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 FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Wed 20 Nov 13:20

I know that the biggest problem with it is that it is clearly hugely unethical and possibly illegal, but does anybody else have a problem with how Orwellian it was?

The way in which it tried to restate the obvious as it's opposite was pretty creepy imo.

Clearly the work of Cummings and they seem to be running this election campaign with all the regard for ethics and integrity that they did the Leave one.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: Rastapari  
Date:   Wed 20 Nov 14:24

Democracy...

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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: Andrew283  
Date:   Wed 20 Nov 15:21

Dirty scumbags
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Wed 20 Nov 18:39

This bunch under Dominic really are the lowest of the low they will stop at nothing to get a majority government to push brexit through They have lied and cheated since day one and have the King of liars as PM
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: Captain Desmond Fancey  
Date:   Wed 20 Nov 18:56

I only pop in here now and again, purely to read Andrew's insightful political analysis.

Talk about a storm in a teacup.
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Wed 20 Nov 19:07

That makes sense - you certainly don't add anything of substance.
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: Andrew283  
Date:   Wed 20 Nov 20:38

Quote:

Captain Desmond Fancey, Wed 20 Nov 18:56

I only pop in here now and again, purely to read Andrew's insightful political analysis.

Talk about a storm in a teacup.


OK Boomer
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: da_no_1  
Date:   Thu 21 Nov 00:37

Quote:

Andrew283, Wed 20 Nov 20:38

Quote:

Captain Desmond Fancey, Wed 20 Nov 18:56

I only pop in here now and again, purely to read Andrew's insightful political analysis.

Talk about a storm in a teacup.


OK Boomer


FFS what's next.......WASSSUPPP?

"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Thu 21 Nov 06:47

CDF only pops in now and again as he spends the rest of his time on twitter trolling anyone who dares disagree with his point of view.
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: Captain Desmond Fancey  
Date:   Thu 21 Nov 09:18

Sorry to disappoint you Jake, but I don't actually use Twitter any longer.

Maybe I've just got more things to do with my time than use some two bit football forum, masquerading as Socialist Worker HQ.
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Thu 21 Nov 09:34

One thing I've noticed about social media is that there is no shortage of people who make contributions to forums they claim to disregard. Have they no self-awareness?
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Thu 21 Nov 14:22

They have now also set up a fake site pretending to be the Labour manifesto and are paying google for it to be top result when searched for.
The Tories really are corrupt to the core.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tory-fake-labour-manifesto-website-fact-check-general-election-a9212076.html
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Thu 21 Nov 18:41

I hope Cummings gets his operation in the prison hospital.
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Thu 21 Nov 18:49

A weasel of a man

I'm sure Mr. big will sort his piles
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Thu 21 Nov 19:25

Quote:

Captain Desmond Fancey, Thu 21 Nov 09:18

Sorry to disappoint you Jake, but I don't actually use Twitter any longer.

Maybe I've just got more things to do with my time than use some two bit football forum, masquerading as Socialist Worker HQ.


Did you get banned for the disgraceful messages you were sending to MPs, MSPs and members of the public?
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Thu 21 Nov 20:06

Captain nice to see you back .... was worried that you had fallen into a ditch looking for Boris

Answer me a simple question

Who are you voting for this time as by your own admission you sway between the Tory Party and the Brexit party

You seem to favour whoever is furthest to the right and who will do the most harm to the worker the disabled the homeless the NHS the police the fire service the pensioner

Is it Boris with the hi viz jacket pretending to mop a floor in Doncaster or Nigel with his worn smooth cords and burberry cap setting off damp squibs

Or how about a pact between the two ?..... Christ is there a tranquilliser strong enough to keep you sedated ?

Apart from that .... hope you are well
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: Captain Desmond Fancey  
Date:   Thu 21 Nov 21:22

I'll be voting Conservative, knowing full well they don't stand a chance here, but I'll do my bit anyway. And, I'll do it with a totally clear conscience too ;)
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Thu 21 Nov 22:03

Do all Tory voters spend their days sending abusive messages to women in Twitter?
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Thu 21 Nov 22:36

And, I'll do it with a totally clear conscience too ;)

Clear, or missing?
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Thu 21 Nov 23:24

Good on you Captain you have nailed yer vote to the mast I am voting Labour... a labour man all my life and I honestly think they're manifesto is an election winner for the people

But they are up against a huge multi media false propaganda campaign

Dominics Russian pals are allegedly piling millions into the Tory party coffers to ensure they de-stabalise the UK and Boris is just saying and doing as he is told albeit not very well He should be made to stand in a corner with a dunces hat on

The multi millionaires are donating huge sums as they want to keep the tax free privilege they have enjoyed under the Tory's

But all good things as they say... If anyone in their right mind after what they have seen, read, heard, in the last few days still vote for the Tory's then hell mend them
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: Captain Desmond Fancey  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 05:55

It's not a manifesto the late, great, John Smith would ever have put his name to.

Think they need to return to something more akin to his values before they ever win over the public again to be honest. Going down the Michael Foot route, and then some, will do them no favours at all.
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 07:22

Isn't it ironic that, if everyone voted in their own, narrow self-interests, the Tories would never get in?

There are far more people representing the poorer underclasses, who would benefit from the policies pursued by a left of centre government than there are comfortably well off, who will be even better off under a continuing Conservative government.

Sadly, many voters are duped by duplicitous politicians, playing on their instinctive fears involving foreigners and immigration, into thinking that the future will be better if they vote Tory. Is it just me, or does anyone else get the impression that the bigger the lies are and the more brazenly they are fed to a gullible electorate, the more readily they appear to be swallowed?

Labour's manifesto is certainly ambitious and arguably expensive, but the annual sums involved are less than Germany's and on a par with the European average. Of course the Tories would rather throw the savings they've made from years of austerity at tax cuts and we all know who will benefit most from those......



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: Captain Desmond Fancey  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 08:18

Using phrases like "gullible electorate" do your arguments no favours at all GG. It sounds more than a little patronising.

Some of the "promises" in that manifesto would make even the leaders of Venezuela baulk.
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 08:49

The problem GG is that nobody ever thinks that they are being gullible one. It's always the other side that are misguided.

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 08:52

Quote:

Captain Desmond Fancey, Fri 22 Nov 08:18

Using phrases like "gullible electorate" do your arguments no favours at all GG. It sounds more than a little patronising.

Some of the "promises" in that manifesto would make even the leaders of Venezuela baulk.


How would you describe those voters who believe all the downright lies a variety of politicians spout with straight faces on an almost daily basis, CDF? Perhaps you think every voter is extremely clued up? That's a favourite trick of many politicians, coming out with stuff like "Our voters are far too intelligent to be taken in by....." Flattery gets you everywhere.

I'm not suggesting for a minute that Labour Government would be able to deliver all the "promises" in its manifesto, but at least they are geared towards helping the less well off in our society. That's hardly a charge you could lay at the door of the Tory party, is it? I see that all the Conservatives can say about it is that it would cost a fortune to implement, so at least they don't have the brass neck to say that it's not a sound aspirational philosophy.



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 08:56

Quote:

Captain Desmond Fancey, Fri 22 Nov 08:18

Some of the "promises" in that manifesto would make even the leaders of Venezuela baulk.


No they wouldn't. What a mad thing to say.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 08:56

You've referred to people as far worse than "gullible" on Twitter, CDF. People in glass houses and all that...
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 09:08

In the run up to the Brexit referendum, many voters believed Johnson and Farage when they said that voting Leave would :-

1. Free up £350 million a week for the NHS.

2. Allow the Government to control immigration.

3. Prevent thousands of terrorists entering the UK, through Turkey, whose admission into the EU was "imminent."

I don't believe it's unfair, patronising or insulting to label any voter who was taken in by these "declarations" as gullible.



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: Captain Desmond Fancey  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 09:10

Not suggesting that everyone is as clued up as a learned gentleman stuff as yourself GG but to refer to millions of people as gullible is more than a little unfair don't you think ?

Much like we're continually told we don't understand what Brexit is and what we were voting for.

Seems these days if you don't agree with the left wing you're basically thick.

Under Labour's proposals nobody will be better off. Investment in this country would simply vanish, inflation would go through the roof and we all know what way taxes will head. It would literally send us into the abyss.
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 09:22

I'll have to go with GG on this one Captain

It worries me that nearly everyone I have spoken to regarding Brexit answer:-

"Don't really know enough about it to be honest"
Or "I can't be bothered with it, sick of hearing about it"

Now even more worrying since the GE was announced is that most people do not know who to vote for (They are confused ...... divide and conquer)

They will likely put their cross against green or lib dems or maybe even your Brexit party which can only help the Tory's get back in

Then you will see what an abyss is really like
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: Bandy  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 09:44

https://www.thetorymanifesto.com

In fairness the Tories have released a clear, honest, manifesto that they are certain to deliver on. Lots of vote winners for their target audience in there.
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: Captain Desmond Fancey  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 09:49

Get's my vote ;)

Come on Buspasspar - I'm guessing by your name you're a bit older than me (no offence intended) - so you'll remember properly the last time a far left Labour government was in power.

Compare and contrast the UK to then, and I think even the most hardened socialist will agree that things are infinitely better now.


The good old days
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 09:56

If the Tories were judged on their record, as incumbent governments usually are, they would be out the door. NHS, inequality, immigration, national debt, public services generally, Windrush scandal, universal credit, etc have all shown how incompetent and uncaring they are. That's why they just want the election to be about Brexit (ironically another of their failures) and, sadly, a lot of people tap into this.
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 09:57

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/if-people-voted-for-policies-the-green-party-would-win-the-next-election-9887199.html

This is obviously out of date so I'm not using it as any pointer to the current election but it does show an interesting discrepancy between the popularity of a party's policies and their performance at the actual elections.

Without wanting to use any labels it would imply that there are significant factors in deciding who to vote for outside of simply what a party's policies are.

I'll try and find more recent examples as I'm sure there had been more and the Greens and Labour always polled well in the blind polling on policies but the Conservatives have obviously won the last couple of elections.
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 11:03

Quote:

Captain Desmond Fancey, Fri 22 Nov 09:49

Get's my vote ;)

Come on Buspasspar - I'm guessing by your name you're a bit older than me (no offence intended) - so you'll remember properly the last time a far left Labour government was in power.

Compare and contrast the UK to then, and I think even the most hardened socialist will agree that things are infinitely better now.


Free higher education, rising incomes, a family could afford to live comfortably on two salaries, an NHS that worked, suitible housing for all.

That sort of thing?


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 11:08

Quote :-
Topic Originator: Captain Desmond Fancey
Date: Fri 22 Nov 09:49

Come on Buspasspar - I'm guessing by your name you're a bit older than me (no offence intended) - so you'll remember properly the last time a far left Labour government was in power.

Compare and contrast the UK to then, and I think even the most hardened socialist will agree that things are infinitely better now.

Canny argue with that Captain ..... the food banks are far better now than the last time a far left Labour government was in power

Did you put the Picture of Miss Roberts up just to boil ma blood ;-)

We are forever shaped by the Children we once were


Post Edited (Fri 22 Nov 11:17)
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 11:21

Quote:

Captain Desmond Fancey, Fri 22 Nov 09:10

Not suggesting that everyone is as clued up as a learned gentleman stuff as yourself GG but to refer to millions of people as gullible is more than a little unfair don't you think ?


I'm pretty certain I said many people were taken in by the Leave campaign but I did not quantify that, the reference to "millions of people" has been made by you and you alone, Captain.

It was interesting that in response to my original post, you did not dispute that for most voters it would make more sense to vote for a socialist party.

Oh and d'you not think that paying more in taxes would be a worthwhile sacrifice in return for better public services?



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: Captain Desmond Fancey  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 11:33

"you did not dispute that for most voters it would make more sense to vote for a socialist party. "

I absolutely categorically dispute it. Particularly in the case of Corbyn's brand of socialism. As alluded to earlier, the country voted for a Socialist government and as one of the more senior members on here you'll also remember how that turned out...



Give the Unions back the power they had back then, and there'll be no such thing as better public services either as the whole ruddy nation will be back out on strike !
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 11:37

I'm asking this yet again as nobody has ever given me an answer but which ones of Corbyn's policies are going to lead to rack and ruin and why?
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 11:38

I don't remember living under a far-left socialist government. Who was the PM then?
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 12:13

Not much danger of rubbish being dumped in the streets under a Tory government: there would be too many homeless people and foodbanks getting in the way. But that’s progress I suppose.

I saw a good example of that kind of progress on a short visit to Budapest this week. Having shaken off the yoke of communism the capital, which has very impressive architecture from the 19th century, boasts four giant electronic adverts perched high in the central crossroads which read: Huawei; Rolex; China Bank and Coca-Cola. Not very Hungarian it’s true but an impressive display of global finance.

Nearby, in a doorway -which like many did not seem to have seen a coat of paint for many year- an old homeless man lay asleep. That poor sod was probably working in a state steelworks and having to watch Ferenc Puskas play for Honved as a teenager.
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 12:38

A ‘far left Labour Government’ is political nonsense since for the last 100 years the Labour Party has operated as a social democratic party committed to gradualism. To win power it has relied on the votes of blue collar and white collar workers prepared to change the system from within. Nothing Jeremy Corbyn has done as leader changes any of this, despite CDF’s emotional guff about the ‘late, great John Smith.’ Presumably Smith’s ‘greatness’ rests on the fact he was never actually PM so did not threaten the interests of the powerful.

However CDF might have a point regarding a Corbyn government, and it was something I noticed was missing from the otherwise encouraging Labour Party manifesto: there seemed to be no commitment to reforming the banking system, far less a promise to hold a ‘Hillsborough’ type investigation into what really happened in 2008. The banking cartels could quite probably create a run on the pound to undermine a future Labour government and bring about the ‘rack and ruin’ CDF forecast.
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 13:05

Quote:

Captain Desmond Fancey, Fri 22 Nov 11:33

"you did not dispute that for most voters it would make more sense to vote for a socialist party. "

I absolutely categorically dispute it. Particularly in the case of Corbyn's brand of socialism. As alluded to earlier, the country voted for a Socialist government and as one of the more senior members on here you'll also remember how that turned out...



Give the Unions back the power they had back then, and there'll be no such thing as better public services either as the whole ruddy nation will be back out on strike !


What a load of complete and utter guff, CDF. You have to be taking the pith with that. Nobody with more than two brain cells to rub together could possibly seriously subscribe to that propaganda.



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 14:41

Germany has some of the strongest workers representation in Europe and consistently manage to be regarded as the strongest performing nation in Europe.

I wonder how they manage it?
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 15:54

I wonder how they manage it?

Is it by not blaming working people when there's a financial crisis caused by an international oil embargo?

Or, in recent times, maybe it's by not taking resources away from the already poverty stricken to pay back the super rich for their epically criminal mistakes?

Perhaps, I dunno.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 16:04

Can't be right there I'm afraid as we beat them in a war.
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 16:19

Two wars, I think you'll find.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 16:25

Its because we are all bone Idle ..... according to Priti, Dominic, Chris,and Kwasi
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 16:30

Thank goodness we did beat them in that last war as well. For Germany's sake as much as anyone else's. Seldom does an empire's greatest moment come right at the end of it's time.

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 16:43

Quote:

Wotsit, Fri 22 Nov 16:19

Two wars, I think you'll find.


Fair point well made.
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 16:44

Quote:

The One Who Knocks, Fri 22 Nov 16:30

Thank goodness we did beat them in that last war as well. For Germany's sake as much as anyone else's. Seldom does an empire's greatest moment come right at the end of it's time.


True but you'd think that war was still ongoing the way some of our "patriots" talk.

Edited to add: that also means we couldn't possibly do something that Germany does well.

Post Edited (Fri 22 Nov 16:51)
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 17:01

True but you'd think that war was still ongoing the way some of our "patriots" talk.

The thing is that it is still ongoing in many ways - just not in the way they are telling us.

British "patriots" have switched sides in WWII terms and it doesn't matter how many Polish Spitfires they plaster on stuff, some of us aren't falling for it.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 17:23

Altogether now..."Rule Britannia..."
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 17:30

The common perception that Britain (sometimes 'England') beat Germany in two world wars is part of the problem surrounding Brexit. It is simplistic and quite misleading but forms a large part of the UK identity to this day, in popular culture.

As I think Wotsit is suggesting, many of our modern day 'patriots' such as Farage and Rees-Mogg would have bitten Hitler's hand off when he offered a truce: the UK could keep its Empire and allow Germany a free hand in Europe. Churchill, the man they claim to revere, was fortunately made of stronger stuff and realised the UK could not turn its back on Europe.
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 17:51

Aye the late great Winston Churchill sammer perhaps one of the greatest despots in my time a title I think he craved for
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 17:52

Leaving aside my view that Churchill went to war because he thought that Hitler threatened the Empire, I'm more suggesting that Farage and co would have bitten Hitler's hand off for a pact, not a peace.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 17:58

Quote :-
Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Fri 22 Nov 17:52

Leaving aside my view that Churchill went to war because he thought that Hitler threatened the Empire, I'm more suggesting that Farage and co would have bitten Hitler's hand off for a pact, not a peace.

Can see them now Wotsit
Boris with the flying helmet and biggles scarf
Nigel with the lederhosen
Shaking Adolfs hand and proclaiming they have a great new deal :-)
The Captain running behind them dishing out packs of 10 Pasha and egg powder

We are forever shaped by the Children we once were


Post Edited (Fri 22 Nov 18:05)
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 18:00

Be it fascist or communist they were all making pacts with Hitler in the '30s.

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: Captain Desmond Fancey  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 18:01

Churchill didn't "go to war"
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 18:06

Quote :-
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Fri 22 Nov 18:00

Be it fascist or communist they were all making pacts with Hitler in the '30s.


Aye and the Royals towk
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 18:08

Yep they were all at it.

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 18:10

Quote :-
Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Fri 22 Nov 17:52

Leaving aside my view that Churchill went to war because he thought that Hitler threatened the Empire, I'm more suggesting that Farage and co would have bitten Hitler's hand off for a pact, not a peace.

Can see them now Wotsit
Boris with the flying helmet and biggles scarf
Nigel with the lederhosen
Shaking Adolfs hand and proclaiming they have a great new deal :-)
The Captain running behind them dishing out packs of 10 Pasha and egg powder
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 18:23

Churchill didn't "go to war"

You're right.

He pushed.

He was far too posh to "go" - that sounds dangerous.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 18:31

Can see them now Wotsit
Boris with the flying helmet and biggles scarf
Nigel with the lederhosen
Shaking Adolfs hand and proclaiming they have a great new deal :-)


sadly, you don't have to imagine British establishment figures vigorously supporting the Nazis - there were plenty real life examples to pick from in the 1930s.

Thank Christ for the Church of England's (rather hypocritical) view on divorce at the time or we might have had a Nazi sympathising monarch when Hitler invaded Poland, which might have been awkward.




"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 18:32

Oh I think spending six months in the trenches during The First World War making frequent forays into no man's land proved he wasn't too posh for danger.

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 18:41

Oh aye, I forgot about that time he was demoted as First Lord of the Admiralty for planning the massive slaughters at Dardanelles and Gallipoli, so he had to re-enlist as an officer.

For, like, a few months until he was made a Cabinet Minister again.

My mistake.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 18:50

Yes a few months. In the trenches.

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 19:05

Exactly.

As punishment for hubristically sending tens of thousands of his own men to an inevitable and pointless death.

I totally forgot.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 19:16

Quote:

Wotsit, Fri 22 Nov 19:05

Exactly.

As punishment for hubristically sending tens of thousands of his own men to an inevitable and pointless death.

I totally forgot.


Churchill was a despot who just happened to be on the winning side
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 19:17

Yes you must have when you quipped, to the effect, that he was too posh for danger. Plenty of 'posh' people died in both wars.

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 19:17

Quote :-
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Fri 22 Nov 18:32

Oh I think spending six months in the trenches during The First World War making frequent forays into no man's land proved he wasn't too posh for danger.

Towk I think you are confusing Winston with his brother Jack

Winston sitting on his fat cigar smoking brandy drinking erse sacrificed the 51st Highland division to appease the French some of my family many of my friends family and I'm sure many Pars family were either slaughtered that day or captured i have pics of some fine Clacks men who were captured

Churchill did not give a fek for his fellow human beings let alone his fellow forces personnel

We are forever shaped by the Children we once were


Post Edited (Fri 22 Nov 19:26)
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 19:20

Nah Buspass, it was Winston. Wotsit has summed up the facts of it if not the spirit.

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 19:30

TOWK is right Bussy - Winston was sent to the front in disgrace after Gallipoli.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 19:34

Churchill’s inexperience as a chancellor was a major factor in bringing about the Great Depression…
According to heralded economist John Maynard Keynes, who believes it was his decisions that put Britain back onto the gold standard in the 1920s, ultimately causing the largest national economic downturn in the 20th century.

As a politician in the 1930s, his attitudes towards some nations bordered on racist…

As Mahatma Gandhi launched his campaign for peaceful resistance, Churchill, who fought as a young army officer in British India, said he “ought to be lain bound hand and foot at the gates of Delhi, and then trampled on by an enormous elephant with the new Viceroy seated on its back.”
“I hate Indians,” he later stated as the resistance movement strengthened. “They are a beastly people with a beastly religion.”

He didn’t believe Native Americans had been wronged when they were invaded between 1776 and 1887…
Nor the Aborigines of Australia. Speaking to the Palestine Royal Commission in 1937, he wrote: “I do not admit... that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America, or the black people of Australia... by the fact that a stronger race, a higher grade race... has come in and taken its place.”

Churchill’s blunt refusal to supply food to Bengal arguably led to the deaths of 3 million people…
British officials in the Indian region begged the Prime Minister to send aid to the Indian region, which was hit by wide-spread famine in 1943. Churchill said it was their own fault for “breeding like rabbits”. He said the plague was “merrily” culling the population.

 “I do not understand the squeamishness about the use of gas,” he told the House of Commons during an address in the autumn of 1937. “I am strongly in favour of using poisonous gas against uncivilised tribes.”

Not to mention the black and tans the sacrifice of the 51st highland division etc etc

I would spit on the despots grave
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: donj  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 19:37

I believe there might be a few Indian people who might not love him.
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 19:37

Sorry Buspass but you're wrong about Churchill and the 51st

https://www.thenational.scot/news/15357629.the-sacrifice-of-the-51st-highland-division-and-the-other-side-of-dunkirk/

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 19:57

Towk with the greatest respect the article you have just posted not only reinforces my post but actually enhances it

Are you sure you read it all before you posted it ?

During the last war, I had the opportunity of seeing most of the British, Dominion and Indian Divisions,
many American Divisions, and several French and Belgian Divisions,
and I can assure you that, among all these, the 51st unquestionably takes its place alongside the very few which, through their valour and fighting record, stands in a category of their own.”

Field Marshal The Viscount Alanbrooke


http://home.clara.net/clinchy/51st.htm
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 20:00

Churchill’s blunt refusal to supply food to Bengal arguably led to the deaths of 3 million people…

It seems to be a fairly established fact (insomuch as there can be such a thing in history) that the Bengal Famine was man-made with Churchill, as PM, having to carry the historical can for that - just like Stalin, as Soviet leader, should (and does) carry the can for the Holodomor.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 20:04

Buspass;
"What happened between January and June is instructive. There is a misunderstanding that Churchill alone sacrificed the 51st to allow the rest of the BEF to escape, but the fact is that three weeks before Churchill entered 10 Downing Street, the division’s fate was sealed by the order to move its three brigades to reinforce the French divisions much further to the east from where the bulk of the BEF was stationed. The 51st was then placed under the command of the French Third Army as it prepared to defend against Hitler’s Panzers."

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 20:08

OK Towk

The officers and men of the 51st Highland Division were placed under French command after Churchill told his opposite number in Paris, Paul Reynaud, that Britain would "never abandon her ally in her hour of need". At its heart were some of the proudest regiments in Scottish history: the Black Watch, the Seaforth Highlanders and the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders, and their men stood and fought as the French army collapsed around them.
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 20:11

I assume you didn't read the article from The National then Buspass?

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 20:14

Ach Towk what a bloody shame we have dragged so many brave men into the brexit debate and trying to defend Churchill ..... I would like to leave it at that and only hope they did not die in vain for their Country ..... God bless them all

We are forever shaped by the Children we once were


Post Edited (Fri 22 Nov 20:17)
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 20:17

They absolutely didn't die or fight in vain. Their actions enabled hundreds and thousands of British and French troops to escape and continue the fight and eventually defeat the greatest tyranny the world has ever seen.

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 20:21

Aye Towk am away to pour a wee dram noo and will raise it to their memory
Nice to have agreed to disagree .... you take care .... I am sure we will have many more polite discussions
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: Andrew283  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 20:24

Quote:

The One Who Knocks, Fri 22 Nov 20:17

They absolutely didn't die or fight in vain. Their actions enabled hundreds and thousands of British and French troops to escape and continue the fight and eventually defeat the greatest tyranny the world has ever seen.


It could be argued that the British Empire could be considered for top spot in that category too
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 20:27

My money's on Genghis Khan, but we're definitely building the top 5.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: Andrew283  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 20:39

Quote:

Wotsit, Fri 22 Nov 20:27

My money's on Genghis Khan, but we're definitely building the top 5.


Good shout with the Khan. Modern China is up there too
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 20:48

I think Spain and Portugal and their conquistadors need a shout out. Let's not forget about France and their North African colonies. The Algerians in particular had a torrid time.

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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 Re: FactCheckUK
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Fri 22 Nov 20:49

The Spanish Empire, French Empire and Leopold II of Belgium didn't do themselves any favours either.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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