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 Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: desparado  
Date:   Sat 2 Nov 11:02

Former Lib Dumb provost now backs SNP

Former Labour Councillor now backs SNP.

Polls way over 50% now and rising.

It will start with a trickle and become a tsunami.........it is coming.
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Sat 2 Nov 11:36

So we had a chat about childish name-calling when you were away and I think that the conclusion was that it is childish. Just so you know.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: desparado  
Date:   Sat 2 Nov 11:49

I need to get my predictive text recalibrated.....
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Sat 2 Nov 12:10

pmsl
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sat 2 Nov 12:48

Yeah but the prevailing opinion seemed to be it was only childish if it was aimed at the snp.

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Sat 2 Nov 12:51

Quote:

The One Who Knocks, Sat 2 Nov 12:48

Yeah but the prevailing opinion seemed to be it was only childish if it was aimed at the snp.


No. It's always childish
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Sat 2 Nov 13:12

What polls are we talking about here?
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Sat 2 Nov 14:27

Aye, it's always childish but sometimes it gets mentioned a lot and sometimes it doesn't.

I don't actually mind a bit of childishness if it's creative to be honest.

Like the first time I heard someone called Trump "Cheeto Bonito" I have to admit that I laughed.

I want kinder politics but I also want to laugh - it's a bit of a dilemma!

"Lib Dumb" does't make me laugh so I call it childish. If it made me laugh I'd call it funny instead, that's how selfish I am!


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Sat 2 Nov 15:28

Funny thing about the Lib Dems is people mock them but they've probably got better policies than both Labour and the Tories. The issue is that we have such a binary electorate (Scotland excluded).
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy  
Date:   Sat 2 Nov 17:36

Honestly, I hold Master Degrees in Chemistry and Astrophysics but I've been told on various occasions by Unionists that I'm "uneducated" because I support the idea that Scotland could fo better as an independent state. You really couldn't make this garbage up! The UK hangs on to the old adage of "experience wins the day" but zero percent of them have any experience of how different governmental systems function. It'd actually be quite funny if it wasn't an impactful matter!
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sat 2 Nov 18:37

Hj there are plenty of highly educated university types who say Scotland is better served as part of the union. I mean you're field of expertise is science and not political governance so if someone with a degree in a political field was to say that independence isn't in Scotland's interest should I pay more attention to that opinion that yours?
I'm broadly in favour of Scottish independence but I can't be certain that it's the correct belief. Quite frankly nobody can know one way or the other which is why I just wish both sides would conduct the debate with the notion in the back of their minds that the other side might be right.

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: desparado  
Date:   Sat 2 Nov 19:43

Lib Dem’s got better policies , I stopped reading / laughing at that point .....
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy  
Date:   Sat 2 Nov 22:27

TOWKS, the UK is a country that clings to the old ideological cliche that hierarchy must be maintained at all costs. In my experience, this is more prevalent in England that in Scotland too. Frankly, very few of our current political crop are worthy of the positions they hold in terms of work experience and/or education - Joanna Cherrie and Philippa Whiteford are two exceptions that spring readily to mind.

One example of this idea that comes to mind: I studied Nuclear Chemistry and Physics quite in depth and was roundly mocked on this board for suggesting that Thorium Nuclear energy presented a viable environmentally friendly alternative for our energy needs, mainly by posters who were older than me and much of it boiled down to the fact that said posters felt I was lacking in "life experience". That said, my Japanese mrs has had it even worse: she taught English language in the Osaka Schools district for a good few years and had supervisors who had been English teachers for 30+ years but could not actually hold a conversation in English, yet they were supposed to teach it. I recognise I have waffled a tad, but the main point here is that the UK seems to lean toward valuing age, hierarchy etc as opposed to garnered expertise. One could even surmise that this could be the reason why the UK is one of the slowest countries to modernise in Europe. This can be seen in Japan too with the bursting of their economic bubble back in the 90s, where much of the damage could have been mitigated had they been more flexible.

To be frank as well - and I realise I run the risk of sounding elitist - there is little comparison in terms of difficulty between a humanities degree and a Mathematically based degree in Physical Science or Engineering. I can say this with the experience of taking Economics, History, Japanese and Russian modules as electives and having done a PGCE in England where I literally wrote a load of bumph that apparently equated to Upper Second and First class passes in Pedagogy at Masters level.

I agree with your sentiment that the Independence argument is indeed an argument that is there to be won. When it comes down to it though, I would say that the Unionists are basically in a fight against progress and can't seem to accept the fact that the Holyrood juggernaut cannot be stopped - we are at a point where it is politically unacceptable to remove powers from Holyrood, while there is a simultaneous desire to empower it further. The question is where will that stop? Short answer is that it won't and we might as well accept it and get on with creating a Scottish State.



Post Edited (Sat 02 Nov 22:29)
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: Mario  
Date:   Sun 3 Nov 06:49

Brain of Britain is still on steam radio HJ. Better get a move on before the big split.

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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Sun 3 Nov 10:17

Apart from not backing independence, which the MAJORITY of Scotland still don't back, what policies do you find so funny, desperado? Is it taxing the rich more? Increasing college places? Providing more funding for our schools and hospitals? Improving our mental health services? Yes, my sides are splitting. 🙄

Not expecting a proper response given you still haven't replied about which poll you were referring to. The one at your SNP group meeting doesn't count.
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Sun 3 Nov 11:54

I wasn't so keen on some of their previous policies to be honest jake.

In fact a great many of the policies which they have actually enacted whilst in government have been awful and destructive. All of which were voted for by the current LibDem leadership and have brought us to where we are today (I imagine that they are proudly reminding us of this, right?)

Labour's plans to improve those areas you mention seem far more radical and in line with what's actually required, rather than taking the "what Auschwitz needs is more female guards" approach to social improvement.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy  
Date:   Sun 3 Nov 12:06

Jake - In fairness Jake, we don't actually know whether the Majority of Scots back independence or not. Most polls seem to have yes and no swaying around the 46/47% mark. Bare in mind though that these polls compose only 1000 participants which equates to 0.03% of the voting population, assuming an electorate of 3.5Mn people which I think is fairly accurate. Making a definitive statement on the basis of one of these polls is folly.

When it comes down to it though, 70%+ of the voting electorate in Scotland go for Social/Liberal Democratic parties. The SNP are unquestionably guilty of poor management and of making public services Glasgow-centric, but have by and large stuck to the principles of services that are free at point of need as opposed to adopting the abjectly corrupt trust system that is seen in England. If the Labour and Liberal parties had any integrity, they would join the SNP in enshrining these values in a written constitution for Scotland rather than wrapping themselves in the British flag and risking Tory government. Meanwhile, if the SNP had any gumption then they would be exploiting this point to the max and have a draft Constitution prepared. Scotland does need a change of Government, but the fact is that none of the opposition parties in Holyrood are fit to govern or even perceived as such by the wider public. The reality is that the SNP will be in power until independence is delivered and will hold a vote share around the 40% mark minimum.
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Sun 3 Nov 13:19

Those same polls are incredibly consistent in suggesting we don't want independence. I'll put it out there that I'm broadly in favour of independence but if the majority don't want it...

Not a big fan on the Lib Dems (still question their decision to side with the Tories and their battle bus used to block the road at Haymarket all the time 😂) but to say it's laughable to suggest they may have better policies than Labour is taking it a bit far.

I've always felt the Lib Dems are fence sitters, which is an issue in itself, but also avoids the radical reforms posed by the other two major parties.

The key thing I would expect the majority of the UK agrees on is looking at how we can tax the rich people and big companies so that we can improve services for those who need them most.

The thing I'd tackle first is pushing particular agendas in the media. I jokingly called out Mario as a Tory for being a Mail subscriber but that rag is a major part of what is wrong with this country. Other media outlets aren't much better.
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Sun 3 Nov 13:49

''The key thing I would expect the majority of the UK agrees on is looking at how we can tax the rich people and big companies so that we can improve services for those who need them most.''

If that's the case why would anyone vote Tory? They get most of their funds from organisations and individuals who benefit from the laxity of the tax system and want to keep it that way.

The other dishonest aspect of the Tory election campaign is that they are actually railing against the austerity policies they put in place! They are the the champions of the public services they almost destroyed! How do people fall for this stuff?
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Sun 3 Nov 14:12

Labour isn't suggesting anything radical in real terms, only in relative terms.

Huge swathes of Europe is quite happily getting along as very successful liberal democracies with what the press in this country would have you believe are outright Marxist policies.

The LibDems and the SNP want to tinker at the edges of the failed Neocon experiment without actually ending it. Not even after it crashed the world economy again.

No, this time they decided that what was wrong was that the homeless and working families were cornering too much of the country's resources by expecting housing and food, the greedy sods, so what we need to do is take from them and give it to the poor banks who are skint for some reason.

It's not really the policies themselves which are the problem, it's the attitude. It's the way of looking at the world and the lack of any spine to really challenge what's going on.

The radical change in this country has been to drag us sharply to the right. The left has only just got its voice back and I, for one, am delighted. You can criticise Jeremy Corbyn for many things, but he has integrity in spades - he has stood for what he believes in for 40 years. Just like Johnston and his crew I suppose:



The same can't be said for the LibDems: they are just opportunists who con the young and naive into voting for them before immediately betraying them.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Sun 3 Nov 14:15

People vote Tory because they want Brexit. They are also easily swayed by the media.

Can guarantee a lot of those voting Tory this time round will be ex Labour supporters.
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Sun 3 Nov 14:25

What is it that the media wants though?

Whose interests are they serving?

Is it in the best interests of the country or its people?

Do the LibDems plan to do anything to end that?


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: desparado  
Date:   Sun 3 Nov 14:25

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18002245.new-poll-reveals-support-snp-scottish-independence/
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Sun 3 Nov 14:51

There ye go desparado


https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18002245.new-poll-reveals-support-snp-scottish-independence/
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: desparado  
Date:   Sun 3 Nov 15:40

Cheers. There was also an internal poll conducted by U.K. Gov with regards to Scottish independence done a few months ago that they refused to reveal the result of.......mmmm wonder why ?
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Sun 3 Nov 15:42

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-50280817
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Sun 3 Nov 15:56

Is that the same guy who said we'd be leaving the EU on 31 October?

By the way, has anyone ever shown evidence of this 'once-in-a-lifetime' quote about the last indyref? Wasn't it just a throwaway line in a political campaign like 'Brexit means Brexit', 'No deal is better than a bad deal' etc,etc.
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Sun 3 Nov 16:02

wee eck Spot on I can only hope he gets wiped out at the GE
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Sun 3 Nov 16:55

By the way, has anyone ever shown evidence of this 'once-in-a-lifetime' quote about the last indyref? Wasn't it just a throwaway line in a political campaign like 'Brexit means Brexit', 'No deal is better than a bad deal' etc,etc.

Not sure about that but I do remember it very clearly having a "significant change of circumstances" caveat.

It was "once in a generation" too, not "once in a lifetime" if memory serves? A generation is a pretty nebulous thing to be honest, and could be as little as ten years.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: Tenruh  
Date:   Sun 3 Nov 16:58

Dead in a Ditch
Now is not the time
There will never be a border down the Irish sea
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Sun 3 Nov 17:04

When BJ makes a statement or promise during this campaign I'd love to see an interviewer throw back at him some of his previous statements/promises which didn't come true and say 'Why should anyone believe you?' It won't happen though in the interests of 'balance'.
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Sun 3 Nov 17:35

A survey of Herald readers. Away you go! That's like finding out most Daily Mail readers would sell their granny if promised it would guarantee Brexit.
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Sun 3 Nov 17:53

Isn't the Herald part of the same newspaper group as the National which brought out a Sunday edition to distinguish itself from the Herald newspapers which do not support Independence?
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: desparado  
Date:   Sun 3 Nov 19:53

Jake ok what poll will you believe ? The Herald is pro union by the way .
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Sun 3 Nov 20:06

What is obvious is the headlines on all the newspapers when you see them displayed in a rack at the garage/supermarket or any outlet
The fake news absurd stories and downright misleading the public are the same Tory run media owned by millionaires wanna be billionaires and fek the people serves them right for buying our subterfuge
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: desparado  
Date:   Sun 3 Nov 22:43

https://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2019/11/election-2019-early-straws-in-wind-from.html?m=1
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: desparado  
Date:   Sun 3 Nov 22:45

https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2019/08/lord-ashcroft-my-scotland-poll-yes-to-independence-takes-the-lead.html
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: desparado  
Date:   Sun 3 Nov 22:46

There are plenty more Jake, waiting patiently for an intelligent reply ......
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Sun 3 Nov 22:57

The Herald is non-politically aligned though they did back a no vote. Their readers, however, are predominantly yes supporters.

As for polls...slightly awks That's a lot of red...

What you don't seem to get is that losing by a small margin is still losing. Much as I'm generally in favour of an independent Scotland, the SNP need to get their act together if they want it. Unlike England, most Scots don't vote blindly on the basis of messages on the side of buses.
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: desparado  
Date:   Sun 3 Nov 23:05

Wiki .. really? It gets tampered with more than the postal votes did at the 2014 Indy ref , maybe not as much as Ross Thomson’s victims in strangers bar though.
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Sun 3 Nov 23:13

There's literally a link to all the supporting evidence in that wikipedia entry if you'd care to look.

It even includes the Lord Ashcroft one you failed to link properly.

Desperado by name...
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: donj  
Date:   Sun 3 Nov 23:15

Jake I'm sure the polls were much less pro in 2014 but shot up.If I remember right Westminster had a poll they refused to release but next day came the vow for all that was worth.
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Sun 3 Nov 23:19

No doubt true, but one swallow does not a summer make. You need to see continual polling successes to draw conclusions.

Sadly, Scottish independence appears to still be a dream.
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: desparado  
Date:   Sun 3 Nov 23:34

Jake....its Des...par....ado ...for the hard of hearing. If I had a pound for every childish comment regarding my user name I would be even more rich than I am already.
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: aaaaaaaaaargh  
Date:   Mon 4 Nov 16:15

The polls (if well performed) just give you a snapshot of what a relatively small proportion of people think or say on a given day.

The polls, at the moment, show that the Tories are likely to get a (large) majority in December and that Scottish independence will be rejected again. This does not mean that this will be the outcome. It is just the most likely outcome if the votes are held today. This may, or may not, change in the coming weeks.

In 2014 and 2017 the polls detected both the surge in support for independence and the Labour party. The did not, and will never, give a perfect prediction of the outcome.
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: desparado  
Date:   Mon 4 Nov 21:55

We are not voting for Scottish independence in December .....
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Mon 4 Nov 22:24

Desparado, if the Tories get in, which is expected, Johnson has said he will reject a request for a referendum. Totally wrong given its expected the SNP will turn Scotland yellow at this election but what Westminster says, goes.
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: pacifist  
Date:   Mon 4 Nov 22:34

Westminster should know more than any other place that you can't hold a country against it's will.
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: donj  
Date:   Mon 4 Nov 23:23

Tories in England would be quite be happy to see the back of us and NI as they think they subsidize us.Surprising that the actual government is so desperate to keep a hold of Scotland.It might just be they have the real figures(not gers) and they refuse to throw away an asset.

Luckily we have Boris who is so dumb he might just let us go to keep his voters happy.
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Tue 5 Nov 01:37

A Labour/SNP coalition government would be a very interesting outcome...

:)
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Tue 5 Nov 08:26

Quote:

jake89, Sun 3 Nov 22:57

The Herald is non-politically aligned though they did back a no vote. Their readers, however, are predominantly yes supporters.

As for polls...slightly awks That's a lot of red...

What you don't seem to get is that losing by a small margin is still losing. Much as I'm generally in favour of an independent Scotland, the SNP need to get their act together if they want it. Unlike England, most Scots don't vote blindly on the basis of messages on the side of buses.


Scotland also has a surprisingly large number of citizens who are either English themselves or have English relations. I think it's safe to assume that most of them are unlikely to have voted Yes in the 2014 Referendum. I know a few such families myself.



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: Mario  
Date:   Tue 5 Nov 10:43

Yes, but wasn't just the non Scots to blame, there were about 1.8 million not real Scots Scots.
A lot of the English were actually "sleepers", imported over the decades by MI5 for that specific purpose. I recall strange beeping noises and much furtive phone peeking outside the polling station on that glorious September morn.
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Tue 5 Nov 10:56

Mario you are not too far off the mark
It was MI6
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Tue 5 Nov 10:59

Why are you against Scottish independence, Mario? I know from your posts you have a deep-rooted antipathy towards the SNP, but is there more to it than that?

Unionists rarely articulate their reasons for supporting the Union. We get meaningless phrases like 'our precious Union' from Theresa May' but what does that mean? Scotland was totally excluded from the EU negotiations for example. It's a bit like Trump talking about the 'special relationship' between the USA and the UK then imposing tariffs on British imports.
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: aaaaaaaaaargh  
Date:   Tue 5 Nov 11:06

I am largely in favour of Scottish independence, but only because I think Scotland needs to distance itself from the hard right wave that is sweeping over England and Wales.
I do wonder how many Scottish Conservative voters are indifferent about independence and wouldn't actually mind it if they had a centre-right government after separation.

There is no right-of-centre independence movement in Scotland. If one were to form then I think independence would be a certainty as it would give an alternative to the unionist Tories.
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy  
Date:   Tue 5 Nov 11:13

Mario's just a wee bit miffed because he is one of those who you describe GG. Funny though that most countries only allow their citizens to vote in referenda and elections.

Two Scenarios for me:

1) I'm a permanent resident in Sweden and awaiting my citizenship to clear and therefore can't vote for the Riksdag because I am not a citizen.

2) Not too far-fetched to say that the plebiscite for creating a new country/restoring full sovereignty (i.e. Scotland) would be those who would be entitled to become a citizen of said country (let's postulate under the current UK rules of 5 years) and are resident in the country at the time of the vote. Under that arrangement, I would lose my vote and rightly so.

Strange how in the minds of Labour and others that scenario #1 is perfectly acceptable yet scenario #2 is abjectly bigotted or racist or whatever.

In fact, tbh I'd advocate the creation of a "Scottish Resident Status" that entitles people from the Rest of the UK to the benefits of the Scottish system after 5 years of residence in Scotland. This actually exists in a sense already as you need to live in Scotland for 3 years as a non-EU national to gain access to tuition-free University. I've encountered a good few families over the years that have moved to Scotland to get their kids free uni - are these people not economic migrants of the same vain that the English so love to complain about?

As for the EU national angle, well Westminster were the ones who ramped up the tuition in England to £9k which I can say from experience of Durham University is an absolute rip-off when I compare to Lund, Heidelberg and Aberdeen. Fair to say that the English got a better deal going abroad than EU nationals did coming into England.



Post Edited (Tue 05 Nov 11:13)
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: Mario  
Date:   Tue 5 Nov 12:00

"Mario's just a wee bit miffed because he is one of those who you describe GG."

I'm not miffed GG, having voted for the winning side, but perhaps you could confirm if I should be because I've no idea what Windy Jim is slavering about.
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy  
Date:   Tue 5 Nov 12:12

Labour haven't won in quite a while auld yin...
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: Mario  
Date:   Tue 5 Nov 12:16

A John le Carre' fan Busspasspar?
Treated myself to the DVD's of the George Smiley novels that the BBC serialised. Jings I had to Google after every episode to workout what was going on!
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: Mario  
Date:   Tue 5 Nov 12:26

HJ..I was responding to GG, who was making some interesting points about the Indy ref and polls etc.
If you are too dumb to see that, perhaps some of your qualifications are not worth the paper they were photocopied on.
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Tue 5 Nov 12:33

Mario

Just watched the Callan box sets it was one of my all time favourites and although dated still worth watching
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy  
Date:   Tue 5 Nov 12:33

Dearie me Mario, you really do need grow up.
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: Mario  
Date:   Tue 5 Nov 12:44

Busspasser, if you ever have trouble dropping of in your scratcher, give on of HJ's epic up himself blatherings a go.
You will be dreaming about driving Doris Day around in your pink Cadillac in no time.
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy  
Date:   Tue 5 Nov 13:44

Tbh Mario, your disregard for fact and logical thinking really shows exactly why the UK is so far behind it's neighbours - you and your Trade Union pals ran the place into the ground enabled the Tories. That's why you'll never see your party in power again in your lifetime - you probably realise that and that's why you come across as so bitter. Someone of your generation woulf do far better to conduct yourself in a manner more akin to Marv or McCaig.
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: Mario  
Date:   Tue 5 Nov 14:38

HJ, still puzzled by your reference to only allowing “citizens” to vote in a referendum. Alluding to GG’s comment on how those of English birth or with English relations voted in our Indy ref?
Bit of a whiff about that, from the pair of you.
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy  
Date:   Tue 5 Nov 15:26

I said that those coming to Scotland from the rest of the UK should wait until holding a "Scottish Residence Status" before voting or receiving services such as tuition free university, which should be 5 years residence as is the case with UK Citizenship via naturalisation. There are many from other parts of the UK - including England, Wales and NI - that move to Scotland for better public services. The UK did not allow EU citizens to vote in the Brexit referendum, which I didn't see you complaining about. The UK allowed Irish and Commonwealth citizens to vote in the referendum, but what other countries in the world allow non-citizens to vote in constitutional referenda? You'll find its very few.

When it comes to EU citizens, at present our hands are tied by EU which says citizens from member states must be treated the same as home nationals. There was a big outcry when tuition fees were bumped up for English students in Scotland and the Labour party screamed "Anglophobia", when the reality is that if 10% of fresher English students came to Scotland then 80% of the total Scottish University places would be occupied. England had a chance to vote in regional government and turned it down, which would likely have cleaned up a good chuck of the mess in their public sector - more fool them.
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Tue 5 Nov 17:53

not sure what difference your relations should make to deciding if Scotland should take it's own place in the world.

my grandad (english) won't stop being my grandad, just like my wife (N.Irish) won't stop being my wife... and neither will be frogmarched out of the country!

in fact, both voted yes in 2014!
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Tue 5 Nov 20:00

It shouldn't matter where you're from. If you've chosen to make Scotland your home then you should have a say in its future. It's as simple as that.
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy  
Date:   Wed 6 Nov 07:42

Effectively it doesn't matter where you are from. The benchmark however is that you become a citizen of said country first and it's used the world over.
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Wed 6 Nov 19:45

If you were born in the UK or have UK citizenship then you automatically have a right to vote in Scotland if you live here. If we start making it so you have to have been in Scotland 5 years then do we apply the same locally? In that case I would be banned from voting in Dunfermline!

Post Edited (Wed 06 Nov 19:45)
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy  
Date:   Wed 6 Nov 20:30

Scotland and England are separate legal jurisdictions and have been since their inception. You're being a bit ridiculous with that comparison. Worth noting as well that by law, EU nationals should have equal voting rights yet the UK denied them a vote in the Brexit referendum.

Post Edited (Wed 06 Nov 20:31)
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Wed 6 Nov 23:01

HJ, what citizenship do you hold?
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: desparado  
Date:   Wed 6 Nov 23:08

I agree with HJ.

I find it ridiculous that students from rUK and people with holiday homes in Scotland had a vote in the Indyref. Similarly EU/ROW students also. It would probably not be allowed in any other country.

If you have made your home here and have been here for a minimum requirement say 5 years and intend to stay then fine.

Why should the above mentioned people who have little intention of staying in Scotland or who only stay here for a few days/weeks of the year have a vote on our constitutional future?

The new U.K. government hub that has been built in Edinburgh and is due to open next March at an extraordinary and unnecessary cost to Scottish tax payers will be stuffed with 3000 civil servants the vast majority who will be English will have a vote in the next Indy ref despite possibly only living in Scotland for a few months.....na.
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: Mario  
Date:   Thu 7 Nov 06:42

This is a staff relocation exercise. They already work in other offices in Edinburgh.
This has been going on for years, eg the Dept I joined in 1965 had offices scattered all over town but ended up in one big building in Chessor Ave.
Rest assured this is not a Sassenach invasion.
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Thu 7 Nov 07:19

Honest to God. The hub is effectively a cost saving exercise to close down existing offices scattered across Scotland and centralise to a single location in central Edinburgh. I can guarantee you it does not involve the sudden relocation of thousands of English people.

More to the point, why would it matter if it did? Is people choosing to make Scotland their home a bad thing? Or is it just English people who aren't welcome in Desparado's paradise?

Post Edited (Thu 07 Nov 07:20)
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: desparado  
Date:   Thu 7 Nov 15:04

Ok a sassenach invasion of 3000 is a bit of an exaggeration granted but my point still stands. Why should someone regardless of where they come from be allowed to vote in a constitutional issue if they have only been in a country for a few short weeks ?

Jake what are you slavering about insinuating anti English sentiment?

As I said in my previous post it would be people from all parts of the globe, including rUK who should in my opinion meet a certain criteria.

It is a moot point though as NS has already said that that anyone who lives here can vote in a future Indyref, including Students who have no clue about the history of Scotland and certainly no interest about the outcome ......mmm?
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Thu 7 Nov 15:07

Desparado, the language you and others have used on here does little to encourage people to back the SNP. It comes across as parochial with elements of xenophobia.
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: desparado  
Date:   Thu 7 Nov 17:50

Jake... xenophobia......? Really ? Examples please.

I am sure that you are intelligent enough to come to an informed decision as to who you will vote for without relying on anything you read on here.....then again......
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Thu 7 Nov 18:19

Picking out specifically English people then referring to them using a derogatory term.
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: desparado  
Date:   Thu 7 Nov 20:18

Oh grow up for gods sake.

Picking on English people.....pathetic, what age are you ?

I did not pick on any race, creed or colour , I said and I will say it again I don’t believe anyone not born in Scotland should be allowed to vote on constitutional issues until they have lived here for five years....that is my opinion. It is also what most countries in the world adhere to.

Derogatory name ? I assume you are referring to the word sassenach ?

That will make the ultra unionist Mario xenophobic as well then as I used the word in reply to his post when he first used the same word.

Jake you need to get a grip, accusing people of xenophobia is quite a serious accusation.

Many of my family are not Caucasian/Arian call it what you will, so you are barking up the wrong tree buddy by throwing those disgusting accusations at me......for expressing an opinion about voting rights......my wife had to be resident in the U.K. for three years to be entitled to vote, she is now a British citizen. I had no issue with that.

Scotland should be no different, especially when voting on something as important as independence, that is my view and it won’t change.

Now if I have offended you, petal, then tough. If you won’t vote SNP because of what I post on here then tough again I personally don’t give a flying f**k about shallow individuals like you.
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Thu 7 Nov 21:05

Not sure what age has to do with it but mine should be obvious by my username.

You've suggested the Government is planning an English invasion. Note you've said "English" rather than "non-Scots". You have specifically called out English people. So if the Government had an imaginary plan to fill Scotland with Welsh people it would be fine?

You've then used a derogatory term for English people. I'm sure the term is thrown around at SNP meetings as a joke but it's a derogatory term whether you like it or not.

I've no idea what the racial mix of your family has to do with your poor attitude to our English cousins. And it's "Aryan".

I understand that your disappointed that the Yes movement still isn't gaining enough momentum but if English people living in Scotland are seen as a barrier, why not target that group to convince them of the benefits?
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: Tenruh  
Date:   Thu 7 Nov 21:24

Quote:

jake89, Thu 7 Nov 21:05

Not sure what age has to do with it but mine should be obvious by my username.

You've suggested the Government is planning an English invasion. Note you've said "English" rather than "non-Scots". You have specifically called out English people. So if the Government had an imaginary plan to fill Scotland with Welsh people it would be fine?

You've then used a derogatory term for English people. I'm sure the term is thrown around at SNP meetings as a joke but it's a derogatory term whether you like it or not.

I've no idea what the racial mix of your family has to do with your poor attitude to our English cousins. And it's "Aryan".

I understand that your disappointed that the Yes movement still isn't gaining enough momentum but if English people living in Scotland are seen as a barrier, why not target that group to convince them of the benefits?


I've just returned from an SNP branch meeting with 23 attendees and 11 of the members were English... Just saying
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Thu 7 Nov 21:31

That's really positive to hear, Tenruh. Was desparado there checking they weren't government spies?
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: desparado  
Date:   Fri 8 Nov 09:11

I have never been to an SNP branch meeting.

Good to hear that there were a healthy amount of English folk at a branch meeting though.

English Scots for Yes is an established group and can be seen at all the main independence marches. Met them myself at a AUOB march.

Maybe more and more are starting to see the light ( back on topic) my English neighbour brought the subject of politics up over a coffee last week and I was pleasantly surprised to hear that he will be voting SNP at the GE and will “ probably “ vote Yes at the next Indy Ref. At that point I had to hurriedly leave and paint over the “ White settlers out “ slogan I had emblazoned along the side of his garage.
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Fri 8 Nov 09:27

LOL ^^^^^^
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 Re: Starting to see the light?
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Sat 7 Dec 13:40

Just a wee bump to share the latest poll:
Click here

People definitely seeing the light but perhaps not the one some want them to see.
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