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Topic Originator: desparado
Date: Fri 13 Sep 21:37
31% support Welsh independence now.
41% would support it after Brexit.
~50% want Scottish independence now.
51% would vote for Irish reunification now.
The Union is basically dead on its feet. https://t.co/4m7PkE6HVY
Notice that the rise in those wanting Welsh independence is reported in newspapers and on TV down there unlike up here where it is suppressed generally.
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Topic Originator: Mario
Date: Fri 13 Sep 22:09
You forgot to mention that the same poll, held by the Welsh version of the Nats incidentally, reported that if a referendum was held tomorrow only 24% of them would vote to leave.
Not suppressed either. In the Herald.
Post Edited (Fri 13 Sep 22:11)
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Fri 13 Sep 22:21
It's not suppressed anywhere Mario. I'm fed up with all this nonsense about media bias. The fact that all sides think that the media is against them is all the proof I need.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe
Date: Fri 13 Sep 22:33
Back onto the original headline, unionists ought to be worried.
It used to be the case it was 'only' Scottish Nats they had to worry about but Welsh nats are also on the rise as well as Irish unification feelings.
It's going to be harder and harder for the UK government to use their usual tactics when faced with an island backlash growing by the minute.
Zwei Pints Bier und ein Päckchen Chips bitte
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Topic Originator: desparado
Date: Fri 13 Sep 22:37
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Fri 13 Sep 22:21
It's not suppressed anywhere Mario. I'm fed up with all this nonsense about media bias. The fact that all sides think that the media is against them is all the proof I need.
You seriously think the media in Scotland is not biased against independence ?
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Fri 13 Sep 22:53
Towk the Media especially the government controlled media are 100% biased as is the BBC
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Fri 13 Sep 23:04
No I don't because social media is the biggest medium and even five years ago it had bigger engagement than the biggest newspaper. I'm more or less a supporter of independence but the absolute guff I see spouted online, yet proclaimed to be true, is unbelievable. Anyway back to the original point, what does it matter what polls say. Even if we had a referendum tomorrow and 'yes' won, we'd then have to negotiate the terms of the separation and then have another vote. After all the electorate wouldn't have known what they were voting for the first time right? Ultimately people don't care, as long as Facebook is up and Netflix is running they'll stick with the status quo.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Fri 13 Sep 23:06
So Buspasslar do you agree with the likes of Farage and Yaxley-Lennon who believe that the Beeb is based against them?
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Fri 13 Sep 23:19
TWOK,
'Ultimately people don't care, as long as Facebook is up and Netflix is running they'll stick with the status quo.'
The experts were probably saying the equivalent in St. Petersburg in 1917. In fact there is plenty of evidence to suggest that most Russian people then just 'wanted to get on with it.' Politics ultimately relies on the mass of the people, but the ideas are long in germination which move the mass. Lenin spent about 30 years preparing for a revolution he thought would never happen in his own lifetime, and was for a time reluctant to take control of it. The groundwork had begun in the 1880s.
It seems to me that the case for Scottish Independence has sunk deep into the political consciousness of the Scottish people across all ages and classes. Even those opposed to it recognise its force. Young people in Scotland, perhaps because of Netflix and Facebook, constitute a clear majority for independence. Go to the north of England and visit Sunderland, Hartlepool and Hull, as I have done in the last two years and you can feel a resignation to life, an embittered apathy, which is not so palpable in Scotland.
sammer
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Fri 13 Sep 23:42
Fortunately for Lenin he didn't live to see the consequences of his revolution. Not so fortunate for those he left behind who had to endure the Great Purge of the 30s with Yeshov and Bersia murdering hundreds of thousands of the very people the revolt was supposed to aid. 'We must do this for greater good comrade' was no doubt the rallying cry.
I'm going to guess the resignation felt by the people of Sunderland, Hartlepool and Hull isn't going to be improved when the Brexit they voted for (working class types, didn't understand what they for voting don't you know) doesn't come to fruition. I suspect we'll find to our cost that those people aren't as apathetic as you suspect if we don't leave the EU.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: Lebowski
Date: Sat 14 Sep 00:00
English nationalism and the impacts thereof will prove to be the death of the union. Ironically.
What we are seeing down south is the systematic land grab of the establishment class to reinforce and restate their position as the ruling class and all that comes with that. In England they have fallen for it. Shame, good luck and all the best. It will not end well.
The outer reaches of the union have dismissed this as they have seen first hand what an unleashed right of centre establishment can deliver. Regardless of political hue, being honest, the last 3 years have shone a light on the fragility and ineptitude of UK political structures.
Yes I think it is dying. I think it will take a while yet for it to be a majority to ratify (Scottish independence as anti SNP vibe is stronger than constitutional reform appetite) but by that time it will be too late. All of the UK will be Donald Ducked. Except for those who can profit short term (shorting the pound and betting against uk stocks - see list of BoJo backers for correlation as well as JRM).
Who benefits from leaving the EU and to what extent? Car workers in Sunderland? Office workers in Swindon? Tim Martin's employees at Wetherspoons?
Success in this whole thing has been to make a Stooshie out of **** all and create fervent feeling and resentment out of a target that is pretty benign instead of targeting the people who are slapping us in the back whilst lifting our wallets.
How many people marched on UK streets in 2015 demanding UK exit from EU?
The nub of this is tax avoidance and evasion pure and simple....
Post Edited (Sat 14 Sep 00:15)
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Sat 14 Sep 00:24
How many people marched on the streets and demanded a Scottish independence vote ten years ago?
Is leaving EU going to help car makers in Sunderland? Almost certainly not but that's not a convincing argument to someone in South Shields who doesn't work for Nissan and has absolutely no prospects of ever getting such a lucrative job to support continued EU membership. Are the working class people in seaside towns along the English coast leavers because they are wanting to evade tax? Did the populace of the industrial ghost towns of South Wales vote leave to aid Tory establishment types in the home counties avoid tax duties? No no they have been manipulated by clever politicians I guess.
If so is that the same reason that Glasgow and Dundee voted in the majority for independence? Oh of course not because they were enlightened I suppose. Couldn't fool them.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: Mario
Date: Sat 14 Sep 07:07
25% of Glaswegians were so enthused by whole Indy debate they forgot to vote.
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Topic Originator: Mario
Date: Sat 14 Sep 07:35
I wouldn’t say the BBC are totally fixated by Brexit, they don’t blame it for the weather.
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Topic Originator: Lebowski
Date: Sat 14 Sep 08:10
Quote:
The One Who Knocks, Sat 14 Sep 00:24
How many people marched on the streets and demanded a Scottish independence vote ten years ago?
Is leaving EU going to help car makers in Sunderland? Almost certainly not but that's not a convincing argument to someone in South Shields who doesn't work for Nissan and has absolutely no prospects of ever getting such a lucrative job to support continued EU membership. Are the working class people in seaside towns along the English coast leavers because they are wanting to evade tax? Did the populace of the industrial ghost towns of South Wales vote leave to aid Tory establishment types in the home counties avoid tax duties? No no they have been manipulated by clever politicians I guess.
If so is that the same reason that Glasgow and Dundee voted in the majority for independence? Oh of course not because they were enlightened I suppose. Couldn't fool them.
My argument was not to compare referenda. I think that they are entirely separate in motivation both from those leading the push for it and those voting for it. I'm no fervent nationalist by the way so conflating the two is not what I was intending to get at (appreciate your points in response though)
The question in the thread is about whether the union is dying and has the the last 3 years contributed to that. I would argue yes and the polls would appear to suggest that direction of travel.
My point re numbers of marches is a flippant illustrative point. Leaving the EU was not high up the agenda of many people until the referendum itself. The referendum was a direct result of internal tensions within the Tory party, a political group not renowned for their representation of the working classes.
The trick that the right leaning Tories have managed to pull is to hoodwink large parts of working class areas in England and Wales to believe that the EU is somehow responsible their situation preying on base fears that the Tory party is at least in part responsible for.
Not sure what your point is re leavers on seaside towns wanting to evade tax? That was hardly part of my point - merely the motivation for the right leaning political classes to begin manipulation of the electorate.
I ask a simple question of leave voters in working class areas. In what way do Boris/JRM/ Gove at al represent you and your views on any policy areas.
For whatever reason (various) Scotland and NI have not bought the **** on a stick. That's created a further widening of the political landscape in the UK and supports the further deterioration of the union in my view.
Do I know why South Shields voted to leave the EU while Dundee voted for independence? Nope, but that's not the question asked in this thread.
Has Brexit created a further perception of democratic deficit and pushed more people.towards thinking that independence might be their best option? Yes, I think so.
Post Edited (Sat 14 Sep 08:12)
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Topic Originator: desparado
Date: Sat 14 Sep 11:41
The Tories should never win an election in England...they don’t in Scotland.
They need working class people to vote for them to win a majority.
Those Politicians in favour of Brexit, for tax avoidance and other selfish reasons could not have won it without the working class vote. How do you get the working classes to vote for something that will probably not benefit them in the least? How do you get people to vote for an act of self harm?
Well fire a few sound bites out there...” taking back control “. “Make Britain Great again” roll out the triumphalism, “we won the war you know” play the race card and wrap it all up in a Union Jack. .Those suckers will fall for that every time.....and they did.....well in England and Wales.
Scotland in particular does not tend to feel those same emotions regarding Britain’s “ Glorious “ past and hence we did not fall for it.
English nationalism is on the rise. It IS different to Scottish nationalism.
Violent thugs tend to associate themselves with English nationalism, it has history, NF, BNP , EDL, Yaxley, Lennon , UKIP.
Ironically it is the rise of British aka English nationalism that will bring about the end of the Union.
Things are turning nasty in England and when Brexit finally happens in what ever shape or form I fear it could all kick off down there.
We need to get away from this ASAP.
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Topic Originator: Captain Desmond Fancey
Date: Sat 14 Sep 12:28
The Union will outlive all of us. I'm in no doubt about that at all.
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Sat 14 Sep 12:32
TOWK
The Beeb is biased against any one that the Government tells them to be
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Sat 14 Sep 12:38
So the BBC is pro brexit then?
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Sat 14 Sep 13:29
TOWK
Am no after an argument lifes too short Its not just the wrong info coming from the Beeb it is also the stuff they don't tell us about that is just as worrying
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Sat 14 Sep 13:54
I'm not after argument either I just happen to disagree with you. Many leavers think that the Beeb is pro remain but if they do the governments bidding then they'll be trying to influence us to back brexit now.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: Jbob
Date: Wed 18 Sep 19:42
On its last legs
Bobs of the world unite
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Wed 18 Sep 20:22
As for the Beeb they didn’t even cover the events in the Supreme Court today on the 6 pm news unless I blinked.
No surprise then as today was primarily presenting the government’s case unlike yesterday when they gave prime billing to Gina Miller’s QC presenting the case to declare prorogation unlawful.
Blatant bias but nothing new from them.
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Topic Originator: moviescot
Date: Wed 18 Sep 21:16
Quote:
parbucks, Wed 18 Sep 20:22
As for the Beeb they didn’t even cover the events in the Supreme Court today on the 6 pm news unless I blinked.
No surprise then as today was primarily presenting the government’s case unlike yesterday when they gave prime billing to Gina Miller’s QC presenting the case to declare prorogation unlawful.
Blatant bias but nothing new from them.
They covered it in great detail at the one o'clock news. About half the whole program.
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Wed 18 Sep 22:14
How many watch the 1 o’clock versus the 6 o’clock? Was it not as relevant later for those who were working or out during the day?
Very strange.
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Wed 18 Sep 22:38
It was also on the 10 o'clock news.
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Wed 18 Sep 22:47
Again, why not the 6 o’clock?
I gave up and watched ITV.
Post Edited (Wed 18 Sep 22:49)
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Topic Originator: parsfan
Date: Wed 18 Sep 23:14
Aren't the BBC biased in favour of the government? I'm sure someone said that recently.
Channel Four News (ITN) didn't cover it either.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The universe is ruled by chance and indifference
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Topic Originator: moviescot
Date: Thu 19 Sep 07:44
Quote:
parbucks, Wed 18 Sep 22:47
Again, why not the 6 o’clock?
I gave up and watched ITV.
It was also on the BBC news channel every half hour all day. It was also top story most of the day on the web.
You cannot say they did not cover it. That's just a rubbish comment.
Anyway, who watches the 6 o'clock news. 😀
Post Edited (Thu 19 Sep 07:45)
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Topic Originator: moviescot
Date: Thu 19 Sep 07:46
Quote:
parbucks, Wed 18 Sep 22:14
How many watch the 1 o’clock versus the 6 o’clock? Was it not as relevant later for those who were working or out during the day?
Very strange.
I watch the 1 o'clock news and avoid the 6 o'clock.
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Thu 19 Sep 08:41
I think it's dead as far as Brexit is concerned. It's clear that this enormous decision is favoured by England and Wales rather than Scotland and N.Ireland. As much as we say we're all the same, this makes it more apparent than ever that we're not as close as we thought we were.
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Thu 19 Sep 09:22
It's not dead as long as HMQ can give a nod and a wink in its favour.
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Topic Originator: aaaaaaaaaargh
Date: Thu 19 Sep 09:29
The BBC is a Marxist, Brexit-supporting organisation that is clearly anti-Corbyn, anti-Scottish, pro-EU, and gives Nicola Sturgeon and Nigel Farage too much airtime.
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Topic Originator: DBP
Date: Thu 19 Sep 12:39
The only poll that matters is the one held via an election up here.
If the majority of voters vote for a party who's manifesto says they will hold or support another indy ref (SNP, Greens, SSP?) then that is what the Scottish people want (regardless of any individuals view)... Equally if the reverse is true and the majority of voters vote for parties who oppose another indy ref, then again that is the Scottish people expressing what they do or do not want
Meantime any vocalisation of "what the people of Scotland want" is nothing more essentially stating "what I want"
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Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Thu 19 Sep 16:56
Plenty of people vote for pro-indy parties for reasons other than Indy though.
They all have other policies which pro-union folk might prioritise.
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Topic Originator: DBP
Date: Thu 19 Sep 18:40
Plenty people voted for Labour who support indy... Swings and roundabouts
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Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Thu 19 Sep 20:32
Exactly, the waters are muddied so it's not a reasonable indicator.
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