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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Mon 9 Sep 22:10
Finally declares he is going.
Funny it was the opposition benches who gave him an ovation.
Odious man who twisted every rule in the book to oppose Brexit despite supposedly being “politically neutral”.
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Topic Originator: Bandy
Date: Mon 9 Sep 22:10
Any examples of the rules he broke?
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Mon 9 Sep 22:20
Everything about Westminster is an embarrassment. A disgusting waste of money. All these ridiculous rules.and traditions need binned.
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Mon 9 Sep 22:26
Requests for article 24 emergency motions granted at will against established precedent which are ordinarily only admitted “in emergency” resulting in dodgy laws being passed in a day without proper parliamentary scrutiny.
Same guy who said precedent was not an obstacle to change and then referred to an obscure procedure over 400 years old to support whatever motion he liked.
Hypocrite and obviously loved by the opposition.
Boll..ks to Brexit sticker on his “family’s “ car. His ranting at the Edinburgh Festival in opposition to Brexit. Boasting to students in Reading he voted Remain.
A disgrace to his position as the House Speaker.
He is elected unopposed as supposed to be politically neutral in conduct of Parliamentary proceedings.
Post Edited (Mon 09 Sep 22:30)
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Topic Originator: red-star-par
Date: Mon 9 Sep 22:40
I quite like him, seems like a decent guy
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Mon 9 Sep 22:41
Apparently he was a Tory as a young man.
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Mon 9 Sep 22:46
He’s obviously not matured very well.
Maybe his, allegedly, slightly louche wife had some influence in that regard considering her political leanings.
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Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy
Date: Mon 9 Sep 23:36
Question is Parbucks, would you be saying the same if he'd been blatantly Brexiteer? Doubt it. Stones in glass houses n aw that....
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Mon 9 Sep 23:53
The Speaker is by convention politically neutral as are the deputies. You do not see any self serving posturing from them.
He is elected unopposed. Proceedings are expected to be conducted without favour in accordance with the Erskine May rule book which have stood the test of time until now.
Not connivance in a weekend ahead of a major debate with a leading opponent of Brexit (Grieve) and then granting an extraordinary amendment as he did.
No I would not be saying the same.
You seem to be justifying his behaviour.
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Mon 9 Sep 23:55
Post Edited (Tue 10 Sep 00:00)
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Topic Originator: Tenruh
Date: Tue 10 Sep 06:43
Quote:
parbucks, Mon 9 Sep 22:26
Requests for article 24 emergency motions granted at will against established precedent which are ordinarily only admitted “in emergency” resulting in dodgy laws being passed in a day without proper parliamentary scrutiny.
Same guy who said precedent was not an obstacle to change and then referred to an obscure procedure over 400 years old to support whatever motion he liked.
Hypocrite and obviously loved by the opposition.
Boll..ks to Brexit sticker on his “family’s “ car. His ranting at the Edinburgh Festival in opposition to Brexit. Boasting to students in Reading he voted Remain.
A disgrace to his position as the House Speaker.
He is elected unopposed as supposed to be politically neutral in conduct of Parliamentary proceedings.
Looks like your seething with bitterness and hatred, SIT DOWN MAN
Post Edited (Tue 10 Sep 09:05)
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Topic Originator: Tenruh
Date: Tue 10 Sep 06:45
Quote:
parbucks, Mon 9 Sep 23:53
The Speaker is by convention politically neutral as are the deputies. You do not see any self serving posturing from them.
He is elected unopposed. Proceedings are expected to be conducted without favour in accordance with the Erskine May rule book which have stood the test of time until now.
Not connivance in a weekend ahead of a major debate with a leading opponent of Brexit (Grieve) and then granting an extraordinary amendment as he did.
No I would not be saying the same.
You seem to be justifying his behaviour.
Brilliant, looks like the SNP will be deciding who the next speaker will be. Thanks John, and your welcome to visit us in Scotland anytime
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Topic Originator: Captain Desmond Fancey
Date: Tue 10 Sep 07:37
Did you see that Labour muppet throwing himself over Bercow's lap to try and stop him standing up at the end of the session? What an absolute embarrassment the House has become in recent years.
As for Bercow, I fully expect either him or Sally to be eating witchety grubs in the jungle next year. Best place for either of them.
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Tue 10 Sep 07:59
Quote:
Captain Desmond Fancey, Tue 10 Sep 07:37
Did you see that Labour muppet throwing himself over Bercow's lap to try and stop him standing up at the end of the session? What an absolute embarrassment the House has become in recent years.
For once we agree. Get rid of it and it's outdated rules. Time for a modern government using technology rather than all this pointless getting up and down and shouting over a room.
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Topic Originator: Captain Desmond Fancey
Date: Tue 10 Sep 08:06
I don't think that Labour MP's act was anything to do with rules and traditions of Parliament (which I would actually feel really sad to see eroded) was much more to do with a general lack of respect, and no doubt with the intention of getting himself some thumbs up on Social Media.
Oh for the days of Bernard Weatherill and Betty Boothroyd in the Speaker's chair. Both outstanding Speakers who conducted themselves far more professionally than this "I couldn't give a flying flamingo" charlatan.
Writing was on the wall for him when the Tories announced they'd break with convention and stand against him as he knew he would get pasted at the Ballot Box. We'll no doubt see a memoir, which will end up in The Works before long and then a bloated pension which he will enjoy in obscurity.
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Topic Originator: ipswichpar
Date: Tue 10 Sep 08:58
Quote:
Captain Desmond Fancey, Tue 10 Sep 07:37
Did you see that Labour muppet throwing himself over Bercow's lap to try and stop him standing up at the end of the session? What an absolute embarrassment the House has become in recent years.
As for Bercow, I fully expect either him or Sally to be eating witchety grubs in the jungle next year. Best place for either of them.
Russell-Moyle is a complete bellend from what I have seen.
Why someone like that holds a position such as a member of parliament is beyond me. I'd have an issue if he was a Modern Studies teach let alone an MP.
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Tue 10 Sep 09:11
For someone who loves to castigate MP’s for “chuntering from a sedentary position” we will finally see the end of the Chunterer in Chief.
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Topic Originator: Tenruh
Date: Tue 10 Sep 09:26
Bercow's my favourite, followed by Speaker Martin, a good honest sort, to young to remember the others
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Tue 10 Sep 09:33
Sadly your benchmark is not very high.
CDF mentions two of the most highly respected from BOTH sides of the House.
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Tue 10 Sep 17:51
Today they were singing and squabbling in Westminster. This is our national parliament. These are people we voted for to represent us. It would appear we've elected a bunch of dafties who think it's appropriate to act like they're on a school debating group.
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Topic Originator: Captain Desmond Fancey
Date: Tue 10 Sep 17:56
Definitely agree with you on that Jake. Those scenes last night were an utter embarrassment
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Topic Originator: desparado
Date: Tue 10 Sep 19:55
No worse than telling some one to commit suicide, or barking like a dog when a female MP was talking. Only two examples of classy behaviour from the Tory benches recently. There will be hundreds more. I suppose it is ok if done from a sedentary position.....I hope never to hear that again...
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Topic Originator: Tenruh
Date: Tue 10 Sep 20:03
Quote:
Captain Desmond Fancey, Tue 10 Sep 19:09
More classy behaviour from Ms Black last night too
https://youtu.be/COchtdI1glQ]
Thanks for putting that up, gave me a good laugh...
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Topic Originator: BigJPar
Date: Tue 10 Sep 20:04
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Tue 10 Sep 20:09
It looks like she's implying someone enjoys self gratifying. The action appears to be being done whilst they wait for an utterly pointless parliamentary act to be carried out. It's this kind of thing I'm talking about. Why are they sat about waiting for some idiot to come along and bang a door with a stick? IT'S THE 21ST CENTURY!
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Tue 10 Sep 20:15
Yes Jake but Bercow used a Parliamentary procedure 400 years old and last used in 1920 to previously stuff the Government. Should say he is supposed to be the great moderniser....in his own mind.
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Topic Originator: londonparsfan
Date: Tue 10 Sep 20:24
Quote:
BigJPar, Tue 10 Sep 20:04
Quote:
Captain Desmond Fancey, Tue 10 Sep 19:09
More classy behaviour from Ms Black last night too
https://youtu.be/COchtdI1glQ]
What do you think she is doing? Genuine question as I don't think it's a wanker gesture.
Yeah that looks more like shes waving some imaginary door knocking implement which ties in a bit with the knocks on the door.
Anyone thinking that's a pleasuring action has an odd technique 😉
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Tue 10 Sep 20:25
Could argue he was very clever but there's certainly nothing modern about Westminster. It should be done up to be a museum (chargeable) with the parliament moved to a modern facility somewhere well connected like Manchester. Include a block of flats that MPs can use instead of paying for second homes. Modernise the procedures so we're not reliant on some nonsense procedure for 1892.
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Tue 10 Sep 20:26
LPF
Well she wouldn’t know the right technique would she?
Post Edited (Tue 10 Sep 20:27)
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Topic Originator: londonparsfan
Date: Tue 10 Sep 20:28
I've got no idea.
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Topic Originator: Tenruh
Date: Tue 10 Sep 20:38
Quote:
parbucks, Tue 10 Sep 20:15
Yes Jake but Bercow used a Parliamentary procedure 400 years old and last used in 1920 to previously stuff the Government. Should say he is supposed to be the great moderniser....in his own mind.
Ha ha you couldn't make it up, what the hell has BoJo done that's any better. Poor parliamentarians out of work till 14th of October on full pay.... How much is that costing
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Tue 10 Sep 20:48
No wonder the EU think we're nuts - MPs having a 5-week break, including three weeks for their conferences, whilst in the middle of a national crisis.
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Tue 10 Sep 21:08
Don’t see what the fuss is about. We’ve had over 3 years to sort things out and a 3 month extension ( if granted by the EU) won’t change things.
Ironically one of the chief obstructers, Hilary Benn, seems to be saying that with a few tweaks if May’s deal is brought back for the fourth time it could pass.
You couldn’t make it up.
Too many lawyers and barristers in Parliament who want to see who can pee up the wall higher.
Add Grieve, Clarke, Cherry and Starmer to the list.
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Topic Originator: moviescot
Date: Tue 10 Sep 21:17
Quote:
Captain Desmond Fancey, Tue 10 Sep 19:09
More classy behaviour from Ms Black last night too
https://youtu.be/COchtdI1glQ]
Really clutching at straws there. That's clearly a knocking gesture. Good grief man. Grow up.
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Tue 10 Sep 22:03
The main task of Brexiteers now is to shower as much excrement on the concept of parliament as they can. How else could they justify a 5 week extension at the very time parliament needs to be sitting? It's not quite Reichstag Fire stuff, but it's intention is the same: to put in the public mind the idea that parliament does not represent the people and is therefore irrelevant. In point of fact, the present parliament was voted in AFTER the Brexit referendum, so in contemporary terms is more representative of the people than any hallowed Brexit vote.
Make no mistake about this. The very second Johnson, with whatever Fascist Faragist wing he decides to ally with, can claim the most miniscule majority imaginable, then the very voices on here wettingon parliament will be hailing it as the mother of democracies without equal. Anyone who questions its authority will be labelled a terrorist or such like. Don't be fooled. For them parliament is only a tool to maintain the power of the rich over the poor.
As for Bercow, well he made the right enemies. He stood up for parliament against the government, and history will be kinder to him than many.
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Topic Originator: Captain Desmond Fancey
Date: Tue 10 Sep 22:15
She must have walked through some very funny doors in her time if that's a "knocking gesture".
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Topic Originator: moviescot
Date: Tue 10 Sep 22:17
Quote:
Captain Desmond Fancey, Tue 10 Sep 22:15
She must have walked through some very funny doors in her time if that's a "knocking gesture".
Don't compound your stupidity.
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Tue 10 Sep 22:19
I’ll anticipate the inevitable claim that Farage is not a fascist, a view I first encountered on RT from George Galloway, a well known Brexiteer.
Farage is clearly a fascist, although I never claimed he was a racist or a Nazi. Farage has no opinion on land ownership in the UK other than leave it in the hands of the aristocracy. Very Mussolini, very Franco. If he ever becomes PM he can happily bow to the Queen every Tuesday. Like them he loathes trade unions since they represent workers but most of that repression has already been done by Margaret Thatcher, with the compliance of Blairite Labour, so he has little work left to do. Once he is freed from the shackles of EU restrictions he can become the country squire he often seems to be, beaming at his stratified UK with an indolent aristocracy, extortionate money-making corporations, and cowed working class.
I’m sure there are plenty who will drink to that with him in the Red Lion Brexiteer bar.
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Tue 10 Sep 22:57
“It's not quite Reichstag Fire stuff, but it's intention is the same”
“Farage is clearly a fascist”.
“beaming at his stratified UK with an indolent aristocracy, extortionate money-making corporations, and cowed working class.”
Sammer I thought you were better than that.
Stinks of old fashioned class wars, stereotypes and somewhat inflammatory.
You clearly do not value those of the “working class” who actually do not feel “cowed” just to use your words.
There are many of us who aspired, achieved and moved on with our lives.
Such was the benefit of an education system in Fife that in my day encouraged academic achievement, social mobility and the sky was the limit.
We appear to have regressed.
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Tue 10 Sep 23:29
Be fair Parbucks,
I said the intention of Brexiteers like Farage was to cow the working class, not that it had been accomplished. Short term contracts, compulsory peer group assessment and perpetual appraisal have taken that process only so far down the road.
As for class war, well I think you have supplied your own answer by using the phrase 'social mobility.' That phrase assumes there will always be a poor class and that the object of life for any working class person is to get the hell out of it. That's not much of a society. Who empties the bins? Immigrants?
Back in the days when the political left used to educate us, before they became consumed by side issues and rainbow alliances, they stated clearly that the duty of any working class person was not only to make the most of themselves and rise as high as they could, which I guess you have done, but to rise WITH their class, not OUT OF it.
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Topic Originator: OzPar
Date: Wed 11 Sep 07:48
<< ... the duty of any working-class person was not only to make the most of themselves and rise as high as they could, which I guess you have done, but to rise WITH their class, not OUT OF it.>>
Long gone are the certainties that came with the lower, working, middle, upper-middle and upper-class structures that were based as much on upbringing as they were on financial security.
The old class system in Britain has since the 1960s progressively evolved into a system almost exclusively controlled by access to money.
Technically, the traditional bands still exist and there is growing scope for mobility both up and down between the working, middle and upper-middle, based on relative financial acumen.
However, there is still little or no mobility at the extremes - lower and upper - where lack of opportunity at one end and privilege from birth at the other appear to remain the primary influences.
Of course, now there is an additional class that in many respects supersedes all the others, and that is "The Elites" - the super-rich. They are to be seen everywhere - not just in Britain. In sammer's beloved Russia too.
No matter what traditional class you happen to be in, you should know that your role in life is to make these new Masters of the Universe even richer. Heaven help you if you happen to cross them.
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Topic Originator: Captain Desmond Fancey
Date: Wed 11 Sep 08:12
"Don't compound your stupidity."
Your contributions to this thread have been as invaluable as ever. Keep the personal insults out of it if you've got nothing to add.
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Topic Originator: Captain Desmond Fancey
Date: Wed 11 Sep 08:14
"I’m sure there are plenty who will drink to that with him in the Red Lion Brexiteer bar."
I would certainly relish a good pint of ale and a cigar with him.
The good old days
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Topic Originator: Tenruh
Date: Wed 11 Sep 08:15
Quote:
sammer, Tue 10 Sep 23:29
Be fair Parbucks,
I said the intention of Brexiteers like Farage was to cow the working class, not that it had been accomplished. Short term contracts, compulsory peer group assessment and perpetual appraisal have taken that process only so far down the road.
As for class war, well I think you have supplied your own answer by using the phrase 'social mobility.' That phrase assumes there will always be a poor class and that the object of life for any working class person is to get the hell out of it. That's not much of a society. Who empties the bins? Immigrants?
Back in the days when the political left used to educate us, before they became consumed by side issues and rainbow alliances, they stated clearly that the duty of any working class person was not only to make the most of themselves and rise as high as they could, which I guess you have done, but to rise WITH their class, not OUT OF it.
Aye some folk like to forget where they come from.
Not everyone can climb the class system
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Topic Originator: moviescot
Date: Wed 11 Sep 14:16
Quote:
Captain Desmond Fancey, Wed 11 Sep 08:12
"Don't compound your stupidity."
Your contributions to this thread have been as invaluable as ever. Keep the personal insults out of it if you've got nothing to add.
I'll comment as I see fit. You do. Personal insult stands. And it's only an insult is it's not true.
Post Edited (Wed 11 Sep 14:17)
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Topic Originator: Captain Desmond Fancey
Date: Wed 11 Sep 16:37
Fair enough, I'll leave you in the playground and concentrate on answering the many valid points the others are making.
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Topic Originator: moviescot
Date: Wed 11 Sep 16:54
Quote:
Captain Desmond Fancey, Wed 11 Sep 16:37
Fair enough, I'll leave you in the playground and concentrate on answering the many valid points the others are making.
You stated the playground stuff with what you insinuated Ms Black was up to. Only on your mind clearly.
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Wed 11 Sep 20:35
Fekin hell this is better than the commons debates :-)
I like Bercow and think he has done a great Job under the most volatile Parliament in my lifetime
He has seen through the huge hidden brexit agenda which has been many years in planning and has kept the bully boy far right fascists from steamrolling a no deal through Parliament to avoid the new EU offshore tax avoidance law
Boris is a serial liar It would also now appear he has misled Lizzie Ooer Mrs. :-)
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Wed 11 Sep 20:54
The concept of class is outdated. You can't buy class and there is nothing wrong with being working, middle or upper class. The simple rule to follow is to not be a bad person. Sadly, there are bad people out there from all classes. Mostly driving Audi's 😉
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Wed 11 Sep 21:52
Jake
I find myself agreeing with you except they also drive Polos, Fiestas, Clios and that ilk. 🤨
Why discriminate?
Post Edited (Wed 11 Sep 21:54)
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Wed 11 Sep 22:32
I was half joking but there was a report earlier in the week where it was suggested people felt the most aggressive drivers on the road were Audi drivers.
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Thu 12 Sep 00:12
'The concept of class is outdated. '
There speaks the voice of the politically illiterate proletariat.
The Class War never ended: the aristocracy did not hand over the title deeds to the land you live upon; the capitalists did not allow you control of your financial affairs. The house you think you own is most likely on land owned by Lord Elgin, if you are a Fifer. The money you have in your bank does not exist, but is secured against so many assets it would take you a lifetime to track them down.
There is labour- which is people; and there is capital- which is what we produce. Politics is about how these two forces are reconciled for the public good. All the rest is propaganda, including brexit. That is class politics and it has not changed in my lifetime.
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Thu 12 Sep 06:52
Alas, the land my house is on is owned by me. Lord Elgin owns very little now. I'm.not even sure if he owns the land at Broomhall anymore.
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Topic Originator: Captain Desmond Fancey
Date: Thu 12 Sep 06:58
Jake you'll be delighted to hear that I agree with you again ;)
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Mon 21 Oct 19:17
Played an absolute blinder today
But where was Boris for urgent questions ? He has not an iota of courtesy or dignity in his lard
Brexit seccy Stephen Barclay left to answer the questions and to be fair held his own albeit very Borisesq
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Topic Originator: donj
Date: Mon 21 Oct 19:51
Our two resident Tories obviously not happy.
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Topic Originator: Andrew283
Date: Mon 21 Oct 19:58
Parliament will be all the worse when he is gone imo
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Mon 21 Oct 22:46
Totally odious man with no shame.
Just loves the controversy and the spotlight as his performance today showed.
His inconsistent interpretation of parliamentary rules and conventions defy the principle of the role of Speaker as being politically impartial. Even one of the deputy Speakers openly criticises him.
I hope Boris gets some retribution by denying him the normal accolade on retirement as Speaker of a seat in the Lords which he craves.
No doubt when he is gone the bullying of staff will be fully explored.
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Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe
Date: Mon 21 Oct 23:47
Quote:
parbucks, Mon 21 Oct 22:46
Totally odious man with no shame.
Just loves the controversy and the spotlight as his performance today showed.
His inconsistent interpretation of parliamentary rules and conventions defy the principle of the role of Speaker as being politically impartial. Even one of the deputy Speakers openly criticises him.
I hope Boris gets some retribution by denying him the normal accolade on retirement as Speaker of a seat in the Lords which he craves.
No doubt when he is gone the bullying of staff will be fully explored.
You're just quoting the Daily Mail, admit it. 😉
Zwei Pints Bier und ein Päckchen Chips bitte
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Topic Originator: londonparsfan
Date: Tue 22 Oct 00:16
As much as I want to like him for winding up the Tories I've seen him acting like a bell end on far too many occasions. He certainly likes to be the center of attention.
I didn't pay much attention to the Speaker back in the day so I might be wrong but Betty Boothroyd seemed to be far better in the role from what I remember.
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Tue 22 Oct 01:23
I suppose he's really out of order compared to those bastions! of democracy, Bolshy Johnson and Rees-Mug.
Thank goodness for Bercow, Parliament and the Supreme Court. And the EU, who, I hear, are not insisting on Brexit by the 31st October.
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Topic Originator: ipswichpar
Date: Tue 22 Oct 07:19
Quote:
parbucks, Mon 21 Oct 22:46
Totally odious man with no shame.
Just loves the controversy and the spotlight as his performance today showed.
His inconsistent interpretation of parliamentary rules and conventions defy the principle of the role of Speaker as being politically impartial. Even one of the deputy Speakers openly criticises him.
I hope Boris gets some retribution by denying him the normal accolade on retirement as Speaker of a seat in the Lords which he craves.
No doubt when he is gone the bullying of staff will be fully explored.
I think that's out of awwwwwwdaaaaaarrrrrrr, awwddaaaaaaar.
I wont miss him.
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Topic Originator: DBP
Date: Tue 22 Oct 09:13
I don't think Betty's tenure was in such a tumultuous time though???
As the old saying goes, anyone can take the helm when the sea is calm...
I think all things considered, he's trying to play it straight under parliamentary rules and convention... its just that it's infortunatly playing into the sound bite fabrication of 'people vs establishment' and folk who want brexit are lapping it up.
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Tue 22 Oct 10:26
“I think all things considered, he's trying to play it straight under parliamentary rules and convention..”
I beg to differ.
He refers to Erskine May which is the long standing authority on Parliamentary Practice when it suits. Then ignores it by saying that precedent should not get in the way of change. He allowed the Grieve Amendment to pass in January defying all convention and against the advice of the Commons Clerk who is the resident authority on parliamentary procedure. This changed the whole timetable through which MP’s can raise emergency motions, urgent questions thus making the Brexit process more complex.
He is a self declared Remainer and will stop at nothing to frustrate and sabotage Brexit.
He is a disgrace to the office of Speaker.
In the current febrile atmosphere in the Commons the last thing we need is this trumped up windbag creating more discord with his arbitrary decisions to suit his personal agenda.
Post Edited (Tue 22 Oct 11:47)
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Tue 22 Oct 12:58
Disgraceful that a minority government can't get it's own way all the time eh Parbucks. Disgraceful checks and balances. Let's have government by bulldozer!
<<< arbitrary decisions to suit his personal agenda >>>
Goose and gander come to mind.
Just the thing:
"It used to be that people with fake plastic geese in their yards had it easy. They chose a relatively low-maintenance yard decor. You poked their little bird bodies in the yard and maybe hosed them off every once in a while. No fuss. No muss.
Until now.
No longer shall your neighbors be content with your lowly naked geese. Perk up! Outfit those geese in the most fantastic, humiliating ways imaginable!"
https://stonecoldstump.wordpress.com/2008/08/05/take-a-gander-at-this-or-humiliating-your-lawn-ornaments/
Post Edited (Tue 22 Oct 13:07)
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Tue 22 Oct 13:33
If the government can’t govern then the normal parliamentary process is for their opponents to raise a motion of “ no confidence” and precipitate a general election.
Except the opposition have twice declined to do that because they fear the present government will be re-elected with a workable majority on a manifesto of the People versus Parliament.
To use another metaphor: turkeys don’t vote for Christmas.
Meanwhile they cackle on while the world watches in incredulity over the lack of democracy in the Mother of Parliaments.
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Topic Originator: BigJPar
Date: Tue 22 Oct 14:17
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Tue 22 Oct 14:48
Hi Parbucks,
Actually I think for a 'lame duck', the opposition is doing quite well. IMO your Party probably would get a majority in a GE. Not because their policies are good or right but because certain large numbers of the public vote for personalities.
Given that Corbyn has even less charisma than Michael Foot, I think the opposition are doing well to hold off from a GE until 'no deal' is ruled out.
As for "lack of democracy", I don't think so - I think the reason that the dictators have not got their way already is because democracy has been upheld despite the government's 'below the belt' activities.
But it's pretty much all been said and you and I are not going to change each other's minds so we may as well chill!
Post Edited (Tue 22 Oct 14:56)
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Tue 22 Oct 14:57
😌
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Tue 22 Oct 16:17
Bercow has been Speaker for around 10 years so it seems unlikely he has suddenly become bad at his job. If he was not up to the job then he could have been removed long before now. I cannot recall the right wing media axis of The Express, The Mail, The Telegraph or The Sun having had very much to say about the man until Brexit became a contentious procedural issue within the HOC. He is now attacked partly on the same grounds that Alex Ferguson was when a player at Rangers: his wife is ‘one of them.’
Bercow is merely the latest addition to the hate list compiled by those frustrated that their cack handed idea of Brexit cannot be shaped into anything resembling a coherent policy. If a coherent Brexit was possible then it would have been voted through parliament some time ago. It is not the fault of Bercow or Tusk or Junker or Barnier or the BBC or the Supreme Court or Hilary Benn or Letwin that this godforsaken rubbish is not on the statute book. The last three years have made plain that there is no economic case for Brexit- quite the reverse if anything- and that the Irish question is a circle that cannot be squared. That is why Johnson was attempting to introduce BRINO 4 today, for the discredited Theresa May plan is the only deal on the table, and that has already been seen for what it is inside the HOC.
The media axis can take Farage of the airwaves and pretend that BRINO 4 is some great feat of statesmanship, but it is simply what has been rejected before by MPs including Johnson. The self-styled Spartans- men whose idea of sacrifice is withdrawing an expenses claim- are now panicking that their stubborn refusal to vote for BRINO under Theresa May could have scuppered the whole Brexit enterprise. Better to blame Bercow rather than themselves .
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Tue 22 Oct 16:51
Correct Sammer
Bercow has done a sterling job has not buckled under pressure and is not afraid to keep the schoolyard supermen at bay
To his detriment he will not be afforded the ermine tailed robes I'm afraid, as he dared to challenge and stand up to Dominic and the authors of Britannia Unchained to try and keep an even playing field for the ultimate good of the Country
Big vote tonight around 19.00
Dominic saying if it does not pass he will withdraw the bill
Tory's being e-mailed to prepare for a G.E.
The 27 rolling about laughing once more at the biggest clusterf**k in UK history
Parbucks and Captain even the most fervent ardent Tory supporter cannot be happy with what they have witnessed since Dominic came to power from a front bench of miscreants
We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
Post Edited (Tue 22 Oct 17:13)
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Tue 22 Oct 17:24
I’ll confine my comments to Bercow.
He has not just become “bad at his job”.
Cameron when PM in a coalition government tried to get rid of him but the opposition including LibDems opposed the motion.
He was re-elected more recently because a mainly Remain parliament knowing his bias in their favour saw him as an ally.
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Tue 22 Oct 17:35
If Cameron wanted rid of Bercow that surely stands in Bercow's favour. History is unlikely to view Cameron as anything other than one the poorest of UK PMs. The efforts of May and Johnson (thus far) are unlikely to be judged highly either, but they at least have the excuse of operating in the post Cameronian catastrophe that was a Brexit referendum.
'He was re-elected more recently because a mainly Remain parliament knowing his bias in their favour saw him as an ally.'
That may be true, but if so it begs an interesting question: why did a UK electorate that voted Brexit in 2016 then decide a year later to elect a pro-Remain parliament?
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Tue 22 Oct 17:47
The UK electorate tend to have very short memories. Most of them seem to have forgotten already that the 'natural party of government' is responsible for this fiasco with a series of catastrophic errors and misjudgements.
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Tue 22 Oct 18:03
“why did a UK electorate that voted Brexit in 2016 then decide a year later to elect a pro-Remain parliament?“
In 2017 over 80% of the electorate voted for parties that promised to implement the referendum result. Unfortunately many MP’ s actions in Parliament do not reflect how their constituents voted.
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Tue 22 Oct 18:24
This anomaly lies at the heart of why Brexit has been a constitutional disaster. How did this happen?
Were many MPs crypto-Remainers who were hiding their true colours in order to be elected?
Did many MPs, when faced with the devil in the detail, realise that Brexit was a suicide note?
Did the Tory government fail to attract sufficient crossbench support necessary to pass legislation?
Were the divisions between fanatical and moderate Brexiteers too large for them to vote together until it was too late?
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Topic Originator: moviescot
Date: Tue 22 Oct 19:12
I hate Brexit. It's just wrong. After all it's not Britain that is trying to leave is it?
Stupid made up word and whoever coined it needs a good slap
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Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Tue 22 Oct 19:50
Wee Eck is right - there has been one party, and one party only, in government throughout this entire fiasco yet they continue to blame everyone else.
They are also the party of personal responsibility and economic conservatism Wee eck, although you wouldn't know from looking at them...
"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Tue 22 Oct 20:01
The irony is they want to have a general election and turn it into a one-issue campaign knowing that the English electorate will probably fall for it.
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Tue 22 Oct 20:09
Their biggest misjudgement was to allow Theresa May to get elected by default and three wasted years “negotiating” with the EU.
Boris in three months got the Withdrawal Agreement reopened and the hated backstop changed. Things we were told by the EU and Remainers could never happen.
Juncker himself said: there is always a deal to be done.
As for the DUP throwing their toys out they just don’t want democracy in the NI
Assembly as they are too used to being in a supremacy position on NI affairs in Westminster.
One of their own, Lord Trimble, a Nobel Peace Prize winner and signatory to the GFA is on record as saying it gives NI the best of both worlds.
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Tue 22 Oct 20:21
Parbucks
If you honestly believe what you have just posted then heaven help you
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Tue 22 Oct 20:27
Bpp
I accept you might not agree with me but it would be helpful to know the specifics.
Then we could have a meaningful discussion instead of a nebulous comment. 🤔
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Tue 22 Oct 20:43
I find it amusing how Johnson is being hailed as a hero for bringing back a deal when everyone acknowledges it's a worse deal than May's. He only got it by making more concessions to the EU on N Ireland. Yesterday we saw the Brexit secretary having to backtrack on his explanation of how tariffs would operate between NI and GB because he didn't actually understand how they would work.
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Tue 22 Oct 20:50
Parbucks sorry I did not mean to be rude
Surely Dominic was elected by default aussi
The deal Dominic has is 95% T.M's deal with concessions in favour of the EU
Yes he has changed the wording of the backstop and moved the border check out to sea but to the detriment of N.I. with worse tariff implications than T.M's
Junker said there is always a deal to be done and he is right that is the basis of trade and dealings
Surely you cannot be happy with what you watch and read with Dominics boy's Breenging playground politics
Hedge fund managers erses twitching methinks :-)
We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
Post Edited (Tue 22 Oct 20:57)
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Tue 22 Oct 20:54
Wee eck
How can you say it’s a worse deal when May’s never got to and passed a Second Reading?
As for concessions on NI the current proposal solves the backstop, maintains the GFA and is supported by one of the most influential politicians in NI in the last 30 years.
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Tue 22 Oct 20:56
Bpp
See response above.🤔
I thought Grieve was an opponent of Brexit 😯
Post Edited (Tue 22 Oct 20:59)
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Tue 22 Oct 21:07
Seen it parbucks
Dominic has tried to bluster and bully this deal through in record time but in doing so he is the victim of his own arrogance
Yes it got a second reading but that is where it will be scrutinised studied and dismantled
Dominic has now kept his 100% lying record
Lying and brinkmanship thank goodness he never played 3 card brag
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Tue 22 Oct 21:09
Think he would be perfect at brag
He would be unpredictable, call the bluffs, up the stakes and win in the end.
All that despite the hand he was dealt by May: a minority government and a lousy Brexit deal.
Post Edited (Tue 22 Oct 21:15)
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Tue 22 Oct 21:15
Touche parbucks
away oot wi the dug noo then bedbaws
maybe discuss the morn ? ..... take care
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Tue 22 Oct 21:23
Cheers mate.
Enjoy.
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Tue 22 Oct 22:09
Parbucks,
Democracy in Northern Ireland? You must know your history better than that: the state was formed as militant refusal to accept parliamentary legislation.
Johnson’s arithmetic is better than mine, but not by much. He has forced the Spartans to see the error of their ways, and his soft Brexiteers as well, which is more than Theresa May was able to do. So he has finally been able to win a vote in parliament! He is not dead in a ditch. He has not lost his shirt. He has divided the UK from Northern Ireland and asked the UK to collect the taxes on behalf of the EU, the better to ‘take back control.’ And he has asked for an extension he vowed would never happen. He cannot deliver a Brexit by 31st October as he promised, but apart from all that he has been true to his word.
He can now stand for election presumably, asking to lead the very parliament he prorogued in the name of sovereignty. He can claim he was the man who delivered, except he did not deliver, but that is mere sophistry in his eyes. Tonight he will be thanking the 19 Labour MPs who, when faced with a choice of protecting working people or their own careers in parliament, opted for the latter. These are people who wring their hands at child poverty and unemployment, maybe open the odd foodbank with a photo opportunity when they have time, but will be weeping genuine tears when the Queen dies.
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Tue 22 Oct 22:14
''Wee eck
How can you say it’s a worse deal when May’s never got to and passed a Second Reading?
As for concessions on NI the current proposal solves the backstop, maintains the GFA and is supported by one of the most influential politicians in NI in the last 30 years.''
MPs are desperate now. It's 'any deal is better than a no deal' and Johnson's is the only one left. His 'solution' to the backstop has cost him the support of the DUP and cost him approval of the WA on Saturday. Even Tory MPs say it's worse than May's. Now it looks like the EU will approve an extension to 31 Jan and his cunning plan has failed.
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Topic Originator: da_no_1
Date: Tue 22 Oct 22:20
How is it that anyone that wants to leave the EU doesn't fully understand what they voted for yet all the Remainers are fully knowledgeable about all things EU.
I guarantee 95% of both sides of the argument don't have the first fkn clue about any of it and couldn't spell EU pre 2016.
I voted remain btw.
"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Tue 22 Oct 22:40
Wee Eck,
The desperation is not on the Remainer side: they are confident that a second referendum would vote in their favour. Maybe a General Election too.
The desperation is with Brexiteers who have shot their bolt: by going for an ultra 'crash-out' Brexit which was never going to be accepted by their own business community, they are now more contrite and prepared to kiss the pig in lipstick that is BRINO 4. That's the one they mocked three times before when presented by Theresa May; in fact it could be argued that May's deal was a more attractive pig than what was placed before parliament today.
Eventually the issue is becoming clear cut. It is not BRINO 4 or Crash out: it is BRINO 4 or Remain.
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Topic Originator: Luxembourg Par
Date: Tue 22 Oct 22:53
Sammer
<The desperation is not on the Remainer side: they are confident that a second referendum would vote in their favour.>
1. Be overconfident like you were in the EU referendum
2. IF you got a "second referendum", and IF you won, why the f*ck should any Brexiteers respect it?
- would it suddenly be 'democracy' if your preferred choice won?
< Maybe a General Election too.>
There is Hee-Haw chance of Labour or Lib-Dems winning a GE
More chance of Farage and his bunch of nutters winning, or forcing a coalition with Tories...
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Tue 22 Oct 22:54
Sammer
We obviously disagree and I am aware of your left wing views.
Boris is above all pragmatic as are the labour MP’s who respect the views of their constituents. If some leeway is required to get Brexit done so be it.
If Parliament can’t agree then a general election is needed.
We already had a People’s Vote three years ago when the government said they would implement the result which was endorsed by the two main parties in 2017.
I find it hard to trust some MP’s who were elected on a party manifesto in 2017 and have since left that party but will not stand for re nomination in a by election. Some of them are now in their third party!
Stand up Chuka and Wollaston among others.
So much for representing the views of the people who elected them.
Hypocrites all.
Post Edited (Tue 22 Oct 22:56)
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Topic Originator: parsfan
Date: Tue 22 Oct 22:54
Quote:
moviescot, Tue 22 Oct 19:12
I hate Brexit. It's just wrong. After all it's not Britain that is trying to leave is it?
Stupid made up word and whoever coined it needs a good slap
Not only that but the country's split on how to pronounce it as well, assuming "Bregzit" is the same thing.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The universe is ruled by chance and indifference
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Tue 22 Oct 23:14
sammer
what sickens me to the core is that every man and his dog knew there was never going to be a no deal I think I posted that last year
BUT up until today Gove said the Tory government have stepped up the no deal preparations
Will we ever see a final cost analysis as to how much this no deal prep has cost the taxpayer ?
Also how much of the no deal budget was gifted to Tory donors ?
The wireless tells us every day to prepare for leaving the EU but there has never been any solid robust advice as to how to prepare for it
Check yer passport, check yer license, check yer health insurance, check yer medication etc. etc. all on prime time wireless at what cost ? and not one bit of constructive advice .... because ?..... they don't know either
Lets scare and bully the ordinary folk who we don't give a fek about and never have.... then pretend its for them, the will of the people who we misled and lied to and are still misleading and lying to
Britannia Unchained ..... aye right ..... get them all in chains ...just saying
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Tue 22 Oct 23:21
Luxemburg Par,
We can always argue about what democracy means. There was an EU vote in 1975 which is maybe ancient history, but far more conclusive at the time. There was another vote on the EU in 2016 which is regarded as a holy relic by the likes of Rees-Mogg. I’m not sure what status another referendum would have and would avoid them as a means of government; surely that much we have learned from Brexit. It is one thing to elect MPs, rather like a board appoints a football manager: it is another thing to try to tell the person in charge what you want them to do- for example play attacking football- without having the responsibility of making it happen.
Parbucks,
As a left winger I have generally been opposed to the EU and its rich man’s club mentality. When I was in Athens two years ago I witnessed a visceral hatred towards the EU that would have shocked Tommy Robinson. However the day I vote to leave the EU will be a day when I can see something better. Farage, Rees-Mogg, Johnson and the rest of the millionaires do not convince me on that score, with their eyes fixed on a regulation free UK prepared to sell its people and NHS to the highest bidder. Their contempt for working people- the mugs who have not acquired enough capital to run a business- is well established. The Europhiles have still to convince me too: after three years all I hear from them is danger and warnings, hardly anything about the benefits of being a citizen in the EU, unless I run a business. No wonder people voted like they did.
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Tue 22 Oct 23:28
Quote:-
Luxembourg par
< Maybe a General Election too.>
There is Hee-Haw chance of Labour or Lib-Dems winning a GE
More chance of Farage and his bunch of nutters winning, or forcing a coalition with Tories...
The scary thing Lux is that you are spot on our next government will be a coalition between Tory and Brexit party's .... Boris and Nigel .... oh boy
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Tue 22 Oct 23:40
Sammer
May I point out it was not the “well off “ you alluded to that voted for Brexit but the people outside London in the Midlands, West Country, north west and north east who did. These are the people who felt negatively impacted by membership of the EU and are being sold down the river by a Remainer Parliament.
Please don’t insult us by saying we didn’t know what we voted for.
I think you have answered yourself on the EU conundrum by quoting your experience in Greece. It doesn’t work for everyone. That is the problem with the Project. One size doesn’t fit all.
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Tue 22 Oct 23:43
How are those in the midlands, south west and north east going to be helped by leaving the EU?
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Tue 22 Oct 23:43
Zzzzzzzzz time
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Tue 22 Oct 23:49
Buspasspar,
I would not be so resigned to that eventuality. Farage has never won so much as a parliamentary seat yet and his one Party policy of Brexit has already been largely absorbed by Johnson, with the nod and a wink that total a break and deregulation lie just down the road. Farage has less chance of winning a seat than the Green Party, who at least have an MP.
Brexit weariness might act against Johnson and his disingenuous people v parliament campaign. Maybe people will realise that they are electing a government rather than a policy and vote on wider issues, with a more long term perspective. The oxygen of a GE might be invigorating. Remember too that the scrutiny Johnson has feared for his 'pig in lipstick' Brexit will be scrutinised in public forums at a General Election way beyond his greatest fears. He will be fighting a defensive campaign, never the best way to approach a GE.
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Tue 22 Oct 23:56
'May I point out it was not the “well off “ you alluded to that voted for Brexit but the people outside London in the Midlands, West Country, north west and north east who did. These are the people who felt negatively impacted by membership of the EU and are being sold down the river by a Remainer Parliament.
Please don’t insult us by saying we didn’t know what we voted for.'
Yes they did. London as a metropolis was opposed to Brexit generally, but the majority of the Brexit vote came from voters comfortably off in their middle to late age. There were areas you mentioned which contributed to the Brexit vote but the core Brexit vote came from more affluent areas.
Nor was the Brexit referendum the biggest vote in UK history. That came in 1992 when the population of the UK was 10% lower than in 2016.
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Topic Originator: Mario
Date: Wed 23 Oct 07:25
The “wireless” Busspasspar...lovely, none of that new fangled radio nonsense for you.
I have a hunch that Ken Bruce and Pop master is the highlight of your morning, and like me 1030 will see you all a quiver, pen and paper at the ready, praying that Sixties pop groups will the one of the bonus questions?
And do you also keep score with the Missus, and get a daily trouncing as she has some knowledge of stuff from this century because she listens to Radio Forth when she does the ironing?
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Wed 23 Oct 09:22
Mario
That made me smile
I still have the sobel transistor wireless my Gran bought me for Christmas from Pattersons the electrical shop in Kincardine 1959 ish
They would also come and change the valves in the wee telly when it went on the blink in the 60's
Also they re-charged the accumulator which powered my Grans wireless as she had no electric
Ah the memories ...... can still hear the hiss from the gas mantles and the marble rattling in the bottom of the kettle on the black lead grate
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Topic Originator: Mario
Date: Wed 23 Oct 12:55
And scraping the ice off the inside of the bedroom window after crawling out from under the blankets...my dad’s old Home Guard greatcoat being the top layer.
These middle aged softies don’t know how lucky they are.
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Wed 23 Oct 15:05
Mario correct
Our house had condensation on the outside of the windows :-)
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Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert
Date: Wed 23 Oct 19:08
Ah the Services duvet, whilst watching your Christmas parcels being delivered by bus, after scraping ice off your Dollytown window!😎
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Thu 31 Oct 19:04
Parliament will never be the same without him I watched his deputy who denied 16 year olds plus eu nationals the vote amendment and the Lady deputy who had to shout on Bercow to help her as she said .... caught on her mike .... I don't know what to say ..... Would love him to stay on
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Topic Originator: ipswichpar
Date: Thu 31 Oct 20:57
Just accuse them of pettifogging....easy
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