exists in one form or another.

The universe , could not come from nothing as something must have existed to create it in the first place so maybe time has no meaning in reality?

If you only turn up to moan then do it elsewhere
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: kelty_par  
Date:   Wed 12 Dec 20:31

There are quantum fluctuations where a particle and it's anti-particle can come out of seemingly nothing, then recombine again which annihilates both particles releasing energy. The idea is that the inherent energy in the universe makes these particles for a short period of time then the energy is returned so there is no net gain or loss. Since matter and energy are equivalent, you can create matter from energy and vice versa although tiny changes of mass create huge amounts of energy so to create matter you'd need huge amounts of energy to make it. One of the ongoing projects at CERN is to try and understand why our universe is dominated by matter rather than anti-matter. We currently think that for every million particles created at the time of the Big Bang (or whatever you think happened), a million and one matter particles were created. Of course it could be exactly equal and most of this anti-matter is in some other dimension we can't see, it may be the dark matter we can't see but seems to tie in with measured rotational velocities etc or it might just have disappeared somewhere.
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Wed 12 Dec 20:53

Ref: ipswichpar
Wed 12 Dec 19:22

<<<Might help...https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgs_boson>>>

Oho! that made me laugh. Funny - it's English but the effect on my brain is similar to Chinese:

"The Higgs field is a scalar field with two neutral and two electrically charged components that form a complex doublet of weak isospin SU(2) symmetry."

D'you understand it Ipswich, or were you just tryin' to get me tae nod off?


Ah! What's this? -

"The Higgs boson... does not explain the ultimate origin of the universe."

On clicking "origin of the universe" it led to:

"COSMOGONY is any model concerning the origin of either the cosmos or universe." Well at least we know what the subject is called.

OK. Let's have a read of this:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmogony



Post Edited (Wed 12 Dec 22:37)
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: ipswichpar  
Date:   Wed 12 Dec 20:59

I've got a Physics Masters which helps a wee bit on one of the aspects.

But I'm not religious so I'm useless when it comes to explaining richie's worldview.
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Wed 12 Dec 21:08

The article I hot-linked previously appears to say that Hawking claims there was nothing before the universe existed, i.e. something from nothing.

It refers to a link - "A Universe from nothing by Sean Carroll."

Interesting maybe. Worth a look.

BTW I'm impressed by your post Kelty - you seem to have a good grasp of some of this subject.
I'll just struggle on while the iron's hot...

http://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2012/04/28/a-universe-from-nothing/

It's quite a long article...



Post Edited (Wed 12 Dec 22:38)
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: JnrB  
Date:   Wed 12 Dec 21:19

My brain hurts.....

Do enjoy the the field of theoretical physics and cosmology, just can’t get my head around it.
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Wed 12 Dec 22:02

Right, I've read that Sean Carroll article. Putting it simply - it seems he believes quantum mechanics can explain how "nothing can evolve into" what we have today.

With these explanations there are two possibilities: either time is endless, or not.

Have I got that right, Ipswich?

As for what the explanations are, he doesn't give them - I suppose you'd need to understand quantum mechanics to follow them? Or could they be put in very simple terms?



Post Edited (Wed 12 Dec 22:39)
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Wed 12 Dec 23:39

My dictionary defines nothing as:

1.Not anything,not any being or existence,a word that denies the existence of anything.

2.Non existence.A state of annihilation.

Or AAPS explanation was equally good.
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Thu 13 Dec 01:07

What is the origin of matter?

I can see I got the title of this thread slightly wrong because I have read that matter came from energy. But what I was really interested to know was what was the origin of the universe? From the POV of science, it seems to be unknown and maybe even unknowable:


From the astronomy dept at the University of Cornell:

“We ... say that space and time both started at the Big Bang and therefore there was nothing before it.
We can speculate in meta-physics or in religion about what was before the Big Bang, but again, we cannot use science to tell anything about it as physics as we understand it breaks down at that point.”

(http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/about-us/101-the-universe/cosmology-and-the-big-bang/general-questions/585-what-was-there-before-the-big-bang-and-what-is-there-ou)

So that's good - no need to bother ourselves about that, eh JnrB?



Post Edited (Thu 13 Dec 01:14)
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: Rastapari  
Date:   Thu 13 Dec 07:58

Quote:

AdamAntsParsStripe, Wed 12 Dec 20:17

Something can't come from nothing as there is literally no such thing as nothing.
Energy for example changes all the time.
A single raindrop evaporates into steam and the cycle continues because it always exists in one form or another.

The universe , could not come from nothing as something must have existed to create it in the first place so maybe time has no meaning in reality?


Time is a construct,only exists when you apply it.

I Hope You're Ok Today....
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Thu 13 Dec 12:48

Mr Cornell university man is saying space-time happened from nothing?Wow.
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Thu 13 Dec 17:51

Would that be any weirder than a God who always existed? Or made himself out of nothing? And then made everything else out of nothing by magic?😂

It's all funny- peculiar whichever way you look at it.



Post Edited (Thu 13 Dec 17:54)
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: kelty_par  
Date:   Thu 13 Dec 20:11

Thanks onandupthepars, although being a Physics teacher I have no excuse for not knowing. It helped that I did my MPhys at Heriot-Watt rather than one of the more old fashioned universities - at the time a lot of them weren't really going near Quantum Mechanics, Optoelectronics and Superconducting materials etc at undergraduate level. I've also been fortunate enough to visit CERN (we were the last group to go into the tunnel before it was locked down and the LHC started running) and they obviously are trying to figure out some of this stuff themselves by creating a Quark-Gluon plasma that only existed a few seconds after the Big Bang itself, so by recreating this moment in time, they'll hopefully be in a better position to explain some of the processes a little better.
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: ipswichpar  
Date:   Thu 13 Dec 20:52

.

Post Edited (Thu 13 Dec 20:53)
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Thu 13 Dec 21:09

Ref: kelty_par
Thu 13 Dec 20:11

My goodness - not a bad life by the sound of it, KP. Especially if some of your pupils/students show a real interest and curiosity rather than just completing the syllabus for the sake of it. What level do you teach at?

Must be quite exciting for you to follow the latest investigations. I pick up some info in New Scientist and on TV. I find it quite fascinating - astrophysics, nuclear physics? (the wee stuff) and cosmogony, but I can only follow them on a sort of Brian Cox TV presentation level.

As for this thread - I'm quite OK in my mind about leaving the origin of the universe as an open question. I guess that's the position of most Physicists?
So we await the outcome of those Quark-Gluon plasma experiments with interest...



Post Edited (Thu 13 Dec 21:10)
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Thu 13 Dec 22:52

I don't think it would be weirder OAUTP,just unreasonable.Something from nothing without a cause/mind?Hmm.
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Fri 14 Dec 01:10

Ref: richie5401
Date: Thu 13 Dec 22:52

<<<Something from nothing without a cause/mind?>>>

Your chosen idea of eternal supermind (God) means extreme complexity of a kind that's far beyond our imagining would have had to exist without prior cause.

So - equally weird.

But at least the science view allows billions of years for the universe to grow in structure and complexity. With the "God" view it's a case of, "In the beginning", there WAS supercomplexity (God). And it/he made everything else from nothing.



Post Edited (Fri 14 Dec 01:25)
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Fri 14 Dec 01:23

Not only did he make everything from nothing, he made it just by saying - Let there be this, let there be that, let this happen, let that happen...

I find that unbelievable.



Post Edited (Fri 14 Dec 01:24)
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Fri 14 Dec 01:28

Dunno if it's"Weird" just beyond our scope of understanding.

It does more than allow billions of years it's dogma.
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Fri 14 Dec 01:30

Sorry Rich - if you're still about and in the mood for discussion - I've got to go to bed now - have to be up a wee bit early. Cheerio now.
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: kelty_par  
Date:   Fri 14 Dec 11:10

High school teacher onandupthepars, all the way from S1 to S6 Advanced Higher. Also so marking at Higher and Advanced Higher level so get to see and hear from a lot of quite bright students who go on to study one of the Sciences, Engineering or Medicine at uni. So it's quite nice although we obviously also have our fair share of younger ones who have no interest or "cannae dae it" or who just don't want to be in school at all. Some of the questions we get from students are quite thought provoking though - there's been many a period where we've went off on a mad tangent and had a good old debate going.
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: widtink  
Date:   Fri 14 Dec 11:17

Ah... But what is the origin of anti matter?
Didn't see that one coming did you!!!
I just wanted to be part of a thread that's way above my understanding really.
OK carry on brainy folk...
I'd like an answer to my question though.
Not that I'll understand it mind.
But give it a bash eh 🤔



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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: MikeyLeonard  
Date:   Fri 14 Dec 11:39

Quote:

widtink, Fri 14 Dec 11:17

Ah... But what is the origin of anti matter?
Didn't see that one coming did you!!!
I just wanted to be part of a thread that's way above my understanding really.
OK carry on brainy folk...
I'd like an answer to my question though.
Not that I'll understand it mind.
But give it a bash eh 🤔


Gaun yersel Scotty !
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Fri 14 Dec 12:51

According to the boffins Widders antimatter should have destroyed all the matter in the universe after the Big Bang.Yet here we are.
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Fri 14 Dec 13:08

The idea of a Creator such as God, and the Big Bang alternative, do share the same sense of something being created.

I think some of Eastern religious philosophies have the concept that existence has always existed, that ‘Isness’ is the natural condition. Creation is not required. They hold that the concepts of cause and effect, birth growth and death, which we see in our world or universe are simply too limiting to understand what is around us. By this way of thinking, the universe, as understood by the Big Bang theory, has not been expanding into nothingness for the last 13 billion years since space is not nothingness. And most of the universe is space after all. Maybe the clearest metaphor is of spreading colours on a blank page: the blank page has to exist for the colour to go on. There has always been something there.

Clearly I am no physicist, but Einstein amongst others did believe that science required thinking from outside the scientific disciplines to develop its ideas. Maybe there is a grasp of cosmology to be found in the Vedas, which predate our more recent monotheistic religions that have not always encouraged scientific study. The polytheistic ancient Greeks understood the concept of atoms, despite not having the scientific instruments to prove it.
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Fri 14 Dec 13:41

Most of the problems still revolve around "How do you get something from nothing/no one.From nothing you get nothing.
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: MikeyLeonard  
Date:   Fri 14 Dec 13:59

Then where did "god" come from ?
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: MikeyLeonard  
Date:   Fri 14 Dec 14:00

I get the feeling I really should have known better than to have asked that 😮
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Fri 14 Dec 14:05

Snigger.
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe  
Date:   Fri 14 Dec 14:52

Richie's point stands whether you believe in a God or not.
Even when we die, our energy must by definition remain in some form or another.
It can't go to nothing.

If you only turn up to moan then do it elsewhere
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Fri 14 Dec 15:31

There is no problem for you Richie, any more than there is for eastern mystics. You believe, I am pretty sure, that God has always existed and always will. The mystics believe the same, except they have cut out God as a middle man and just accept existence as eternal.


We live in a cause-effect scientific culture so it's not easy to absorb what, to most of us, sounds rather like faith. But as I suggested earlier that may say as much about the limitations of our thought as it does about the concept itself.
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Fri 14 Dec 16:00

I wouldn't say it's faith Sammer,more akin to reason.Regardless of what anyone's religious stance is,our intelligence tells us not only does nothing come from nothing but something comes from someone.

I'm pretty sure someone built my car,although i've never seen the plant or tech's that did it,it would be reasonable to assume it was assembled by an intelligence.
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Fri 14 Dec 18:11

Richie,

Before I head off to the pub, your point has already been challenged earlier on by another poster. You claim that nothing comes from nothing, then merely repeat your belief in God to get round the problem. You are having to create the concept of God, in order to get round the problem of creation. I think it's called circular logic.

Personally, I prefer the eastern mystics who don't need to invent a God, but make the same faith based claim about the concept of eternity as you do. BTW, you're not about to come up with that old chestnut of a metaphor about the chances of life evolving being the same as a gale going through a scrapyard and creating a car are you?
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Fri 14 Dec 18:21

Not exactly Sammer.I don't see claiming a cause/God/mind as a way to get round a problem.It's the most logical conclusion.

Think one was Fred Hoyle right?I wouldn't come up with any metaphor to describe chance.
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: kelty_par  
Date:   Fri 14 Dec 19:31

"Regardless of what anyone's religious stance is,our intelligence tells us not only does nothing come from nothing but something comes from someone."

Nah, I'm not having that. Something comes comes from someone is an arrogant assumption IMO. Something comes comes from something is a much better way of looking at things. Now before you jump up and down, that thing may be a person/god/omnipresent being but doesn't necessarily have to be. There are plenty of examples of fantastic structures and patterns that have been formed by nature and whether you think of the creation of the Earth, it would be hard pushed to say that a god or whatever has deliberately made the wind blow in certain directions for certain lengths or time (especially when man-made objects can influence these things) unless you were one of those believers who think a god or whatever is there at all times doing stuff for unspecified reasons (while letting other horrific things happen at the same time).
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Fri 14 Dec 23:05

The Old and New Testaments have a very poor record on cosmology. I have a 6 year old grandson who might sign up for some of it, but my 8 year old would just have a laugh. It’s, by the standards of modern scientific knowledge, little more than childish. The accounts given vary a great deal since the Bible was cobbled together over a long period of time, but the belief in planets revolving round earth is pretty much a constant. Wrong. The earth as a flat disc. Wrong. The sky as a constructed ceiling, coloured blue because of the waters held back by God above. Wrong.

So why did God, with his special covenant to the Jewish people, give them duff information? To test their faith perhaps. Or maybe the scribes misinterpreted his gnomic wisdom. A slip in the various translations over the years from Aramaic, through Hebrew to Greek and English? Or, as a last resort. maybe it was all allegorical and not to be taken literally.

Such are the explanations I have head over the years from those who accept the universe being 13 billion years old. There are others who do not accept this, creationists who dabble around in the fossil record, and for them the Bible is literal truth. Creationism contains its own circular logic, rather like the logic of God as creator.

Maybe Richie is correct in thinking scientist Fred Hoyle was the originator of the scrapyard metaphorical counter to evolution. There was a time when public life was well populated by Christian scientists, such as Darwin and Christian Socialists too. Galileo himself died a devout Catholic. Nowadays the only Christians I am aware of seem to be in banking or the deep south of the USA screaming for the death penalty, or prowling outside abortion clinics.
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Fri 14 Dec 23:49

KP-so you are saying it may be someone.Not an arrogant assumption at all then.The more immodest position is denying cause and effect.We certainly have an effect that is observable but not a cause?

Formed by nature?In what sense?I think weather patterns have much to do with the upheaval from the Flood than anything else.
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Sat 15 Dec 00:29

"A poor record on cosmology"Time,cause effect,space and matter all introduced in the first sentence.As starts go,that's not bad you have to concede.

I think you are quoting catholic teaching in the examples you gave rather than the Bible.

Examples of circular reasoning?

There are some who protest outside abortion clinics and many who think pre-meditated murder should require the life of the assailant and there are millions more who believe Christ's words said 2000years+ ago.
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sat 15 Dec 01:31

I've had a busy day but found myself at times thinking about this thread.

I was thinking whether we choose the science or religion explanation of a beginning, they both really ask us to believe in magic.

If science says existence came from nothing - that's magic. If religion says there's an eternal Supermind who made everything from nothing - that's magic.

So let's have a break and imagine there is no magic like that.

What's the alternative? The only one I can think of is that something has always existed. Not like planet earth or even like anything that exists now - but something always existed and it developed into what exists now.

When I logged on tonight I saw that Sammer has touched on that idea. ( Fri 14 Dec 13:08) I'm excited by some of the stuff I've read on this thread - some well-informed, and even the opinion and counter-opinion is almost amiable!

I can't help but be struck by the fact that if we stick with the idea that something always existed, there's some common ground there between science and religion, because religious folk already believe something always existed, they call it God.

I would call it existence, or nature (everything that has ever existed.) If we believe something has always existed, the rest is "easy." Then everything has developed from what was there. And the differences between science and religion would essentially be just differences of interpretation and detail - significant - but at least they would have a big piece of fundamental common ground in both believing in something eternal; science - existence; religion - God. One and the same but interpreted radically differently?

But is the idea that something always existed "oot the windae" as far as science is concerned? Scientifically-speaking, must everything have come from absolutely nothing, Kelty?



Post Edited (Sat 15 Dec 01:33)
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Sat 15 Dec 01:44

I suppose it depends on perspective OAUTP.If you are an eternal supermind it's not magic it's within the scope of your ability.From some scientists perspective it's a miracle,others it's silly,others it's unbelievable.
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: MikeyLeonard  
Date:   Sat 15 Dec 01:47

Quote:

richie5401, Fri 14 Dec 13:41

Most of the problems still revolve around "How do you get something from nothing/no one.From nothing you get nothing.


So Richie, where did "god" come from ? Did he create himself ?
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sat 15 Dec 02:00

Ref: richie5401
Sat 15 Dec 01:44

<<< If you are an eternal supermind it's not magic it's within the scope of your ability.>>>

Naw, it is magic - even for an eternal supermind to produce even a rabbit from no time or space, no energy or matter.

Oh well in for a penny.

OK I'll try and look at it from your side.

God himself is not of time,space, energy or matter? He's outside of existence?
(Or was - he must have been before he made everything.) Would that make him like thoughts ? Except that thoughts arise from something physical. So that's a problem - if God was not of time,space,energy or matter and was outside of existence, by what means did his thoughts arise?
(I'm not saying I'm right about those things, but are they correct?)



Post Edited (Sat 15 Dec 02:10)
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Sat 15 Dec 02:12

Naw Mikey.He is eternal.
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Sat 15 Dec 02:15

That's about right.OAUTP.He is not stuck inside his creation like we are.I'm not sure what point you are trying to make about thoughts.
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sat 15 Dec 02:19

And there again, he thinks doesn't he? He speaks. But if he is not of time, space, energy or matter, in what way(s) are we like him, being made in his image?
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sat 15 Dec 02:25

The point I was making Rich was that thoughts have to come from somewhere or something. If God is not of time, space, energy or matter. he is formless. That's a difficult concept for me to try and think of a being that it seems is only thought and sound (voice)? which come from no location, no time, no centre or dimension?
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sat 15 Dec 02:29

And again, if he's formless how are we made in his image? Image meaning visual? He has no image. Or does he? If so, what?
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sat 15 Dec 02:46

The way by which God thinks must be altogether different from the way by which we think. Our thoughts require energy. But if God's required energy then we'd be able to detect them by their electrical activity?

So effectively the idea of God thinking is more metaphor than fact?
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sat 15 Dec 03:17

No I don't think God could really be like thoughts. Thoughts could not really be outside of time, space, energy or matter.

Strangely the only thing I can think of that fits those conditions is non-existence.

God couldn't have been outside of existence. He must have been part of it. If he existed, he was what was there before the Big Bang. Seems obvious.

Wish I could make a connection between God, Big Bang, Universe and nature.

Well, what if "he" was the Big Bang, he is the universe and nature? That's why "he's" amoral.

That's my unifying theory!

No I haven't been on the wacky baccy. Just tired. Probably dreaming. Sleep-typing.😂



Post Edited (Sat 15 Dec 03:27)
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: kelty_par  
Date:   Sat 15 Dec 10:58

"KP-so you are saying it may be someone.Not an arrogant assumption at all then"

I said it could be someone, you said it had to be someone. Big difference. The first allows for other possibilities, the second doesn't. The first suggests we aren't special, the second suggests we are. Arrogant in the extreme.
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sat 15 Dec 11:24

"In the beginning there was nothingness, complete symmetry, and zero entropy. Then something happened to disrupt this complete harmony..."

(Explaining the spontaneous generation of existence from nothing: I think I follow it. Just for a taster, here's the fun bit -)




(It's a long article but best if I print it:)


<<< Did the universe come into existence or has something always existed? Can true nothingness really exist?

To answer your first question: did the universe come into existence? The answer is yes, and is supported by the Big Bang Theory.

The second part: or has something always existed? This assumes that something has always been in existence and always will be. But where did that something come from. Which is why the Singularity (or any idea which starts with a “given”) is a meaningless concept unless it can be explained where it came from. It’s the same problem with the God concept, where did God come from.

All starting materials imply meaningless tautologies in endless nonsensical types of circular logic unless their origins can be verified. Simply put, there is no such thing as Free Lunch, unless it can be explained - who paid for the free lunch.

And to extrapolate backwards in Time using the current laws of physics to explain the Big Bang, is referred to as “a priori” knowledge. Totally invalid as if to say, a universe is created by a thermodynamic equilibrium which supplied the energy to create the universe i.e., energy creates mass - without explaining where the energy came from. Or quantum foam popped into existence and created the universe because that’s what quantum foam does best. But without explaining where it came from, again meaningless.

Now if quantum foam popped into existence at the same time as anti-quantum foam, the equation would balance. But then where did the foam come from originally. Thus the need to further balance the equation with the concept of Nothingness. Or Nothingness = 0 = (+1) foam and a (-1) foam.

The third part: so now, let’s deal with the subject of Nothingness. Since it is impossible to imagine, never has been identified, and because it is nothing, then it doesn’t exist. Simple as that, at least in our rational minds.

But wait, there’s more to life than meets the eye as you will discover when you descend down the Rabbit Hole leading to the vast underground cavern of the unknown world of Nothingness.

Even the Christian religion assumes that Nothingness is valid, as in: “In the beginning there was Nothing, and then God said let there be light.” So at least Scripture almost got it right. But rather than photons, it would be more accurate for God to have said, “Let there be gravitons.”

Actually, gravitons were the first force created. See diagram below for an explanation of how gravity against repulsive gravity provided the energy or “bang” for the Big Bang.

So now to answer your question, “can nothingness really exist”, and yes it is possible that our universe came into existence due to spontaneous and random fluctuations of Nothingness where a (+) something came into existence at the expense of a (-) something over the vastness of time.

A simply syllogism can explain it:

If Nothingness = 0

And 0 = +1 and -1

Then a (+1) universe and a (-) universe can come from (0) or Nothingness.

Therefore the concept of Nothingness makes sense. But wait…., nothing is simply nothing and only qualifies as just nothing. So how can nothing be something?

But wait again….., if that something is balanced with an anti-something then the above equation is balanced.

But before proceeding any further, a definition of terminology is needed:

Nothingness - it must be assumed that this is how our universe arose, from simply just nothing.
Cosmos - this term is used to described the entirety of every universe and its anti-universe partner. And there could be billions of these (+/-) binary pairs throughout the Cosmos. And of course it must include the Nothingness that gives rise to these binary pairs.
(+/-) Binary Universe System -- This system is responsible for keeping the Cosmos in balance where for every universe created, an anti-universe must also be created at the same time. That way all the (+) universes and (-) universes will eventually = Nothingness which = 0. And which then gives rise to new binary pairs in an endless cycle of creation and annihilation. Thus no need for any gods or givens in this infinite and incredible Cosmos.
Cosmic Creation - and this involves the Double Entry Accounting System, where every “thing” that is created, it must be paid for by an anti ”thing”. And just like in accounting, for every credit, a debit must be recorded or the account won’t balance.
Spontaneity - just like in evolution of species where new organisms are created due to spontaneity and randomness, so too can a universe and its anti-universe partner appear spontaneously from out of nowhere, or Nothingness.
Asymmetry - the essential ingredient for the equation to move forward and prevent an annihilation of a something and its anti-something partner resulting in its disappearance. And this is also suggested in the theory of Supersymmetry in String Theory which is where there are Sparticles (super particles) that are similar to regular particles but very massive. That way there is enough difference/asymmetry that they won't annihilate each other. These have yet to be discovered but most likely could be found in Dark Matter.
Entropy - the type of natural disorganization found all through the Cosmos which is responsible for not only the asymmetry as mentioned, but the decay and death of everything that is created including the binary universe pairs that eventually must annihilate each other in order to maintain the balance of the Cosmos.
Anti-universe - this is just a term used to provide balance in the Cosmos (and used in place of Dark Matter and Dark Energy). Or for every something there must be an anti-something.
Finite versus Infinite - The Cosmos must be Infinite because of its nature of Nothingness. And Nothingness is simply that, no matter no energy, just a perfect place to give birth to a (+) universe and its (-) anti-universe partner, which are finite in nature.
A simple diagram may help to illustrate how our universe and its anti-universe partner (Dark Matter) separated from Nothingness as a simple wave/anti-wave pair.

And then in a PCR type multiplication process, went on to create graviton/anti-graviton pairs leading to gravity against repulsive which then lead to the Big Separation, which powered the Big Bang, and then that energy condensed to form Regular Matter (our universe) and Dark Matter (the anti-universe). And of course with a slight amount of asymmetry provided by entropy to prevent a relapse back into Nothingness.


So, in a nutshell, there it is. A simple explanation with no gods or givens needed. And as some would say, should stay in a nutshell along with the rest of the nutty nonsensical nuances of Nothingness.



In other words, matter and energy can neither be created or destroyed. But wait….., that law of physics falls into the category of the “givens”.

Again, where did the givens come from. Couldn’t the givens simply come from Nothingness at the expense of the anti-givens? That way everything is in balance and the concept of Nothingness is valid. >>>

(source: https://www.quora.com/Did-the-universe-come-into-existence-or-has-something-always-existed-Can-true-nothingness-really-exist)



Post Edited (Sat 15 Dec 11:53)
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sat 15 Dec 11:47

What I don't follow is, we live in a " + universe ".

There is a " minus universe" somewhere to balance it?

So that's what dark matter is.

Boy that's incredibly weird.

I never considered dark matter before. (I thought it was just collapsed stars or something, hence its huge gravity?)



Post Edited (Sat 15 Dec 11:48)
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sat 15 Dec 11:52

But what I wanted to know is - is there a scientific theory of "something always existed?" Or is it just not something science contemplates? I mean a non-starter? (Both ways) 😂
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Sat 15 Dec 12:45

KP-now you are misquoting me.I never said we are special.I said we are made in the image of God.That's a belief.It doesn't make anyone who has that belief arrogant.

I would argue anything lower than that view demotes us to animal status.
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Sat 15 Dec 12:52

Jeez min OAUTP,your heid must be hurting!

It still gives you the same problem.how does something(the universe and it's contents) come from nothing/no one.

If you contend there was nothing/no cause,that theme is linked to everything and chance becomes a creative force,which we know is impossible no matter how much time you attach.
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: MikeyLeonard  
Date:   Sat 15 Dec 13:03

Quote:


It still gives you the same problem.how does something(the universe and it's contents) come from nothing/no one.


But how come you claim "god" comes from something ?
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Sat 15 Dec 13:05

I haven't.My belief is God has always existed.Then decided to create.
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: MikeyLeonard  
Date:   Sat 15 Dec 13:28

But surely for "god" to exist means something came from nothing ?
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sat 15 Dec 13:29

I can see the problem Rich. What happened to disrupt "the harmony of nothingness, complete symmetry, zero entropy" ? A cause. A something already there?

It's why I still rather feel either way - God or science - we're asked to believe in magic.

The idea of something always existed appeals to me, because I think it needn't require an outside agent (God).

To me "always existed" feels like what's here - nature - existence.

I'm becoming a babbling eejit I know, but - in a way it seems self-evident. We are part of the everything that was always here? Yes I'm holding my hands up. I admit to being bonkers.

But I can't believe in the Biblical god and I find it - almost as unbelievable to accept the science idea of a beginning from zero entropy.

I wonder if I know diddly? 😂



Post Edited (Sat 15 Dec 13:31)
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Sat 15 Dec 13:46

Then you have the question as you said before Mikey"Who created God.

I dunno about diddly OAUTP,but if you don't slow down you might end up saying"Wibble"!
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: MikeyLeonard  
Date:   Sat 15 Dec 13:54

There's never a straight answer from you Richie. . . I knew I shouldn't have got involved. 😮
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Sat 15 Dec 13:57

lol.All i can say is God is not bound by space or time.
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sat 15 Dec 17:42

Ref: richie5401
Sat 15 Dec 13:46I

<<<dunno about diddly OAUTP,but if you don't slow down you might end up saying"Wibble"!>>>

"Slow down" Thanks Rich - I needed that.

Och, I wish them Physicists would come back in, I like tae have some nitty-gritty tae chew on. I'll just have to go an' have ma tuna pasta bake instead. Thank goodness for simple stuff like frozen meals and microwave ovens.



Post Edited (Sat 15 Dec 21:56)
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Sat 15 Dec 21:58

I notice that Richie has decided not to respond to my commentary on the nonsense that is the Judeo-Christian cosmology as enshrined in what we call the Bible. There is a good reason for this, for if God has been fallible over cosmology then obviously his authority over matters such as morality is seriously impaired.


OneandupPars, I have enjoyed your contributions and if confusion is your final position then you are no worse off than great minds like Einstein; a very respectable position to adopt.

Richie will always call it both ways, as he is a 'committed' Christian. I am a Communist so I am always called an 'avowed' Communist. As Billy Conolly observed, Protestants are always 'staunch' and Catholics are always 'devout.' That is the language in which we operate.

If there was a prime mover or a creator, then Richie will claim it was God. No Big Bang, no alignment of molecules. But if existence has always been , then he will claim the same: that God is eternal and therefore existence is eternal. He wants it both ways, whereas you and I, I suspect, only want clarity one way or the other. Richie's gnomic responses are him guarding against either possibility.

sammer

Post Edited (Sat 15 Dec 22:02)
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Sat 15 Dec 22:18

If you read back a few comments Sammer i did address your comment under"a poor record of cosmology"perhaps you missed it,perhaps you ignored it.

There are no both ways.Either you believe in a cause for the formation of our universe or not.
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: kelty_par  
Date:   Sat 15 Dec 22:49

"KP-now you are misquoting me.I never said we are special.I said we are made in the image of God.That's a belief.It doesn't make anyone who has that belief arrogant.

I would argue anything lower than that view demotes us to animal status."

Firstly, I never claimed you did say we are special, but the idea that there is someone as opposed to something behind it all and that we are all in his image, that we are the chosen ones as we are the only planet with life on it etc. is clearly a claim of that nature.

Secondly, we are animals. Other animals do all the things we do - communicate, socialise, form relationships, kill each other, protect each other, use tools, all sorts.
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Sat 15 Dec 22:56

We are animals"There are the similarities that you list but there are also major differences,namely talking and abstract thought.
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: donj  
Date:   Sat 15 Dec 23:38

Nobody knows and all the theories are just that.We'll never know the full secrets of the universe as we are just an insignificant part of it.

Maybe a god but maybe not,all we'll ever know is that we are here.
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: kelty_par  
Date:   Sat 15 Dec 23:48

Animals communicate using a variety of techniques including by making noises - just because we can't understand them, it's not talking? Even then, there are plenty of cases of pets being able to tell their owners what they want (food, attention) or how they're feeling (pain, tiredness, fear, happiness) and animals being able to understand humans. As to abstract thought, how do you know that? There are plenty of studies which suggest they may be, and it's worth further study. Interestingly, the main websites that aim to disprove these studies are those that deal with Intelligent Design and other anti-evolutionary ideas.
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Sun 16 Dec 00:08

Yes they do,i agree.They are able to communicate a great deal.I don't know of any animal though that can analyse the themes of a play or have an in depth discussion on the why a goal was disallowed.
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe  
Date:   Sun 16 Dec 00:33

Quote:

richie5401, Sun 16 Dec 00:08

Yes they do,i agree.They are able to communicate a great deal.I don't know of any animal though that can analyse the themes of a play or have an in depth discussion on the why a goal was disallowed.


When will an animal have a view about AJ?
Until then I'm not convinced.

If you only turn up to moan then do it elsewhere
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sun 16 Dec 01:31

Ref: sammer
Sat 15 Dec 21:58

<<< OneandupPars, I have enjoyed your contributions and if confusion is your final position then you are no worse off than great minds like Einstein; a very respectable position to adopt. >>>

Thank you Sammer, how lovely of you to say that, really gave me a lift. Yes I am a bit confused. But I've learned a few things from this thread. Gravitons!

Just today someone was talking to me about how when people talk about near-death experiences, they mention light, and I said yes, and a feeling of love, and people seem to characterise God as light and love. But I said, early in Genesis it says Let there be light and I was able to say, well it's close to the idea of a beginning but light is photons which are like particles?, or at least more substantial ? than gravitons which, it's proposed, came before light. So of course it's a spanner in the works if someone thinks of God as simply light because if God is light, gravitons came before God.

ALL HECK NOW BREAKS LOOSE!!!!

Calm down, calm down - it's only me rambling on again... I'm only curious, not really trying to argue anything very strongly.it's all just curiouser and curiouser...

And I hope you'll keep posting, Sammer - opinions and speculation have their merits but you've got a lot of interesting and knowledgeable things to say that bring more colour and diversity into the proceedings.



Post Edited (Sun 16 Dec 01:47)
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sun 16 Dec 01:44

Ref: donj
Sat 15 Dec 23:38

<<< Nobody knows and all the theories are just that.We'll never know the full secrets of the universe as we are just an insignificant part of it.

Maybe a god but maybe not,all we'll ever know is that we are here. >>>

Very well put donj.

It's just a discussion about some interesting topics and letting each other know what we've discovered and think. So nobody needs to get too worked up (I'll try and remember that myself !) Nevertheless if somebody seems to be coming across a bit forceful - well, we're all passionate - I think it's good that we just try and say what we mean without having to pussy-foot or bow and scrape. I mean - talk about civilised - I don't think there's a single bit o' name-calling on this thread. Funny we can talk about anything to great depth, but on the football forum - a relatively shallow subject - the air regularly turns blue !
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe  
Date:   Sun 16 Dec 01:53

If I could turn this around.
Imagine you read somewhere that Frank Sinatra suddenly appeared out of nowhere in front of someone's bed, not one person would believe it.
Someone says the universe came out of nothing and suddenly academics and people in the know have an explanation.

It's OK to say we dont know.

If you only turn up to moan then do it elsewhere
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sun 16 Dec 02:19

Ref: kelty_par
Sat 15 Dec 23:48

<<< there are plenty of cases of pets being able to tell their owners what they want (food, attention) or how they're feeling (pain, tiredness, fear, happiness) and animals being able to understand humans. As to abstract thought, how do you know that? There are plenty of studies which suggest they may be, and it's worth further study. >>>

Glad to see you sticking up for other animals Kelty.

And talking about further study (with the implication that opinions may be strongly formed on far too little knowledge ), here's a curiosity:

I used to wonder about the "seeming apparent fact" that the hind legs of some animals bend the other way to ours. But then I was making a model of a deer and studied the legs in detail. In fact the legs of deer as well as dogs, horses etc which appear to bend the other way, don't.They have the same bones as us, but their knees are very high up (in the image of the deer, it's level with the belly) their "ankles" are about half way and the feet bones are greatly elongated, toe bones elongated futher, so that a deer walks on tiptoe.





What does it matter? Well, most folk don't know it. If when they're young some people decide to not believe evolution, perhaps they might be influenced by such misconceptions. Put several such misconceptions together and it could be enough to sway someone towards thinking evolution is wrong. Fair enough if they want to think so, but better if it's not just for such misconceptions.

So the point I'm making is not to start a debate about evolution but just to say that on any side of a debate, it's easy to form strong opinions and beliefs on the basis of too little information.
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sun 16 Dec 02:32

Ref: AdamAntsParsStripe
Sun 16 Dec 01:53

<<< Imagine you read somewhere that Frank Sinatra suddenly appeared out of nowhere in front of someone's bed, not one person would believe it.>>>

With respect AAPS, if you're saying science is like that I think you're not quite getting the science POV.

Frank Sinatra is an extremely complex item.

Science tries to explain the origin of existence from relatively simple stuff?

I think religion on the other hand promotes the creation of extreme complexity out of nothing at a stroke.




Yes - absolutely, it's OK to say we don't know.



Post Edited (Sun 16 Dec 02:42)
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe  
Date:   Sun 16 Dec 02:52

Quote:

onandupthepars, Sun 16 Dec 02:32

Ref: AdamAntsParsStripe
Sun 16 Dec 01:53

<<< Imagine you read somewhere that Frank Sinatra suddenly appeared out of nowhere in front of someone's bed, not one person would believe it.>>>

With respect AAPS, if you're saying science is like that I think you're not quite getting the science POV.

Frank Sinatra is an extremely complex item.

Science tries to explain the origin of existence from relatively simple stuff?

I think religion on the other hand promotes the creation of extreme complexity out of nothing at a stroke.




Yes - absolutely, it's OK to say we don't know.


I'm not arguing from the point of religion though. Just simple logic.
Somone said both are "magic" in princible.
I agree with that thinking as in "I really don't know"

If you only turn up to moan then do it elsewhere
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sun 16 Dec 04:44

Ref: AdamAntsParsStripe
Sun 16 Dec 02:52

<<< I'm not arguing from the point of religion though. Just simple logic. >>>

I wasn't saying you definitely meant the science view AAPS but wondered if your use of the word "academics," meant science professors etc.?

I believe it was me who said either way - science or religion - when it comes to the ORIGIN, we're asked to believe in magic.

On this thread I've looked into the science view quite a bit.

Unfortunately the Bible doesn't explain the origin in detail beyond what's in Genesis? So that's all it gives us to go on? And then there are other philosophical or theological ideas?

For example Sammer brought in the idea of something always existing, from the Vedas (of Hinduism) and I think you find a similar thing in the kabbalah (of Judaism)? which I think are interesting up to a point but I haven't studied them much.





So you're right, no-one knows the origin (i.e. primal cause) of the universe. However, I think the science view of the DEVELOPMENT of the universe from not long after the Big Bang is backed up by certain kinds of observations? Of background radiation etc still detectable?

Did I read somewhere that science is working on an explanation right back to 3 seconds after the Big Bang? With observations to back it up? (Was it Kelty, Thu 13 Dec 20:11, or did I read it somewhere else as well?)

Can a Physicist save me from having to look all that difficult stuff up ?

I don't see any reason to think that science hasn't got the DEVELOPMENT of the universe from close to its beginnings about right.



Post Edited (Sun 16 Dec 05:16)
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Sun 16 Dec 12:50

I think it was Hawking that said it was less than a second(or some even smaller amount) they could observe the origin of the universe.

Let's say that's true.It doesn't answer the fundamental question you asked OAUTP."What is the origin of matter"Matter doesn't come from nothing/no one.

"Relatively simple stuff"As science has observed out RNA/DNA aren't simple,making it even more impossible that it could arise from nothing.
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sun 16 Dec 17:20

Ref: richie
Sun 16 Dec 12:50

<<<"Relatively simple stuff" As science has observed our RNA/DNA aren't simple, making it even more impossible that it could arise from nothing.>>>


I know RNA and DNA are complex but I think they took a few billion years to develop. They're not what I meant by "relatively simple stuff."
I meant quantum fluctuations which I presume are simple compared to Frank Sinatra. At least when he was alive. (Especially when he was singing and dancing. I always liked that one, "Well did you ever - what a swell party this is." Seems appropriate to this thread!)

Or were you making the point that RNA and DNA are exceedingly complex to have arisen without design? That's not really a question of the origin of the universe but of evolution versus creation. Evolutionists say it took billions of years? for DNA to develop, Creationists say (according to the Bible) it was first made in an instant or a matter of hours, on the third day? in plants.


I do agree with you Rich - as I said in my last post that <<< no-one knows the origin (i.e. primal cause) of the universe >>>. So I think the OP has been answered:

Science claims matter came from the energy of the Big Bang. But it doesn't claim to know what caused something to exist from nothing.* Some religions and philosophies claim to know. I think that's it.


(*I'm basing that on the science explanation I posted (Sat 11:24) that says "something happened to disrupt [the] complete symmetry [of] zero entropy," but doesn't suggest what that "something" was.)







Post Edited (Sun 16 Dec 17:55)
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Sun 16 Dec 18:20

Ah my misuderstanding."Think they took a few billion years to develop" Don't you mean believe?

So you do agree it was"something" not nothing.
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Mon 17 Dec 00:59

Time to party, Rich. Everyone's welcome.









Post Edited (Mon 17 Dec 01:09)
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Mon 17 Dec 11:42

Fantastic you cant beat a dancing corgi!
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Mon 17 Dec 12:05

^^^^^ 😂
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: Andrew283  
Date:   Mon 17 Dec 12:38

Even I have to admit that high level Physics has to be taken with the same grain of salt that any faith does in terms of 'Creation' events.

I'm strongly in the Science side of the argument but that's purely down to my experience with both and that whilst I may not have the slightest idea beyond basic concepts on Virtual particals and Hawking radiation etc, the math and equations are there for anyone to look into.
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Mon 17 Dec 16:02

The thing that has always bothered me about the Big Bang concept is that it might be rather like an expanding balloon. Which means that if it does not burst, the universe will at some time retract into the tiny squash ball it once was, before the whole process starting again.


The horror is not just living our entire existence backwards, but having to see Ryan's open goal miss for the rest of eternity, as we have presumably done countless times already.

sammer

Post Edited (Mon 17 Dec 16:03)
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: Milos Drizzle  
Date:   Tue 18 Dec 00:43

^^^^ He has a point.
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 Re: What is the origin of matter?
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Tue 18 Dec 12:36

Meh Isaiah beat Hubble by quite a margin;)
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