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 Labour and anti-Semitism
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Fri 8 Nov 21:37

Has this always been a Labour thing? I don't recall this ever coming up before but suddenly Labour is allegedly filled with anti-Semites. Their previous leader was Jewish so this all seems a bit odd.
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 Re: Labour and anti-Semitism
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Fri 8 Nov 22:11

jake89
It is all false news and the bbc/Tory propaganda machine in full swing to discredit the labour party
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 Re: Labour and anti-Semitism
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Fri 8 Nov 23:04

It's more to do with the Labour Party attitude to Israel I would think. The Israeli lobby is extremely powerful both in the USA and the UK and given Jeremy Corbyn's acknowledgment of Hamas he is seen as a threat to the status quo. Being sympathetic to the Palestinian cause is seen as a threat to vested interests, so the issue has been flagged up as a way to modify the Labour Party approach.
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 Re: Labour and anti-Semitism
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Fri 8 Nov 23:22

I think it's more to do with the fact that in recent years a good number of anti semitic bigots have signed up to be Labour members. You know the types. The ones who are very critical of Israeli governmental policy (which can be a perfectly valid position) but insist they have nothing against the Jewish people personally but then come out with some stereotypical, ignorant, prejudiced remarks about Jews.

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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 Re: Labour and anti-Semitism
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Sat 9 Nov 05:42

Quote:

The One Who Knocks, Fri 8 Nov 23:22

I think it's more to do with the fact that in recent years a good number of anti semitic bigots have signed up to be Labour members. You know the types. The ones who are very critical of Israeli governmental policy (which can be a perfectly valid position) but insist they have nothing against the Jewish people personally but then come out with some stereotypical, ignorant, prejudiced remarks about Jews.


Such as?


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Labour and anti-Semitism
Topic Originator: Mario  
Date:   Sat 9 Nov 07:50

Such as “Shylock” ...another Labour candidate bites the dust
Anyway there must be a problem because the party admits it and conceded they have been too slow in dealing with it.
And things have come to a pretty pass when a particular community is so concerned that its leaders are urging a boycott of the party.
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 Re: Labour and anti-Semitism
Topic Originator: Rastapari  
Date:   Sat 9 Nov 08:19

It's really just to take talk away from the the fact all Tories are racist scum and generally bad for society.

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 Re: Labour and anti-Semitism
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sat 9 Nov 08:24

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49064771
Those disciplinary stats are just from the first six months of this year.

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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 Re: Labour and anti-Semitism
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sat 9 Nov 08:25

Trying too hard now Rasta. Need to be more subtle.

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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 Re: Labour and anti-Semitism
Topic Originator: Mario  
Date:   Sat 9 Nov 10:35

The Shylock chap is pleading innocence..didn’t know the character was Jewish.
His name is Bull btw!
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 Re: Labour and anti-Semitism
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Sat 9 Nov 11:19

He was blaming his ignorance of Shylock's ethnicity on a poor education.
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 Re: Labour and anti-Semitism
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Sat 9 Nov 13:17

Quote:

The One Who Knocks, Sat 9 Nov 08:24

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49064771
Those disciplinary stats are just from the first six months of this year.


Eight isn't a lot really, is it?

Labour has half a million members so that's a tiny proportion - possibly even fewer than if you picked half a million random people. Depending on how prevalent anti-Semitism is on general UK society, maybe your figures actually show that Labour is less antiemetic than average.

And you said that the issue was one with newer members of the party earlier; I'd be interested to see where you got that? My understanding is that what anti-Semitism there is in the labour party has been there for decades and is more associated with folk like Ken Livingston. But that wouldn't point the finger directly at Jeremy Corbyn.

As an aside, surely just a coincidence but the week before this all kicked off, Corbyn announced that a Labour government would officially recognise the state of Palestine. But obviously that couldn't possibly have any bearing on this.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Labour and anti-Semitism
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sat 9 Nov 13:31

Yes eight member were expelled and scores were reprimanded and warned over their conduct.
Maybe you are right. Perhaps it is all just a big conspiracy. Those Jews do secretly control everything don't they?

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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 Re: Labour and anti-Semitism
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Sat 9 Nov 14:53

Those Jews do secretly control everything don't they?

That's exactly the sort of dismissive response faced so often by folk who are concerned by Israel's treatment of a section of the people living in the territories which they are occupying.

Why is it that press bias in this case is so often dismissed as "conspiracy" in this particular case? It's almost as if folk are using the tropes of anti-Semitism in an effort to tar others as anti-Semitic.

You provided evidence that the Labour Party is pro-actively seeking to challenge anti-semetism when it occurs in Labour. That's not the claim that you made though

You claimed that " in recent years a good number of anti Semitic bigots have signed up to be Labour members"

There are three main claims being made there:

1. Labour has anti-Semitic bigots as members

2. There are lots of them

3. These are new members

I will concede point 1. There were at least eight actual "anti-Semitic bigots" out of half a million members. There are probably even a few more - people often suck and finding sucky people in such a large group is a piece of cake.

However, if any actual "anti-Semitic bigots" were part of the complaints and not expelled then you can rest assured that you would know. Boy would you know, Not a conspiracy remember, just bias. So I can't accept point 2 at all. How many of these complaints were valid and how many were trolling?

You have provided nothing that remotely approached backing up point 3 - which I can only assume was intended as a bizarre attempt to signify that Jeremy Corbyn's leadership of the party was the trigger for all things anti-Semitic in Labour.

Labour does have an historical issue with anti-Semitic ideas being half tolerated in the darker corners of branch meetings. This is a bit of blowback from its historically strong support for the Palestinian cause, and the questionable people who will inevitably be involved in such a long and bitter struggle.

But to tar Jeremy Corbyn with that brush is wrong. The only evidence that I have ever seen presented that that he, personally, is an anti-semite was that he once liked a facebook post defining a dodgy mural. For which he later apologised (and not a mealy-mouthed "sorry if you were offended" apology either, a proper apology- he was clearly mortified by his mastake rather than for being caught)

I've seen a few really bizarre attempts to brand him an anti-Semite though-including once when he was accused of anti-Semitism for celebrating a Jewish holiday with his Jewish friends. They were the "wrong sort" of Jews though, because they were left wing and critical of Israeli policy in the occupied Palestinian territory.

Your claim that the hoards of anti-Semites started joining recently is definitely up there too, it's a proper doozy.

As for your use of anti-Semitic tropes in an effort to undermine the right of those who oppose you to even present their argument: I hope that you realise that you are treading on thin ice there? You'd be all over the papers if you were a Momentum supporter saying those things. Not a conspiracy - just bias.




"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"

Post Edited (Sat 09 Nov 15:03)
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 Re: Labour and anti-Semitism
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sat 9 Nov 15:16

It wasn't me who brought up the tropes, perhaps you can explain further what you meant by. 'As an aside, surely just a coincidence but the week before this all kicked off, Corbyn announced that a Labour government would officially recognise the state of Palestine. But obviously that couldn't possibly have any bearing on this.'

'Your claim that the hoards of anti-Semites started joining recently is definitely up there too, it's a proper doozy.'
I never used the word hoards.

I actually don't believe that Jeremy Corbyn is an anti semite and I haven't given indication to suggest he is. By the way that mural wasn't dodgy it was a downright disgusting piece of bigoted propaganda that wouldn't have looked out of place in the 1930s Germany.

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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 Re: Labour and anti-Semitism
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Sat 9 Nov 16:00

It wasn't me who brought up the tropes

I don't care who started it, I care who used it in an attempt to undermine my right to disagree with them.

'Your claim that the hoards of anti-Semites started joining recently is definitely up there too, it's a proper doozy.'
I never used the word hoards.


You said " a good number" - that's a mealy-mouthed way of evoking "hoards." Unless, by "a good number", you meant "eight"? Because those two are fundamentally different concepts.

Put it this way - "a good number" is a damn sight closer to "hoards" than it is to "eight" in this case....

Quite a chunk of your response to me in this thread has consisted of mealy-mouthed subtext though to be honest: you seem to be trying to create images that are wholly misleading.

You also saying wholly misleading things out loud too to be fair, to you're not being wholly insidious.

perhaps you can explain further what you meant by. 'As an aside, surely just a coincidence but the week before this all kicked off, Corbyn announced that a Labour government would officially recognise the state of Palestine. But obviously that couldn't possibly have any bearing on this.'

Sure.

I mean exactly what I said - a few weeks before the Labour Party was the focus of concerted press interest in its alleged good number of anti-Semitic members Jeremy Corbyn announced that a future Labour government would officially recognise the State of Palestine as a full member state of the UN. He also has been clear that he supports a genuine two-state solution to the situation and has been a vocal critic of Israeli government policy.

Israel, like most countries, seeks to influence the politics of other nations to its advantage. south Africa had great success with the UK in the early 1980s using this. Foreign Offices the world over exist for this reason. Embassies exist for a purpose.

Labour has traditionally tended to the side of the Palestinians in this conflict and so did the UK - at least in part because Zionist terrorists in the Palestine Mandate bombed us worse than the IRA did. Many individuals who went on to hold high political office in Israel, which probably didn't sit well with the UK government.

So, I was saying, in effect, that Israeli government pressure is very likely to be playing a part in influencing things when they certainly have a massive stake in stopping JC from becoming PM and furthering the cause of Palestinian self-determination. Again, not a conspiracy in that way. Just Statecraft.

I agree with your description of the mural. JC didn't help himself there and should be ashamed of himself. I'd be mortified if it was me and I'm not in his position. But I'd sooner look at patterns of behaviour and I'm glad we also agree that he probably isn't anti-Semitic.

So are you going to concede that that your statement "in recent years a good number of anti Semitic bigots have signed up to be Labour members" is largely false and misleading?


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Labour and anti-Semitism
Topic Originator: Andrew283  
Date:   Sat 9 Nov 16:52

Usual political BS to try and discredit Labour. Disgust at the actions of Israel =/= Antisemitism. I also sometimes feel we are living in post war America with the fear of Communism crap. Corbyn isn't even close to being a communist ffs.
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 Re: Labour and anti-Semitism
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sat 9 Nov 17:40

I'll concede that if you concede that the number of Labour members, be it recent or long time members of the party, that have been censured for anti semitic conduct in the first six months of this year is a lot higher than eight. As shown in that link that I posted.

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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 Re: Labour and anti-Semitism
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Sat 9 Nov 19:22

Divide and conquer and this forum exemplify's the meaning

A strategy for achieving political or military control.
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 Re: Labour and anti-Semitism
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Sat 9 Nov 19:38

On one occasion, a Conservative councillor responded to a tweet in March, writing: "Islam and slavery are partners in crime."
In June, during a BBC debate as part of the Tory leadership contest, candidate Sajid Javid, now the chancellor, asked other candidates to agree to open up the Conservatives to an external investigation into Islamophobia within its ranks.
Mr Johnson nodded in response.

On Tuesday, cabinet minister Michael Gove told the Today programme the party would "absolutely" hold an independent inquiry into Islamophobia before the end of the year.
But in an interview with BBC Radio Nottingham on Friday, the prime minister said the party would investigate "prejudice of all kinds".
Baroness Warsi tweeted: "Today #BorisJohnson has confirmed that there will NOT be an inquiry into #Islamophobia. Yes disappointing. Yes predictable."

Is this the Tory anti-Semitism equivalent and if so why no BBC exposure and lies ?

We are forever shaped by the Children we once were


Post Edited (Sat 09 Nov 19:53)
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 Re: Labour and anti-Semitism
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Sat 9 Nov 20:45

Your new position is very different from your statement (you know the one) that brought me into this conversation TOWK. What were you trying to achieve with that? Did you know it to be false when you made it or did you panic when you were called out on it and realised you'd made a mistake?

I'll concede that if you concede that the number of Labour members, be it recent or long time members of the party, that have been censured for anti semitic conduct in the first six months of this year is a lot higher than eight. As shown in that link that I posted.

As long as we're talking "members censured" and not members who were found to be "anti-Semitic bigots" (your words) - because that latter number was eight, as your link states.

That's eight max btw since there's a (slim) chance that not all eight were actual "anti-Semitic bigots" -perhaps one or two were merely highly misguided idiots?

Anyway, "members censured" is a major climbdown on your part, although very far short of an apology for having been so grossly misleading in your attempts to perpetuate a tabloid myth.




"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"

Post Edited (Sat 09 Nov 21:03)
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 Re: Labour and anti-Semitism
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sat 9 Nov 21:41

"Between January and June 2019, Labour received 625 complaints about members relating to anti-Semitism, and a further 658 complaints about people who weren't in the party.

After six NEC meetings in the same period, the committee referred 97 members to the NCC over their cases, handed out 41 official warnings and a further 49 "reminders of conduct".

And over those six months, the NCC expelled eight people, gave out three extended suspensions, and issued four warnings."

Yes perhaps the 41 who were given official warnings were just misguided idiots. Same as the 49 who were given 'reminders of conduct' I suppose. Yes it's always best to remind members not to use bigoted language. Some though must have really crossed the line because 3 were given extended suspensions and finally we get to the 8 that you are obsessing about who were kicked out for good. And that was just in the first six months of the year. I have struggled to find the figures for 2018 or earlier. Maybe they only started keeping records when people started making a fuss about it.

Anyway here is what the founder of Momentum had to say about it earlier this year.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/25/labour-has-widespread-problem-with-antisemitism-momentum-founder-jon-lansman

Seems to believe that with the party tripling in size that perhaps they have a few hundred hardcore anti semities.
A few hundred to me is a good number. Unless Jon Lansman is also spreading tabloid myths?

I'll give the Labour Party their due as belatedly they appear to be getting their house in order and getting to grips with the issue.
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 Re: Labour and anti-Semitism
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Sat 9 Nov 23:16

Are you suggesting that those 49 were "anti-Semitic bigots"?

Is a few hundred out of half a million really "a good number"?

200 as a percentage of half a million is 0.04%:. If only 0.04% of Pars fans were bigots we'd have, ironically enough, about eight in our total support of 20,000 yet we probably have at least eight bigots inside EEP every home game.

So not really even worth highlighting except to say that Labour appears to be bucking the trend by having far fewer "anti-Semitic bigots" than one would expect to find in an average sample of the UK population. And it's night and day compared to the average football crowd.

And that's only if there really are a few hundred in amongst the half million members.

The evidence you have given suggests that we can show reason to believe that eight Labour Party members might have been "anti-Semitic bigots" whilst a few hundred (around 0.04%) may have seriously questionable views which verge on bigotry, such that their party has seen fit to censure them but not expel them.

I'm not obsessed with the eight potential bigots by the way - these are just the eight we agree are most likely actual "anti-Semitic bigots".

The rest (somewhere between 49 and 200) are pretty hypothetical and probably lie on a spectrum from a bit misguided to actual bigots. We can't just assume that they are all bigots though - just because they got a row (or many rows) for being inappropriate. I'm confident that they would be expelled from the party if it crossed over into "anti-Semitic bigot"ry and that we would soon find out if any bigots were spared expulsion.

a further 658 complaints about people who weren't in the party.

Can I just ask you to think about that for a minute.

Are you saying that the Labour Party records anti-Semitic complaints made against non-members? That's pretty diligent of them! To whom did these complaints relate? Random folk who turned up at meetings and misbehaved? I don't think I understand the relevance in this discussion.

As for the other complaints (the ones against Labour Party members), it seems like less than a hundred individuals (97 to be exact) were found to have complaints worthy of "charges" (i.e. referral for investigation by the NEC.)

That's 0.02% of members.

Again I would suggest that whilst I would be far happier if that number were zero, I don't think we can complain about 0.02%.

That would be four Pars fan bigots, and I could live with that. I could name four off the top of my head and be nowhere near finished.




"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"

Post Edited (Sat 09 Nov 23:22)
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 Re: Labour and anti-Semitism
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sun 10 Nov 00:37

Worth remembering that is just one six month spell. I have gave it my best shot but I can't find any figures for the number of members disciplined for anti semitism before 2019.

Here's a quote from Jeremy Corbyn;

"Hatred towards Jewish people is rising in many parts of the world.

"Our party is not immune from that poison - and we must drive it out from our movement.

"While other political parties and some of the media exaggerate and distort the scale of the problem in our party, we must face up to the unsettling truth that a small number of Labour members hold antisemitic views and a larger number don't recognise antisemitic stereotypes and conspiracy theories."

So he thinks a small number are actual dyed in the wool anti semites. I think, as you point out Wotsit, the stats give an indication of that. However when he says "larger number don't recognise antisemitic stereotypes and conspiracy theories." I'm not quite sure what he is saying.
Maybe these people are that group you referred to as misguided idiots earlier but as far as I'm concerned just because they have an ignorance of the intention behind these stereotypes and conspiracies doesn't get them a free pass.

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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 Re: Labour and anti-Semitism
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Sun 10 Nov 04:46

So have we gone from your initial statement which suggested that JC had inspired more bigots to join to an acceptance that Labour has a problem with anti-Semitism, but it is no worse than the one which exists in general society?

By the way, I'd suggest that a lot of old school Labour blokes have a bigger problem with alcoholism, homophobia and misogyny than they do with anti-Semitism: those are more in keeping with British Working Class values....


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"


Post Edited (Sun 10 Nov 05:11)
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 Re: Labour and anti-Semitism
Topic Originator: Rastapari  
Date:   Sun 10 Nov 08:30

What about the Conservatives and Islamophobia?
Or Tories and being a bit rapey?
The debates that don't happen when you have the media on your side...

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 Re: Labour and anti-Semitism
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sun 10 Nov 08:56

No Wotsit I'll stand by my assertion that since Jeremy Corbyn became leader more anti semites have joined the Labour Party than if a random number of the population had been assigned membership.
Oh yes undoubtedly misogyny and homophobia is far more widespread than anti semitism is. For soke reason anti semitism seems to fester more prominently among those on the far left or right.

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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 Re: Labour and anti-Semitism
Topic Originator: Andrew283  
Date:   Sun 10 Nov 11:37

Because the Jewish lobbies will use any comments about the state of Israel and claim them to be antisemitic. They're committing a gradual genocide. The whole thing is mad and we're getting the American levels of crazy with how much influence they have on our politics
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 Re: Labour and anti-Semitism
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Sun 10 Nov 12:35

TOWK, you have offered absolutely no evidence to suggest that anti-semitsm has gotten more prevalent under JCs leadership.

In fact you have admitted that you are unable to provide fugures from before he took over, so I can't for the life of me figure out where you got hold of this notion.

What issues the Labour Party has wth antsemitism exsted long before JC took over the party and formulated a policy which is much less friendly towards Israel.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Labour and anti-Semitism
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sun 10 Nov 12:58

Indeed Wotsit the only evidence can be anecdotal from those on the receiving end.

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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 Re: Labour and anti-Semitism
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Sun 10 Nov 13:16

TOWK - An Israeli government official has been recorded saying he is working to "bring down" MPs who are unsympathetic to Israel. He referred to a large Israeli government budget for this endeavour.

Not just Labour MPs either - Alan Duncan was mentioned. Because Alan Duncan openly supports an independent and secure Palestinian state.

The same recording has the Israel official say that BJ is an idiot but he's solid on Israel.

So, in among all that, you are willing to trust hearsay?

I have to say that that does explain a lot...


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Labour and anti-Semitism
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sun 10 Nov 13:43

'I have to say that that does explain a lot...'
And with that jibe I'm out.

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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 Re: Labour and anti-Semitism
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Sun 10 Nov 13:51

I feel that I have provided many examples to back up that "jibe" throughout this thread.

You have repeatedly used innuendo and hearsay as the basis for your, mostly false, assertions in this thread and I feel that I have shown that enough to warrant my conclusion.

I get that you don't like it - it doesn't paint you in very good light.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Labour and anti-Semitism
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sun 10 Nov 14:27

I can only assume you didn't read any of the links I posted but here is some more.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/17/antisemitism-labour-party-jeremy-corbyn-margaret-hodge

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-10-16/louise-ellman-quits-as-labour-mp-saying-jeremy-corbyn-is-not-fit-to-serve/

Now why would those two long serving members and mp's, who happen to Jewish, claim that under Corbyn anti semitism has gotten worse?
I get it, you don't like Labour being criticised for the anti semitic behaviour of some of its members.
By the way you claimed I have used hearsay and innuendo to forward false assertions. Don't know why you used the plural as I only made one assertion and that is that under Jeremy Corbyn the Labour Party now has a good number more anti semites than before. I think I have proven that.



And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed

Post Edited (Sun 10 Nov 14:32)
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 Re: Labour and anti-Semitism
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Sun 10 Nov 14:45

There is no doubt that Labour is criticised for being anti-Semitic.

I'm trying to determine whether or not that criticism is valid.

I'm also criticising you for blindly accepting it as valid despite the statistic evidence you have presented appearing to suggest the opposite.

Don't know why you used the plural as the only made one assertion

I made a whole post yesterday to break down your assertion into three main claims:

You claimed that " in recent years a good number of anti Semitic bigots have signed up to be Labour members"

There are three main claims being made there:

1. Labour has anti-Semitic bigots as members

2. There are lots of them

3. These are new members


I then showed you that two of them are false.

. I think I have proven that.

Why on earth would you think that?

You have proven that eight party members were expelled for anti-Semitism. You have produced nothing but hearsay and innuendo to back up your other claims. Iincluding invoking anti-Semitic tropes to block off potential criticism, remember when you did that? Also, thanks for stopping doing it.

You even tried to pass off the number of complaints made against non-members as evidence for one of your three main assertions.

You even said that you can't find figures from before JC was leader.

All that you have proven is that there might be eight fewer anti-Semites in the Labour Party now than there were six months ago. That's the opposite of what you claimed! Which, in case you've forgotten, was:

" in recent years a good number of anti Semitic bigots have signed up to be Labour members"


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Labour and anti-Semitism
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sun 10 Nov 15:15

I didn't invoke anti semitic tropes. It was your good self that did that when you implied, through innuendo if you will, that the anti semitic storm enveloping Labour was in someway connected to the parties stance on Israel. Again I'll ask you to explain that? Do you think the complaints are fabricated? If so provide evidence of that please.
I'll also ask you once more to comment as to why two prominent Jewish Labour mp's have stated that under Corbyn anti semitism is the party has risen? Do you think they are lying about the increased levels of abuse they have received in recent years from within the party? Cause and effect can always be difficult to prove but these Jewish individuals being racially abused after a huge increase in labour party membership is no coincidence as far as I am concerned.
What with this 8 number?! Far far more than 8 were disciplined in the first six months of this year alone for anti semitic behaviour. The fact that only 8 of that number were ultimately expelled for such behaviour is quite possibly part of the problem that Hodges and Ellman are alluding to.

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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 Re: Labour and anti-Semitism
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Sun 10 Nov 15:25

To quote myself from yesterday (again):

perhaps you can explain further what you meant by. 'As an aside, surely just a coincidence but the week before this all kicked off, Corbyn announced that a Labour government would officially recognise the state of Palestine. But obviously that couldn't possibly have any bearing on this.'

Sure.

I mean exactly what I said - a few weeks before the Labour Party was the focus of concerted press interest in its alleged good number of anti-Semitic members Jeremy Corbyn announced that a future Labour government would officially recognise the State of Palestine as a full member state of the UN. He also has been clear that he supports a genuine two-state solution to the situation and has been a vocal critic of Israeli government policy.

Israel, like most countries, seeks to influence the politics of other nations to its advantage. south Africa had great success with the UK in the early 1980s using this. Foreign Offices the world over exist for this reason. Embassies exist for a purpose.

Labour has traditionally tended to the side of the Palestinians in this conflict and so did the UK - at least in part because Zionist terrorists in the Palestine Mandate bombed us worse than the IRA did. Many individuals who went on to hold high political office in Israel, which probably didn't sit well with the UK government.

So, I was saying, in effect, that Israeli government pressure is very likely to be playing a part in influencing things when they certainly have a massive stake in stopping JC from becoming PM and furthering the cause of Palestinian self-determination. Again, not a conspiracy in that way. Just Statecraft.

I agree with your description of the mural. JC didn't help himself there and should be ashamed of himself. I'd be mortified if it was me and I'm not in his position. But I'd sooner look at patterns of behaviour and I'm glad we also agree that he probably isn't anti-Semitic.

So are you going to concede that that your statement "in recent years a good number of anti Semitic bigots have signed up to be Labour members" is largely false and misleading?


I then linked an article with an Israeli Embassy official openly saying that he had interfered in UK politics.

That's not any sort of anti-Semitic trope. Why did you think that it was?

I don't have to prove whether or not the complaints are valid, I'm not the one trying to use them to prove that Labour has had a recent influx of bigots.

Although I did manage to point out that half of them were made against people who weren't even members of the Labour Party. You still haven't addressed that. Or anything really.




"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"

Post Edited (Sun 10 Nov 15:28)
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 Re: Labour and anti-Semitism
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sun 10 Nov 15:55

Just you saying that I haven't addressed them doest make it so. I'm not addressing the complaints made against non Labour members as nobody should expect any party to be liable for the actions of non members. I do expect them to do something about the hundreds of complaints made against party members. They did do something, they disciplined scores of them but only expelled eight of them.
Now you have dodged this one twice now so how about having a crack at it this time. Why do you think that Hodges and Ellman are saying that the levels of anti semitism within the Labour Party have risen since Corbyn became leader?

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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 Re: Labour and anti-Semitism
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sun 10 Nov 15:55

Actually don't bother replying. Just going around in circles and I'm missing the football.

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They just might as well be closed
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 Re: Labour and anti-Semitism
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Sun 10 Nov 16:47

I don't know why they have said that when it is clearly not the case from the evidence that you provided. The fact that is hearsay and innuendo makes it difficult to respond. If they presented any actual events fence then I would respond.

I also want to remind you that you said

"a good many anti-Semitic bigots have joined Labour in recent years"

But evidenced:

"0.02% of Labour members were disciplined for breaking strict party rules governing anti-Semitic behaviour but we don't know when they joined"

Not the same, are they?


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Labour and anti-Semitism
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Sun 10 Nov 16:54

And we're not going round in circles. I'm just standing still and holding my ground.

We can move on when you accept that the phrase "a good number of anti-Semitic bigots have signed up to be Labour members in recent years" is not something that you can back up with anything other than innuendo and hearsay based on cheap tabloid propoganda.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Labour and anti-Semitism
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sun 10 Nov 17:13

You're right I can't back it up with anything other that the anecdotal evidence of those on the receiving end of the anti semitic abuse which they say has increased. Since no figures exist for years prior to 2019 I can't prove it conclusively so I'll withdraw my comment.

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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 Re: Labour and anti-Semitism
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Mon 11 Nov 16:01

Are you saying that the complaints were not properly dealt with by the NEC?


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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