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 Gavin Williamson
Topic Originator: ipswichpar  
Date:   Wed 8 Sep 15:03

Dear or dear, confusing Maro Itoje and Marcus Rashford.

Like something off The Thick Of It.
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 Re: Gavin Williamson
Topic Originator: Bandy  
Date:   Wed 8 Sep 20:29

wonder what it is about Rashford and Itoje that caused Williamson to confuse them.

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 Re: Gavin Williamson
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Thu 9 Sep 08:42

It wasn't the accents!


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Gavin Williamson
Topic Originator: 1985Par  
Date:   Thu 9 Sep 11:38

"wonder what it is about Rashford and Itoje that caused Williamson to confuse them."

Enlighten us. If you are implying that Gavin Williamson is racist because he didn`t know the name of the black person he was speaking to then God help us all.

I`d recognise Rashford anywhere, however I have never seen or heard of Itoje before now.

It`s got to the point where people, like you, are actually looking for racism where it doesn`t exist.

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 Re: Gavin Williamson
Topic Originator: Bandy  
Date:   Thu 9 Sep 12:58

1985Par

Enlighten us. If you are implying that Gavin Williamson is racist because he didn`t know the name of the black person he was speaking to then God help us all.

Possibly. It`s a very strange mistake to make. I can`t imagine him mistaking say, Jonny Wilkinson, for Harry Kane. I`m struggling to think of other rational explanations. Maybe he wasn`t paying attention to who he was speaking with, which is pretty unusual for a 1-2-1 conversation. I mean I often forget the content of conversations but very rarely forget who I had the conversation with.

I`d recognise Rashford anywhere, however I have never seen or heard of Itoje before now.

Totally irrelevant. The statement wasn`t made about you, it was made about Gavin Williamson, who HAS met Itoje (and presumably also knows who Rashford is given his campaign against the Government).

It`s got to the point where people, like you, are actually looking for racism where it doesn`t exist.

Maybe I`m looking for racism. Maybe I am seeing it where it doesn`t exist, but surely better to highlight things that could be racist so we can understand, learn and improve than just assuming things aren`t racist?

let`s look at some evidence.

Boris Johnson is the leader of the Conservative party (and our Prime Minister).
Boris Johnson values loyalty to him above anything else - evidenced by his willingness to back his current catastrophe of a cabinet vs his willingness to sack anyone who questioned his Brexit deal.
Boris Johnson is a racist. There are countless examples of him saying racist things.
Gavin Williamson is a cabinet minister under Boris Johnson and is therefore intensely loyal to him.

Is it beyond the realms of possibility that someone who has pledged loyalty to a racist might also be a bit racist?

Edited. Italicised the wrong bits.

Post Edited (Thu 09 Sep 15:47)
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 Re: Gavin Williamson
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Thu 9 Sep 13:41

People sometimes misunderstand racism as an active thing - that a person has to deliberately do something in order to be racist - but that`s not the case.

I define it as something like "that which negatively impacts one group of people disproportionately as a result of their ethnic background"

Sometimes we are just racist by automatic social conditioning or by having more familiarity with, and therefore a finer degree of understanding of, one group of people compared with the other.

I`m sure that Williamson wouldn`t have gotten a posh white rugby player mixed up with a working class white footballer, because the rugby player would probably have been in or around his social circle as a fellow posh white dude.

There`s a lot of nuance to racism and not everything that could be considered racist is a heinous crime worthy of sanction, sometimes it`s just a reminder that we all need to be more careful sometimes.

Williamson obviously has a mental category for "black socially campaigning sportsmen" that doesn`t have enough nuance.

Edit to add: I did my version of that same thing here by assuming that Gavin Willamson is posh. I just checked and he is not posh: he went to state school in Yorkshire then Bradford university. I should have been more careful.


Post Edited (Thu 09 Sep 13:45)
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 Re: Gavin Williamson
Topic Originator: Bandy  
Date:   Thu 9 Sep 15:17

Great post Wotsit and kudos to you for being open and honest about your own biases and pre-conceptions. You can only address your biases and preconceptions when you become aware of them.

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 Re: Gavin Williamson
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Thu 9 Sep 18:04

I don't think it can be deemed racist.

It's basically two sports guys who do similar things - one campaigned for free meals, one campaigned for free laptops.

If I confuse Ron Perlman and Will Ferrell am I racist?
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 Re: Gavin Williamson
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Thu 9 Sep 18:26

In my opinion it depends whether or not it invokes my definition:

"that which negatively impacts one group of people disproportionately as a result of their ethnic background"

If Ron Perlman and/or Will Ferrell are negatively impacted in their lives as a result of people being prejudiced against them as a result of their ethnicity (including conflating them with other, completely different, people) then, yes, in my view it`s racist: whether it is intended to be or not.

Luckily for Ron Perlman and Will Ferrell they are part of the dominant ethnic group in their country so the power dynamics are less likely to impact them negatively due to their ethnicity.

That`s not to say that they are not subject to systemic prejudice or exclusion, just not as a result of their ethnicity.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Gavin Williamson
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Thu 9 Sep 20:08

It depends on the context. Did he confuse them because they're two black guys, or was it because they're two sportsmen doing similar things? Perhaps in his mind he met with some sports guy who wanted to do something good. Alternatively, as has been suggested, he's grouped them as "black guys who want free stuff or whatever".

I haven't a clue who the rugby player is (no interest in rugby) but I'd expect most people would know who Marcus Rashford is given all the attention the free meals got so perhaps Williamson has grouped them in an unconsciously racist manner. However, I don't think you can automatically conclude racism.
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 Re: Gavin Williamson
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Thu 9 Sep 20:25

The intent isn't necessarily racist, but the result is racist because it disproportionately, and negatively, impacts people of certain ethnicities more than it does others.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Gavin Williamson
Topic Originator: Bandy  
Date:   Thu 9 Sep 21:34

Unconscious racism is still racism

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 Re: Gavin Williamson
Topic Originator: 1985Par  
Date:   Thu 9 Sep 22:10

FFS he got 2 peoples names mixed up. He`s likely got no interest/knowledge of football and rugby. It`s a mistake I could have made if I was interviewing 2 white gymnasts, 2 chinese cello players or 2 black playwrights.

He got 2 peoples names mixed up and the woke community are struggling to contain their excitement at the fact they`ve invented yet another thing to be offended about.

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 Re: Gavin Williamson
Topic Originator: ipswichpar  
Date:   Fri 10 Sep 06:21

You're not fit to be a Secretary of State either then ;)
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 Re: Gavin Williamson
Topic Originator: DA-go Par Adonis  
Date:   Fri 10 Sep 09:29

If you`ve woken up today and found yourself defending Gavin Williamson on a public forum, it`s time to stop and re-evaluate.

I think that`s a rule for life rather than just when he`s making the news again for another massively embarrassing mistake.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I love it when we go sell Kevin Nisbet,
He's gonna pay for everyone this season.
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 Re: Gavin Williamson
Topic Originator: 1985Par  
Date:   Fri 10 Sep 11:22

Well said Da-go - for calling it as it is. An embarrassing mistake. You may even have made one of those yourself once upon a time. Like we all have.

Which one of you will be starting the Janey Godley thread?





Post Edited (Fri 10 Sep 11:26)
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 Re: Gavin Williamson
Topic Originator: DA-go Par Adonis  
Date:   Fri 10 Sep 11:33

"Well said Da-go - for calling it as it is. An embarrassing mistake."

I`ve not discounted the possibility that he has made an embarrassing mistake by publicly highlighting his own racist tendencies.

Are you a big fan of his work?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I love it when we go sell Kevin Nisbet,
He's gonna pay for everyone this season.
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 Re: Gavin Williamson
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Fri 10 Sep 11:37

We have indeed all made mistakes.

The grown up thing to do is to recognise the mistake and the potential damage it could do and maybe even ask yourself if you have unconscious prejudices.

Janey Godley made a decent statement about her situation where she seemed to have recognised exactly why what she said was a problem and vowed to make genuine attempts to address it. What she said (or Tweeted) was racist. She says so herself and has owned her mistake for what it was.

Gavin Williamson hasn`t done that, he has tried to minimise it and is refusing to accept that there were racist implications to what he did.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Gavin Williamson
Topic Originator: 1985Par  
Date:   Fri 10 Sep 11:51

I work in further education. A black girl I have taught for 3 months called me Mr Bennet the other day. I am not Mr Bennet. Mr Bennet is a colleague, similar age to me. We laughed it off. The girl had, in her own words, a brain fart.

Was this girl being racist towards me? NO

Did I take any offence? NO

Interestingly a colleague confused two black students last term - she got their names mixed up. The race card was played immediately. Thankfully the Principal had the common sense to see that she didn`t have a case to answer for.

Keep your rants about racism for actual racism.

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 Re: Gavin Williamson
Topic Originator: DA-go Par Adonis  
Date:   Fri 10 Sep 11:53

"A black girl I have taught for 3 months called me Mr Bennet the other day. I am not Mr Bennet. Mr Bennet is a colleague, similar age to me."


Sounds like the girl has actually spoken to both you and Mr Bennet is recent times...

Maybe she`s also not part of a pretty racist and discriminatory government?



Post Edited (Fri 10 Sep 11:55)
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 Re: Gavin Williamson
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Fri 10 Sep 12:08

Sounds like that girl isn`t ready for high political office?


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Gavin Williamson
Topic Originator: 1985Par  
Date:   Fri 10 Sep 12:14

No. But like all human beings, politicians included, she makes mistakes. I think we should treat Mr Williamson like our first minister chose to treat Janey Godley this morning on BBC Scotland.

Quote 1 - " These things happen"

Quote 2 - " none of us are infallible"

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 Re: Gavin Williamson
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Fri 10 Sep 12:25

What did Janey Godley say? I was of the understanding that she said "spazzy" or something similar. This IS offensive but not racist. Did she say something else?

I believe her comments were some time ago, which isn't an excuse, but bear in mind that barely a decade a go Scotland's top comedy was making jokes about gay men in toilets and using terms like "queer-hawk".
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 Re: Gavin Williamson
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Fri 10 Sep 12:27

It`s not our mistakes that matter, it`s how we respond to them. Gavin Williamson`s response to this suggests that he has learned nothing from it.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Gavin Williamson
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Fri 10 Sep 12:35

What did Janey Godley say? I was of the understanding that she said "spazzy" or something similar. This IS offensive but not racist. Did she say something else?

Yes. I`m not going to quote it here, but it was definitely racist.

And you are right, the fact that it was some time ago plus the fact that she doesn`t hold high political office make her situation different, context matters and power plays a role in racism.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Gavin Williamson
Topic Originator: 1985Par  
Date:   Fri 10 Sep 12:43

"And you are right, the fact that it was some time ago plus the fact that she doesn`t hold high political office make her situation different, context matters and power plays a role in racism."

What makes it different is that Godley`s comments, in stark contrast to Williamson`s, were prescripted, premeditated and blatantly racist. The fact that she was chosen to front an SNP campaign makes it political.


"It`s not our mistakes that matter, it`s how we respond to them. Gavin Williamson`s response to this suggests that he has learned nothing from it."

So if, in the future, someone addresses you by the wrong name you`re going to sit them down and discuss what they can learn from their mistake? FFS

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 Re: Gavin Williamson
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Fri 10 Sep 12:56

So if, in the future, someone addresses you by the wrong name you`re going to sit them down and discuss what they can learn from their mistake? FFS

He didn`t just address him by the wrong name, he conflated him with a completely different person.

And, folk have said this repeatedly, none of the scenarios you present, in an attempt to underplay this, have a cabinet minister making a mistake and then failing to properly address it.

The wee lassie who got your name wrong isn`t feeding into a racist trope.

Janey Godley is a comedian - it is her job to say controversial things. She went to far, but she addressed it and recognised that what she said helped to give racists ammunition for their views.

It`s not my job to sit Gavin Williamson down and explain subconscious prejudices and the social implications of how power speaks, that`s for him. My job is to let people know why I think they shouldn`t vote for someone with so little self-awareness or willingness to learn from mistakes.

I probably wouldn`t vote for Janey Godley or the wee lassie at your school either tbh


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Gavin Williamson
Topic Originator: DA-go Par Adonis  
Date:   Fri 10 Sep 13:07

Jane Godley has also been axed.

I look forward to Williamson getting similar treatment.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I love it when we go sell Kevin Nisbet,
He's gonna pay for everyone this season.
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 Re: Gavin Williamson
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Fri 10 Sep 13:42

What Janey Godley tweeted went way beyond what Gavin Williamson did. Quite frankly I find the two cases incomparable. At worst Williamson has exposed some sort of unconscious racial bias but Godley decided, several times, to tweet racial tropes and assign them to people who identify as black.

We all hate poverty, war, and injustice.
Unlike the rest of you squares.
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 Re: Gavin Williamson
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Fri 10 Sep 22:15

Quote:

The One Who Knocks, Fri 10 Sep 13:42

What Janey Godley tweeted went way beyond what Gavin Williamson did. Quite frankly I find the two cases incomparable. At worst Williamson has exposed some sort of unconscious racial bias but Godley decided, several times, to tweet racial tropes and assign them to people who identify as black.


Agreed TOWK, but their levels of power and their responses were very different.

The context of power, and lack of acknowledgement, me believe that GW's mistake will have a worse impact on society despite being a far less egregious thing to say on the surface.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Gavin Williamson
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Wed 15 Sep 14:00

Sacked as Education Secretary!

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 Re: Gavin Williamson
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Wed 15 Sep 16:30

Raab as deputy prime minister???

God help us!!🙏🤬🤬🤬
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 Re: Gavin Williamson
Topic Originator: ipswichpar  
Date:   Wed 15 Sep 17:25

Jenrick has gone too...lovely.
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 Re: Gavin Williamson
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Wed 15 Sep 17:30

Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Wed 15 Sep 14:00

Sacked as Education Secretary!


Gavisgone :)

We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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 Re: Gavin Williamson
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Wed 15 Sep 17:31

Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert
Date: Wed 15 Sep 16:30

Raab as deputy prime minister???

God help us!!🙏🤬🤬🤬

I don`t think even God could help us with that L.A.

We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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 Re: Gavin Williamson
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Wed 15 Sep 17:32

Quote:

LochgellyAlbert, Wed 15 Sep 16:30

Raab as deputy prime minister???

God help us!!🙏🤬🤬🤬


And Liz Truss replaces him!!🤯🤯🤯
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 Re: Gavin Williamson
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Wed 15 Sep 18:35

Raab as deputy PM and Justice Secretary !!

He decides whether the PM or DPM break the law!!

WTF!!!🤬🤬🤬
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 Re: Gavin Williamson
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Wed 15 Sep 18:39

Looks like the Britannia unchained authors are doing well :-



KWASI KWARTENG is MP for Spelthorne, UK.
PRITI PATEL is MP for Witham, UK.
DOMINIC RAAB is MP for Esher and Walton, UK.
CHRIS SKIDMORE is MP for Kingswood, UK.
LIZ TRUSS is MP for South West Norfolk, UK.

We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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 Re: Gavin Williamson
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Thu 16 Sep 11:01

Seemingly building up for a general election!🤔🤬🤬🤬
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 Re: Gavin Williamson
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Thu 16 Sep 15:10

L.A. I read it more as getting the right people in now for the next general election

We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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 Re: Gavin Williamson
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Thu 16 Sep 20:59

Are they the right people?

As someone said on twitter "you can't shuffle sh*t"💩💩💩
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