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 Covid DNR order for learning disabilities.
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Fri 19 Feb 01:47

Absolutely shocked that the Tory government have issued a Do Not Resuscitate Order for people who have learning disabilities in the event they have Covid.

This is the most distressing thing I have heard, possibly ever. They really are fascists.

I know this should probably be in the politics forum but this is way too important for people not to know about and goes beyond different political opinions into eugenics being carried out on anyone with a learning disability regardless of their politics.

If admin feel it absolutely must be in politics forum then delete and I will repost there.
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 Re: Covid DNR order for learning disabilities.
Topic Originator: PARrot  
Date:   Fri 19 Feb 01:51

I take care of a young man of 39 with a mental capacity of about a 12 year old. He is quite frail too.
I am quite shocked by this and zi doubt I would have seen it in the politics forum. Please keep it here.

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 Re: Covid DNR order for learning disabilities.
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Fri 19 Feb 01:57

I'm not sure if this applies to Scotland as well with the NHS being devolved I would think not but the issuing of DNR orders may be reserved.
Trying to find out.
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 Re: Covid DNR order for learning disabilities.
Topic Originator: oapar  
Date:   Fri 19 Feb 04:55

Where have you seen this? I am sure earlier in the COVID crisis Nicola said that DNR orders can only be issued by clinicians, so if this is true then when was this rule changed? It was in a discussion about older people who contacted COVID. Surely this would be headline news if true.

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 Re: Covid DNR order for learning disabilities.
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Fri 19 Feb 06:54

The story was carried last week by some UK newspapers. The quote below is not exactly a denial that this has been happening.

``A spokesperson from the Department of Health and Social Care said: “It is completely unacceptable for ‘do not attempt CPR’ decisions to be applied in a blanket fashion to any group of people. This has never been policy and we have taken action to prevent this from happening.``

Apparently only 2 in 5 people with learning difficulties make it to 65 years of age.
According to ONS, 6 in 10 covid deaths have been people with disability.

sammer
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 Re: Covid DNR order for learning disabilities.
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Fri 19 Feb 08:20

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/13/new-do-not-resuscitate-orders-imposed-on-covid-19-patients-with-learning-difficulties

Can`t find any evidence of this being a government policy and I was under the impression that dnr`s were decided by the clinicians in charge of the patients.

We all hate poverty, war, and injustice.
Unlike the rest of you squares.
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 Re: Covid DNR order for learning disabilities.
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Fri 19 Feb 13:54

While it is a doctors decision whether to issue a DNR the guidelines issued by the government which cover "during the time of a national emergency" has a list of criteria. Learning difficulties is one of these.

https://www.learningdisabilitytoday.co.uk/do-not-resuscitate-orders-and-learning-disability-where-are-we-now

Post Edited (Fri 19 Feb 13:54)
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 Re: Covid DNR order for learning disabilities.
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Fri 19 Feb 14:29

I still don`t see anything in that suggests that it is government policy though SIF? The link that you provided says it is NICE that is setting the fraility guidelines that surround dnr policy.
This will be quite lengthy but here is a bit from that link that I have copied and pasted.

"In December, the Care Quality Commission (CQC) published an interim report from its review into the application of DNR decisions during the Covid-19 pandemic and found that a combination of unprecedented pressure on care providers and other issues may have led to decisions concerning DNR orders being incorrectly conflated with other clinical assessments around critical care.

It concluded that it was unacceptable for decisions to be applied to groups of people of any description.

One of the issues highlighted was guidance from the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence (NICE) which recommended the use of the Clinical Frailty Scale as part of decision making for access to critical care.

This was based on an already existing body of evidence that suggested that older frail individuals receiving mechanical ventilation had increased odds of hospital mortality.

Yet fears began to increase about what would happen if the blanket application of a frailty measure in these circumstances was used for people with learning disabilities who would score as frail according to the scale. Revised guidance was issued by NICE five days later to make it clear that this was not an appropriate use of the tool.

But these fears became reality when charities began reporting numerous cases were DNRs were communicated to patients with disabilities insensitively or unclearly, and blanket decisions not to resuscitate were issued by some health and care providers."

Lessons to be learned and improvements to be made in my uneducated opinion but I certainly don`t think it is, as you said SIF, that this is eugenics being carried out on anyone with a learning disability.

We all hate poverty, war, and injustice.
Unlike the rest of you squares.
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 Re: Covid DNR order for learning disabilities.
Topic Originator: EastEndBoy  
Date:   Fri 19 Feb 15:12

To say that the government have specifically targeted people with learning disabilities with new legislation is misleading at best.

...ken?
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 Re: Covid DNR order for learning disabilities.
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Fri 19 Feb 15:50

Quote:

The One Who Knocks, Fri 19 Feb 14:29

I still don`t see anything in that suggests that it is government policy though SIF? The link that you provided says it is NICE that is setting the fraility guidelines that surround dnr policy.
This will be quite lengthy but here is a bit from that link that I have copied and pasted.

"In December, the Care Quality Commission (CQC) published an interim report from its review into the application of DNR decisions during the Covid-19 pandemic and found that a combination of unprecedented pressure on care providers and other issues may have led to decisions concerning DNR orders being incorrectly conflated with other clinical assessments around critical care.

It concluded that it was unacceptable for decisions to be applied to groups of people of any description.

One of the issues highlighted was guidance from the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence (NICE) which recommended the use of the Clinical Frailty Scale as part of decision making for access to critical care.

This was based on an already existing body of evidence that suggested that older frail individuals receiving mechanical ventilation had increased odds of hospital mortality.

Yet fears began to increase about what would happen if the blanket application of a frailty measure in these circumstances was used for people with learning disabilities who would score as frail according to the scale. Revised guidance was issued by NICE five days later to make it clear that this was not an appropriate use of the tool.

But these fears became reality when charities began reporting numerous cases were DNRs were communicated to patients with disabilities insensitively or unclearly, and blanket decisions not to resuscitate were issued by some health and care providers."

Lessons to be learned and improvements to be made in my uneducated opinion but I certainly don`t think it is, as you said SIF, that this is eugenics being carried out on anyone with a learning disability.


NICE is a non departmental government body though.
Concerns were raised about this during the first wave. The fact the government did nothing to change it then and it is happening again either means they support it or are incompetent.
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 Re: Covid DNR order for learning disabilities.
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Fri 19 Feb 16:07

Again i can only go on what the information from the link you provided says. NICE set out revised guidelines to rectify the concerns raised by the independent regulator (the care and quality commission) and some NHS health boards and authorities have apparently failed to implement them.

Here is a report from charity Age Scotland about elderly patients, some mentally impaired, supposedly being pressured into signing dnr forms.
https://www.ageuk.org.uk/scotland/latest-news/2020/november/watch-serious-concerns-over-dnar-forms
Does this mean the snp administration are overseeing a system that is culling impaired and vulnerable elderly hospital patients? No of course it doesn`t but just like the cases in England & Wales concerning those with learning disabilities it illustrates that with a huge organisation such as the NHS (both sides of the border) mistakes can happen without it being some sort of sinister conspiracy.



Post Edited (Fri 19 Feb 16:11)
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 Re: Covid DNR order for learning disabilities.
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Fri 19 Feb 19:15

Quote:

The One Who Knocks, Fri 19 Feb 16:07

Here is a report from charity Age Scotland about elderly patients, some mentally impaired, supposedly being pressured into signing dnr forms.
https://www.ageuk.org.uk/scotland/latest-news/2020/november/watch-serious-concerns-over-dnar-forms
Does this mean the snp administration are overseeing a system that is culling impaired and vulnerable elderly hospital patients?



Yes it does and I'm disgusted by this as well. If something is wrong and the government knows it is going on and don't address it then yes they are culpable.
I am an SNP member and will look into this issue. If it has not been addressed you can be sure I will be asking questions of my MSP at the online meeting on Monday.
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 Re: Covid DNR order for learning disabilities.
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Fri 19 Feb 19:21

Unfortunately the snp must have known it was going on as Google searches reveal that the indications of this were back in the Spring and that charity report is from November.
https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/old-people-elderly-coronavirus-dnr-18325649

We all hate poverty, war, and injustice.
Unlike the rest of you squares.
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 Re: Covid DNR order for learning disabilities.
Topic Originator: EEP  
Date:   Fri 19 Feb 20:35

I think you will find a lot of the older generation have a do not resuscitate on their medical files.
My grandad did as he had heart disease and it wouldn’t have made any difference if he was to be saved using medical care and if he had caught covid then that would have been the end tbh.
He definitely had this written on his file before covid.

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 Re: Covid DNR order for learning disabilities.
Topic Originator: Rastapari  
Date:   Sat 20 Feb 07:31

Wait, people are shocked?

Carole Baskin fed Rasta to a tiger.
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 Re: Covid DNR order for learning disabilities.
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Sat 20 Feb 13:33

Quote:

Rastapari, Sat 20 Feb 07:31

Wait, people are shocked?


By what exactly?
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 Re: Covid DNR order for learning disabilities.
Topic Originator: Jbob  
Date:   Sat 20 Feb 18:59

Hope this thread doesn`t descend into another paranoia conspiracy theory fest.
Extremely serious matter in human, ethical and legal terms.

I would humbly suggest that anyone posting their views ensure that they are not posting anything that is not fact.

Bobs of the world unite
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 Re: Covid DNR order for learning disabilities.
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Sun 21 Feb 13:29

Quote:

Jbob, Sat 20 Feb 18:59

Hope this thread doesn`t descend into another paranoia conspiracy theory fest.
Extremely serious matter in human, ethical and legal terms.

I would humbly suggest that anyone posting their views ensure that they are not posting anything that is not fact.


Ha ha ha. That's never going to happen on here
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