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 TARTANS
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Fri 14 Jun 00:41

Responding to a post on the fitba forum thread, ‘Cheeky wee dig at the Scottish.’

Re: Parboiled, Thu 13 Jun 06:53

“Kilts were never worn by lowland Scots so this mass display of tatty tartan is a national embarrassment..or should be.”

Families who had someone in a Scottish regiment would have been proud of seeing their relative wearing the tartan kilt. And by regiments and regimental bands parading through lowland towns, no doubt tartans and kilts were seen by many as indicative of Scottishness. I can’t imagine folk’d be poo-pooing kilts and tartans as some do today. My gran’s dad was in the Argylls from 1886, and my gran said they sometimes got an old regimental kilt (many yards of material) and made all kinds of tartan stuff for themselves and the house. What I’m suggesting is that, there may not have been many people wearing kilts daily in Dunfermline, but I believe they were long, long ago seen as distinctly Scottish items by ordinary folk.

So I take issue with what you seem to imply, that kilts were “never” seen to be Scottish by lowlanders.

And no, I don’t go along with your “tatty tartan” idea either, but each tae their ain.

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 Re: TARTANS
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Fri 14 Jun 00:45

From the fitba forum thread, ‘Cheeky wee dig at the Scottish.’

Ref: Paralex, Thu 13 Jun 11:34

“Let the fans wear the tatty kilts and the "hey yoo Jimmy hats" complete with ginger tresses, it`s a football fiesta, not a wedding.”

I agree.

On the subject of tartans, here we are about 200 years after Sir Walter Scott’s boost to their popularity, and some folk still want to promote the idea that tartans are not authentically Scottish.

How long does it take for something to become traditional and authentic in a culture? If tartans aren’t to be considered authentic, what about the Pars wearing black and white stripes, which they’ve only done for a hundred-odd years? Since we didn’t originally wear black and white stripes, does that mean our wearing them now is phoney, or unauthentic?

Tartans go back a long, long way in Scotland, signifying particular areas. Later, they became associated with clans. That association may only have started, or become widespread, from 1822, but that’s still a lengthy tradition – a tradition with Scottish clans and families, that developed from a far longer tradition of tartans worn in Scotland.

I love to see the rampart lion flags and tartans. I like to see folk wearing tartan day to day.

Up the tartans! Up the kilts! Up everybody who’s jealous of our tartan heritage!



Braw!



Post Edited (Fri 14 Jun 08:10)
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 Re: TARTANS
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Fri 14 Jun 07:51

This is what folk have to understand about tartans in Scotland - they`ve been around for heck of a long time. It`s the connections to particular clans that are more `recent` (still at least two centuries old), and of course, as part of our living tartan tradition and heritage, new tartans are being designed all the time.

`You Can Now Wear a Re-creation of Scotland`s Oldest Tartan.` (It might be the oldest we can recreate, but other sources say even it is far from being the earliest in Scotland.) Here it is: a braw auld tartan, dated to between 1500 and 1655.




Given the “more rustic nature of the cloth,” the tartan “is not something you would associate with a king or someone of high status...It is more likely to be an outdoor working garment.”

“Any cloth or clothing from the 16th century that is not from royalty or nobility is pretty rare, and so to have this piece which predates the clan tartan mania of the 19th century, worn or used by an ordinary person, is pretty incredible.”

sources:

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/you-can-now-wear-a-recreation-of-a-500-year-old-scottish-tartan-180983670/

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/a-500-year-old-scottish-tartan-fabric-was-found-in-a-highland-bog-180981928/







Post Edited (Fri 14 Jun 09:01)
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 Re: TARTANS
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Fri 14 Jun 10:06

Early records of tartans in Scotland:


‘The earliest certain written reference to tartan by name is in the 1532–33 accounts of the Treasurer of Scotland: "Ane uthir tartane galcoit gevin to the king be the Maister Forbes" (`Another tartan coat given to the king by the Master Forbes`), followed not long after by a 1538 Scottish Exchequer accounting of clothing to be ordered for King James V of Scotland, which referred to "heland tertane to be hoiss" (`Highland tartan to be hose`). (1)

A Scottish Highland man and woman in tartan, c. 1603 - 1616 from a travel journal by H. Tielsch. (2)



-------------------------------------------------

sources:

(1)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartan, referring to
A Dictionary of the Older Scottish Tongue (up to 1700).
& Sources in the National Records of Scotland". TartanRegister.gov.uk. Scottish Register of Tartans. 2020
& Old & Rare Scottish Tartans? Stewart, D. W. (1893), pp. 4–5.

(2)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartan#/media/File:Highlanders_by_Hieronymus_Tielsch,_c._1603%E2%80%931616.png
Ultimately from Huntington Library MSS: HM 25863, f. 28r. Intermediary source: https://www.tideproject.uk/2016/10/25/humanism-in-the-desert-transculturality-at-the-huntington-library/ (which credits one Lauren Working with the photo from the manuscript). For more information on the manuscript, see: https://academic.oup.com/nq/article-abstract/67/3/358/5872806?redirectedFrom=fulltext and for more information on the image, see: Dunbar, John Telfer, History of Highland Dress, 1962/1979, p. 53

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 Re: TARTANS
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Fri 14 Jun 10:34

Portrait of Flora MacDonald by Allan Ramsey and Joseph Van Aken, 1749.

`Jacobite women continued wearing tartan during the proscription... [this] is a Tullibardine area pattern, later the Murray of Tullibardine clan tartan.`

Might continued Jacobite support in the lowlands have had a hand in popularising tartans?

Rather than just a Highland thing, should we think of tartans and their rise in popularity in these terms - as a symbol of Scottish families`military associations, Jacobite support, and resentment towards the English after Culloden, including the ban on tartans and their meddling in Scotland generally?





source:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartan#/media/File:Floramacdonald2.jpg



Post Edited (Fri 14 Jun 10:39)
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 Re: TARTANS
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Fri 14 Jun 11:20

Tartan as a symbol of Scottish nationalism/ identity:

‘Tartan had already seen more nationwide use from 1707, as a Scottish nationalism symbol against union with England.’ (1)



`The New Fashion, or The Scotsman in Paris", from a series of Parisian fashion prints, 1815.` (2)

Mind you, my gran said the kilt should come to just below the knee!


`Before the clan tartans rush began in 1815, tartan was already being aggressively marketed to the general public as "fancy" cloth with names that commemorated famous events and people...Some of the designs by leading weaver Wilsons of Bannockburn by this period were considered recognisable on sight.` (3)

-----------------

sources:


(1) wikipedia `Tartans`, referring to Banks & de La Chapelle (2007) p. 75

(2) Paris: N. Finart & Basset (artists); Blanchard (printmaker) - Ultimately from http://hdl.handle.net/10934/RM0001.COLLECT.490932 - Nederlands Rijksmuseum, Object number: RP-P-2009-1508

(3) wikipedia `Tartans`, referring to Telfer Dunbar (1979), p. 147



Post Edited (Fri 14 Jun 11:22)
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 Re: TARTANS
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Fri 14 Jun 12:41

I believe far too much is made of the visit of King George the Fourth to Edinburgh in 1822, and the (later) wearing of tartan by Queen Victoria. My own take on it at the moment is that by the time Georgy-Porgy arrived in Embra, tartan had been a Scottish symbol for donkey’s years, and so he thought it would be good PR to wear it, and Sir Walter Scott - far from inventing the tartans industry or sookin’ up - made sure there was plenty of it about, so that Georgy-Porgy would be sure of where he was.

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 Re: TARTANS
Topic Originator: Paralex  
Date:   Fri 14 Jun 12:41

Very informative posts onandupthepars. I first wore a kilt when I was 21. I borrowed it from a friend so as to wear it on our two man trip around Europe. Kilts weren`t as popular then as they are now. I would have complained if my mother had dressed me up in a kilt, for a wedding, as a kid. One guy in our Secondary School in Glasgow made the bad mistake of coming to school in a kilt. I can`t imagine the mental turmoil he endured, from the sideways glances and negative comments.
I then bought my own kilt for my son`s wedding and have worn it regularly at weddings and ceilidhs since. It goes down very well with the international students who come to our ceilidhs and they queue up to get a selfie with the kilt wearer. Seemingly my name would suggest that I should be part of the McKintosh clan. I didn`t choose their tartan for my kilt but chose one which I liked better.

Both my Grandfathers from Kirkcaldy and Burntisland served in the Black Watch in Flanders. One came through the whole of the first world war and blamed his wet kilt in the trenches for his chronic arthritis. However, I`m sure trousers could have become equally wet.

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 Re: TARTANS
Topic Originator: widtink  
Date:   Fri 14 Jun 14:08

Here`s a question for those in the know.
I know I can wear the tartan of my surname.... But can I also wear the tartan of my surname at birth .
Mother remarried in the 1980s so I got my name changed officially.
Just wondered .
Only ever worn the kilt three times and I`m sure all three times I wore Caledonia which apparently is for anyone.
Cheers all
Edit .... Actually it was pride of Scotland tartan I wore.

Admin

Post Edited (Fri 14 Jun 14:09)
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 Re: TARTANS
Topic Originator: Luxembourg Par  
Date:   Sat 15 Jun 01:01

Quote:

widtink, Fri 14 Jun 14:08

Here`s a question for those in the know.
I know I can wear the tartan of my surname.... But can I also wear the tartan of my surname at birth .
Mother remarried in the 1980s so I got my name changed officially.
Just wondered .
Only ever worn the kilt three times and I`m sure all three times I wore Caledonia which apparently is for anyone.
Cheers all
Edit .... Actually it was pride of Scotland tartan I wore.


You can wear whatever tartan you wish matey.

I have one from my paternal line (Scott), which is a dour green, Argyll Sutherland Highlanders (ex-army surplus, similar to Black Watch, which most Fifers will have family affiliation to)., and a Scottish National tartan

In short, as long as a modicum of respect is shown, nobody will give you grief over whichever tartan you choose.
Pick one you have a family link to, a connection with, or simply one that you like.

I like the ‘Dress Gordon’ - similar to the Pars Tartan, but haven’t got around to purchasing yet.

Bash on, and enjoy!



Post Edited (Sat 15 Jun 01:19)
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 Re: TARTANS
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Sat 15 Jun 14:35

"Families who had someone in a Scottish regiment would have been proud of seeing their relative wearing the tartan kilt. And by regiments and regimental bands parading through lowland towns, no doubt tartans and kilts were seen by many as indicative of Scottishness."

An observation in respect of Scottish infantry units in their traditional regimental areas - personnel in Lowland regiments wouldn`t be in kilt order, except Pipes and Drums, tartan trews is their standard dress order.

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 Re: TARTANS
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sun 16 Jun 03:23

You may well be right about Lowland infantry in trews, VEE, but I`ve no doubt seeing pipers and drummers in kilts was something that many folk readily connected with being Scottish, just as I did as a boy when I saw them marching into the Glen.

Besides which, my gran`s dad was a Drill Sergeant, he wasn`t Pipes and Drums, but he had a full regimental Highland dress uniform, including the scarlet doublet, kilt, feather bonnet etc., that he sometimes wore; so apparently kilts weren`t just worn by Pipes and Drums. My gran had a photo hanging above her bed, of him in full dress uniform, taken 1903. She said she saw him dressed like that "at a funeral and that kind o` thing."

That obviously wasn`t something that just started in 1903, but would have gone back as far as there were pipers and drummers and other army folk wearing kilts. I don`t know how far back that would take it, but I do think seeing them must have made an immediate Scottish/kilts connection in many folks` minds, as it did in mine, and reinforces the connection to this day.

I don`t see how anyone who had a relative who wore regimental Highland dress, could fail to be impressed,by the overall appearance as something very Scottish, and kilts being a part of that.


`The kilt as we know it today originated in the first quarter of the eighteenth century. Known to the Gaelic-speaking Highlander as the “little wrap” (feileadh beag), it evolved from the “big wrap” (feileadh mor), or belted plaid...

...`The kilt as worn today is the lower half of the belted plaid with the back pleats stitched up...Not long after the kilt’s invention, the Diskilting Act was enacted in the wake of the Jacobite Uprising of 1745...The Diskilting Act made an exception for those serving in the armed forces...[and] by about 1810...the Highland regiments had replaced the belted plaid with the little kilt.`

source:

https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/kilt/hd_kilt.htm#:~:text=The%20kilt%20as%20we%20know,in%20the%20late%20sixteenth%20century.



Post Edited (Sun 16 Jun 20:06)
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 Re: TARTANS
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Sun 16 Jun 09:26

I assume your grandad was Black Watch ? Fife is part of their traditional recruiting areas. If so, that`s why he`d wear the kilt as a member of a Highland regiment of the (infantry) line.

The others were Seaforth Highlanders, Queens Own Cameron Highlanders, Gordon Highlanders and Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders - sadly nearly all no longer in existence in their original form, mostly due to various amalgamations etc.

Lowland regiments wore tartan trews, authorised in the Army Reforms of 1881, although the Highland Light Infantry (a Lowland regiment, despite the name) were permitted the kilt in 1947, however they reverted to trews in 1958 upon amalgamation.

Pipes and Drums wore the kilt.

It would have been unusual, but not unheard of, for a Highland battalion to appear in a town within the recruiting area of a Lowland regiment - that`s where kilted Ps&Ds would normally have been seen in public when their local battalion was parading.

There are anomalies within this general view - dress regulations of the tribal family of regiments within the British Army is a complicated study.

In 2006 all regiments of the newly formed Royal Regiment of Scotland were authorised to wear the kilt.

The expense of variation of dress has always been an argument for those who advocate a single Corps of Infantry with only standard dress code - something vehemently rejected by the wider establishment of the miltary.

Save us from the beancounters !!!

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 Re: TARTANS
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sun 16 Jun 14:08

Interesting VEE, but I think this bit of your post could be misleading:

"Lowland regiments wore tartan trews, authorised in the Army Reforms of 1881, although the Highland Light Infantry (a Lowland regiment, despite the name) were permitted the kilt in 1947, however they reverted to trews in 1958 upon amalgamation."


What d`you make of this, from a post on Quora:

---

"Did Scottish soldiers wear kilts in combat during WW1, or were they just for ceremonial purposes?

Yes they did. Kilts were worn by all the Highland Regiments throughout the Great War. Note that only line infantry Highland Regiments wore the kilt:

Royal Highlanders (Black Watch)
Seaforth Highlanders
Queen`s Own Cameron Highlanders
Gordon Highlanders
Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders

Edited to add - In addition to the above, the kilt was also worn by several battalions of the Territorial Force:

9th Battalion the Royal Scots
6th and 9th Battalions the Highland Light Infantry (Glasgow Highlanders)
14th (County of London) Battalion the London Regiment (London Scottish)
10th Battalion the King`s (Liverpool) Regiment (Liverpool Scottish)"

---

I still think kilts were far more common to Scottish folk, and earlier, than many would suggest.

My gran`s dad was in the Argylls - Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders. She said they were based at Stirling Castle.



Post Edited (Sun 16 Jun 14:11)
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 Re: TARTANS
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Sun 16 Jun 18:11

These were the anomalies I mentioned.
As a general rule Highland regiments were in kilts.

Post Edited (Sun 16 Jun 18:13)
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 Re: TARTANS
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sun 16 Jun 19:39

MORE ABOUT TARTANS

Apparently Sir Walter Scott`s first `Waverley` novel, published (anonomously) in 1814, boosted demand for tartans. But it seems to have been growing for some time before that:

Wilson`s of Bannockburn, which had started in the 1760s, (1)

`...quickly cornered the growing market for tartan in southern Scotland and elsewhere, and especially for the lucrative supply of cloth to the military and the increasing number of Highland Regiments. The need for mass cloth production to meet large orders such as the military, led to a requirement for standard colours and patterns in order to maintain quality control. These standardised colours and patterns devised by Wilsons were certainly in use by them by the 1780`s and their range continued to grow with the increase in the demand for tartan... Wilson`s started to name some of their patterns after towns and districts in the latter half of the 18th century. Towards the end of the century the use of family names for tartans becomes apparent and this practice increased over the next fifty years and in 1819 they compiled their in-house reference manual `The 1819 Key Pattern Book`.(2)

It seems that, not only did major textile mills such as Wilson`s benefit, but perhaps also small scale individual weavers produced tartan cloth on smaller looms.

I like what Brenna Barks, in a 2015 article, has to say about tartan culture in Scotland. It is `a culture that has endured cultural genocide and remade itself and did so with eyes wide open, but redefining itself without outside influence, expanding what was given it into the present day tartan industry and register. A living, breathing, modern culture that thrives and moves with the times," (3)



(1) https://albanach.org/wilson-of-bannockburn-colors-1cf7c832915f

(2) https://www.scottishtartans.co.uk/history.htm

(3) https://frockflicks.com/the-real-deal-on-tartan-kilts-and-outlander-costumes/



Post Edited (Sun 16 Jun 20:10)
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 Re: TARTANS
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sun 16 Jun 20:00

MORE ABOUT KILTS



Portrait of John Campbell, chief cashier (i.e. boss?) of the Royal Bank of Scotland, (Edinburgh?), painted 1749?

Looks like he`s shown wearing a kilt. Suggesting it was a fashionable item in Edinburgh at that time?

(He is an interesting character. In 1745, Edinburgh was under the control of Bonnie Prince Charlie. Campbell and the directors agreed to redeem, in gold coins, the equivalent of a million pounds worth of Scottish notes, the cash being thought to be required to pay the Prince`s army.)

https://thebhc.org/es/abstract-viewer/popup/2118



Post Edited (Sun 16 Jun 20:16)
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 Re: TARTANS
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Mon 17 Jun 10:47

Quote:

onandupthepars, Sun 16 Jun 14:08

Interesting VEE, but I think this bit of your post could be misleading:

"Lowland regiments wore tartan trews, authorised in the Army Reforms of 1881, although the Highland Light Infantry (a Lowland regiment, despite the name) were permitted the kilt in 1947, however they reverted to trews in 1958 upon amalgamation."


What d`you make of this, from a post on Quora:

---

"Did Scottish soldiers wear kilts in combat during WW1, or were they just for ceremonial purposes?

Yes they did. Kilts were worn by all the Highland Regiments throughout the Great War. Note that only line infantry Highland Regiments wore the kilt:

Royal Highlanders (Black Watch)
Seaforth Highlanders
Queen`s Own Cameron Highlanders
Gordon Highlanders
Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders

Edited to add - In addition to the above, the kilt was also worn by several battalions of the Territorial Force:

9th Battalion the Royal Scots
6th and 9th Battalions the Highland Light Infantry (Glasgow Highlanders)
14th (County of London) Battalion the London Regiment (London Scottish)
10th Battalion the King`s (Liverpool) Regiment (Liverpool Scottish)"

---

I still think kilts were far more common to Scottish folk, and earlier, than many would suggest.

My gran`s dad was in the Argylls - Argyll
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 Re: TARTANS
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Mon 17 Jun 17:26

VEE, could you repost what you were trying to say on Mon 17 at 10:47?

The reason I put it that part of your post could be misleading is that, the wearing of trews by Lowland regiments has no bearing on the wearing of kilts by Highland regiments who, despite the name, were not manned only by Highlanders, nor were they all stationed in the Highlands. On the contrary, I gave the A&SH as an example of a Highland regiment stationed in the Lowlands, at Stirling Castle.

I have the service record of my gran`s dad. Unfortunately it doesn`t specify where his many different postings, with different battalions of the A&SH were to, and I only know what my gran told me about them. However, when I was researching his service in the South African War, it was to the Regimental HQ of the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders, Stirling Castle, that I wrote for information. I also visited the A&SH Museum at the Castle.

Hence, I believe there has been a kilt-wearing regimental presence in Stirling and our area of the Lowlands since 1873, and perhaps earlier.

I put it that many different battalions, of the various kilt-wearing regiments would have been seen in many Lowland towns and cities (and far beyond.)

How often did they parade in public, with or without their bands? Monthly? What impression did the Battalions appearance have on the public, in terms of making the kilt/Scottish connection? I suggest highly significant.

I put it that, far from being anti-kilts, the great majority of the public who saw them were impressed. I imagine the parades in the auld days were a great delight and spectacle - long before TV etc.

I especially recall an article I read decades ago, describing the A&SH Pipe band parading at Chatham, where a battalion was based, (1908 I think.) It said that the Drum Major would throw his mace over the railway bridge and catch it on the other side as they came through.

In those and other days past, I doubt very much if there were many Lowlanders who thought of the Highland regiments`kilts as a purely Highland thing. (As Parboiled and VEE seem to regard them.) They were Highland in name only, part of the spectacular Scottish dress uniform worn by many Lowlanders in the Lowlands and elsewhere.



Post Edited (Mon 17 Jun 17:35)
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 Re: TARTANS
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Mon 17 Jun 18:43

Something went wrong earlier - was using iPhone, nor sure what.

The layman`s geographical perception of Highland and Lowland simply doesn`t apply where the miltary are concerned

For Army territorial purposes Stirling is in the Highlands, so no anomaly with the A&SH spiritual home of Stirling Castle.

Clackmannanshire is also A&SH for recruiting purposes.

Fife is Black Watch country - and not in the Highlands.

Scottish regiments could be stationed as garrison battalions in any location within the UK - where the public would see them in various uniforms depending of duties undertaken.

Highland regiments wore their kilt and Lowland their tartan trews - except for Pipe and Drums in the latter - with a few anomalies elsewhere to confuse the issue.

Notice the senior Drum Major on parade here at 0:59 - in tartan trews, his background is Lowland regiment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBYVmnMFMtA

The Ps&Ds of the Scots Guards are also kilted, likewise the Royal Scots Dragoon Guards - they are an armoured formation.

It can be quite a complicated picture !!!

Incidentally, the Argylls had a box pleat kilt, significantly heavier that the standard pattern.

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 Re: TARTANS
Topic Originator: PARrot  
Date:   Mon 17 Jun 19:45

When I went to hire a kilt for my wedding, the guy asked me, "What`s the tartan?

I told him she would be wearing a white dress.

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 Re: TARTANS
Topic Originator: Paralex  
Date:   Tue 18 Jun 00:44

Just hope the "tart" doesn`t refer to this forum Parrot, or if she does, that she has a good sense of humour.

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 Re: TARTANS
Topic Originator: PARrot  
Date:   Tue 18 Jun 01:32

Quote:

Paralex, Tue 18 Jun 00:44

Just hope the "tart" doesn`t refer to this forum Parrot, or if she does, that she has a good sense of humour.


Lol. I already got my tatties for that one. Years ago.

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 Re: TARTANS
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Tue 18 Jun 02:16

I like both tartan kilts and trews. Drum Major looks good in trews:



But I like him even more in a kilt:







Post Edited (Tue 18 Jun 02:21)
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 Re: TARTANS
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Tue 18 Jun 11:00

It`s all changed since the establishment of the Royal Regiment of Scotland 2006 which was pretty much a "shotgun wedding" that the individual Scottish regiments did not want.

Kilt is now the No1. dress uniform for all.

The customs and dress traditions of the antecedent regiments were combined for review which resulted in the new RRoS regulations - a bit from "here" with another bit from "there" etc.

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 Re: TARTANS
Topic Originator: Back_oh_the_net  
Date:   Wed 19 Jun 13:17

VEE my grandad was in the kosb and wore a kilt pretty sure he even fought on the beaches wearing his kilt as well or it could have just been another of his word famous stories
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 Re: TARTANS
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Wed 19 Jun 16:13

No 1 dress for KOSB is trews as a Lowland regiment.

Kilt is not regulation.
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 Re: TARTANS
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Thu 20 Jun 18:08

As you should know, VEE, tartan trews were worn by Highlanders long before the Lowland regiments. Therefore, any prejudice against tartan kilts on the basis that kilts were Highland, should be equally aimed at Lowlanders wearing tartan trews.

On the other hand, it can`t truly be said that tartans, kilts, or trews are not authentically Scottish, as Scotland includes both the Highlands and Lowlands.

And Back oh the net, VEE is only posting stuff he`s read. He doesn`t seem able to add anything to that, whereas we know there`s a lot of experiences of people you won`t find in books and websites. So, if your grandad says he fought in his kilt, it could be true. I don`t think every rule, military or otherwise, is always followed to the letter as VEE would have us believe.



Post Edited (Thu 20 Jun 18:12)
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 Re: TARTANS
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Thu 20 Jun 19:40

" I don`t think every rule, military or otherwise, is always followed to the letter as VEE would have us believe."

I thought anomalies might give a clue - seemingly not.

"And Back oh the net, VEE is only posting stuff he`s read."

You couldn`t be more wrong if you tried.



Post Edited (Thu 20 Jun 21:04)
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 Re: TARTANS
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Thu 20 Jun 20:15

Fascinating discussion, guys. Weren`t Scottish soldiers at one time nicknamed `The Ladies from Hell` by their adversaries which suggests they fought in their kilts?
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 Re: TARTANS
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Thu 20 Jun 21:03

All five Highland regiments served in kilts during WW1 - plus the Royal Scots and Highland Light Infantry - the exception (anomalies) to the general rule.

Conditions in the trenches soon raised problems with keeping them clean and undamaged - this resulted in wrap round syle kilt aprons with a front pocket in place of a purse or sporran.

The kilt was still in evidence at the start of WW2 - but the military authorities soon recognised they were unsuitable for active service.

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 Re: TARTANS
Topic Originator: buffy  
Date:   Thu 20 Jun 21:44

Our family tartan is Douglas. Lovely so it is.

”Buffy’s Buns are the finest in Fife”, J. Spence 2019”

Post Edited (Thu 20 Jun 21:44)
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 Re: TARTANS
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Thu 20 Jun 22:24

As worn in tartan trews dress by the long disbanded Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) - and still is by a non Scottish serving regiment.



Post Edited (Thu 20 Jun 22:26)
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 Re: TARTANS
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Fri 21 Jun 01:33

Ref: veteraneastender Thu 20 Jun 19:40

OAUTP:" I don`t think every rule, military or otherwise, is always followed to the letter as VEE would have us believe."

VEE: I thought anomalies* might give a clue - seemingly not.

OAUTP: "And Back oh the net, VEE is only posting stuff he`s read."

VEE: You couldn`t be more wrong if you tried.

-------------------------------

😃 As rebuttals go, they don`t get much vaguer or punier!

You made the glaring assumption that my Gran’s dad (born, raised and died in Dunfermline) was in the Black Watch – after I’d stated in the first post of this thread that he was in the Argylls!😃

What other glaring assumptions have you made?

"For Army territorial purposes Stirling is in the Highlands."According to - who? Yourself?

Why would Stirling need to be in the Highlands, when, as you claim, Clackmannanshire (Lowlands) is “A&SH for recruiting purposes. And ”Fife,(Lowlands) including Dunfermline, is “Black Watch country” – even although Black Watch was a Highland regiment that was part of the Highland Brigade?

In any case, it becomes clearer that Lowland people in Dunfermline, Clackmannanshire and Stirling have long been familiar with kilt-wearing local men in those so-called Highland regiments. As I posted earlier:

"Families who had someone in a Scottish regiment would have been proud of seeing their relative wearing the tartan kilt. And by regiments and regimental bands parading through lowland towns, no doubt tartans and kilts were seen by many as indicative of Scottishness."


(*NB.

You have a possibly unique idea of anomalies. When referring to the line infantry Highland regiments and Territorials who wore kilts in WW1, you stated,"These were the anomalies I mentioned."

They weren`t anomalies, i.e. exceptions, they were standard practice, as you contradicted yourself when you added,"As a general rule Highland regiments were in kilts."

Ref: veteraneastender, Sun 16 Jun 18:11. )




Post Edited (Fri 21 Jun 01:54)
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 Re: TARTANS
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Fri 21 Jun 09:09

Other aspects aside, (we both need to get on with our lives) I can assure you that Clackmannanshire is part of the recruiting area for the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders.

That is an absolute fact, not a claim - many former soldiers are from Alloa, for example.

Fife is a traditional Black Watch area.

I`ve already explained that Army recruiting territories do not sync 100% with the layman`s idea of geography. I can post a map if you are still unclear on this.

As for your great grandad`s service - it was not uncommon for a soldier to transfer to another regiment, depending on circumstances. That may be why he served in the Argylls ?

For example, my grandfather was drafted into the A&SH in his native Falkirk (the local infantry regiment) in 1916 then transferred to the Queen`s Own Cameron Highlanders. Common enough in WW1 when battalions needed to fill the ranks due to the horrendous casualties in France.

As for the anomalies I referred to - the Royal Scots were never a Highland regiment, however some did wear the kilt in WW1. The HLI were another - they recruited in and around Glasgow, based at Maryhill barracks.





Post Edited (Fri 21 Jun 09:40)
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