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Topic Originator: desparado
Date: Wed 1 Jul 11:20
In England 49% of Tory voters want independence ...for England.
I wonder why Boris and Farage etc don’t push for this ?
They must be sick of subsidising the Northern natives. Just like they were subsidising the EU.
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Wed 1 Jul 16:09
Good on them. Though I don't want Scotland lumbered with Wales and N.Ireland. Genuinely of the opinion N.Ireland would be better off under ROI. It's not progressed well economically under the UK. It went from being the most prosperous part of Ireland to the least
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Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe
Date: Wed 1 Jul 21:38
Quote:
jake89, Wed 1 Jul 16:09
Good on them. Though I don't want Scotland lumbered with Wales and N.Ireland. Genuinely of the opinion N.Ireland would be better off under ROI. It's not progressed well economically under the UK. It went from being the most prosperous part of Ireland to the least
If England went independent, I don't really see how the other nations could form an alliance in the same form.
Geographically and trade wise would not work so it would be a total break up in that scenario.
Zwei Pints Bier und ein Päckchen Chips bitte
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Wed 1 Jul 22:18
The petition reads as if it was composed by an illiterate.
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Thu 2 Jul 00:26
"Public sector jobs are also unfairly distributed across this union that is not a union, 1 in 5 public sector jobs are in Scotland!!! There are only 1 in 12 people in the UK who are Scottish."
There are around 5.5m public sector jobs in the UK. That's roughly one for every single man, woman and child in Scotland. So 1.1m of those 5.5m are in Scotland? No, it's actually half that figure which is 1 in 10 public sector jobs being in Scotland, which is roughly in line with the rest of the UK.
Why is it higher? Rural populations for a start. Shetland still needs it's bins emptied even though is pretty sparsely populated. Those bin men still need someone to maintain the lorries and to manage the work.
Scotland also kept water in public ownership whereas down south numerous private companies make a profit everyone you have a pee. Literally taking the p...
Want a guess for the area of the UK with the most public sector employees (by a considerable margin)? Yep, it's London. Then it's the South-east and then North West and then it's Scotland. Also worth noting that over a third of public sector jobs in Scotland are part-time.
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Topic Originator: pacifist
Date: Mon 6 Jul 12:30
Scotland gets charged for a lot of the "public servant" jobs in London and elsewhere through the Gers con. However, many of the jobs are located outwith Scotland and the wages they get, the tax raised, and the money spent benefit the community they are based.
If we were independent I would think we would have possibly another 5k jobs that every Independent country needs to run the required departments.
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Topic Originator: pacifist
Date: Mon 6 Jul 21:01
This is the last shake of the dice for the tories. It kinda tells us that Scotland is much more important to Westminster than they will ever admit.
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Mon 6 Jul 23:44
I genuinely don't get why though. England could survive fairly easily without Scotland and Scotland without England. Why does Westminster seem so desperate to cling on?
My only thinking is it would remove the scapegoat. No more "subsidy junkie Scots" to point the finger at. Perhaps people in the North would rise up and question just why so much investment goes to the South. Perhaps it's why they keep pushing the "Northern Powerhouse" nonsense when the reality is that thousands of jobs will go in the North after Brexit.
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Topic Originator: pacifist
Date: Tue 7 Jul 14:41
seriously? The uk debt is enormous. England is not self sufficient in very much. Scotland is awash with natural resources, not just oil. England has to buy in essentials and has a large trade deficit. The one that always annoys is the £300 billion from oil that Thatcher had at her disposal.
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Topic Originator: 1985Par
Date: Tue 7 Jul 14:55
"I genuinely don't get why though. England could survive fairly easily without Scotland and Scotland without England. Why does Westminster seem so desperate to cling on?"
What do you mean by " desperate to cling on?" . 6 years ago they gave us the option to leave if we wanted to. Literally.
We chose to stay.
Westminster doing nothing more than standing by the decision that we, the people of Scotland, made.
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Topic Originator: 1985Par
Date: Tue 7 Jul 15:33
So Cameron et al persuaded us to vote NO.
And Sturgeon, Salmond et al didn't try to persuade us to vote YES???????
So, presumably, had we voted YES, that decision would not have been made on " mistruths and personalities"? It's only when the vote goes against you that the decision isn't based on " data and fact"?
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Topic Originator: londonparsfan
Date: Tue 7 Jul 15:46
Yeah but they had to dangle a few carrots to convince people to stay.
Whether people will be happy with what was promised vs what's been delivered is pretty important for any future vote and the polling is quite consistently polling over 50% at the moment.
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Tue 7 Jul 16:26
The Scottish people were given a vote in the expectation that a healthy 'No' to independence would be the answer. Our colonial masters were growing more uneasy the longer the campaign went on and sent a delegation of senior politicians north of the border where they were harangued by Matt Lygate's son on a bicycle.
One reason the UK has to continue as an entity is its permanent seat on the UN Security Council. If Scotland left the UK, then that privilege would quite rightly be called into question. The capacity of the UK to support every US or Israeli aggressive act could disappear and make something like Blair's foreign war policy impossible.
In line with that is the issue of NATO, an organisation founded to protect Western countries from an Eastern bloc that no longer exists. An independent Scotland would obviously examine its membership of NATO and that has serious consequences for the Atlanticists. NATO exercises in places like the Baltic countries would be compromised without the guarantee of free movement in Scottish waters and airspace.
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Topic Originator: desparado
Date: Tue 7 Jul 20:38
Topic Originator: 1985Par
Date: Tue 7 Jul 14:55
"I genuinely don't get why though. England could survive fairly easily without Scotland and Scotland without England. Why does Westminster seem so desperate to cling on?"
What do you mean by " desperate to cling on?" . 6 years ago they gave us the option to leave if we wanted to. Literally.
We chose to stay.
Westminster doing nothing more than standing by the decision that we, the people of Scotland, made.
But that is the point. They are not standing by the decision we made. We voted No ...providing... they delivered what they promised. The Vow, the strongest devolved parliament in the world etc, etc. Lead the U.K., don’t leave.....really ? Lead the U.K.! I must have missed that bit these past few years. And now they are removing powers from Holyrood without Scotgov consent. If you compare how the states in Australia interact, the Federal States in Germany interact and compare that to how the devolved nations in the U.K. are treated, with complete and utter contempt. We did not vote NO for that.
This garbage that gets spouted about a “Once in a generation vote” which has since morphed into a “ Once in a lifetime vote”. Nobody is denying that it was said but it was never agreed to formally or in writing that that was the case. Democracy did not stop in 2014. I said back in 2104 that after a NO vote Scotland would pay the price for having the audacity to even think about becoming independent, I mean how dare we? That has been the case as they seek to undermine, ridicule and weaken the Scottish Government at every turn. I am not surprised the Yes vote has increased recently. I know a few folks who voted No in 2014 that would now vote Yes.
I firmly believe that if there was another referendum tomorrow Yes would win, however I don’t want to go down that route again. I really hope that pro independence parties can win a majority at Holyrood in 2021 ( that is a given ) and if those party’s can sneak over 50% of the vote also....then that’s it. No referendum required.
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Topic Originator: 1985Par
Date: Tue 7 Jul 20:59
"We did not vote NO for that."
How do you know? Really. How do you know?
How do you know what NO voters voted for?
Fed up of being told by disgruntled referendum losers what I voted for cos they've no idea.
I don't make the arrogant assumption that I know why you voted YES.
You haven't a clue why 55% of scots voted NO in 2014 which is why you have to make stuff up and invent theories to get your head round the fact that Scotland was offered independence and rejected it.
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Tue 7 Jul 21:05
I honestly believe we voted yes the first time ..Despite all the big guns brought in to scare monger ...despite frightening all the auld folk that they can't keep the pound... despite the lie that oil was running out ...since proven wrong and Alba does not even need oil to be a rich Country ...Mi6 removed box after box of votes from polling stations ...I know you will all laugh and ridicule me I don't care... tin hat on here ....We voted to leave and were denied by a Country that can't afford to lose us ....simples :)
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Topic Originator: 1985Par
Date: Tue 7 Jul 21:11
So now we can add MI6 to the list of reasons YES lost.
1) The BBC
2) THe Vow
3) Lies
4) More Lies
5) Tunnocks
6) JK Rowling
7) MI6
Literally anything. Anything to avoid accepting the fact that the majority of Scots just didn't want it.
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Tue 7 Jul 21:20
I have various friends who worked at the count. Noone removed anything.
However, I stand by the begging and the bias in the media. Scots were effectively told the sky would fall in after a yes vote. Compare with the Brexit vote where there was a far more positive slant with reports of jobs booms, getting rid of Johnny Foreigner, fantastic trade deals.
Much as I'd like to think otherwise, most people don't read the detail. They follow what Karen and Ken say on Facebook and twitter rather than actual analysis.
Though this all comes back to my usual message on why Scotland won't become independent - because few nationalist will provide real detail or properly explain why looking at GERS or looking at current data is not the full picture. It's not quite like comparing apples and oranges but definitely like comparing peaches with nectarines.
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Tue 7 Jul 21:22
Hey 1985par ..you are entitled to your thoughts and opinions and I would never think less of you because of them
Sometimes thoughts are all we have
Who is to say we are right or wrong ?
BTW the Tunnocks caramel wafers are not as good as Aldi's :)
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Topic Originator: desparado
Date: Tue 7 Jul 21:26
Majority of Scots voted Yes.....been down that one before on here.
We were lied to ..simples. Perfidious Albion. The U.K. has history.
No other country contemplating independence has ever had to, provide a “ prospectus” on the future, the economy etc.
Many were convinced to vote No because of the lies. The few folk I know that believe this are living proof. How many ? Don’t know but I would suggest at least 5% hence the polls now showing around 55% as opposed to the ..cough, cough 45% that were counted as voting Yes in 2014.
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Tue 7 Jul 21:32
jake89 as a mater of interest where were your various friends counting ?
no hidden agenda btw
I am talking SNP hot spots and members and campaigners who witnessed first hand boxes being removed
edited to say ... add in no exit poll speaks volumes
We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
Post Edited (Tue 07 Jul 21:35)
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Topic Originator: londonparsfan
Date: Tue 7 Jul 21:36
Quote:
1985Par, Tue 7 Jul 21:11
So now we can add MI6 to the list of reasons YES lost.
1) The BBC
2) THe Vow
3) Lies
4) More Lies
5) Tunnocks
6) JK Rowling
7) MI6
Literally anything. Anything to avoid accepting the fact that the majority of Scots just didn't want it.
Let's give it another go then and see what the results are..
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Topic Originator: 1985Par
Date: Tue 7 Jul 21:42
"Many were convinced to vote No because of the lies."
You're at it again. Telling the NO voters why they voted NO. We all swallowed the lies that you more intelligent YES voters had the intelligence to ignore. Pure arrogance.
And if I can take you up on your previous assertion about the " once in a generation vote" -garbage you called it.
When I cast my vote in 2014 I was under no illusion that this would be my one and only ever say in the matter. The " once in a generation/lifetime" message was not just mentioned in passing, it was drummed in by Sturgeon ( no shortage of video evidence) So I went to the polls in the knowledge that I would have to abide by the result for the rest of my life
So if, as you say, it was garbage, then I was duped, hoodwinked and lied to by Salmond and Sturgeon.
Oh, and if Boris caves in and you get you're indyref 2, is the result going to binding for a generation or does that depend on the result?
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Tue 7 Jul 21:48
All Edinburgh, buspasspar. I still remember one of them saying she couldn't believe all the no votes as they came in. She was utterly gutted. We all worked together at that point and were convinced it would be yes because pretty much our whole office were yes voters.
Btw - away you go with the Aldi caramel wafers. May not agree with Tunnocks but their wafers are far better.
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Topic Originator: londonparsfan
Date: Tue 7 Jul 21:50
The once in a generation message was a political slogan not a statement on how long the result would stand for. It gets touted about by people afraid to allow others to exercise their democratic right because they're worried another vote might not reflect their opinion.
Although it was an exit poll the most popular position on how long the result should stand for before another referendum should be considered was 10 years and that was across all yes/no voters.
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Tue 7 Jul 21:53
Whether people accept it or not, Scots were lied to.
Extra powers - lie.
Equal voice - lie.
Stay in Europe - lie.
Can't use the pound - lie.
Hard borders - lie.
I'm sure there are more but those are just a few.
Of course, the Nationalists told lies too, but not to the extent that the UK Government and our media did.
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Topic Originator: 1985Par
Date: Tue 7 Jul 21:56
"The once in a generation message was a political slogan not a statement on how long the result would stand for."
1) So what message was I supposed to get from this "slogan"?
2) If we'd had a YES vote, you'd be quite happy with a referendum about now on a return to the union, given that the timescale for how long the result should stand hadn't been specified as you say?
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Topic Originator: desparado
Date: Tue 7 Jul 22:01
Topic Originator: 1985Par
Date: Tue 7 Jul 21:42
"Many were convinced to vote No because of the lies."
You're at it again. Telling the NO voters why they voted NO. We all swallowed the lies that you more intelligent YES voters had the intelligence to ignore. Pure arrogance.
And if I can take you up on your previous assertion about the " once in a generation vote" -garbage you called it.
When I cast my vote in 2014 I was under no illusion that this would be my one and only ever say in the matter. The " once in a generation/lifetime" message was not just mentioned in passing, it was drummed in by Sturgeon ( no shortage of video evidence) So I went to the polls in the knowledge that I would have to abide by the result for the rest of my life
So if, as you say, it was garbage, then I was duped, hoodwinked and lied to by Salmond and Sturgeon.
Oh, and if Boris caves in and you get you're indyref 2, is the result going to binding for a generation or does that depend on the result?
So what you are saying is that only SNP politicians should be held to their word outside of a manifesto and every other party can lie all day...including in their manifesto and not be held accountable? Yip that sounds fair.
If the polls were to go to 70% in favour you would still be against the Scottish people having the right to decide then?
Your churlish remark about Yes voters being more intelligent is ...well...churlish. There are many people out there who believe they were lied to and regret voting NO are you calling them all stupid then ?
I could almost accept the result in 2014 if U.K. gov had delivered on their...promises. Not only did they renege on them they have treated the Scottish Parliament, our democratically elected representatives and consequently the Scottish people with utter contempt since then. You might be happy with this state of affairs but I am certainly not and it seems the majority of people who live in Scotland are not either. A majority win next year with a majority of the vote then it is game over.
You will just have to accept that the Scottish people have changed their minds....
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Topic Originator: 1985Par
Date: Tue 7 Jul 22:14
"You will just have to accept that the Scottish people have changed their minds...."
I could accept it.
Or I could follow the precedent you've set.
Throw my toys out the pram and greet till i get my way.
You lost in 2014 and the only person in the world who can grant you a LEGAL referendum knows you lost and will uphold the result of the referendum which he too was convinced by Sturgeon to be, wait for it.... "once in a generation".
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Tue 7 Jul 22:41
1985Par, do you accept that lies were told by the No side prior to the vote or do you think the 'once in a generation' 'lie' trumps them all? False promises are made and sometimes downright lies are told in all political campaigns (eg the Brexit bus) but no one's ever held to account over them so why make an exception for that one?
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Topic Originator: desparado
Date: Tue 7 Jul 22:51
Nobody set a precedent in LEGAL terms.
The U.K. Gov set a precedent in LEGAL terms then when they promised and failed to deliver? ....it works both ways.
The people will decide. If we want it we will get it and we won’t have to beg any Tory toff for it.
If you are happy that Scotland should be subjected to ANY U.K. gov and ANY policies that they decide to impose upon because of what was SAID during a referendum then I would question your intelligence.
I suppose going by your logic Boris should provide the money that he promise the Health Service during the Brexit referendum then.
I can only assume that you have an agenda and it is certainly not based on democratic principles.
You will no doubt be happy that the U.K. gov is planning to - in fact is currently undermining the democratic will of the Scottish people by diluting the powers in Holyrood.
We voted 75% in favour of devolution and it was WRITTEN that these powers could only be taken away with the CONSENT of the Scottish Government. That consent has NOT been given.
You strike me as a bitter Labour voter who will be happy to see his own country “ transformed“ into a region of England.
Wow what ambition you have for your country.....not. All because of what was said during a referendum. Pathetic.
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Tue 7 Jul 23:24
If you think that electoral corruption does not happen then cast your mind back to Fife: to the by-election in Glenrothes 2008. Labour were in disarray under Gordon Brown due to the banking collapse and his position as leader was under attack. He was bailing out the banks at the expense of the people, a policy continued in later years by Cameron.
Anyhow, on the day of polling most commentators believed the result was too close to call. Some Labour activists were conceding defeat. Yet Labour won. That was no great surprise; but they won by around 6,000 votes! Where did these votes come from? The SNP believed they had got their vote out, so who were these extra Labour voters?
We never found out. The electoral register which marks every voter was, er, lost. Where? In Kirkcaldy Town House, Gordon Brown's backyard, of all places. It had been misplaced and thrown out with the rubbish. Yes, it's true.
The real rubbish was who destroyed the register which leads back to Brown and his MI5 backers. Scotland will never be free unless it fights on the streets. Sturgeon is a lawyer and worships a legality which is counter to her aims. She will never lead Scotland to freedom.
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Topic Originator: desparado
Date: Tue 7 Jul 23:34
Sammer, there are those amongst us who actually believe that the “British values “ of fair play ......lol....actually transcends into elections...
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Tue 7 Jul 23:49
MI5 and MI6 have been mighty busy.
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Wed 8 Jul 00:37
BTW, I think Labour would have actually won the Glenrothes 2008 by-election without any help. Lindsay Roy, the Labour Party candidate,was plucked from political obscurity to fight the seat since local Labour potential candidates saw it as a loser. So Lindsay, who I knew personally and was respected by those who did know him, was handed the dodgy seat.
As it turned out Lindsay's local reputation was high and he had voter recognition by having been a headmaster in the Glenrothes area. I think he would have won narrowly, fair and square.
So the SNP never made a big thing of it. But a 6,000 majority and a missing electoral register? It was a corrupt vote. Brown was needed during the banking collapse so he had to be supported and stuff the local electorate and stuff the ballot boxes. Democracy has its limits.
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Topic Originator: londonparsfan
Date: Wed 8 Jul 00:45
He was the headmaster at Inverkeithing and it's fair to say a few parents thought he had an "old school" attitude to women.
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Topic Originator: OzPar
Date: Wed 8 Jul 15:37
Ally McLeod is to blame for all this nonsense.
I will always be convinced that if Scotland had done better at the 1978 World Cup in Argentina, we would have voted yes in the independence referendum in March 1979.
We lost all fervour for Scottish independence the moment Cabillas toed that free-kick past Alan Rough.
And just think of the consequences...
The oil money would have been ours and we'd have had 40 years of its benefits. We could have done a Norway with it and created a wealth fund to make Scots' lives better.
Throughout the '80s, our prime minister would probably have been Winnie Ewing rather than Maggie Thatcher.
All those nationalised industries would have been split to include a Scottish component and they need not have been privatised.
Scotland today would be a long-standing member of the EU.
Scotland would be a very different and self-assured nation.
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Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe
Date: Wed 8 Jul 17:15
To be fair to Ally Mcloud, it was only a vote for an assembly in 1979 not independence
Zwei Pints Bier und ein Päckchen Chips bitte
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Topic Originator: desparado
Date: Wed 8 Jul 22:57
And we did vote yes, but the vote was rigged.
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Topic Originator: Luxembourg Par
Date: Wed 15 Jul 14:03
Would any IndyRef2 be skewed by EU nationals votes?
Over 200k EU nationals (approx 4% of population) live in Scotland.
I would have to assume that the vast majority would have voted 'NO' due to the assertion that a 'YES' vote would mean Scotland being removed from the EU.
Ergo - given the Brexit vote, whereby Scotland as part of UK, are leaving the EU, and the Scottish Government declaring that they want to stay IN the EU...
If that 4% voted 'YES' - that is an IMMEDIATE 8% swing!
Further, any new promises of future benefits would be treated with extreme scepticism given how much of the last set of promises have come to fruition.
I strongly suspect that (despite the teeth-gnashing of all the Sevco fans), an IndyRef2 would be a rather resounding 'YES'.
- Westminster knows it too, and will do everything possible to deny the opportunity to vote again.
Post Edited (Wed 15 Jul 14:04)
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Topic Originator: londonparsfan
Date: Wed 15 Jul 15:14
I think for that very reason Lux there has been talk of trying to exclude the EU Nationals from an Indy Ref 2 vote.
It's been blamed on Brexit:
https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/eu-nationals-will-not-have-right-vote-indyref2-334700
It would be a sweeping statement to say they would all vote for Independence hoping Scotland would apply for EU Membership but you cant help but feel a significant majority would want to be in a country that afforded them continued EU citizen membership and all the protections that come with it.
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Topic Originator: donj
Date: Wed 15 Jul 20:15
So the rules are if you can swing vote our way you are in,other way out.
Make the rule only born in Scotland for the vote then if the EU nationals who live here can't vote.
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Wed 15 Jul 20:20
So my friend who was born in England but has lived here for 15 years, bought a home here, married a Scot and has a wee girl born here wouldn't be allowed a say? Don't be daft. Anyone who has lived here more than X years (3?) should be allowed a vote.
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Wed 15 Jul 20:40
It will happen theres no doubt about it (song there) I was hoping in my life time ...but we wis robbed ref ...where was var back then ??
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Topic Originator: donj
Date: Wed 15 Jul 20:53
Jake I totally agree.My point was about them getting rid of others.
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Topic Originator: desparado
Date: Wed 15 Jul 22:25
I have been called xenophobic on here a few times for suggesting that there should be a criteria for voting on constitutional matters in Scotland. It is the same all over the world. If you have been a resident in Scotland for say five years you can vote in an Indy ref.....if you have not...then tough you can’t vote.
I can’t see why many rUK folk and rUK students for example who have only been here for a few months and who have no intention of staying here should be given a vote. Same for folk from the EU or elsewhere in the world.
Read today that not only do 54% of folk in Scotland support independence but 2/3rds of under 55 year old‘s do also. Add the fact that 49% of folk in England now support English independence...apparently.
Looks unstoppable now...1985par ;-)
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Thu 16 Jul 08:10
More likely to see English independence than Scottish I reckon.
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Topic Originator: red-star-par
Date: Thu 16 Jul 08:59
Quote:
jake89, Thu 16 Jul 08:10
More likely to see English independence than Scottish I reckon.
It will be good to then see Boris and Co plead with the English public to "vote remain as we can't afford to leave"
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Topic Originator: aaaaaaaaaargh
Date: Thu 16 Jul 09:04
My dad always used to say that Scotland will only get independence when England votes for it. I thought it would never happen, but I think it might only be a few years off.
Negotiations over Brexit, trade, devolution, and laws over the coming years will expose England to a number of problems. These will force them to choose between maintaining the United Kingdom and having unacceptable links to the EU, or breaking up the UK to have 'true' independence from Europe.
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Topic Originator: 1985Par
Date: Thu 16 Jul 09:43
"Looks unstoppable now...1985par ;-)"
Nats have been speaking for the last 5 years about this " unstoppable momentum". Brexit, then Boris, would cause support for indy to surge. It surged to 46% at the last GE, in which millions we're polled. I'm not going to get carried away with the results of polls of 1000 sample size showing a pro indy majority any more than I got carried away with a multitude of polls that have showed a significant pro union majority over the last few years. Opinion on independence is finely balanced and fluctuates constantly.
But it doesn't matter.
We were granted a referendum on this and the result was legal and decisive.
And although swathes of nationalists have managed to convince themselves that the 2014 referendum doesn't count for anything - indeed some have managed to erase it from history - the people who make decisions in the UK see it as being a comprehensive, legally binding result.
You need to convince the UK PM that 2014 counted for nothing and we need to have another referendum which will count for everything ( if you win of course).
Good luck with that.
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Thu 16 Jul 11:47
I think people will start to question why Westminster should have a veto over an independence referendum.
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Topic Originator: red-star-par
Date: Thu 16 Jul 13:53
In any union, an equal partner shouldn't have to ask permission to think about leaving
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Topic Originator: moviescot
Date: Thu 16 Jul 14:34
Quote:
red-star-par, Thu 16 Jul 13:53
In any union, an equal partner shouldn't have to ask permission to think about leaving
This shows your issue exactly. Equal partners is the biggest lie.
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Topic Originator: 1985Par
Date: Thu 16 Jul 15:34
"In any union, an equal partner shouldn't have to ask permission to think about leaving"
It should however ask the electorate if they want to.
Which we did.
It's a nationalist myth to say that Westminster " won't let us go".
They did give us the option to leave remember. That is the big elephant in the room.
Post Edited (Thu 16 Jul 15:38)
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Thu 16 Jul 15:48
We had a referendum. The unionists got the result they wanted then failed to deliver the changes they promised and organised another referendum which took us out of the EU. Is that what the majority of Scots voted for? We now have probably the most incompetent government at Westminster in my lifetime and the last 3 prime ministers are probably the three worst since the end of the war. Should we just suck it up?
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Topic Originator: Luxembourg Par
Date: Thu 16 Jul 16:22
<<We had a referendum. The unionists got the result they wanted then failed to deliver the changes they promised and organised another referendum which took us out of the EU. Is that what the majority of Scots voted for?>>
With the benefit of hindsight, the "changes they promised" was obviously 'bluster', treating the referendum like any other election where they say what they think is required to get the vote
- not that this excuses the behaviour, but is it really unexpected for a politician or government to fail to live up to their pre-election 'promises'?
The <big elephant in the room> - as you put it - is that Scotland were told specifically, that they would be out of the EU with Independence, and that the ONLY way to guarantee staying in the EU was to remain in the UK.
Subsequent events are enough to nullify this declaration - and is a significant enough on its own, for the question of Independence to be revisited.
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Thu 16 Jul 16:37
''..but is it really unexpected for a politician or government to fail to live up to their pre-election 'promises'?''
No it isn't unexpected but it also means the result of the said election should not be sacrosanct. Unfortunately in modern politics the end is seen to justify the means, no matter how nefarious they are. The Brexit battle bus was another prime example of this.
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Topic Originator: 1985Par
Date: Thu 16 Jul 16:54
"The <big elephant in the room> - as you put it - is that Scotland were told specifically, that they would be out of the EU with Independence, and that the ONLY way to guarantee staying in the EU was to remain in the UK."
I love that one.
The Nats go on and on about it. How much the EU means to them.
So much so that, when Cameron gave you a guarantee of staying in 2014, you ignored it entirely, as did every single YES voter.
You took the " out of the EU with independence " choice - as you put it.
You only became remotely concerned about EU membership when you smelled grievance and though it might offer you another shot at indy.
In a mire of nationalist hypocrisy, the " we love the EU " nonsense tops the lot.
In 2014 you weren't the least bit bothered about EU membership as you proved when you effectively voted to leave it.
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Thu 16 Jul 17:19
I think the consensus was that it would be easy for an independent Scotland to negotiate entry to the EU as the UK would still be part of it. It's good of you to admit that Cameron 'guaranteed' the UK would be staying in the EU though.
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Topic Originator: 1985Par
Date: Thu 16 Jul 18:33
Cameron's " guarantee" only became a talking point in the run up to the EU referendum when the SNP sniffed a grievance opportunity.
In 2014 YES voters ignored it entirely, deciding to gamble with EU membership. So what is the source of your grievance? Nationalists focus on Cameron's pledge in 2014 as a game changer - but they ignored it entirely.
Nationalists arrogantly assume that large swathes of NO voters voted NO because they, unlike YES voters, took EU membership so seriously it trumped every other issue which shaped their vote in 2014.
It didn't.
Evidence?
If we assume, as you will be in the 2021 scottish elections, that a vote for the SNP and Greens is a vote for indy, then AFTER Brexit support for indy was as follows
2017 general election 37%
2019 EU election 38 %
2019 general election 46%
Where are the large swathes of aggrieved NO voters who thought that their 2014 vote was a cast iron guarantee of EU membership?
Cameron's pledge was not the reason you lost in 2014. Neither was the BBC, Neither was JK Rowling nor tunnocks teacakes.
Nationalists just can't accept that, at the time of asking, most voters in Scotland wanted to remain in the union.
Their only way of getting their head round this is to make the assumption that we were duped.
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Topic Originator: Luxembourg Par
Date: Thu 16 Jul 18:51
The SNP's position was that as Scotland was part of the EU, it already had all of the standards in place for EU entry under Article 49.
- no gamble there.
As previously mentioned, it is not unreasonable to think that the +200k EU citizens in Scotland would vote to remain part of the EU.
- no arrogance there at all.
This would have swung the vote already, without considering the lies and falsehoods spouted forth about pensions, in 'the vow' etc etc
YOU are assuming that a vote for anyone except SNP/Greens is a vote AGAINST independence.
<Labour for Independence> anyone?
Agreed (allegations of vote rigging aside) most voters did indeed vote to stay in the UK - when was that not accepted?
However - <duped> would be quite an accurate assessment.
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Thu 16 Jul 19:09
No exit poll in 2014 speaks volumes
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Thu 16 Jul 19:38
There was an exit poll wasn't there? I still remember Douglas Alexander's smug grin.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Thu 16 Jul 19:57
No Towk no exit poll
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Topic Originator: 1985Par
Date: Thu 16 Jul 20:17
point 1 - "The SNP's position was that as Scotland was part of the EU, it already had all of the standards in place for EU entry under Article 49.
- no gamble there."
so why on earth then, given that this was " a given" would anyone need to be swayed by Cameron's pledge???????? On the one hand you're telling me we all knew that we'd march into the EU nae bother and on the other hand you're telling me NO voters voted NO for fear of losing EU membership?
point 2 - "As previously mentioned, it is not unreasonable to think that the +200k EU citizens in Scotland would vote to remain part of the EU.
- no arrogance there at all."
see point 1 -essentially you're saying that 200k EU citizens voted to remain in the UK in order to remain in the EU, even though they knew that an independent Scotland would be in the EU? No gamble - as you say.
point 3 - "YOU are assuming that a vote for anyone except SNP/Greens is a vote AGAINST independence."
as you will be assuming, if greens + SNP is greater than 50% in 2021, then you have a mandate for indy and that all Green voters want indy.
I've just dismantled every point you've tried to make.
Post Edited (Thu 16 Jul 20:25)
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Thu 16 Jul 20:39
1985Par we are talking about a wide cross section of Scots folk here
Auld folk who were intimidated by the Big Guns brought in to frighten them and I can understand why they were frightened by the rhetoric and lies
The folk who were told that if the vote was Yes then they would be out of work as their Company would move South ...more lies
Camerons pledge suited a lot of the fence sitters ..We will get more powers ..we will still keep the pound ..Christmas day will still be the 25th Dec. etc. more lies except for Christmas day before ye start :)
Back in 2014 the majority of ordinary Scots folk did not know/understand the EU dilemma ....Nor would I guess did you If you did back then please accept my apologies
England simply cannot afford to lose Scotland if they could why do you think they lied, cheated, manipulated and vote rigged to keep us ?
We have always been cannon fodder to our superior masters so why not just dump us ?
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Topic Originator: 1985Par
Date: Thu 16 Jul 20:54
"Back in 2014 the majority of ordinary Scots folk did not know/understand the EU dilemma ....Nor would I guess did you If you did back then please accept my apologies"
I hadn't a clue about the EU. The vast majority didn't. In the months leading up to the 2014 referendum and in the the hours of debate which preceded it, whether online, on the doorstep or in the pub i can say, with hand on heart, I do not recall discussing EU membership once.
"England simply cannot afford to lose Scotland if they could why do you think they lied, cheated, manipulated and vote rigged to keep us ?"
You've fallen back into the nationalist default setting of assuming a large number of NO voters are gullible fools. So foolish in fact, that in the following 5 years, as support for the union remained around 55% despite Boris and Brexit, we still believe those "lies", if that's what you think they are.
Is it so hard to accept that, at the time of asking ( and in the following 5 years), more people in this country are happier in the union, without resorting to claims of lies, cheating and foul play?
Post Edited (Thu 16 Jul 21:08)
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Topic Originator: donj
Date: Thu 16 Jul 21:08
I note you missed answering why the UK are so desperate to keep Scotland by going off on a tangent.Politician style answer.
The question is why did they lie and jump through hoops to make sure the referendum failed if we were such a basket case that cost them loads of money.
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Topic Originator: 1985Par
Date: Thu 16 Jul 21:34
"I note you missed answering why the UK are so desperate to keep Scotland by going off on a tangent.Politician style answer."
WE're back at the start about 50 posts ago. Going round in circles.
WM gave us the option to leave. We rejected it.
"
The question is why did they lie and jump through hoops to make sure the referendum failed if we were such a basket case that cost them loads of money."
Here we go again. NO voters are gullible fools. They bought the lies that us, more savvy, intelligent YES voters managed to dodge.
You lost. Get over it.
Oh and by the way. You go on about lies, lies, lies.
Please articulate. Which specific areas do you feel the Smith commision have failed to deliver on and why, given that there is SNP and Green representation on the committee, have they failed to do so.
Post Edited (Thu 16 Jul 21:42)
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Thu 16 Jul 22:48
I get the impression you're against independence rather than in favour of the union.
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Topic Originator: Luxembourg Par
Date: Fri 17 Jul 01:10
You've 'dismantled' absolutely nothing.
The SNP's position was that EU entry would be attainable.
Cameron stated 'facts' that it wouldn't.
Enough people would be swayed or simply unsure.
EU Citizens were told that by staying in the UK, they would definitely stay in the EU.
- Assuming the UK stayed in the EU, this was true,
- yes, of course many/most were swayed by this. Are you too blinkered to realise this?
IF the SNP & Greens put in their manifesto that a vote for them IS a vote for Independence, then yes, clearly this would be a mandate.
If they don't, then not so. Clear? No assumptions.
As for your multiple posts alleging <gullible fools> - not so, your words, not mine.
The lie does not need to be believed, merely needs to sow enough seeds of doubt in the minds of the undecided.
Many older folks were brought up to see the BBC as the deliverer of truth, and when umpteen 'respected' politicians are wheeled out to threaten that they will lose their pensions, and this is repeated and repeated and repeated ad nauseam, with the opposing view not given airtime - ofc they will be worried and vote accordingly in their self interest.
"Back in 2014 the majority of ordinary Scots folk did not know/understand the EU dilemma ....Nor would I guess did you If you did back then please accept my apologies"
I'm obviously not <normal> - I work in the middle of Europe, I have many friends, colleagues and former colleagues working or worked in the various EU institutions, my kids were attending the European School, where approx 90% of classmates had at least one parent working for the EU.
The in/out/remain/secede/accede question, and even the 'successor state' possibility was discussed at length - and not just by Scots, or even Brits.
Just because YOU <hadn't a clue>, doesn't mean that everyone else was as clueless as you admit to being.
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Topic Originator: DBP
Date: Fri 17 Jul 06:49
As someone who's family is now spread across those with eu passports and those without, i know many of my friends, family and work colleagues who voted no (reluctantly our otherwise) so as not to leave themselves in limbo out of the eu
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Fri 17 Jul 07:40
Still waiting to hear answer to why Westminster politicians intervened in the vote and spread mistruths and promised new powers if we stayed.
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Topic Originator: 1985Par
Date: Fri 17 Jul 09:11
There were no lies. The cross-party smith commission was put in place to ensure the Vow was delivered.
BUT
Let's assume that the NO campaign told a pack of lies. Lies, lies, all lies. We were all duped.
Why, after 5 years, after all these "lies" had been exposed, had support for independence not in increased by 1%? Infact, in the years that followed it arguably fell. We've had supposed lies, supposed BBC bias, Brexit and then Boris and still support for independence hovered around 45%.
Please explain why 100's of thousands of aggrieved and disgruntled NO voters, in the full knowledge that they've been lied to and tricked, are still pro union.
Jake - "Still waiting to hear answer to why Westminster politicians intervened in the vote and spread mistruths and promised new powers if we stayed."
WM politicians, as they govern the UK, are perfectly entitled to do what they can to ensure it sticks together. They are allowed to campaign and try to persuade the electorate just as the SNP did. Scotland leaving the UK had UK implications, so why not get involved? Is only one side allowed to campaign?
Can you give me a specific promise or part of the vow which the smith commission have failed to deliver on?
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Topic Originator: Luxembourg Par
Date: Fri 17 Jul 10:42
<to ensure the vow was delivered>
Genuine LOL moment there :D
PROMISE: We were promised the most devolved administration in the world, “virtual federalism.” There was some further partial devolution of tax and some limited devolution of welfare. Regional administrations in Belgium, Germany and Spain have more autonomy than us.
RESULT: Didn’t happen.
PROMISE: The Smith Commission proposed that UK legislation state that the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Government were to be permanent institutions.
However, the Scotland Act 2016, while stating that any abolition should be subject to a Scottish referendum, institutes a weak statutory mechanism, and states no provisions or guarantees for such a referendum. Neither does it make duties of Crown Ministers in this respect publicly answerable to the Scottish electorate. And we’re still “devolved” not “autonomous” - so it can all be taken back anyway.
RESULT: Didn’t really happen.
PROMISE: It was proposed that Scottish Ministers be fully involved in agreeing the UK position in EU negotiations relating to devolved policy. Instead, we got Brexit.
RESULT: Didn’t happen.
PROMISE: We were told that pensions would be safe if we stayed in the UK. In July 2017, the government announced its intention to increase the state pension age from 67 to 68 between 2037 and 2039, which is seven years earlier than previously planned.
RESULT: Definitely didn’t happen.
PROMISE: We were told that we would be “valued partners” in the UK. Cameron then introduced “English Votes for English Laws (EVEL)” This effectively creates barriers against any Scot becoming Prime Minister, and bars Scottish MPs from participating in any legislation that is deemed “English” even when such laws may have a knock-on effect in Scotland. Also, we voted against Brexit, but are being dragged out of the EU anyway.
RESULT: Never happened.
PROMISE: David Cameron promised during the independence referendum renewables would benefit from £millions of UK investment. After the 2015 General Election he cancelled the Renewable Obligation subsidy scheme, costing Scotland 5500 jobs in the renewable energy sector and an estimated loss of £3 billion in investment.
RESULT: Didn’t happen.
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Topic Originator: 1985Par
Date: Fri 17 Jul 16:24
OK. Lets just say that NO won as a result of a raft of lies. Several hundred thousand people, like me, voted under false pretences, duped by the vow.
Is it not then reasonable to assume that, in the days, months and years following the referendum as these " lies" were exposed one by one, that there would be a bit of a backlash? Thousands and thousands of aggrieved NO voters having realised that they've been tricked, lied to, with an opportunity to vent their grievance through the polls.
It didn't happen.
Then Brexit. " we were guaranteed EU membership". " We're being dragged out of the EU against our will".
Increase in support for indy = 0%.
Why, after 5 years, had all these duped NO voters not changed their mind, given the wealth of evidence that they've been lied to? If an indyref2 had been held in december last year, you'd have lost by the same margin as the first time.
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Fri 17 Jul 18:21
You'd need to ask those polled.
Point still remains that Westminster sought to influence the vote in favour of the union, which hardly seems ethical. Share fact, yes. But don't place a bribe on the table.
No matter what side of the fence you are on, it's concerning that the country is divided.
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Fri 17 Jul 19:15
Quote :-
Increase in support for indy = 0%.
One of the UK’s leading pollsters has warned that Brexit has put the union at risk after another survey showed a narrow lead for Scottish independence.
Sir John Curtice, of the University of Strathclyde, said the poll by Panelbase putting the yes vote at 52% confirmed a trend showing a gradual increase in support for leaving the UK, post-Brexit.
Three polls in the past five days had put the yes vote at 50% or higher. “The pursuit of Brexit is putting support for the union at risk, that’s the very clear lesson,” Curtice said.
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Fri 17 Jul 22:37
Isn't 50 a bigger number than 45?
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Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe
Date: Fri 17 Jul 23:18
There's no doubt there's been a consistent shift in recent months but even myself as a nationalist can see most of this is down to the handling on Covid in Scotland compared to England or how it has been perceived.
It gives confidence that in a crisis, we can run our own affairs and that had clearly rubbed off on some soft unionists.
It may wear off though if or when normality resumes and we find the polling back at 50/50 or thereabouts.
Zwei Pints Bier und ein Päckchen Chips bitte
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Topic Originator: donj
Date: Fri 17 Jul 23:45
There is a lot more than that if you need prescriptions,go to university,cross the bridge etc.Basically this government tries to look after us.Boris and his gang look after themselves.
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Sat 18 Jul 12:12
All well and good but how would Scotland pay for all this? Oh, that's right, the same way Westminster does - by getting us trillions in debt. 😂
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Topic Originator: Luxembourg Par
Date: Sun 19 Jul 07:15
<<All well and good but how would Scotland pay for all this? Oh, tHat's right, the same way Westminster does - by getting us trillions in debt. >>
Just so we are clear... It's OK for the UK to run a deficit and borrow trillions, but not OK for Scotland (not running a deficit) to borrow also?
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Sun 19 Jul 08:13
I was being sarcastic. Always reminded of that Rangers supporter in the England top telling everyone the Queen pays his dole money...
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