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 Dug help
Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy  
Date:   Tue 10 Dec 02:48

Dotnet always seems to have some good pointers on certain things so I thought I'd try my luck here.

I have a good bit of experience with German Shepherds that were both ex police/prison dogs and just domestic pets so I've always believed in the dominance training approach with dogs.

The Mrs is Japanese and her family have a wee Maltese dog who has some really interesting behavioural...quirks. That said, I've taken the dominance approach with him and to me he's actually very loving and quite calm but not to the mrs' family but I'm still stumped by a few things with him:

- He is absolutely terrified of other dogs but always tries to approach cats. In Japan most people have small dogs (biggest in the cities are usually Shibas) I've noticed that a lot of them are aggressive wee b*ggers. I'm pretty certain this is just a lack of socialisation when he was younger and I think finding another dog that is particularly calm and will happily just sit and let him approach on his own terms is the best way. Open to suggestions though.

- He is terrified of cars, even when they're stationary. The weird thing about this is he doesn't give a damn about buses, either stationary or moving. This one really has me stumped!

- He tips his food bowl rather than just eating out of it. The bowl is metal, so I think he sees a reflection and this goes back to his fear of other dogs. Quite a narrow bowl too, so it might be he just doesn't like that. I'm thinking a wider and heavier porcelain bowl is the solution here.

Her family get annoyed with him when he barks at people coming into the apartment and when he growls when you play with him but I've tried explaining to them that this is just normal dog behaviour and the Maltese is a particularly playful breed - I think this is a major cause of stress and confusion to him as he's getting skelpt on the nose for "normal" dog behaviour. When he hides under the table from people (usually white people just because Japan is homogenous) they always try and force him out rather than letting him do his own thing and approach on his terms. The odd thing is that they've had another Maltese before him, which was apparently very calm - they just don't seem to know how to handle this one.

They've said to me that I can have him if I like, and while I've never imagined myself with a wee "handbag dug", I actually feel a bit sorry for him and he is my wee pal so I think I will take him.

Anyone have any experience with this particular breed? Or any other suggestions?
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 Re: Dug help
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Tue 10 Dec 03:25

Quote:

hurricane_jimmy, Tue 10 Dec 02:48

Dotnet always seems to have some good pointers on certain things so I thought I'd try my luck here.

I have a good bit of experience with German Shepherds that were both ex police/prison dogs and just domestic pets so I've always believed in the dominance training approach with dogs.

The Mrs is Japanese and her family have a wee Maltese dog who has some really interesting behavioural...quirks. That said, I've taken the dominance approach with him and to me he's actually very loving and quite calm but not to the mrs' family but I'm still stumped by a few things with him:

- He is absolutely terrified of other dogs but always tries to approach cats. In Japan most people have small dogs (biggest in the cities are usually Shibas) I've noticed that a lot of them are aggressive wee b*ggers. I'm pretty certain this is just a lack of socialisation when he was younger and I think finding another dog that is particularly calm and will happily just sit and let him approach on his own terms is the best way. Open to suggestions though.

- He is terrified of cars, even when they're stationary. The weird thing about this is he doesn't give a damn about buses, either stationary or moving. This one really has me stumped!

- He tips his food bowl rather than just eating out of it. The bowl is metal, so I think he sees a reflection and this goes back to his fear of other dogs. Quite a narrow bowl too, so it might be he just doesn't like that. I'm thinking a wider and heavier porcelain bowl is the solution here.

Her family get annoyed with him when he barks at people coming into the apartment and when he growls when you play with him but I've tried explaining to them that this is just normal dog behaviour and the Maltese is a particularly playful breed - I think this is a major cause of stress and confusion to him as he's getting skelpt on the nose for "normal" dog behaviour. When he hides under the table from people (usually white people just because Japan is homogenous) they always try and force him out rather than letting him do his own thing and approach on his terms. The odd thing is that they've had another Maltese before him, which was apparently very calm - they just don't seem to know how to handle this one.

They've said to me that I can have him if I like, and while I've never imagined myself with a wee "handbag dug", I actually feel a bit sorry for him and he is my wee pal so I think I will take him.

Anyone have any experience with this particular breed? Or any other suggestions?


Yes. If as you say he is getting skelpt then get him away from that family. Dogs should never be hit. 99% of any issues a dog will have is fear of being struck. Reward good behaviours. Never punish bad with violence.
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 Re: Dug help
Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy  
Date:   Tue 10 Dec 04:06

Tbh I agree and disagree to an extent MS - I've only ever done it when a dog has either bitten me or snatched something out of my hand and that's the only time I would. AND I would only do it to a dog that id aggressive thinking it is alpha rather than out of fear. I've only ever had to do it with any dog once and agree that it should be avoided apart from if they bite or snatch. Usually I follow it through with pinning the dog to the floor and pressing my finger tips against the neck and putting my face in their's and growling until they submit. It sounds extreme but it's basically a show of alpha behaviour through something that the dog will understand and only needs done once usually. I did it to the Maltese in question and after that I just played with him and trained him and he became my best pal.
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 Re: Dug help
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Tue 10 Dec 07:53

Quote:

hurricane_jimmy, Tue 10 Dec 04:06

Tbh I agree and disagree to an extent MS - I've only ever done it when a dog has either bitten me or snatched something out of my hand and that's the only time I would. AND I would only do it to a dog that id aggressive thinking it is alpha rather than out of fear. I've only ever had to do it with any dog once and agree that it should be avoided apart from if they bite or snatch. Usually I follow it through with pinning the dog to the floor and pressing my finger tips against the neck and putting my face in their's and growling until they submit. It sounds extreme but it's basically a show of alpha behaviour through something that the dog will understand and only needs done once usually. I did it to the Maltese in question and after that I just played with him and trained him and he became my best pal.


What you are doing is tantamount to dog cruelty. Being aggressive is not the way to treat a dog. You being aggressive will instill that same aggression in the dog

Violence is never the answer. You need to think a bit before posting this sort of stuff.

Actually quite shocked by what you are doing. I now know what you mean by the dominance method.

Post Edited (Tue 10 Dec 07:54)
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 Re: Dug help
Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy  
Date:   Tue 10 Dec 09:57

Dog cruelty? Dinnae talk mince! 😂 Those methods are used by the Polis to train their dogs and were recommended to us by the handler that we had our first retired Shepherd from. The dominance method is all about using behaviour the dog understands to establish yourself as alpha. How many peoole do you see that have dogs that think it understands "No, No, bad dog!"? 😂 Most of the time its because the dog has not been shown the pack order in the house and is allowed to sit on the couch and sleep on the beds or eat at before the master etc. You need to think before you try to shoot people down for using tried and tested methods. How else would you handle an attack trained dog?

Post Edited (Tue 10 Dec 10:00)
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 Re: Dug help
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Tue 10 Dec 10:49

Quote:

hurricane_jimmy, Tue 10 Dec 09:57

Dog cruelty? Dinnae talk mince! 😂 Those methods are used by the Polis to train their dogs and were recommended to us by the handler that we had our first retired Shepherd from. The dominance method is all about using behaviour the dog understands to establish yourself as alpha. How many peoole do you see that have dogs that think it understands "No, No, bad dog!"? 😂 Most of the time its because the dog has not been shown the pack order in the house and is allowed to sit on the couch and sleep on the beds or eat at before the master etc. You need to think before you try to shoot people down for using tried and tested methods. How else would you handle an attack trained dog?


Dogs are not attack trained. Your methods belong in the 70's.

A police dog and a family pet are completely different.
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 Re: Dug help
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Tue 10 Dec 10:51

How do dogs learn?

All training should be reward based. Giving your dog something they really like such as food, toys or praise when they show a particular behaviour means that they are more likely to do it again.

It¿s important to find out what your dog really likes and what their favourite things are. Favourite treats are often small pieces of meat or cheese. The better the reward the more your dog will enjoy training and learning.
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 Re: Dug help
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Tue 10 Dec 10:59

Perhaps you would like to take up your dominance training methods with the RSPCA, who seem to hold a different view.

What is the RSPCA’s view on dominance dog training?

In recent years there has been resurgence in popularity of dog training methods that espouse “dominance” models of dog behaviour. Dominance models suggest that wolves live in hierarchical packs with the alpha wolf at the top and that dogs evolved from wolves and also live in hierarchical packs and see us (humans) as part of their pack. Dominance theory assumes that most unwanted behaviour such as aggression is due to the dog trying to be ‘dominant’ or wanting to be the alpha dog in the pack. Therefore, dominance theory suggests, that the way to solve many behavioural problems such as aggression is to establish dominance as pack leader over the dog.

However, many of these assumptions are erroneous and are often harmful to dogs and the human-animal bond. A lot of initial research about wolf behaviour was conducted by studying captive wolves. This is because wild wolves tend to avoid humans and were difficult to study. It was these studies that generated the idea of ‘packs’ with the alpha male and female breeding pair at the top of the hierarchical structure. However in this false environment wolves could not disperse and escape from confrontation with other wolves, so relationships developed that are not necessarily reflected in more natural wolf groups. More recent studies of natural wolf groups show that they tend to live in families. The group usually consists of Mum and Dad, the current litter, and possible juveniles from one or two previous litters. Dominance contests in such packs are rare and the breeding pair is able to maintain group harmony without aggression.

Most scientists accept that dogs evolved from wolves or they had a common ancestor. However dogs are not wolves. They are different anatomically, physiologically and socially. The biggest difference between wolves and dogs is their ecological niche. Wolves, as a rule avoid humans whereas dogs have evolved to live near humans.

It is now widely recognised by animal behavioural specialists that dogs that use aggression towards humans or other dogs are not trying to be ‘dominant’. Rather, the aggression is usually the result of social confusion, frustration, fear, anxiety or learning. Dogs may use aggression as a means to control situations in which they feel frustrated, fearful or anxious. Some dogs are unable to navigate certain social and interactive demands placed upon them without showing aggression or reactivity. With repeated exposure to such situations dogs can learn that aggression ‘works’ and are more likely to use aggression to control similar situations in the future. If your dog is showing aggression, we suggest that you seek help from a veterinary behavioural specialist.

The ‘dominance’ model for dog behaviour poses serious dog welfare problems. Dominance models may use aversive training techniques such as “alpha rolls”, staring the dog down or other confrontational methods and punishment which can cause fear, pain and distress to dogs. In addition, these methods generally do not address the underlying cause of the unwanted behaviour which is why they are often unsuccessful. In fact, dominance training methods are not scientifically proven to be effective.

Aversive methods may also increase the dog’s underlying fear and anxiety which can actually make the unwanted behaviour much worse. Aversive methods can also reduce the quality of the relationship between the owner and the dog and they can place the owner at serious risk of physical injury.

When trying to change behaviour, try to think about the behaviours you would like your dog to perform and reward only for the responses that lead to those outcomes. This might include sitting rather than jumping on guests or chewing on a toy rather than your favourite pair of shoes. This approach revolves around positive reinforcement- i.e. rewarding behaviour that we like. Rewards can be food, toys or verbal praise. Basically, anything your dog will ‘work’ for.

Conversely, we also need to ensure that rewards for unwanted behaviour are removed. So, keep those shoes out of reach and try wherever possible to avoid any situations or triggers for unwanted behaviours.

The RSPCA’s position is that dogs should be trained using programs that are designed to facilitate the development and maintenance of acceptable behaviours using natural instincts and positive reinforcement. Aversion therapy and physical punishment procedures must not be used in training programs because of the potential for cruelty. Please see AVA Reward-based training for more information.
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 Re: Dug help
Topic Originator: babs woodhouse  
Date:   Tue 10 Dec 12:41

best kind of reward for a dog is attention
ignore it when it is miss behaving and lots of attention when its being good
Try mixing a bit of garlic in with the food and rub some garlic round the rim of the bowl
don't put the bowl down till the dog is sitting calmly
hope this helps
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 Re: Dug help
Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy  
Date:   Tue 10 Dec 13:46

MS - I've read quite extensively on both Dominance and Reward based training and have used both with our shepherds and now do the same with the Maltese in question.

Of the two male shepherds that we have had, one was a failed police dog and the other was a retired prison dog who was weapons, drugs and attack trained. The female that we had with the first male was bred as a house pet and the male pup that we had with the second was the same. It was actually quite interesting watching the second male teaching the male pup and he was incredibly easy to train as a result. The handlers of both of the service dogs recommended dominance training in the beginning when we received the dogs and then reward-based training after. Any signs of aggression were to be dealt with using the alpha method that I've described above. Without this, you CANNOT effectively control a dog that has that level of training. If done properly, you only need to use Dominance training for a very short time in owning a dog and it is actually quite important to do so if you are not the one who has trained the dog. Once the pecking order is established, then you can rely solely on Reward based training.

In the case of the Maltese, when I first encountered him he was going up on the table and taking food amongst other things. I lifted him off and growled at him in the process. As soon as he was put down, he was back up again and the second time he was lifted off he bit me which resulted in a flick on the nose and being placed flat on the floor, finger-tips on neck and being growled at by me and I stood over him. If you watch two dogs - particularly males - this is the approach that the alpha dog will take over another, usually with the tail in the air until the other dog licks the face of the dominant one. After this I followed up by lifting him up on to his feet and playing ball with him. This behaviour has never been repeated by him since and he has never bitten me again and so I have not had to use dominance methods with him again. In fact now, the guy is a wee sook and basically follows me everywhere!

You admitted yourself in this thread that you hadn't heard of Dominance training before I mentioned it here and are quite evidently taking a reactionary stance based on partial information.

I'm quite happy to take the Maltese to the Swedish equivalent of the RSPCA (who will likely be stricter than the UK organisation) and have them examine my relationship with him when I take him home.

Babs - That's exactly what I tell our guests to do with him when guests come to the house - basically leave him alone until he comes to them. When feeding him I always let him see me preparing the food and I sit it on the counter and take a drink of water to let him see me "eating" first (alpha eats first) then he gets sat down and gives a paw before bowl is put down. The garlic thing I've never heard of before though - I'll definitely give that a go! Thanks!
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 Re: Dug help
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Tue 10 Dec 13:49

Quote:

babs woodhouse, Tue 10 Dec 12:41

best kind of reward for a dog is attention
ignore it when it is miss behaving and lots of attention when its being good
Try mixing a bit of garlic in with the food and rub some garlic round the rim of the bowl
don't put the bowl down till the dog is sitting calmly
hope this helps


Please note that garlic is extremely toxic to dogs. Depending on the size of your dog and the amount given it can cause severe illness. This won't be immediately obvious as it can be a show build up. Dogs find it very difficult to digest garlic and a lot of it can regain in their systems.

As an aside on this garlic is 5 times more toxic than onions and twice as d toxic as chocolate.
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 Re: Dug help
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Tue 10 Dec 13:55

Quote:

hurricane_jimmy, Tue 10 Dec 13:46

MS - I've read quite extensively on both Dominance and Reward based training and have used both with our shepherds and now do the same with the Maltese in question.

Of the two male shepherds that we have had, one was a failed police dog and the other was a retired prison dog who was weapons, drugs and attack trained. The female that we had with the first male was bred as a house pet and the male pup that we had with the second was the same. It was actually quite interesting watching the second male teaching the male pup and he was incredibly easy to train as a result. The handlers of both of the service dogs recommended dominance training in the beginning when we received the dogs and then reward-based training after. Any signs of aggression were to be dealt with using the alpha method that I've described above. Without this, you CANNOT effectively control a dog that has that level of training. If done properly, you only need to use Dominance training for a very short time in owning a dog and it is actually quite important to do so if you are not the one who has trained the dog. Once the pecking order is established, then you can rely solely on Reward based training.

In the case of the Maltese, when I first encountered him he was going up on the table and taking food amongst other things. I lifted him off and growled at him in the process. As soon as he was put down, he was back up again and the second time he was lifted off he bit me which resulted in a flick on the nose and being placed flat on the floor, finger-tips on neck and being growled at by me and I stood over him. If you watch two dogs - particularly males - this is the approach that the alpha dog will take over another, usually with the tail in the air until the other dog licks the face of the dominant one. After this I followed up by lifting him up on to his feet and playing ball with him. This behaviour has never been repeated by him since and he has never bitten me again and so I have not had to use dominance methods with him again. In fact now, the guy is a wee sook and basically follows me everywhere!

You admitted yourself in this thread that you hadn't heard of Dominance training before I mentioned it here and are quite evidently taking a reactionary stance based on partial information.

I'm quite happy to take the Maltese to the Swedish equivalent of the RSPCA (who will likely be stricter than the UK organisation) and have them examine my relationship with him when I take him home.

Babs - That's exactly what I tell our guests to do with him when guests come to the house - basically leave him alone until he comes to them. When feeding him I always let him see me preparing the food and I sit it on the counter and take a drink of water to let him see me "eating" first (alpha eats first) then he gets sat down and gives a paw before bowl is put down. The garlic thing I've never heard of before though - I'll definitely give that a go! Thanks!




No I had not heard of the dominance method considering it is an outdated method which has been shown to be based on very dodgy science. As a scientific person which you are I would have thought you would be more open minded.

The best way to train any dog is with reward.
I have since spoken to my brother on this subject and sent him a screenshot of our conversation. As a qualified vet of 20 years he was horrified that dominance training was still being used.

I'll leave you to go on abusing your dog then. But please don't feed it garlic.
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 Re: Dug help
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Tue 10 Dec 14:00

Garlic belongs to the Allium family (which also includes onion, chives, and leeks) and is poisonous to dogs and cats. Garlic is considered to be about 5-times as potent as onion and leeks. ... While tiny amounts of these foods in some pets, especially dogs, may be safe, large amounts can be very toxic.

The definition of large and tiny amounts is dependent on the size of your dog

There was an article on Saturday TV where a qualified dog trainer was feeding his dogs hummus. My wife contacted him via Facebook and asked him why he would feed garlic to his dog. He said it was a very small amount. My wife asked if it was an off the shelf hummus or did he make it himself. Off the shelf he said to which my wife asked how did he know how much garlic was in it? He conceded he had no idea so he has said to her he will do home made from now on with no garlic.

Post Edited (Tue 10 Dec 14:01)
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 Re: Dug help
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Tue 10 Dec 14:12

Sweden seems to be all about positive reinforcement.

The Swedish Working Dog Association (SBK) is an organisation for education and competition for dogs in Sweden. We are responsible for approximately 20 breeds that in Sweden are classified as working dogs. We also educate dogs for The Swedish Army and The Swedish Emergency Management Agency.

The activities within SBK are of great variation and are open for all dog owners. The activities are arranged by the 290 local associations that are spread all over Sweden.

Lots of dogs have a need to work together with people. This need can be fulfilled by letting the dog train to be a dog of duty, through other sorts of training or by competing.

How to train you dog within SBK
All discipline and practice is based on given conditions of the dog and by positive reinforcement. The training is supposed to be joyful for both dog and owner.

Training should be based on general obedience and a good relation between the dog and its owner.

SBK has a well developed educational plan that starts when the dog is a puppy by develop a good relation and cooperation skills with the owner. After that you can choose from a variation of activities that you find interesting or suitable. As good as any dog can be trained - how well is up to the owner.
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 Re: Dug help
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Tue 10 Dec 14:18

The Origin’s of the “Alpha” Dog Theory

Schenkel’s observations of captive wolf behavior were erroneously extrapolated to wild wolf behavior, and then to domestic dogs. It was postulated that wolves were in constant competition for higher rank in the hierarchy, and only the aggressive actions of the alpha male and female held the contenders in check. Other behaviorists following Schenkel’s lead also studied captive wolves and confirmed his findings: groups of unrelated wolves brought together in artificial captive environments do, indeed, engage in often-violent and bloody social struggles.

The problem is, that’s not normal wolf behavior. As David Mech stated in the introduction to his study of wild wolves (Mech, 2000), “Attempting to apply information about the behavior of assemblages of unrelated captive wolves to the familial structure of natural packs has resulted in considerable confusion. Such an approach is analogous to trying to draw inferences about human family dynamics by studying humans in refugee camps. The concept of the alpha wolf as a ‘top dog’ ruling a group of similar-aged compatriots (Schenkel 1947; Rabb et al. 1967; Fox 1971a; Zimen 1975, 1982; Lockwood 1979; van Hooff et al. 1987) is particularly misleading.”

What we know now, thanks to Mech and others, is that in the wild, a wolf pack is a family, consisting of a mated pair and their offspring of the past one to three years. Occasionally two or three families may group together. As the offspring mature they disperse from the pack; the only long-term members of the group are the breeding pair. By contrast, in captivity unrelated wolves are forced to live together for many years, creating tension between mature adults that doesn’t happen in a natural, wild pack.
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 Re: Dug help
Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy  
Date:   Tue 10 Dec 15:22

MS - In the spirit of "open-mindedness", you're at the point now where you're actually just ignoring what's put to you and missing the details.

I have said quite clearly that I've used a dominance method ONCE when said Maltese has bitten me when being shown correct behaviour passively. This was when I first met the dog and the aggressive behaviour has never been repeated subsequently and therefore I've not had to use the method again. The rest of his training with me has been rewards based. The main concern I had/have about him is that he's being b*llocked for behavour such as growling during playing and barking when people come to the apartment.

The SBK stuff you have copy and pasted clearly states: "SBK has a well developed educational plan that starts when the dog is a puppy". This dog is not a puppy - he is 5 years old and so different methods have to be used in the instances that aggressive behaviour is observed during correctional training. Many trainers will tell you that negative reinforcement can and should be used in cases where there is biting during passive training - that includes the two handlers who trained our shepherds from pups - and that subsequent training should involve positive reinforcement to build the bond with the owner. That is exactly what I've done with this dog and you would realise that if you were paying attention to detail.

I recognise the name Schenkel and suspect that I've read some stuff from or about him before and I'm aware of and accept the notions of wolf packs. Like you say, when you place two un-related dogs together, then a heirarchy is established. The two shepherds we had first were brother and sister and so were related and this type of behaviour was not visible. The two males we had next on the other hand were not related and demonstrated heirarchical behaviour quite clearly - the prison shepherd was quite clearly alpha over the younger pup and used to make sure of this after "play-fights" by standing over him tail in the air until his face was licked. As the Older dog reached 12ish he began to be more docile and the younger dog became quite protective of his old pal. Psychology is a qualitative pseudo-science rather than a quantitative science and you can see both sides of the coin when it comes to dog behaviour depending on the situation.

As for the word "horrified" to describe your vet brother's reaction, c'mon eh?
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 Re: Dug help
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Tue 10 Dec 16:36

"Usually I follow it through with pinning the dog to the floor and pressing my finger tips against the neck and putting my face in their's and growling until they submit. It sounds extreme but it's basically a show of alpha behaviour through something that the dog will understand and only needs done once usually. "

You see that's all very well but your use of the word usually does not suggest you've done it once.

Pinning a dog to the floor and pressing your fingertips into its neck is excessive and was one of the main points my brother was horrified by. You clearly think this is normal. I disagree. Let's leave it at that.

Post Edited (Tue 10 Dec 16:37)
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 Re: Dug help
Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy  
Date:   Tue 10 Dec 17:43

I used usually because I've had to do it once to the Maltese and once to the prison Shepherd. I also did it to another dog that came up off its lead and had a go at the younger male shepherd as a pup - I wouldn't have had to if I'd had the other one with me as well because I reckon said dog would have either backed off or been rather badly damaged by the prison shepherd.

The use of the fingertips simulates what another dog would do in such a situation - i.e. mouth around the neck. If you watch dogs, particularly unrelated dogs, a sign of submission is when they put their head inside the others mouth and if submission is not given then mouth goes around the neck of the other dog. You don't press into the neck and strangle the dog, you simply put your fingers there - there's a bit of an almost genetic memory in there that kicks in. Rather similar actually to how dogs and cats both freeze if picked up by the scruff of the neck when young.

The way we had the shepherds trained and I now have the Maltese trained is that I can, for example, give a low growl if he starts scrounging for food under the table.

Still, we've gone from "abusive" to "excessive" so that's progress.
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 Re: Dug help
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Tue 10 Dec 19:32

Quote:

hurricane_jimmy, Tue 10 Dec 17:43

I used usually because I've had to do it once to the Maltese and once to the prison Shepherd. I also did it to another dog that came up off its lead and had a go at the younger male shepherd as a pup - I wouldn't have had to if I'd had the other one with me as well because I reckon said dog would have either backed off or been rather badly damaged by the prison shepherd.

The use of the fingertips simulates what another dog would do in such a situation - i.e. mouth around the neck. If you watch dogs, particularly unrelated dogs, a sign of submission is when they put their head inside the others mouth and if submission is not given then mouth goes around the neck of the other dog. You don't press into the neck and strangle the dog, you simply put your fingers there - there's a bit of an almost genetic memory in there that kicks in. Rather similar actually to how dogs and cats both freeze if picked up by the scruff of the neck when young.

The way we had the shepherds trained and I now have the Maltese trained is that I can, for example, give a low growl if he starts scrounging for food under the table.

Still, we've gone from "abusive" to "excessive" so that's progress.


Why not just try the command no rather than growling.

Thankfully I have never had the need to hit or manhandle any of my dogs in the way you seem to.
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 Re: Dug help
Topic Originator: red-star-par  
Date:   Tue 10 Dec 21:30

My grandfaither was a shepherd and used to beat seven shades out of his dogs when they were being trained, but they obeyed every command thereafter when they went to work. Seemed to be an effective method
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 Re: Dug help
Topic Originator: buffy  
Date:   Tue 10 Dec 21:57

That’s because they were probably ****** terrified of him.
There’s no excuse for abusing an animal in any way shape or form.

buffysbuns.wordpress.com
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 Re: Dug help
Topic Originator: red-star-par  
Date:   Tue 10 Dec 22:52

Quote:

buffy, Tue 10 Dec 21:57

That’s because they were probably ****** terrified of him.
There’s no excuse for abusing an animal in any way shape or form.


Not even if it helps you round up sheep effectively?
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 Re: Dug help
Topic Originator: donj  
Date:   Tue 10 Dec 22:55

Teach your dog as you decide I suppose.All our dogs loved us and we loved them.Our new pup gets warnings but he also gets treats and he's getting there.Still cant stop him jumping on people for pats and wanting to play with every dog he sees but I'll get there.Warnings are not beatings btw just a wee slap on nose pointed finger and a look.

Movie you really would need to use both rewards and warnings with this size of dog as I see so many german shepherds here tight on leads as they got full grown without getting association and poor training.Mines gallops with other dogs and loves chasing sticks.There is a lot more to training a dog than just reward good behavior.
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 Re: Dug help
Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy  
Date:   Wed 11 Dec 00:53

MS - Again, growling is what another dog would do and is a "language" that the dog understands - If I have food in my hand and dog approaches I give a small throaty growl and he understands its my food and then goes and lays down calmly. You see a ridiculous number of people trying to talk to their dogs like "no, no, cmon no no" etc and the dog doesn't have a clue. As for "manhandling" dogs, I agree with you and this is only done when a dog bites as the severity of the action warrants negative feedback. When training the dog otherwise then you use reward based training.

Donj - that's exactly what we did with with our shepherd pup when needed but he learned mostly from the older one. I reckon there's a lot of people who will choose a particular dog breed based on its looks etc rather than looking at the traits of the breed and the environment they need. Border collies in Scotland for me are a good example: a lot of people get them because they're beautiful dogs but they tend to go nuts as housepets because they need a lot of stimulus which would normally come in the form of work. German Shepherds need a territory and are very protective of their pack and I'd never have one unless I had a house with a decent sized garden.
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