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Topic Originator: ZiggyB
Date: Fri 18 Jan 13:57
Their no worse than the youth in Scotland :-)
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Topic Originator: richie5401
Date: Fri 18 Jan 14:14
tee-hee
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Topic Originator: PARrot
Date: Fri 18 Jan 14:33
Quote:
ZiggyB, Fri 18 Jan 13:57
Their no worse than the youth in Scotland :-)
Beat me too it. Still funny.
I asked in an office what everyone thought of yoofinasia. Caused a massive argument then someone asked me what I thought as a christian.
When i said no worse than the youth here I nearly got beaten up.
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Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert
Date: Fri 18 Jan 14:48
Saw a report the other day that pensioners in Japan are committing offences to spend time in prison.
Sky telly, 3 meals a day , warm cells and no bills.
Sounds attractive to me.
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Topic Originator: PARrot
Date: Fri 18 Jan 15:13
Quote:
LochgellyAlbert, Fri 18 Jan 14:48
Saw a report the other day that pensioners in Japan are committing offences to spend time in prison.
Sky telly, 3 meals a day , warm cells and no bills.
Sounds attractive to me.
Me too. Thinking about nutting Boris on Tv. That should get me B&B for a few years.
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Topic Originator: average white par
Date: Fri 18 Jan 16:22
I thought this was a thread about the Tygers of Pan Tang... imagine my blah blah etc...
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Topic Originator: dave67
Date: Fri 18 Jan 20:10
Have they no split up/retired AWP
Let`s try making it till Christmas
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Topic Originator: average white par
Date: Fri 18 Jan 21:26
I think they reformed in their old age as The Tygers of Pan Loaf...
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Topic Originator: average white par
Date: Fri 18 Jan 21:42
The "Hellbound" period, featuring a young John Sykes was easily their best time imo...
Do you remember Y&T? They were quite a guid slightly obscure band as well...
THERE WILL NOW BE A SHORT PAUSE WHILE THIS THREAD IS BLATANTLY HIJACKED BY MIDDLE AGED HEAVY METAL FANS. NORMAL SERVICE WILL RESUME AFTER A REFLECTIVE PERIOD OF LISTENING TO 10 MINUTE MICHAEL SCHENKER GUITAR SOLOS.
PLEASE DO NOT ADJUST YOUR SET.
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Topic Originator: widtink
Date: Fri 18 Jan 22:04
****geek alert****
Y&T stood for yesterday and today which was originally their name before the shortened it.
Reformed in 1995 and are still on the go today. They were touring (US) last December.
Admin
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Topic Originator: average white par
Date: Fri 18 Jan 22:20
"Black Tiger" and "Meanstreak" were my fave Y&T albums, great band in their day... Mind Magnum? A bit more progressive but not bad...
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Topic Originator: widtink
Date: Fri 18 Jan 23:00
Ah... Now without the use of Google I can tell ye that Magnum are still very active in recording and touring.
Don't know how many of the current band are original members though.
Admin
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Topic Originator: donj
Date: Fri 18 Jan 23:31
Exactly whose life is it?
If my life gets so bad I decide it's over why exactly can anybody else tell me no?I'm not hurting them,saving country money and family get over it and understand even if hurts initially.
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Sat 19 Jan 00:00
Save the country money? I'd imagine that'll swing it for the goverment.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: calpar
Date: Sat 19 Jan 01:27
Join the other thread and that would work for the majority
Get phil to save us all, give it up !
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Topic Originator: PARrot
Date: Sat 19 Jan 10:13
Quote:
calpar, Sat 19 Jan 01:27
Join the other thread and that would work for the majority
Get phil to save us all, give it up !
I didnt understand a word of tjat.
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Topic Originator: PARrot
Date: Sat 19 Jan 10:16
Quote:
donj, Fri 18 Jan 23:31
Exactly whose life is it?
If my life gets so bad I decide it's over why exactly can anybody else tell me no?I'm not hurting them,saving country money and family get over it and understand even if hurts initially.
I dont think any authorities would disagree with having the right to terminate your own life under extreme circumstances. The concern is how that would develop. The slippy road can be avoided by not taking the first step.
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Topic Originator: richie5401
Date: Sat 19 Jan 12:26
Been legal in Oregon since 1997 and over 90% of folks requesting PAS said their reason was a decreased ability to participate in activities that made life enjoyable.
Loss of Autonomy was the second and third was dignity.
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Topic Originator: PARrot
Date: Sat 19 Jan 15:13
Quote:
richie5401, Sat 19 Jan 12:26
Been legal in Oregon since 1997 and over 90% of folks requesting PAS said their reason was a decreased ability to participate in activities that made life enjoyable.
Loss of Autonomy was the second and third was dignity.
Dignity would do it for me. When someone has to wipe my bottom ....pull the plug.
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Topic Originator: camW00dS
Date: Mon 4 Feb 14:55
Euthanasia should be allowed in few cases
Not everyone agree to exist like a vegetable
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Topic Originator: richie5401
Date: Mon 4 Feb 15:12
The fundamental question would still exist.You are asking a doctor to assist in killing someone,not the oath he pledged to uphold.
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Topic Originator: PARrot
Date: Mon 4 Feb 15:20
Quote:
richie5401, Mon 4 Feb 15:12
The fundamental question would still exist.You are asking a doctor to assist in killing someone,not the oath he pledged to uphold.
....change the oath to something that supports dignity.
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Topic Originator: richie5401
Date: Mon 4 Feb 15:28
What would be your suggestion?
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Topic Originator: PARrot
Date: Mon 4 Feb 16:28
Well I can thinl on a president that needs put out of everyones misery.
Asides that. There are cases where people are suffering undignified misery just to "Be alive" ... for what? More misery?
Might as well be in Hell.
I think there is a difference between saving lives and unneccessarily sustaining a life of someone who would rather go home.
Why give someone medication to prolong suffering when naturaly that person would pass. That is cruelty.
If I am ever lying helpless in a bed Pshng and shtng myself with suffering the indignity of someone having to clean me, I hope someone has the decency and kindness to let me go.
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Topic Originator: richie5401
Date: Mon 4 Feb 16:51
Based on all of that,what changes would you make to the Hippocratic oath?
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Topic Originator: PARrot
Date: Mon 4 Feb 17:42
I would answer that if I knew it, or if I wanted to take time to research it or go any deeper.
Basically though, it should include something about needless suffering.
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Topic Originator: PARrot
Date: Mon 4 Feb 17:52
Just googled it for a quick squint. I wouldnt change a word. Id just burn it in its entirity.
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Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe
Date: Mon 4 Feb 18:16
Should there be any difference from pets?
We can't bear to see a pet suffering and they are rightfully put to sleep.
If a human has absolutely no quality of life and facing a painful and undignified death surely the same reasoning applies?
It is just cruel to keep them alive when they have no hope of a cure.
I would agree each case MUST be treated individually and not introduce a law that gives permission for families to end someone's life willy nilly.
That would be open to abuse like it or not as there are some right evil c**ts out there who would be looking at a will instead.
Zwei Pints Bier und ein Päckchen Chips bitte
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Topic Originator: richie5401
Date: Mon 4 Feb 18:22
"Should there be any difference from pets"Well many humans are treated worse than dogs so based on that no.
You are correct though...the abuse/loopholes that would be created would bring out the worst.
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Topic Originator: gopars
Date: Mon 4 Feb 19:19
Doctors already practice this, diamorphine prescribed to pallative patients, just extend it to the patients that wish it and are of sound mental health.
Cut me do I not bleed black and white.
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Topic Originator: Socks
Date: Mon 4 Feb 23:05
If someone genuinely wants to die, I think they should be allowed to do so. In the course of some voluntary work I do, I often speak to people who just want to die; sometimes I find it very sad that dignified death is not an option, leaving the options of struggling on or ending it in a most unpleasant, painful way.
Any implementation obviously needs very careful thought to safeguard against abuse, but I find it quite sad that discussion at a political level is very rare on this. I found Margo MacDonald's campaign for this to be quite inspirational, done as it was at a time when she herself was seriously ill. Sadly though, it doesn't seem to have progressed very far since her death and my perception is that there is great reluctance to even debate this properly.
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Topic Originator: PARrot
Date: Tue 5 Feb 00:34
Jings where have you been? Good to get a visit from a sound mind. You maybe didn't know it but there are some funny folk on here sometimes! 😉
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Topic Originator: sadindiefreak
Date: Tue 5 Feb 10:18
When the Scottish Government had a vote on this I attended a gathering of support outside. There were close to 300 of us.
There was a pro-life/anti-euthanasia demonstration there as well. Around 50 of them mostly made up of religious folk.
One was holding a banner saying "There is a time to be born and a time to die, Ecclesiastes 3:2"
Me being the Bible Studying atheist that I am saw an opportunity to challenge what he was using this verse to say.
I went over and asked him what Ecclesiastes 3:3 says.
He had no idea, so I told him it says "There is a time to kill and a time to heal"
I continued that if someone is beyond being able to be healed and is suffering then perhaps that is the time to kill, just as the very next verse of the scripture he was quoting said.
He just told me he didn't know if it said that and would check later but I must be taking it "out of context"
I spoke to another lady in that group would had worked in healthcare in a country where euthanasia was legal.
She told me of old people felling pressure from family members, whether that was from financial concerns or the fact they felt like a burden.
This I think is a genuine concern and has to be addressed before we can introduce euthanasia.
Really interesting that Richie and PARrot are on opposite sides on this issue. I'm preparing my popcorn now this could get messy.
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Topic Originator: richie5401
Date: Tue 5 Feb 12:15
"There is a time to kill and a time to heal" is talking about war and it's after affects.
There is a time when a person is beyond healing,that's natural part of life.The next position should be comfort,not kill me(at least from a doctors perspective)
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Topic Originator: sadindiefreak
Date: Tue 5 Feb 16:51
Quote:
richie5401, Tue 5 Feb 12:15
"There is a time to kill and a time to heal" is talking about war and it's after affects.
You really do just make things up as you go along.
Having read and studied Ecclesiastes in its entirety I can assure you this book is not talking about war.
Ecclesiastes 3 goes through a kind of list of things and says basically there is a time for everything.
Verse 8 says there is a time for war and a time for peace. If verse 3 is as you claim surely that's repeating itself.
I absolutely reject your interpretation of this text.
It is almost certainly not about euthanasia either but I was making the point to the guy holding the banner that he was cherry picking the verse he thought supported his stance.
Yet the very next verse could be used to support the polar opposite position.
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Topic Originator: sadindiefreak
Date: Tue 5 Feb 17:00
Quote:
richie5401, Tue 5 Feb 12:15
There is a time when a person is beyond healing,that's natural part of life.The next position should be comfort,not kill me(at least from a doctors perspective)
I agree with you 100% that when healing is no longer an option the next step should not be "kill me" It should be the best palliative care available.
There then comes the point when the suffering becomes so intense that the person suffering should have the option to die if that is what they want.
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Topic Originator: veteraneastender
Date: Tue 5 Feb 18:47
What about medical staff that are obliged to help terminate human life against their will ?
Not that long ago two Catholic nurses were subject to disciplinary action for refusing to carry out certain duties which supported abortion procedures, claiming it was against their religious convictions - concentious objectors in other words.
I can’t remember the specifics in detail but I think it escalated to the courts in a test case scenario.
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Topic Originator: sadindiefreak
Date: Tue 5 Feb 20:55
Quote:
veteraneastender, Tue 5 Feb 18:47
What about medical staff that are obliged to help terminate human life against their will ?
Not that long ago two Catholic nurses were subject to disciplinary action for refusing to carry out certain duties which supported abortion procedures, claiming it was against their religious convictions - concentious objectors in other words.
I can’t remember the specifics in detail but I think it escalated to the courts in a test case scenario.
Simple, you set up a body outside of the NHS like Dignitas in Switzerland. It is a non profit organisation as well.
They don't just terminate people's lives either they also do advisory work on palliative care and suicide attempt prevention.
Nobody who is a conscientious objector would be forced to work for them.
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Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe
Date: Tue 5 Feb 21:07
Quote:
sadindiefreak, Tue 5 Feb 20:55
Quote:
veteraneastender, Tue 5 Feb 18:47
What about medical staff that are obliged to help terminate human life against their will ?
Not that long ago two Catholic nurses were subject to disciplinary action for refusing to carry out certain duties which supported abortion procedures, claiming it was against their religious convictions - concentious objectors in other words.
I can’t remember the specifics in detail but I think it escalated to the courts in a test case scenario.
Simple, you set up a body outside of the NHS like Dignitas in Switzerland. It is a non profit organisation as well.
They don't just terminate people's lives either they also do advisory work on palliative care and suicide attempt prevention.
Nobody who is a conscientious objector would be forced to work for them.
Yep this is something I've thought long and hard with as someone who used to be totally against Euthanasia.
I've seen documentaries about what they do and it isn't just about turning up, signing a signature and you have the right to die.
Lots of care taken and advise given plus alternatives.
It is, at present at least a very dignified organisation.
I'm still not sure I want to see it widespread legalised as it is really open to abuse.
I don't underestimate people's cruelty where money is involved so best go very slowly down this path.
Zwei Pints Bier und ein Päckchen Chips bitte
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Topic Originator: richie5401
Date: Wed 6 Feb 00:21
I agree the whole book doesn't talk about War,but in verse 3:3 it is talking of the actions of war and the subsequent effects.
Verse 8 is of course talking of battles and peace in general.
The level of end of life care is excellent in developed countries.There is no need to ask a doctor to speed up the process unnaturally.
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Topic Originator: MikeyLeonard
Date: Wed 6 Feb 00:53
Quote:
richie5401, Wed 6 Feb 00:21
There is no need to ask a doctor to speed up the process unnaturally.
Unless the poor bugger that's suffering wants to.
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Topic Originator: richie5401
Date: Wed 6 Feb 01:00
You obviously missed the previous point.
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Topic Originator: sadindiefreak
Date: Wed 6 Feb 02:31
Quote:
richie5401, Wed 6 Feb 00:21
The level of end of life care is excellent in developed countries.There is no need to ask a doctor to speed up the process unnaturally.
The last time I saw my grandmother she was crying saying she wished she could just die.
She had terminal cancer and was in a great deal of pain.
She died the next day of a heart attack.
It did cross my mind that she may have been given too much morphine to bring on her death but I must say I am delighted she was put out of her misery whether by natural cause or being helped along.
Richie I was thinking about your position on the death penalty and on euthanasia and wondered, would you advocate the death penalty for someone who assisted a relative to take their own life if they wanted to be euthanised.?
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Topic Originator: richie5401
Date: Wed 6 Feb 02:47
I have had similar experiences and i'm sure most if not all who posted on this subject have.Death is an enemy,and in a lot of cases not a very nice one.
The death penalty isn't warranted in the scenario you laid out.Why?It requires consent from both sides.Pre-meditated murder doesn't.
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Topic Originator: veteraneastender
Date: Wed 6 Feb 15:08
"Simple, you set up a body outside of the NHS like Dignitas in Switzerland. It is a non profit organisation as well.
They don't just terminate people's lives either they also do advisory work on palliative care and suicide attempt prevention.
Nobody who is a conscientious objector would be forced to work for them."
Does Dignitas have abortion clinics ?
Those nurses had a conscientious objection to ending human life in the womb, a totally different and separate issue from euthanasia.
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Topic Originator: sadindiefreak
Date: Wed 6 Feb 22:17
Quote:
veteraneastender, Wed 6 Feb 15:08
"Simple, you set up a body outside of the NHS like Dignitas in Switzerland. It is a non profit organisation as well.
They don't just terminate people's lives either they also do advisory work on palliative care and suicide attempt prevention.
Nobody who is a conscientious objector would be forced to work for them."
Does Dignitas have abortion clinics ?
Those nurses had a conscientious objection to ending human life in the womb, a totally different and separate issue from euthanasia.
This thread is about euthanasia. You brought up the chance of conscientious objectors like in the case of the midwife and abortions and if people would be forced to assist in deaths.
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Topic Originator: veteraneastender
Date: Thu 7 Feb 13:44
Ending life is ending life.
No medical professional should be obliged to support or participate against their will.
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Topic Originator: sadindiefreak
Date: Thu 7 Feb 14:06
Quote:
veteraneastender, Thu 7 Feb 13:44
Ending life is ending life.
No medical professional should be obliged to support or participate against their will.
That's why an independent organisation outside of the NHS could be set up. Only those willing to carry out the job would then be employed by them.
It's not rocket science.
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Topic Originator: richie5401
Date: Thu 7 Feb 14:24
Would an independent agency not be subject to the law?The Suicide act would have to be amended surely?
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Topic Originator: moviescot
Date: Thu 7 Feb 14:57
Quote:
richie5401, Thu 7 Feb 14:24
Would an independent agency not be subject to the law?The Suicide act would have to be amended surely?
What is the suicide act? I'm assuming you mean assisted suicide!!! I would presume they would still have to work within the law so that would need to be clarified.
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Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe
Date: Thu 7 Feb 15:01
Quote:
veteraneastender, Thu 7 Feb 13:44
Ending life is ending life.
No medical professional should be obliged to support or participate against their will.
Agree 100%
Zwei Pints Bier und ein Päckchen Chips bitte
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Topic Originator: richie5401
Date: Thu 7 Feb 15:07
No,i mean the Suicide act.Suicide was decriminalised but created aiding a suicide as an offence with up to a 14 year sentence.
That would have to be amended if anything like PAS were to move forward.
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Topic Originator: moviescot
Date: Thu 7 Feb 15:46
Quote:
richie5401, Thu 7 Feb 15:07
No,i mean the Suicide act.Suicide was decriminalised but created aiding a suicide as an offence with up to a 14 year sentence.
That would have to be amended if anything like PAS were to move forward.
So the assisted suicide part of the suicide act. Of course there have been a number of instances of assisted suicides with no prosecutions
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Topic Originator: moviescot
Date: Thu 7 Feb 15:49
Quote:
richie5401, Thu 7 Feb 15:07
No,i mean the Suicide act.Suicide was decriminalised but created aiding a suicide as an offence with up to a 14 year sentence.
That would have to be amended if anything like PAS were to move forward.
And just for clarity this is the position in Scotland.
There is no legislation in Scotland concerning assisted suicide. In such cases the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service (COPFS) will make a decision to prosecute. It remains possible for someone who assists someone to end their lives to be prosecuted for murder or culpable homicide, which both carry lengthy custodial sentences.
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Topic Originator: richie5401
Date: Thu 7 Feb 16:41
No i'm saying it could be prosecuted but you are correct it would be up to the PF.
If it were to happen and such an agency was established i think many would opt for it.With that demand though comes more questions than answers.
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Topic Originator: moviescot
Date: Thu 7 Feb 16:50
Suicide in Scotland has never been an offence and there is no suicide act in Scotland.
England and Wales suicide act 1961.
The text of sections 1 and 2 of this Act was enacted verbatim for Northern Ireland by sections 12 and 13 of the Criminal Justice Act 1966. The Act did not apply to Scotland, as suicide was never an offence under Scots Law. Assisting a suicide in Scotland can in some circumstances constitute murderor culpable homicide, but no modern examples of cases devoid of direct application of intentional or unintentional harm (such as helping a person to inject themselves) seem to be available; it was noted in a consultation preceding the introduction of the Assisted Suicide (Scotland) Bill that "the law appears to be subject to some uncertainty, partly because of a lack of relevant case law".[
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Topic Originator: richie5401
Date: Thu 7 Feb 16:52
Right,i was talking about the amendment to the act,where it was conceivable that someone would be prosecuted.
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Topic Originator: moviescot
Date: Thu 7 Feb 17:53
Quote:
richie5401, Thu 7 Feb 16:52
Right,i was talking about the amendment to the act,where it was conceivable that someone would be prosecuted.
But of course the act does not apply to Scotland so can't be amended. You would need completely new legislation.
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Topic Originator: richie5401
Date: Thu 7 Feb 18:19
I can hear the pencils getting sharpened at Holyrood already.
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Topic Originator: moviescot
Date: Thu 7 Feb 18:45
Quote:
richie5401, Thu 7 Feb 18:19
I can hear the pencils getting sharpened at Holyrood already.
Bit late for that. From 2015.
MSPs have rejected the Assisted Suicide Scotland Bill by 82 votes to 36 following a debate at Holyrood.
The bill would have allowed those with terminal illnesses to seek the help of a doctor to end their own life.
Supporters said the plan had widespread public backing but critics argued a change in the law would be unethical.
MSPs were given a free vote. The Scottish government did not support changing the law.
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Topic Originator: richie5401
Date: Thu 7 Feb 23:42
Were the "significant flaws" ever made public or discussed?
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Topic Originator: KirklistonPar
Date: Sat 9 Feb 07:38
I’m all for it, it’s your body your choice If your pet is seriously ill & it’s only a matter of time then the vet who’s job it is to help the animal get better is able to administer an injection to put the animal out its misery. It’s considered more humain think to do.
If you’re a human on the other hand you can bloody suffer!
I had to suffer watching my Grandad taking his final breaths after they switched of the oxygen they were giving him. Not a quick death & a horrific thing to wintness, a once great man who by this point was pretty much unrecognisable He had fought for his country if Africa as a desert rat & been taken prisoner by the Japanese in WW2 after surviving all that he came back to Scotland & meet my Gran, was a loving Grandad & left us with great memories. He loved a walk round Townhill loch & down the Glen whilst catching up with old friends. It certainly wasn’t a dignified passing and one to this day that I still struggle with. I’m not sure if I’d go to the hospital if I got that phone call again.
Post Edited (Sat 09 Feb 08:31)
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Topic Originator: richie5401
Date: Sat 9 Feb 13:31
It may be your body but it's not only your choice.At some point several individuals have to be involved.
Humans are not pets and if that view were eradicated,the dignity shown in life would also transfer to death.
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Topic Originator: sadindiefreak
Date: Sat 9 Feb 14:04
Quote:
richie5401, Sat 9 Feb 13:31
Humans are not pets and if that view were eradicated,the dignity shown in life would also transfer to death.
This is true.
So allow people to have the choice to die with dignity instead of suffering.
If it's not for you nobody if forcing it on you.
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Topic Originator: donj
Date: Sat 9 Feb 23:30
If I get a choice in the event of terminal and in pain then I'd choose to go with some dignity.
It's easy to say that life must be protected but I saw my dad go and I would not wish that for me or anyone else.He even asked us to let him go but they dragged his pain out till the end.
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