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 Scotland's Shame
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Wed 17 Mar 12:37

Scotland is my adopted country, my home. I've lived here for 60 years and I have many friends here. I wouldn't dream of returning to my native Italy, other than for a short holiday, as I still have many relatives there and of course, the summer weather is sensational. Scotland is where my heart is and I love it here, but there is one shameful, 300 year old relic I'd like to see eradicated, but sadly, it might still be with us in another 300 years, it's so ingrained in the nation's fabric. A friend sent me the link below. It's a sad indictment of the abusers and those who do virtually nothing to address it :-

https://twohundredpercent.net/angela-haggertys-rangers-fans/



Not your average Sunday League player.


Post Edited (Wed 17 Mar 12:38)
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 Re: Scotland's Shame
Topic Originator: Luxembourg Par  
Date:   Wed 17 Mar 16:00

Dated 2018, but doesn`t really matter, as bugger all has changed in the 2.5 years since...

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 Re: Scotland's Shame
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Wed 17 Mar 22:15

A depressing read but nothing that is new to our ears. The difference is that in our age of digital democracy everyone now has a microphone and a camera. Including the village idiot. What was once confined to terracing fanaticism or bar room bluster on the day of a game is now enshrined in social media, anonymously. It is also sustained 24/7 in a way it was never before. The fact it is written gives it more power. We should not be alarmed, the sentiments are nothing new.

Progress? Not much. But I’m old enough to remember when more than insults were being hurled at rival supporters. I was sitting in the main stand, as was, at Easter Road in 1976 at a Hibs v Rangers game; we went there since it was a lovely August evening and my friend and I decided to take our wives to what we assumed was a safe area. Not such a wise move since a group of Rangers supporters slung some bottle across when a penalty was awarded against their team. I saw a woman with a bleeding head wound being taken down the steps by a man who had made the same judgment as us. That woman suffered more than any Glasgow Herald journalist online. So better insults than bottles.

What is the answer? Education? You’re having a laugh. Scottish schools are segregated so a bad starting point. But even so, did any teacher in any state or catholic school ever support bigotry? I doubt it. Teachers, and ministers and priests across the board, have a long track record of denouncing such reductive thinking. They have done their best, so we must look elsewhere.

sammer
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 Re: Scotland's Shame
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Wed 17 Mar 23:13

We live in a country where a Catholic can't be king/queen, where we continue to support religious segregation in schools, where people turn a blind eye to our two biggest football teams being fronts for religious hatred, where people can march through town centres singing about battles from hundreds of years ago.
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 Re: Scotland's Shame
Topic Originator: red-star-par  
Date:   Wed 17 Mar 23:28

To be honest on the day the ibrox outfit won the title this year, I posted on a Facebook football page, graciously congratulating them on their first ever title, and marvelling about this 9 year fairytale of Gretna-esque rise through the leagues since they were allowed to join the professional ranks.
I almost wished I hadn't bothered as for the next couple of days I was on the receiving end of some vile abuse. I was called every anti Catholic slur under the sun. I wouldn't have minded if there had been a bit wit thrown in but it was just imbecile after imbecile making threats and flinging out childish nonsense.
It seems I'm not alone in this as any dissent from within their own fans is also shut down by this baying mob.
They also don't like it much if you suggest that they all sat back in their armchairs and watched their club die and did nothing to stop it happening
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 Re: Scotland's Shame
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Thu 18 Mar 07:36

How did they know your religious persuasion, RSP?
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 Re: Scotland's Shame
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Thu 18 Mar 08:17

RSP, do you think your gracious congratulations was perhaps a little disingenuous though? Were you maybe trying to provoke a reaction, and while that doesn`t then excuse bigoted remarks or threats of violence, i think you got the reaction you expected.

We all hate poverty, war, and injustice.
Unlike the rest of you squares.
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 Re: Scotland's Shame
Topic Originator: Parplod  
Date:   Thu 18 Mar 09:46

I’m very much with Sammer on this one. Sectarianism is our National shame and an utter embarrassment. Policed dozens of Old Firm games and, on the one hand, being a football fan with no interest in either team the experience is truly sensational, but on the other hand it is troubling to watch around 50,000 people, the vast majority of whom are generally decent human beings, act completely irrationally for 90 minutes.
The biggest problem is the so called progress of social media which has given virtually free rein to the Neanderthals and other bile spewers.
Education? I watch groups of pals walk together through my village to the main road to get on to separate school buses for QAHS and St Columba’s. That tells them from a young age that they are different from one another.
I was brought up CoS but after 30 years of policing in Glasgow and seeing what people do in the name of religion, I now regard myself as having no faith. My wife is a Catholic and we have had many discussions around separate schooling. I attended a Glasgow city centre school where there were a number of Jewish pupils. Whilst the bulk of the school went to morning assembly, the local Rabbi came in and the Jewish kids had their own session. Surely we could have all denominational schools but allow periods for appropriate religious observance.
Perhaps politicians think that would be too big a step and risk upsetting the electorate?

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 Re: Scotland's Shame
Topic Originator: ParfectXI  
Date:   Thu 18 Mar 11:43

Rangers fans are completely brainwashed from an early age. “You’re either for them or against them” as they say in some Star Wars movie, it’s totally black or white to them with zero shades of grey the rest of the world enjoys.

Most Rangers fans are born and brought up with the ‘knowledge’ that the club can do no wrong and whatever they say is entirely the truth, if they decide that for instance the union is better than independence then blindly and loudly they will shout down anyone who disagrees with them with vociferously vile bile totally unconducive to a pleasant debate.

“We are the Peepul” and “nobody likes us and we don’t care” are 2 of their favourite chants, and you wouldn’t need a degree in psychology to realise that they see the rest of us as totally inferior. The scary thing is these thoughts are what propelled the world into a world war. There honestly isn’t too much difference in their thinking. As people who stand up online and give a differing opinion to them and as the poor columnist found out, you disagree with them you will receive the most despicable comments replied and PM’d to you including death threats and other disgusting comments.

The scary thing is though - there could be that unhinged person out there willing to carry out these acts.

Strangely enough Celtic fans support their team with the same passion yet doesn’t seem to have the same major problems. They do have a minority but in the whole they are far more relaxed about other clubs and fans.



Post Edited (Thu 18 Mar 11:48)
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 Re: Scotland's Shame
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Thu 18 Mar 12:23

Parplod - "Surely we could have all denominational schools but allow periods for appropriate religious observance."

Makes sense in principle - but in general terms terms kids go to RC faith school because their parents and grandparents etc.went there.

It`s a comfort zone scenario for all concerned.



Post Edited (Thu 18 Mar 12:24)
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 Re: Scotland's Shame
Topic Originator: Luxembourg Par  
Date:   Thu 18 Mar 13:29

"Most Rangers fans are born and brought up with the ‘knowledge’ that the club can do no wrong and whatever they say is entirely the truth, if they decide that for instance the union is better than independence then blindly and loudly they will shout down anyone who disagrees with them with vociferously vile bile totally unconducive to a pleasant debate."


Most of us who grew up in Scotland can think back, starting at primary school and developed into High school.
Think of the loudest, most obnoxious, argumentative tosspot bullies - almost guaranteed to be `mini-huns` from Rangers supporting households.

That was true at Lynburn & Touch primaries, at Woodmill, Queen Anne and Balwearie High Schools.

Maybe I was just unlucky, and was unfortunate exposed to the few `minority` bad eggs at each location...

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 Re: Scotland's Shame
Topic Originator: Big T Par  
Date:   Thu 18 Mar 13:37

It's ingrained in them and will never change. Scotland's Shame indeed.

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 Re: Scotland's Shame
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Thu 18 Mar 19:19

Not a bully, but one of the biggest sods in my school is closely linked with the Pars. Won't say a name or widtink will slap me (and it was years ago and the guy is probably totally different now).

All clubs have their idiots but the difference is that idiots in other teams don't tend to be bigots. We'll all give it big about Falkirk or The Wee Team but that's not because of their religious persuasion.

Is it as big an issue in Edinburgh and Dundee where there are arguably Catholic and Protestant teams?
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 Re: Scotland's Shame
Topic Originator: red-star-par  
Date:   Thu 18 Mar 20:39

Quote:

jake89, Thu 18 Mar 07:36

How did they know your religious persuasion, RSP?


That's the whole point though Jake. They didn't know my religious persuasion, they assumed, and they actually assumed wrong. Fans of the ibrox club are extremely bigoted. Some apologists will try and claim its only a minority, but sadly, its not
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 Re: Scotland's Shame
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Thu 18 Mar 20:50

We'll, if you re not with them you must be Catholic in the same way some on here assume anyone who doesn't support the SNP is a Tory 😂
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 Re: Scotland's Shame
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Fri 19 Mar 07:19

"What is the answer? Education? You’re having a laugh. Scottish schools are segregated so a bad starting point. But even so, did any teacher in any state or catholic school ever support bigotry? I doubt it. Teachers, and ministers and priests across the board, have a long track record of denouncing such reductive thinking. They have done their best, so we must look elsewhere."

It`s interesting that RC schools are often mentioned, whenever the subject of sectarian hatred/bigotry comes up. I know that an erudite scholar like Sammer will be fully aware of the history of RC schools in Scotland, but some posters may not. During the so called potato famine, many Irish Catholic families crossed the Irish Sea and settled in SW Scotland. The Catholic Church started to run separate schools for the Irish children to combat the endemic bullying in the predominantly Presbyterian Scottish schools. In 1918, RC schools were brought under and funded by the state. Are RC schools now an anachronism and do they contribute to bigotry and sectarian hatred?

I believe I`m in a fairly unique position, in that I attended and taught in both RC and non-denominal schools. Did I find a huge difference between the two? No and any differences are much less today than 50-60 years ago. After attending Aberdour PS for 3 years, my family moved to Dunfermline and I was sent to St Margaret`s RC PS. It came as a shock to be marched off to the nearby chapel for confessions once a month and to Mass when it was a Holiday of Obligation. More recently, I taught in Glenwood HS and St Columba`s, which has dropped the RC from its name. A local priest comes in to say Mass in the Assembly Hall on a few days of special significance in the year. Attendance by pupils is voluntary. In Glenwood, a minister would come in for school Assemblies, once a month.

The ironic thing about St Columba`s is that it has a significant number of pupils who are not from RC backgrounds but are sent there under freedom of choice by their parents, for whatever reasons. When I retired, some years ago, the topic came up in conversation with the Head. He told me that approx 400 of the school`s 930 pupils were non-Catholics. (How I detest that term.) Without those additional pupils, it`s unlikely the school would be viable, but more importantly, there are no major bullying issues. Conspicuously, Celtic and Rangers tops far outnumber Pars tops in PE. ☹️

Perhaps the time is ripe for integrating at least some RC schools as a pilot scheme. Fife might be a good place to start, as the bigotry here is nothing like as intense as it is in the West. Catholic kids could opt into RE lessons if they or their parents wanted. Will that finally end Scotland`s shame? We won`t know until we`ve tried it, but my feeling is that it`s a tad more complicated than that.



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: Scotland's Shame
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Fri 19 Mar 07:29

The new school at Duloch us going to be a combined campus for St C's and Woodmill.

Let's be honest here, how many so called Catholics or Protestants even go to church/chapel?
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 Re: Scotland's Shame
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Fri 19 Mar 09:29

Quote:

jake89, Fri 19 Mar 07:29

The new school at Duloch us going to be a combined campus for St C's and Woodmill.

That's not quite the same as integration, is it Jake? We already have St Margaret's and Commercial PS side by side, as well as Inzievar and Holy Name sharing a campus in Oakley.

Let's be honest here, how many so called Catholics or Protestants even go to church/chapel?


It's way less than 10% of the adult population and a lot less than that for kids. I remember a priest telling me that the decline in attendance goes back to the early 60s. The sectarian hatred has very little to do with organised religion - it's more of a tribal thing.



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: Scotland's Shame
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Fri 19 Mar 09:56

Tribal is about right. It'll be interesting how it goes with the combined schools. I don't think the rivalry between the two is religious, it's just two schools close by. Queen Anne used to have regular scraps with Dunfermline High.

According to the Press they'll share dining halls and sports facilities. Makes sense and hopefully reduced any rivalry. It seems to have worked in Edinburgh with St Oggies and Forrester.
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 Re: Scotland's Shame
Topic Originator: QPR_Par  
Date:   Fri 19 Mar 23:46

There’s no need for experimenting with mixed schools, it already happens in Scotland and has done for decades and it works.

I was brought up in the Borders where all the high schools are mixed denomination and there are no problems with bigotry or sectarianism.

I can’t speak for other towns but there is a RC primary school in Galashiels where the main threat of violence directed towards the pupils was the harsh punishments meted out by the nuns if the stories my mates told me are to believed.
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 Re: Scotland's Shame
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Sat 20 Mar 11:32

"I was brought up in the Borders where all the high schools are mixed denomination and there are no problems with bigotry or sectarianism."

I knew a retired police officer who served in Dumfries & Galloway - the local Rangers and Celtic supporters managed to run a joint bus to Old Firm games.

As above, the tribal loyalties of the central belt are much less ingrained in these rural areas.

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