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Topic Originator: Berry
Date: Tue 12 Mar 21:16
Ok, please someone help me. I have no affiliation to any party and I'm not an expert in politics so don't want to get into a debate about it as I wouldn't stand a chance but there are many people like me who are surely just confused.
Theresa May got battered tonight with the Brexit deal.
1. Triggering of Article 50
That was voted in favour for by the house, despite us clearly not having a clue how we were really going to proceed.
2. The Deal
TM is a remainer, but to her credit has always said she would deliver what the people voted for.
The EU before she even started negotiations would have been miffed so she was always going to face a difficult challenge. You can't say you're leaving and fully dictate terms?
She came with a deal which was ridiculed, fair enough, she went back again and tried again, she came back, it was made crystal clear this was the best offer we were going to get, and she reiterated several times that if not accepted we run the risk of a no deal...so why has it been voted against?
The house want TM to promise they won't leave without a deal, how on earth can she agree to that when every deal just gets rejected. It's that or nothing?
3. SNP
Keep banging on about how Scotland didn't vote for Brexit, we didn't vote for independence so we have to suck it up and go with the majority vote of the UK, a UK we voted to stay within.
So what are the options being pitched..
A) Referendum
Another one? Why? Because we can't get the cushy deal we were never going to get? We voted for Brexit, there were a lot of fibs told I'm sure, but on both sides, the remainers were basically pitching the doomsday scenario, and the leavers were promising this wonderland. We now need to vote to stay because we can't get what we want...humiliating.
B) Extension to Article 50 - why? We're not going to get a better deal, we'd be buying time to figure out what to do when we leave without a deal, an option the house want off the table....
C) Stay in EU - would never be the same, it would be an absolute humiliation, relationships will be fractured and just quite frankly embarrassing that we are just incapable.
Does anyone think Jeremy Corbyn could get a better deal? No chance, but if so why's he been such an absolute erse and not helped Theresa, he's been refusing to speak to her because she can't rule out no deal, how can she possibly rule it out?
Excuse my complete ignorance but it just looks like it's a complete mess, and TM is getting hammered for it when the reality is, it's been a disaster for all of them.
Post Edited (Tue 12 Mar 21:19)
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Tue 12 Mar 22:48
Unfortunately, a section of mp's just like a section of society just want to watch the world burn.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: McCaig`s Tower
Date: Wed 13 Mar 01:34
1. Triggering Article 50.
I think the arguments were
(a) The process is going to take years anyway, so you might as well get started
(b) If you waited for the HoC to agree, it might take forever
2. The Deal
If it’s not a good deal (and I haven’t read the 585 page document), what did you expect? I don’t think we had a particularly good hand to play, but sending some incompetents to do the negotiation appeared perverse.
The HoC is split between those who don’t want any deal (and a hard Brexit), those who think there is a better deal to be had, those who don’t want to leave, those who want to be in Government at any cost (and those who want Scottish Independence at any cost). Currently there is no compunction to agree anything, and so people can play for time.
3. The SNP
1 million Scots voted to leave – if they had voted the other way, we wouldn’t be leaving (although we might be having a different constitutional crisis). The SNP’s attitude to Europe has always been a bit ambivalent, and they are using this crisis to further their own cause. They have now belatedly jumped on the “People’s Vote” bandwagon. Labour may have done the same, although it’s hard to tell.
Options
A – People’s Vote.
We have a constitutional crisis. The people have voted to do something that is not in the national interests. The Government’s duty is to protect the national interests (and to implement the people’s decision). One way out of this bind is to have a vote on the deal.
I have always maintained that voting without knowing the deal, was akin to writing a blank cheque. Leaving aside the possible illegality of the initial vote, it makes sense to have confirmatory vote.
B – Extension.
At the moment, if we don’t agree a deal, we will leave without a deal. Most people agree that that would be bad, hence delaying making a bad decision on the chance you will make a better decision makes sense. Of course, in negotiations you should normally leave open the possibility of walking away, else you expose yourself to the possibility of having to accept a dreadful deal. The counter-argument in this case is that (rationally) no deal is clearly such a bad proposition that no-one in their right mind would take it.
C – Stay in Europe.
Humiliation? Possibly, but arguably that boat has sailed. A bit of humility might be necessary.
Could Jeremy Corbyn get a better deal? Possibly, but he won’t get the deal he says he would. He would be playing the same hand, and he hasn’t revealed many leadership skills to date.
To be honest, how many people have a good understanding of what is going on? Not me, and not half the MPs (who should) I would wager.
But you’re right - the whole thing is a mess and it’s difficult to see a solution.
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Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe
Date: Wed 13 Mar 08:43
After yesterday's defeat, it is obvious the way it will play out.
Today is another vote in which it is expected a no deal will be taken off the table leaving tomorrow's vote to ask for an extension to article 50 which is likely to pass.
The EU though could veto this if they don't get an alternative plan from the UK government instead of just the same old rhetoric meaning we could be out in two weeks with not even a bad deal.
I don't see another referendum happening anytime soon with Corbyn clearly against one and imo I don't think it is a good idea anyway as would just cause even more bad blood should it be a close vote the other way.
The one possibility would be a vote on a no deal vs a Norway type deal which delivers Brexit as promised but keeps the UK in a trade deal and Single Market. This would solve the N. Ireland problem as well.
Zwei Pints Bier und ein Päckchen Chips bitte
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Topic Originator: DBP
Date: Wed 13 Mar 09:01
The SNP might be 'banging on' but they're representing the Scottish electorate who voted in the referendum. Not one region of Scotland voted for brexit so it would be remis of them if they just nodded along with the complete farse that is the brexit negotiations and transition to leaving the EU.
As you said, we may have voted to be dependent as opposed to independent, but for me, that doesn't mean we should just shut up, sit quietly on the naughty step and accept any old guff that the rest of the UK wants to do.
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Topic Originator: wetherby
Date: Wed 13 Mar 09:31
The original referendum was completely bungled by Cameron , something so utterly complex should never have been put in the hands of the electorate but left to parliament. Having committed to a referendum there should have been thresholds introduced along the lines of 40% of the electorate has to vote in favour to be binding. It was Cameron at his most reckless.
Something like 63% of the electorate did NOT vote to leave which is conveniently overlooked by the rent a quote leavers.
This chaos has been driven by just over a third of the electorate who seem to grab a disproportionate amount of airtime.
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Wed 13 Mar 10:47
Right now it looks like we will be leaving without a deal. Yes mp's will vote tonight to take no deal off the table but that is only an advisory vote. Legally we will be leaving on March 29th and only a change of law can alter that fact. It will be extremely difficult for the government to change that inside two weeks. They would have the votes to do so but would unlikely have the parliamentary time to do so, especially with brexiteers using delaying tactics.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: Rastapari
Date: Wed 13 Mar 14:24
Quote:
The One Who Knocks, Tue 12 Mar 22:48
Unfortunately, a section of mp's just like a section of society just want to watch the world burn.
This, we agree on something.
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Topic Originator: DBP
Date: Wed 13 Mar 17:23
I disagree with the 63% not voting for brexit meaning anything. While factual, for me it's irrelevant.
You put a question to the electorate, they vote and you count the winner. If a percentage of the franchise decide not to vote, then their non participation should not be counted. Threshold, or stating 63% as a number is essentially counting non participation as a vote for the status quo.
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Wed 13 Mar 18:09
I agree, DBP. I can't see how it would be democratic to allocate the votes of those who aren't sufficiently interested to vote, to one side or the other.
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Topic Originator: donj
Date: Wed 13 Mar 22:45
Not the system used in Scotland in 1979 so why one rule then and another rule now.Mind you all the dead Tories would have given them a bigger win as dead votes counted here.
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Topic Originator: Captain Desmond Fancey
Date: Thu 14 Mar 10:26
Democracy - if it even existed - was well and truly killed off in the UK last night.
At least now I can finally agree with some of the SNP mob on here - David Mundell is an absolute w**ker and should be out of a job today.
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Thu 14 Mar 11:33
Take back control and make parliament sovereign! Oh wait a minute.....
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: desparado
Date: Thu 14 Mar 14:42
CDF.....finally agree.......what took you so long to come to that conclusion?
The man is spineless and an utter disgrace.
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Topic Originator: Captain Desmond Fancey
Date: Thu 14 Mar 15:45
I don't think we'll agree on very much, but on that we absolutely will.
If he had any decency he'd resign. If May had any balls she'd fire him.
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Topic Originator: desparado
Date: Fri 15 Mar 11:40
I am sure you must agree that the Secretary of State for Scotland cares very little about his country men and women and this is reflected in the UK gov attitude to Scotland also.
Basically WM does not give a flying fig about the uppity Jocks.
As long as there are people like you around who are happy to have our country run and all the major decisions made by a bunch of expensively educated idiots then it will always be thus.
I would much prefer to run our own affairs, just like many similar sized countries in Europe.
With support for independence still slightly under 50% but other polls showing that Brexit ,any kind of Brexit, likely to increase support then I am pretty confident that when we have another independence referendum we will get over the line. Bearing in mind that when the gun gets fired support for Indy will only go up as it did last time and if we are starting at slightly below 50% or even slightly above 50%, then it is in the bag !
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Topic Originator: Captain Desmond Fancey
Date: Fri 15 Mar 12:16
And just when I thought we might have been friends ;)
I'll ignore the "people like you" remark. Suffice to say it could be levelled back at you for your love of all things to do with SNP politicians.
Back to agreeing though. I would love my country - i.e. the United Kingdom - to run its own affairs. Hence the reason I voted Brexit, and hence the reason I would do so again but, in the meantime, at least expect our Politicians to deliver.
Keep dreaming about your referendum and your "Indy" and enjoy your weekend.
The good old days
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Topic Originator: desparado
Date: Fri 15 Mar 15:29
People like you....SNP mob....hypocrisy.
The UK does run its own affairs and makes a pigs ear of them. The EU has very little control over UK affairs.
You have obviously swallowed the “ taking back control “ mantra.
Lol. The only people who want to take back control are the tax dodging multi millionaires and as long as they have people like you....sorry, repeating their mantra then they just sit back and reap the benefits knowing that the brainwashed are doing their dirty work for them.
You and me will have less control,if we ever had any after Brexit. Meanwhile the Moggs and the Farages of this world will be laughing all the way to the bank.
Taking back control...pffft.
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Topic Originator: Captain Desmond Fancey
Date: Fri 15 Mar 15:42
You really don't do irony at all do you?
I'm gullible for believing in the likes of Nigel Farage, yet you're prepared to believe all the la-la promises of your own cult leaders?
If you actually believe that they really care about the "ordinary" man, sorry person, on the street then you're even dafter than the majority of your posts suggest.
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Topic Originator: desparado
Date: Fri 15 Mar 15:58
The only thing I believe from SNP and anyone who is in favour of independence and could be described as influential is that they believe that Scotland would be better off as an independent nation- as I do- rather than shackled to the corpse of the UK.
Glad you admitted that you actually believed a word Farage said.
Hook line sinker.
Did you also believe what it said on the side of the big red bus?
I had you down as average intelligence too.
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Topic Originator: DBP
Date: Sat 16 Mar 08:22
Quote:
Captain Desmond Fancey, Fri 15 Mar 12:16
And just when I thought we might have been friends ;)
I'll ignore the "people like you" remark. Suffice to say it could be levelled back at you for your love of all things to do with SNP politicians.
Back to agreeing though. I would love my country - i.e. the United Kingdom - to run its own affairs. Hence the reason I voted Brexit, and hence the reason I would do so again but, in the meantime, at least expect our Politicians to deliver.
Keep dreaming about your referendum and your "Indy" and enjoy your weekend.
Is the UK a country?
While it is a sovereign state, I'm sure the UK is not a country, rather a political union.
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Topic Originator: desparado
Date: Sat 16 Mar 11:50
Indeed and a Union we can walk away from......without the need of permission from WM.
What an opportunity we missed in 2014.
Post Edited (Sat 16 Mar 11:54)
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Topic Originator: calpar
Date: Sat 16 Mar 12:14
Aye, and I really hoped we had more people that could actually see what this country is subjected to, and openly allow it to happen
I do despair 😢
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Topic Originator: McCaig`s Tower
Date: Sat 16 Mar 12:18
Is the UK a country?
Seriously, where does this question come from? Is it on a crib-sheet somewhere?
Many modern day countries are the results of political unions.
desperado - are you proposing a "no deal" Scexit?
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Topic Originator: DBP
Date: Sat 16 Mar 13:38
I guess the question came from discussing political unions. Here we all are in a scenario where some posters are in favour of leaving a political union (EU) but strongly identify and argue for remaining in another political union (UK) - I find that interesting, especially as others wish to do the reverse.
However is a shame these days that whenever you ask a question, rather than allowing a discussion to flow - you're instantly labelled as a member of this or that group, brainwashed, reading from a crib sheet, etc?
Shame really
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Topic Originator: calpar
Date: Sat 16 Mar 14:22
at this point, I long for a no deal brexit,
I honestly do not see anything changing over 24 hrs, it is scaremongering at the extreme, and reminds me of the Y2K fiasco that many made a mint out of
I voted to remain, however the current status is a shambles, and they should all be made to face the electorate immediately afterwards
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Topic Originator: donj
Date: Sun 17 Mar 23:10
I despair of this whole lot really.Tories have no idea,Labour no better.They both forget that they cant get the deals they want as they both want to leave the club.The club make the rules unfortunately.
SNP no better here as they seem to be fighting for the uk rather than just saying stuff it and going for what they stand for.
Lib Dems,well nobody really knows what they want as they are like eels that can tun in seconds.(note how they dumped all policies when they got a wee bit power)
UKIP less said the better on these racist thugs.
Our brilliant new Independent group cant even tell us their policies as even they have no idea.
DUP who seem to have most power are not even in charge of the teeny part of the country they represent have some beliefs that defy all beliefs.
UK heading down the plughole and just a mass of idiots collecting pay and causing it.
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Topic Originator: moviescot
Date: Mon 18 Mar 17:37
Speaker now saying there can be no third vote unless there is a substantial difference in the Brexit agreement.
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Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert
Date: Mon 18 Mar 19:16
A lot of MP's be crapping themselves at the thought of a General Election.
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Topic Originator: desparado
Date: Mon 18 Mar 22:16
Topic Originator: McCaig`s Tower
Date: Sat 16 Mar 12:18
Is the UK a country?
Seriously, where does this question come from? Is it on a crib-sheet somewhere?
Many modern day countries are the results of political unions.
desperado - are you proposing a "no deal" Scexit?
I am saying that if WM continually say “ Now is not the time “ then we have other choices. I hope there is another GE. SNP put independence in their manifesto.....it wasn’t in the last two. Win a majority of seats, latest polls suggest SNP will win between 40-48 seats, then that’s it really. No referendum needed as it wasn’t in the majority of cases where countries have regained their independence fairly recently.
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Wed 3 Apr 17:39
Ref: wetherby
Wed 13 Mar 09:31
<<< Something like 63% of the electorate did NOT vote to leave which is conveniently overlooked by the rent a quote leavers. >>>
What about a referendum for those who did not vote first time round. Any takers?
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