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Topic Originator: PARrot
Date: Thu 27 Apr 04:19
There is no J in the Italian Alphabet.
Well maybe GG and Ramie knew.
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Thu 27 Apr 06:13
How is Juventus spelled in Italian then? Is it with an `I`?
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Topic Originator: DBP
Date: Thu 27 Apr 06:47
According to Google its name comes from Latin and not Italian - so its kinda a “loan word”
A bit like we borrow words from Italian like spaghetti, pizza, etc - I’m sure there’s non food related ones! …especially as English borrowed about 3/4 off its words from other languages
Another interesting fact (for me anyway) is that there’s no j, k, q, v, w, x, y or z in the gaelic alphabet
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Thu 27 Apr 07:57
There is also no K, W, X or Y in the Italian alphabet.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: Parboiled
Date: Thu 27 Apr 08:49
Italian alphabet spaghetti comes in smaller tins then…?
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Topic Originator: Angus_W
Date: Thu 27 Apr 13:56
....and now for a thick slice of Thin Lizzy.
“.........it ain’t over till the Pars score!”
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Topic Originator: PARrot
Date: Thu 27 Apr 17:10
Juventus was what I expected to see commented on first.
I was thinking on Julius Caeser, the, "gods" Jupiter and Juno. Then there is the well known quote, "Alea jacta est"
Being aware of these I lost a bet with my half Italian wife.
There are 21 letters in the official Italian alphabet. The other missing ones are listed above.
Apparently Mussolini banned all foreign words in 1929 and the 5 letters disappeared.
The Romans had 21 letters too but different ones. Italy only became a country 70 years before Mussolini
It was previously lots of regions with different languages and dialects. Mussolini banned them all and made Italian the official language
So the official alphabet is a very modern one with the necessary missing letters being borrowed and used again
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Topic Originator: Stanza
Date: Thu 27 Apr 20:44
Quote:
PARrot, Thu 27 Apr 17:10
Apparently Mussolini banned all foreign words in 1929 and the 5 letters disappeared.
The Romans had 21 letters too but different ones. Italy only became a country 70 years before Mussolini
It was previously lots of regions with different languages and dialects. Mussolini banned them all and made Italian the official language
The present Italian government is moving towards doing something similar, so in future you will be Signor Pappagallo ...
https://qz.com/the-italian-government-wants-to-ban-foreign-words-just-1850294377
_________________
 Support Dunfermline Athletic Disabled Supporters` Club (DADSC) when you shop online with one of 8000 firms: https://www.easyfundraising.org.uk/causes/dadsc[
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Fri 28 Apr 16:24
Quote:
PARrot, Thu 27 Apr 17:10
Juventus was what I expected to see commented on first.
I was thinking on Julius Caeser, the, "gods" Jupiter and Juno. Then there is the well known quote, "Alea jacta est"
Being aware of these I lost a bet with my half Italian wife.
There are 21 letters in the official Italian alphabet. The other missing ones are listed above.
Apparently Mussolini banned all foreign words in 1929 and the 5 letters disappeared.
The Romans had 21 letters too but different ones. Italy only became a country 70 years before Mussolini
It was previously lots of regions with different languages and dialects. Mussolini banned them all and made Italian the official language
So the official alphabet is a very modern one with the necessary missing letters being borrowed and used again
Your wife is far more knowledgeable than you, which isn`t difficult, bearing in mind you`re a birdbrain. Members of the crow family are the Einsteins of the bird world but parrots are nice but dim, by and large. 🙁
She is correct about tnere only being 21 letters in the Italian alphabet, but the missing ones are regularly used for foreign words, especially English. To get round this difficulty, combinations of letters are used to give different sounds to the same letters. e.g. golf is pronounced with a hard g as in English but Giona is pronounced Jonah. The i makes the g soft and is not pronounced. So Giovanni is pronounced Jovanni.
A bit complicated but the most beautiful and melodic language in the world. 🙂
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: Parboiled
Date: Fri 28 Apr 16:51
…Indeed GG as the works of Puccini,Verdi etc amply demonstrate for those like me with a cultured ear…
Post Edited (Fri 28 Apr 16:55)
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Fri 28 Apr 19:05
Ref: GG Riva on Italian:"A bit complicated but the most beautiful and melodic language in the world. 🙂"
Italian is great, French and Japanese also in the running I`d say.
But sometimes English can sound lovely too. For example, English with a Derry accent.
Here`s a lovely/funny rant by Derry-born Saoirse-Monica Jackson (as Erin Quinn), in the "still sticky" sketch. (Still sticky because they`ve been cleaning using mayonnaise instead of cleaning fluid.) The best bit`s from about 58 seconds, to 1 min 10.
https://youtu.be/GQ--B6vIcmw?t=36
Also, English spoken with a foreign accent e.g. Italian, Spanish, Japanese, often sounds lovely to me.
Post Edited (Tue 02 May 03:05)
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Topic Originator: red-star-par
Date: Fri 28 Apr 21:45
Very true, english sounds pretty good in most accents, other than an english accent
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Topic Originator: veteraneastender
Date: Mon 1 May 11:45
Mussolini got the trains to run on time - didn`t he ?
Then they hung him upside down in a Milan square in gratitude !!!
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Topic Originator: kelty_par
Date: Mon 1 May 17:12
Wasn`t even a square, it was a petrol garage IIRC.
Italian may only have 21 letters in the alphabet but at least they have words for the "missing" letters making it easy to spell out foreign words (like surnames when checking into a hotel). Of course they also use accents like in perchè (why), sì (yes) and sé (oneself). English gets a bad press for the multiple ways -ough can be pronounced but at least it doesn`t have gender and multiple words for the. But where Italian is better is having the word voi for you (plural). Scots could maybe claim youse and Americans say y`all but in formal English it`s sadly lacking.
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Topic Originator: veteraneastender
Date: Mon 1 May 17:23
Piazzale Loreto is a prominent square in Milan.
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Mon 1 May 17:47
Quote:
kelty_par, Mon 1 May 17:12
Wasn`t even a square, it was a petrol garage IIRC.
Italian may only have 21 letters in the alphabet but at least they have words for the "missing" letters making it easy to spell out foreign words (like surnames when checking into a hotel). Of course they also use accents like in perchè (why), sì (yes) and sé (oneself). English gets a bad press for the multiple ways -ough can be pronounced but at least it doesn`t have gender and multiple words for the. But where Italian is better is having the word voi for you (plural). Scots could maybe claim youse and Americans say y`all but in formal English it`s sadly lacking.
Voi, like you is both singular and plural though, Kelty. The informal and singular tu is the archaic thou in English and is only used in a religious context when referring to God.
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: kelty_par
Date: Mon 1 May 18:39
True enough GG but outside of formal letters and kids speaking to their elders, does anyone use Lei, Voi, etc any more? Genuine question by the way.
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Tue 2 May 03:02
Me and my wife were watching a Montalbano DVD this afternoon. I was struck by how very rhythmic the language is. I wondered how it came about. It`s almost as if somebody decided - we`re gonna make our language so it runs off the tongue and never goes flat, but is lively and has variety and highlights.
An article I googled: "The Musicality of the Italian Language"* gives some clues, though it`s hard for me to grasp much. Except that coincidentally, while the Montalbano DVD was on, I had said to my wife, "I`ma havina frieda egga ona toasta." So it rung a bell when I read that, "almost all Italian words end with a vowel."
Another, "almost unique characteristic" is said to be the use of double consonants, which "fascinate the foreign listener and transmit [the] sweet feeling of a rhythmic dance in the Italian language."
*https://scuolaromit.com/en/the-musicality-of-the-italian-language/
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Topic Originator: PARrot
Date: Tue 2 May 05:21
I had no idea where this was going to go when I did the OP, apart from a challenge re Juventus.
Glad I did it now. Awfy interesting.
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Topic Originator: Parboiled
Date: Tue 2 May 09:08
Red- star -par you are an Anglophobic pr*k in any accent/language from Albanian to Zulu.
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Tue 2 May 12:36
Quote:
Parboiled, Tue 2 May 09:08
Red- star -par you are an Anglophobic pr*k in any accent/language from Albanian to Zulu.
I disagree with him but the generic "English" accent, which is typically a southern accent, IS awful. The pronunciation is incredibly grating at times. There`s a bizarre thing where they remove R sounds from some words then add them into other words. So, for example, bath becomes barth whilst hard becomes hahd.
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Topic Originator: Tad Allagash
Date: Tue 2 May 13:09
There is no generic English accent, or even a generic southern accent. There are countless different dialects.
King Charles 3rd, Jonathan Ross and Stormzy all have southern English accents.
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Topic Originator: red-star-par
Date: Tue 2 May 13:34
Quote:
Parboiled, Tue 2 May 09:08
Red- star -par you are an Anglophobic pr*k in any accent/language from Albanian to Zulu.
Haha, from Albanian to Zulu, that`s a lot of languages. Thousands of `em. Coming from you that`s high praise indeed. You have proved time on time on here that if you can stick a "phobic" on the end of it, then it applies to you.
Anyway, I`m not Anglophobic, some of my best friends speak english. No real need for the over the top personal abuse, but then again, my opinion of you is extremely low, and have stated that in the past, so I`ll take it on the chin
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Topic Originator: veteraneastender
Date: Tue 2 May 13:43
Quote:
jake89, Tue 2 May 12:36
Quote:
Parboiled, Tue 2 May 09:08
Red- star -par you are an Anglophobic pr*k in any accent/language from Albanian to Zulu.
I disagree with him but the generic "English" accent, which is typically a southern accent, IS awful. The pronunciation is incredibly grating at times. There`s a bizarre thing where they remove R sounds from some words then add them into other words. So, for example, bath becomes barth whilst hard becomes hahd.
The one that gets me is - how does draw become drawer ?
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Tue 2 May 13:52
Quote:
kelty_par, Mon 1 May 18:39
True enough GG but outside of formal letters and kids speaking to their elders, does anyone use Lei, Voi, etc any more? Genuine question by the way.
The very formal Lei is very commonly used when addressing someone not known to you, especially in the North. e.g. Going into a shop. Voi is more common in the south among older people, but has largely fallen into misuse as it was favoured by Mussolini and his Fascists.
Using tu to address anyone you don`t know would normally be considered rude, but allowances are made for tourists and non native Italian speakers. 🙂
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: kelty_par
Date: Tue 2 May 14:34
Grazie, dottore.
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Tue 2 May 14:42
Quote:
onandupthepars, Tue 2 May 03:02
Me and my wife were watching a Montalbano DVD this afternoon. I was struck by how very rhythmic the language is. I wondered how it came about. It`s almost as if somebody decided - we`re gonna make our language so it runs off the tongue and never goes flat, but is lively and has variety and highlights.
An article I googled: "The Musicality of the Italian Language"* gives some clues, though it`s hard for me to grasp much. Except that coincidentally, while the Montalbano DVD was on, I had said to my wife, "I`ma havina frieda egga ona toasta." So it rung a bell when I read that, "almost all Italian words end with a vowel."
Another, "almost unique characteristic" is said to be the use of double consonants, which "fascinate the foreign listener and transmit [the] sweet feeling of a rhythmic dance in the Italian language."
*https://scuolaromit.com/en/the-musicality-of-the-italian-language/
The abundance of vowels does explain, at least in part, the attraction of Italian for non native speakers.
With regard to double consonants, these have to be pronounced separately.
e.g. seno is pronounced se-no, as you would expect but
senno is pronounced sen - no.
Similarly pizza is peets - tsa, not pisa, that`s a Tuscan city.
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Tue 2 May 15:08
Quote:
Tad Allagash, Tue 2 May 13:09
There is no generic English accent, or even a generic southern accent. There are countless different dialects.
King Charles 3rd, Jonathan Ross and Stormzy all have southern English accents.
I`ll have you know that Stormzy speaks only the Kings English!
Surely everyone is aware the North and South of England are separated by how they pronounce path?
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Wed 3 May 09:50
Ref: GG Riva
Date: Tue 2 May 14:42
"With regard to double consonants, these have to be pronounced separately.
e.g. seno is pronounced se-no, as you would expect but
senno is pronounced sen - no.
Similarly pizza is peets - tsa, not pisa, that`s a Tuscan city."
-----------------------------------------------
That works really well, when I say "sen - no", it sounds Italian.
With "pizza", do you pronounce it as if there is a "t" in it? When I say "pizza", it doesn`t have a "t" sound, I think it has an epiglotal stop, like when I say "bar mitzvah", I don`t pronounce the "t".
I`m getting a bit interested in Italian. Don`t they say learning a language can help stave off dementia?
I tried learning German once using the "Teach Yourself German" book, but only got as far as "das ist ein stuhl" (about page 4 🙂)
Italian looks easier, according to this article*: "Italian pronunciation is actually very, very easy. In fact, one thing that sets Italian apart from other languages is that the pronunciation rules are absolutely constant. Italian is completely phonetic. This means that once you learn the rules, you can correctly pronounce ANY Italian word you see written down, even if you’ve never heard it spoken before!"
*https://storylearning.com/learn/italian/italian-tips/italian-pronunciation-guide
Post Edited (Wed 03 May 09:54)
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Topic Originator: DBP
Date: Wed 3 May 10:21
That statement about sticking to the rules is also true in gaelic BTW
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Wed 3 May 10:32
Is Gaelic quite straightforward to learn? I`m not a natural with learning a language - gave up on Latin as soon as I could, and got the lowest pass mark for "O" level French. I`d like to give learning a language a go, but it`d have to be one of the simplest languages to learn. Italian? Gaelic?
Post Edited (Wed 03 May 10:36)
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Topic Originator: DBP
Date: Wed 3 May 14:26
I`d guess the easiest language to learn is one where you have a genuine motivation for learning it...
e.g. do you go somewhere regularly on holiday/family member/enjoy something cultural about that country, etc
that aside, I think Italian is probably easier to get going with it but I`m guessing then it will become harder as the nuances etc appear.
gaelic will be a harder start, but once pronounciation/grammer is locked in, it basically sticks to the rules so gets easier over time
I suppose the biggest thing is opportunity to actually use them - without trips to Italy or watching Italian detective series, it`s probably not that easy... whereas with Gaelic, it`s only really spoken in outer Hebrides as a first language and everyone who speaks it will be fluent in English, but if you go to highlands a lot then you will appreciate the place names and see signage etc
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Topic Originator: Parboiled
Date: Wed 3 May 14:41
You don’t need to go to the heilands and to see Gaelic signage, it’s plastered all over emergency vehicles, govt buildings, rail stations etc from the borders to the far north
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Topic Originator: parsmad68
Date: Wed 3 May 14:50
It is handy to know Gaelic when you are walking or cycling in the highlands as the language paints a picture of what the land is like. The place names are typically descriptive of the land.
Example Ceann Loch Moidert
Head of Loch moidert
Eilean Garbh
Rough islands
Paps of Jura
Ladies bosoms of Jura
And many more
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Topic Originator: DBP
Date: Wed 3 May 15:28
That`s true parboiled and I`m sure you`ll agree that its good to show our heritage, and you`ll have bbc Alba and radio nan Gàidheal to listen to add as well as several places to go in Edinburgh and Glasgow where speakers congregate for coffee chat, religious ceremonies etc
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Thu 4 May 15:10
Ref: parsmad68 like
Wed 3 May 14:50
"It is handy to know Gaelic when you are walking or cycling in the highlands as the language paints a picture of what the land is like...[e.g.]
Paps of Jura
Ladies bosoms of Jura
And many more"
----------------------------------------------------------
Buttocks of Bannockburn:
Ecclefechan - Fighting? an Eccles cake (If ye don`t mind, I`d rather just eat mine 🙂)
Post Edited (Thu 04 May 15:13)
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Thu 4 May 16:58
Quote:
onandupthepars, Wed 3 May 09:50
Ref: GG Riva
Date: Tue 2 May 14:42
"With regard to double consonants, these have to be pronounced separately.
e.g. seno is pronounced se-no, as you would expect but
senno is pronounced sen - no.
Similarly pizza is peets - tsa, not pisa, that`s a Tuscan city."
-----------------------------------------------
That works really well, when I say "sen - no", it sounds Italian.
With "pizza", do you pronounce it as if there is a "t" in it? When I say "pizza", it doesn`t have a "t" sound, I think it has an epiglotal stop, like when I say "bar mitzvah", I don`t pronounce the "t".
I`m getting a bit interested in Italian. Don`t they say learning a language can help stave off dementia?
I tried learning German once using the "Teach Yourself German" book, but only got as far as "das ist ein stuhl" (about page 4 🙂)
Italian looks easier, according to this article*: "Italian pronunciation is actually very, very easy. In fact, one thing that sets Italian apart from other languages is that the pronunciation rules are absolutely constant. Italian is completely phonetic. This means that once you learn the rules, you can correctly pronounce ANY Italian word you see written down, even if you’ve never heard it spoken before!"
*https://storylearning.com/learn/italian/italian-tips/italian-pronunciation-guide
You`re maybe right about the pronunciation of pizza. To me it sounds like there`s a "ts" in it. Best way to teach yourself would be to get a CD language course. e.g. Linguaphone. I did it with Spanish as it`s similar to Italian. I put it on an MP3 player and listened to it when I went for a run. Really hard at first - thought I`d never crack it, but as I listened again and again, it started to click. Now I have a decent grasp of it.
Not your average Sunday League player.
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