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 Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend  
Date:   Thu 24 Feb 06:51

It’s started. Many lives will be needlessly lost because of the madman that is Putin.
It would be great if special forces could take him out

A sad, sad day for Ukraine




It's bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: ipswichpar  
Date:   Thu 24 Feb 07:32

A sad day for us all.

Hopefully someone will send him some of his own Novichok.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy  
Date:   Thu 24 Feb 07:53

This is all about Putin creating a legacy or himself and distracting Russians from the anti-corruption protests of a few months ago. A lot of analysts saying he is doing step-by-step what he did with Georgia in 2008. You can bet your bunnet that the CCP will now be eyeing up Taiwan now as well.

Surely the US, UK, France and Germany have to consider supporting the Ukrainian ground forces from the air?

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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Jeffery  
Date:   Thu 24 Feb 07:54

Would be interesting to know how the Russian people feel about this.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy  
Date:   Thu 24 Feb 08:01

Jeffery - My Russian friends are telling me that the narrative on the TV over there is that the US and EU are hell-bent on attacking Russia. Most don`t want a war with Ukraine because they are a "brotherly nation" and generally they don`t want a war.

Putin is also collaborating with the CCP to develop Russia`s own version of the Golden Shield to censor the internet. At the moment they`ve only really got control over the TV and press. Not exactly the sign of a leader who is confident of his public support!

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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Thu 24 Feb 08:09

The NATO operation in Kosovo is the precedent upon which Putin is basing this invasion.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Thu 24 Feb 09:24

I watched a wee video on the Beeb where Putin humiliates one of his own Ministers over the Ukraine invasion .. I watched it a few times and I am convinced he is mad .. unfortunately I cant find it

We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Thu 24 Feb 09:46

We pretty much did nothing when he annexed Crimea

If we do nothing here then we may as well accept that Russia and China will redraw the map
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Tenruh  
Date:   Thu 24 Feb 10:13

Just thinking out loud here, but I`m feeling slightly discomforted with all the atomic weapons in Scotland.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: parsmad68  
Date:   Thu 24 Feb 13:34

Quote:

Tenruh, Thu 24 Feb 10:13

Just thinking out loud here, but I`m feeling slightly discomforted with all the atomic weapons in Scotland.


The whole world is in a bad way if non conventional weapons are deployed. The catalyst for North Korea, China, Malaysia and all other regimes to stand up and take notice for expansionism. I know a number of Ukrainians and they are trapped in their own borders as there is no way neighbouring countries will be wanting Ukrainian refugees. I remember some colleagues who were on a European work visa being taken into custody by Hungarian police after being reported by the Hungarian workers. Nationalism is very strong in these regions and it is the local people I truly feel sorry for. Everything they have worked to get where they are is now being dismantled. So sad.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: ipswichpar  
Date:   Thu 24 Feb 15:42

If he has kicked off a war for no reason and killed people, does that effectively make him a war criminal?
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: parsfan  
Date:   Thu 24 Feb 16:02

Quote:

ipswichpar, Thu 24 Feb 15:42

If he has kicked off a war for no reason and killed people, does that effectively make him a war criminal?


Only if he loses.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The universe is ruled by chance and indifference



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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Thu 24 Feb 16:18

As the saying goes - there are two sides to a story and the truth is normally somewhere in the middle. Is it Russia looking for a scrap to distract from issues, or is it the EU/US looking for a scrap to distract from their issues?
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Thu 24 Feb 16:27

Was watching for an update from our Russian correspondent Sammer, regarding the feelings of the Russian citizens, unless his Internet access has been restricted!🤔😷
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Thu 24 Feb 18:06

Hi LA,

I’ve been following events obviously but thought it better to allow locals on the DAFC site to start the discussion. I’m being subjected to heavy propaganda on Russian TV as you might expect and reading the equivalent in the UK media as well, with The Guardian probably being the worst offender. A few lighter moments with Ben Wallace threatening to send in the Scots Guards but overall a very gloomy picture. I thought that Macron was an honest broker but Zeelinsky, I suspect under US pressure, declined that particular chance to settle and will soon be off to his home in Miami.

There are three arguments being made for Russia’s actions. One is that Ukraine is not a true independent nation. As a Scot I completely disagree with that argument and think the Ukrainian people can judge that best for themselves.
The second argument is regarding NATO’s intrusion into territories considered in the Russian sphere of influence. That this has happened is undeniable despite written and verbal promises in the Gorbachev era that NATO would not move eastward. The claim that an independent Ukraine has the right to join NATO is as lacking in realpolitik as an independent Scotland joining some modern version of the Warsaw Pact. Or Cuba installing nuclear warheads.

The last argument is very hazy since there has been shelling going on in Donbass ever since the elected Ukrainian government was overthrown in 2014. The area might be seen as akin to Northern Ireland within the UK and both sides claim the moral high ground as you might expect. The numbers allegedly killed- 16,000- is very high although I have no idea how each side has suffered. If these numbers are anywhere near accurate then clearly the Minsk accords were not working very well since some progress towards federalisation was not taking place as agreed. That does not mean, in my view, that the answer was to tear the Minsk agreement up and send in troops.

Putin clearly intends to establish control over the Donetz and Lugansk areas. That will meet with little local resistance but if he sets his sights wider and tries to replace an American puppet like Zeelinsky with one of his own then he will become engaged in a guerrilla war. In 1969 when Jim Callaghan, Home Secretary, was phoned from a Falls Road bookies and asked to send in British troops he replied that he could do that quite easily: but he might have a hell of a trouble getting them back out.

sammer
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Thu 24 Feb 18:24

👍.....Thought you had been done by a cyber attack, knowing the global political clout that DAFC.net holds!🤔😷😎🙃

Post Edited (Thu 24 Feb 18:25)
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Thu 24 Feb 19:01

Quote:

sammer, Thu 24 Feb 18:06

Putin clearly intends to establish control over the Donetz and Lugansk areas. That will meet with little local resistance but if he sets his sights wider and tries to replace an American puppet like Zeelinsky with one of his own then he will become engaged in a guerrilla war.


You mean the democratically elected Zelenskyy?
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Parboiled  
Date:   Thu 24 Feb 19:47

Like all dictators Putin’s fate be decided by his own people.
Once they turn against him, and his iron grip weakens as his thugs see which way the wind is blowing he’ll be scuttling way. If he’s lucky. Or dead if he’s not.
All those of his ilk behind the Post war Iron Curtain suffered the same demise.
He’ll be gone in 6 months tops




Post Edited (Thu 24 Feb 19:54)
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Thu 24 Feb 20:34

Zelenskyy did win the last election just as his replacement will win the next one. That does not prevent either one them being labelled as stooges of NATO or Russia. Zeelenskyy had no vote worth the name in Donbas area and regarded any elections there as inadmissible; he funded Ukraine troops to go and intimidate his opposition which has been a failure.

I am not so keen to make forecasts as Parboiled, but when Zelenskyy called Putin his ‘enemy’ and called for Ukraine to be part of NATO he was forging his own destiny on the world stage. I remember about 10 years ago UK politicians chortling that ‘Assad is toast.’ He’s still in charge of Syria and most of his grave diggers are now in the House of Lords, doubtless calling for military action against Putin.

sammer
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Thu 24 Feb 20:53

Quote:

sammer, Thu 24 Feb 20:34

Zelenskyy did win the last election just as his replacement will win the next one. That does not prevent either one them being labelled as stooges of NATO or Russia. Zeelenskyy had no vote worth the name in Donbas area and regarded any elections there as inadmissible; he funded Ukraine troops to go and intimidate his opposition which has been a failure.

I am not so keen to make forecasts as Parboiled, but when Zelenskyy called Putin his ‘enemy’ and called for Ukraine to be part of NATO he was forging his own destiny on the world stage. I remember about 10 years ago UK politicians chortling that ‘Assad is toast.’ He’s still in charge of Syria and most of his grave diggers are now in the House of Lords, doubtless calling for military action against Putin.


Maybe he didn`t get much vote in the Donbas area because there are 2 million internal refugees in Ukraine who fled that area. Those left are Putins hired thugs.
My ex wife`s family fled Berdyansk this morning as mortar shells fell around them.
Hitting not military targets as Russia claims but people`s homes.
Another of Russias lies is that Russian speaking Ukrainians have been getting persecuted in East Ukraine. Berdyansk is almost exclusively Russian speaking and have faced no such persecution, same is true of Mariupol along the coast. Yet both these places have been bombarded with Russian missiles throughout today.
The politicians in Ukraine who aspire to be members of the EU or NATO do so because they want to improve Ukraine. Those who look towards Russia are the Communists and Mafia often the same people. They hate that the corruption that was rife throughout Ukraine is not being allowed to go unchallenged.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Thu 24 Feb 21:36

Your equation of Communists with Mafioso tells me where your sympathies lie and they are not with the working people of either Donbas or Ukraine. Let me know your views of that great Ukrainian nationalist, much admired by Zelensky, Stefan Bandera.

If you think NATO is part of the answer to Ukraine’s situation then you are asking the wrong question. Zelensky called Putin an ‘enemy’ which is fighting talk in any language. Now he is being asked to fight. If he thought he had NATO military (as opposed to financial) backing then he was a child and well out of it. To be crass for a moment, Zelensky v Putin is like Peter Grant v Dick Campbell.

sammer
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Thu 24 Feb 22:53

Quote:

sammer, Thu 24 Feb 21:36

Your equation of Communists with Mafioso tells me where your sympathies lie and they are not with the working people of either Donbas or Ukraine. Let me know your views of that great Ukrainian nationalist, much admired by Zelensky, Stefan Bandera.

If you think NATO is part of the answer to Ukraine’s situation then you are asking the wrong question. Zelensky called Putin an ‘enemy’ which is fighting talk in any language. Now he is being asked to fight. If he thought he had NATO military (as opposed to financial) backing then he was a child and well out of it. To be crass for a moment, Zelensky v Putin is like Peter Grant v Dick Campbell.


I have met some of the ex communists in East Ukraine on my visits there. Me equating them with Ukrainian mafia is 100% accurate by their own admission.
They were very pro Russian and were great when out drinking with them. Lovely people actually but corrupt as f**k.
You seriously need to lay off the Russian state TV.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Thu 24 Feb 23:12

We might be comparing oranges and apples. The two areas you mentioned- with Russian speaking majorities- send deputies to the Ukraine parliament. The two areas that reject Ukraine - Donetz and Lugansk- do not send any deputies. A sort of Sinn Fein situation as was. So it’s obvious the situation is different in the two regions. Berdyansk and Mariupol were not intimidated by Zelenesky’s thugs since there was no need: they were already compliant. His thugs did not venture into Donetxz and Luganks because Putin’s thugs were already in place and they backed off. Remember the vast distances in Russia which are beyond a Scot`s imagination until he sees it: something the Wehrmacht found bamboozling in 1941.

Ex-communists are sell outs so I listen to them with one ear only. And I never take a drink from renegades. The Labour Party is full of them and look at the mess we’re in now. Starmer will be on a tank in Vilnius this time next week quoting Ernie Bevin. And Zelensky? Taking the Kerensky train to the west and lecture tours for life. It’s a well paid job.

Putin has effectively destroyed the concept of NATO and it need never have happened. They picked a fight they could not win.

sammer
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Thu 24 Feb 23:22

It`s slightly different to the Sinn Fein situation in the sense that Sinn Fein were not representing Ireland`s imperialist settlers.

They are more akin to the Orange Order.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Thu 24 Feb 23:25

The majority of the 2 million internal refugees in Ukraine are from Lugansk and Donetsk areas. If they had not been forced from their homes then there is every chance they would have voted against Putins puppets in the election.
To compare it to Sinn Fein is a bit disingenuous of you as well. They don`t choose to exclude themselves like Sinn Fein. The rest of Ukraine rejects their participation as they are not legitimate they have forced pround Ukrainians from the area. How can you even suggest they are legitimate?
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Thu 24 Feb 23:33

Also your suggestion that the Ukrainian president is an "great admirer" of Bandera is bullshit.
The people of Lviv wanted to rename the stadium there after Bandera. This was during an election cycle and he was forced to say he supported the renaming of the stadium or face losing votes.
Whether Bandera is a Ukrainian hero or Nazi collaborator is up for debate. He was certainly anti Jewish.
This is more Russian state propaganda from you though.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Thu 24 Feb 23:44

I think the Ireland situation is the best introduction to the events in Ukraine. I accept Wotsits point that Putin is effectively backing, and a fair bit more, the loyalists to his regime as the British did in 1920 and 1969. That will make us feel uncomfortable. But the reputation of the Bandera brigade might make the argument turn head over shoulders. No one ever pursued fascists with the same zeal as the USSR. The West was more easy about allowing them back into positions of influence.

Sadindiefreak was not keen to talk about Zelensky`s hero, Stefan Bandera. The Ukrainian freedom fighters are a motley bunch to be sure. And that`s if they even take up arms. Which I doubt.

Why are Ukrainians `proud` and Russians in the area not so? Are they second class citizens who cannot feel proud? To revert to my default comparison, there were Catholics who were proud to be Irish but not part of the Stormont regime. And for damn good reason. If the Minslk protocols had been enacted properly, like the Sunningdale Agreement of 1973, then a damn sight of bloodshed could have been averted. The politicians are making an bottom of this.

sammer
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Fri 25 Feb 14:06

Nobody pursued fascists with the same zeal as the USSR? Yes they pursued them two thirds of the way across Poland, met them in Brest, shooks hands and then held a victory parade.
The two politicians that didn`t make a bottom of that, at least from their point of view, were Joachim von Ribbentropp and Vyacheslav Molotov. Ribbentropp 1946 found himself at the end of a rope in Nuremburg whereas Molotov lived for another 40 years. To the victors go the spoils I suppose.
Let`s just hope that this latest Russian war of conquest in a westward direction doesn`t lead to what happened the last time they did so in 1939.

We all hate poverty, war, and injustice.
Unlike the rest of you squares.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Sat 26 Feb 08:51

Sammer - I pointed out he is not Zelenskyy`s hero. That`s a misrepresentation of what happened around that.
No Russian speaking people were persecuted in Donbass or Lugansk. Its an absolute fabrication. Who would persecute them when the entire population in the area were Russian speaking.

You are trying to make a big deal out of a Ukrainian nationalist who has been dead for 63 years. Poisoned by the Soviets.
He was anti Jewish during WW2 but so was Stalin leader of the Soviet Union at the time.
As were most in the former Soviet Union.
A dead Ukrainian "fascist" from WW2 has absolutely no bearing on the actions of Putin.

I`ve just read that Zelenskyy is Jewish himself and his family were partially wiped out by the Nazis. This makes your claim even more ridiculous.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Sat 26 Feb 10:02

The working people of Ukraine were very clear about what they thought of Lenin`s plans for them during the revolutionary wars. They did their best to fight off Lenin`s Russian imperialists then and, sadly and tragically, they failed.

Since we are bandying around Ukrainian heroes I get to mention somebody I admire a great deal: Nestor Makhno. A man who died in hiding after Lenin betrayed him and slaughtered his army, which had fought bravely to liberate their homeland from the Tzar, but were not quite the right flavour of socialist (in the sense that they were in fact socialists rather than imperialist authoritarians.)

"Soviets without Communists"

Makhno was also a true internationalist, who didn`t have an anti semitic bone in his body.

Furthermore, Lenin`s successor was famously not great for Ukraine either, or do they still not bring up the holodomor in Russian media?


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"


Post Edited (Sat 26 Feb 10:22)
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend  
Date:   Sat 26 Feb 11:30

The Western leaders have been hoodwinked by Putin for years.
He has been bolder and bolder over the years. Pushing boundaries to see what he could get away with. Georgia, Crimea, Syria are examples.
I’m sure he’d like to reform the USSR? The way it’s going, I wouldn’t put is past him.
Ex KGB and clearly an evil and dangerous bastard




It's bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Sat 26 Feb 12:55

Putin came to power in the ashes of the Shock Doctrine economics that were imposed on Russia after the collapse of the Soviet Union. A bit like how Hitler rose to power after the German Empire fell and Germany was plundered after WWI.

I suppose in this analogy Yelsin is a sort of drunken Weimar Republic.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Sat 26 Feb 16:52

SIF,
I can’t locate the quote regarding Bandera I attributed to Zelensky. I suspect my quote about Bandera being a true Ukraine hero came from a politician called Zelenko and that I attached that to Zelensky after he made ambiguous comments about heroes in Ukraine being different things to different people and referring to Bandera. Zelensky is happy to refer to his Jewish heritage but a little more coy about his soviet roots. His grandfather fought for the Red Army, his great uncles were killed in doing so, and his mother managed to find sanctuary in the old USSR during the Bandera years.

Bandera was a bit more than an anti-semite. He encouraged an extermination programme within Ukraine. Of course Putin is playing up the anti-fascist line to validate his troops being inside Ukraine, but there are elements in the Ukrainian nationalist movement who make it easy for him.

Regarding oppression of Russian peoples within Ukraine, the evidence is all out there. The ban on importing books published in Russia takes cancel culture to a new level. The de-recognition of Russian as an official language (replaced by English) is understandably seen as a provocation. The Donbas area refused to recognise the coup d’etat of 2014 and has been economically strangled as a consequence. One tactic, which should give the NATO supporting Nicola Sturgeon some food for thought, is the non payment of state pensions to peoples in Donetz and Lugansk. I’m sure the English nationalists within the UK will have picked up on that trick. Other moves by Zelensky to suck up to NATO include banning the various versions of the Communist Party which form, banning the hammer and sickle symbol and (not quite so bad as no platforming at the Eurovision Song contest) banning the singing of the Internationale. If that’s democracy it’s not hard to see why many Russians inside Ukraine think it’s not for them. The exodus of Russians from the Donbas region since 2014 speaks for itself.

Raymie,
As regards Putin and Syria, he was actually invited to send troops in by President Assad- unlike the other outside combatants. For a few years Assad, educated in England and once regarded as a friend to the west, was given the deranged dictator treatment by the media. Now he is scarcely mentioned.

Wotsit,
Nestor Makhno has his place in 20th century history as one of the anarchist heroes. He was eventually devoured by the revolutionary forces he helped create but I hope history will be kind to him.

sammer
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Sat 26 Feb 18:25

🇺🇦 Ukraine seem to be making a mark on the Russians, not having it their own way!
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Sat 26 Feb 19:20

Chelsea`s Russian owner Roman Abramovich says he is "giving trustees of Chelsea`s charitable foundation the stewardship and care" of the club.

The move has been made amid Russia`s invasion of Ukraine.

The decision comes a day before Chelsea play Liverpool in the League Cup final.

"I have always taken decisions with the club`s best interest at heart," said Abramovich in a statement.

"I remain committed to these values."

The statement continued: "That is why I am today giving trustees of Chelsea`s charitable Foundation the stewardship and care of Chelsea FC.

"I believe that currently they are in the best position to look after the interests of the club, players, staff, and fans."

We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Sat 26 Feb 20:34

Another interesting snippet of info!🤔😲

"Biological Threat Reduction Program - U.S. Embassy in Ukraine" https://ua.usembassy.gov/embassy/kyiv/sections-offices/defense-threat-reduction-office/biological-threat-reduction-program/
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy  
Date:   Sun 27 Feb 00:43

Sammer - I`m actually doing a Russia-Ukraine-Belarus History-Politics course at the moment so its strange that all this has kicked off when it has. The arguments about Russian speakers being oppressed in Ukraine aint exactly as black and white are you`re painting it. In Ukraine you`ll hear Russian and Ukrainian used interchangeably in conversation and most of the population are bi-lingual. Ukrainian and Russian have very similar grammar and about 50% of the same vocabulary with the other 50% being more Polish-influenced - Ukrainian is spoken more in the West and North while the South and East become gradually more Russian. Generally speaking, Russian is a bit more prevalent in Urban centres and Ukrainian in the rural areas.

Since the Russian annexation of Crimea and the Donbas conflict, even the ethnic Russians have become more anti-Russia and pro-Ukrainian because of Russia appearing more aggressive - below is the link to a paper by a guy called Kulyk who is considered the "go to guy" on this matter. If this wasn`t the case, then there wouldn`t be the same resistance we`re seeing in Kiev as there is further East.

The language laws basically stated that Ukrainian was to be the primary language of instruction in schools across Ukraine, the language of government etc but there are provisions for Russian language to be taught as well as other minority languages. Remember the "ethnic Russians" are only 17% of the population and "Russian native speakers" compose about 30% of the population. Under Brezhnev, Russification policies mean that there are actually a number of ethnic Ukrainians who now speak Russian as their first language. The language issue has become highly politicised and a lot of that came about because Yanukovych`s Party of Regions was dropping in the opinion polls and introduced a bill to give local governments autonomy over language laws, which oddly enough they didn`t like when the Hungarian speakers in the west asked for equal status with Russian. The whole thing is about Putin loyalists keeping a foothold in Ukraine.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09668136.2016.1174980

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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: ipswichpar  
Date:   Sun 27 Feb 13:55

So Putin has put his nuclear soldiers on high alert. Splendid.

Even his army generals looked like he had lost the plot.

Hopefully someone takes him out very soon.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sun 27 Feb 14:27

I hanker for those days when we used to shake our heads at the Americans for electing an idiot like Trump. At least their political system kept him in check. No such balances in Russia`s dictatorship. At least the mask has now well and truly slipped from this thuggish regime.

We all hate poverty, war, and injustice.
Unlike the rest of you squares.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: aaaaaaaaaargh  
Date:   Sun 27 Feb 19:04

Hopefully the people around Putin will stop him from pressing the nuclear button, but their performances last week didn`t really fill me with confidence.

Putin`s behaviour is a lot like Hitler`s in 42, so hopefully his own bunker moment is just around the corner.

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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Parboiled  
Date:   Mon 28 Feb 08:11

I remain hopeful that Putin’s downfall will be sparked off by disaffection of his own folk. Even the older generations’ stoicism is being tested now, emerging news film of protestors being hustled into police vans shows that.
The young will access their own truth despite every effort to blank out social media.
Discontent will grow. They can’t arrest them all. Maybe my earlier estimate of 6 months left for this dictatorship will turn out a lot shorter than that.

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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: parsmad68  
Date:   Mon 28 Feb 11:19

Germany’s stance on the Swift discussion is just appalling. One thing Trump was correct about was chastising Germany on their stance of where they obtain their natural resources from. Now it is in their interests not to implement any sanctions on this. Disgusting. Germany has been very much suckered by Russia and now will pay the consequences. A huge ramp in defence spending I also notice by Germany also.
I think even if the Ukraine thing settles down then it is a long way from finished.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Mon 28 Feb 11:44

Germany came around eventually didn`t they? Every sanction that the EU had imposed is only done because Germany allow it.

We all hate poverty, war, and injustice.
Unlike the rest of you squares.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: parsmad68  
Date:   Mon 28 Feb 11:57

They did with “targeted and functional” disconnection. That means one rule for them and another for others. I wouldn’t trust a German with any use of such open language. It means they support but I think the devil is always in the detail.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: buffy  
Date:   Mon 28 Feb 13:59

My current company Bosch have donated €1M for humanitarian aid to Ukraine. The money will go to the German Red Cross, for everyone in Ukraine who needs it.
Our employees in Kyiv are thankfully safe, and most have left the city.

Our facilities in Poland, Romania, Slovakia and Hungary are being made available as refugee shelters.

buffysbuns.wordpress.com
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Parboiled  
Date:   Mon 28 Feb 14:02

Scot Gov donating £4m to Ukraine, yet foreign aid is a totally reserved issue, so it will need to come from some other budget.
A week is a long time in politics …when free Covid testing ended last week they said they had no funds to carry on with it!

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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: aaaaaaaaaargh  
Date:   Mon 28 Feb 15:38

Just to put it into perspective, if the government had spent this money on keeping covid tests free then it would have lasted around 18 hours.

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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend  
Date:   Wed 2 Mar 11:48

Sammer, I would be interested to understand what Russian TV is saying about the war from a man in the know?

Are the younger ones having access to the real information via the internet, friends outside of Russia etc and how is this playing out in terms of protests etc?




It's bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Wed 2 Mar 16:13

Article detailing how Russian media is portraying thr event. Depressing but not unexpected.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60571737

We all hate poverty, war, and injustice.
Unlike the rest of you squares.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend  
Date:   Wed 2 Mar 16:39

I`m guessing Sammer has been blocked from coming onto dot net?




It's bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Wed 2 Mar 17:02

Dotnet well known as a fake news outlet that spreads lies about Russia.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Wed 2 Mar 17:24

What’s actually happening in Ukraine is as unclear to me as to you. War reporting is notoriously unreliable: the only guides we have are territory occupied and, unfortunately, casualties. Casualty figures are always massaged and the Russian government has said it will not disclose its own figures until the conflict is over; that at least will save some army PR man a bit of trouble.

The general approach on Russian TV is what I recall from the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq on UK media. Professional soldiers are hunting down insurgents and surgical strikes are being mounted. The fascist element within the Ukrainian opposition is focused on for obvious reasons- every Ukrainian holding a weapon is a Bandera supporter just as every Afghan was a Taliban. Last night there was a TV report of Bandera supporters looting houses as they ran from Kharkiv: the eyewitnesses were Ukrainian householders and since guns are being dished out to the likes of Mad Dog McGlinchey and Mad Dog Johnny Adair the report might have been true. The overall approach is that the Russian troops are there to demilitarise the Ukraine and that all the weapons supplied by the West since 2014 will be recovered.

A recent poll placed Putin’s approval ratings at around 70% but as Goering eloquently explained at Nuremburg, that always happens when an army is moving forward. Most Russians know of the negative treatment they receive in western media which long predates this present situation. The country has been under sanctions since 1917- with a brief respite from 1941-1945- so tends to shrug off threats of isolation. The story of the Leningrad siege (Putin’s home city) is part of every Russian boy or girl’s history so the idea of sacrifice is easy to appeal to. Stories appearing in the Daily Express about Russian troops being drunk, deserting, and sobbing for their mothers have to be seen in that context. Older Russians who remember the gangster capitalism of the 1990s under Yeltsin which spawned the oligarch class- many of who now live in London of course- recognize the Ukrainian leadership as the same kidney and have little sympathy for their plight.

I spoke to a woman yesterday who mentioned the fact that she was Ukrainian but not in relation to what is happening in her home country. It was just a matter of fact comment made in mixed company of Russians, Uzbekis and Chechneyans and no one paid it any heed. However attitudes can change very quickly in any conflict.

sammer
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: ipswichpar  
Date:   Wed 2 Mar 19:44

Perfectly clear to reasonable people what`s happening sammer. Absolute nonsense to suggest otherwise.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: back oh the net  
Date:   Wed 2 Mar 21:14

How many more hundreds of innocent men women and children need to die in this “special military operation” before the west actually grow a set and get involved? Not sure if the UN big wigs realise that we have been here before

Come on ye pars ⚽️
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Wed 2 Mar 22:39

I was asked about Russian media reports so I restricted my comments to that. Which is what I would prefer. However I am invited beyond that sphere.

If you want my opinions they will come freely. I recall Ispwisch Par saying during the Cornovirus hysteria that one death was one too many. He was a Lockdown fanatic in the name of democracy. Yet recently he has been calling for the assassination of Vladimir Putin. Death is negotioable in his universe it would seem. If he ever met Vladimir Putin I doubt he would even come close to his desire, but if that fantasy sustains him of an evening so be it. If Putin died tomorrow the political scene remains the same. Nothing would change. Lavrov may be more hard line than Putin.

Putin has just destroyed NATO. It longer exists as a concept. The Americans will not fight a rival nuclear power in Europe. Ben Wallace of the Scots Guards, a regiment twice booted out of Archangel by the Bolsheviks in 1918. has acknowledged the same. Now NATO are sending troops to Estonia and Norway when the fight is in Ukraine. Wrong theatre of war if you ate serious. Had Ukraine actually ever joined NATO nothing would be different. Not one American or British life is worth the Ukrainian desire to be part of NATO no matter how loud Zelensky shouts. Zelensky was offered independence outwith NATO by Macron and rejected it. He thinks that ideal is worth Ukrainian blood. If he ever goes down on his sword like Allende in Chile I will be astonished. He’ll end up in California most like when others are dying. His family have already left by all accounts. It won’t be his blood.

Yet NATO was a good enough concept for most of its time: it stopped the major European powers fighting amongst themselves. My life was war free partly because of it. My parents and grandparents were so happy that never again a European war. They regarded that as part of their legacy to us and that the politicians had to keep it that way.

As for Putin, any Russian leader who sold out the Crimea to the West would be dead. This was understood even by US cold warriors such as Kennan and that greatest mass murderer of the 29th century, Henry Kissinger. They loathed the USSR of course but they warned against Zelenskeyism and they were ignored. Which is where we are now.

The Minsk accords are there so let’s stop military crap and start negotiating them. Otherwise it’s Sunningdale for slow learners. Or wargmongers. Or thumbsuckers.

sammer
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: ipswichpar  
Date:   Wed 2 Mar 23:29

You misquote me in your further defense of avoidable death.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Thu 3 Mar 00:10

I may have done so but offer little in the way of apology. You were one of the most astringent supporters of lockdown and its associated restrictions of freedoms as was ever on this sight. In fact it would not be beyond the bounds of rhetoric to call you the Lord of Lockdown for DAFC.

Since then the Lockdown argument has been discredited by a number of studies. It was crap from day one as nay decent citizen could see. Locking down healthy people on suspicion is a prelude to war. The Covid scare seems to have vanisihed in a puff of smoke.

Since then , having been discredited on your own home ground as it were, (which presumably encompasses Mildenhall US airbase and US Lakenheath) you are turning your attentions to Ukraine.

sammer
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Thu 3 Mar 07:21

Quote:

sammer, Thu 3 Mar 00:10

I may have done so but offer little in the way of apology. You were one of the most astringent supporters of lockdown and its associated restrictions of freedoms as was ever on this sight. In fact it would not be beyond the bounds of rhetoric to call you the Lord of Lockdown for DAFC.

Since then the Lockdown argument has been discredited by a number of studies. It was crap from day one as nay decent citizen could see. Locking down healthy people on suspicion is a prelude to war. The Covid scare seems to have vanisihed in a puff of smoke.

Since then , having been discredited on your own home ground as it were, (which presumably encompasses Mildenhall US airbase and US Lakenheath) you are turning your attentions to Ukraine.


WTF does someone living near Mildenhall or Lakenheath have to do with their views on Lockdown.
Just because someone lives near something doesn`t mean that place has to have any influence over their opinions.
Although I can see how you maybe came to that conclusion since you are in Russia and your opinions on Ukraine mirror Russian State propaganda.


Can you supply links to some of the studies that you claim have discredited lockdown.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Thu 3 Mar 09:35

The Russian education ministry has announced that schools are to teach their children `why the liberation mission in Ukraine was a necessity`. No doubt afterwards they`ll all burst into a rendition of Tomorrow Belongs To Me.

We all hate poverty, war, and injustice.
Unlike the rest of you squares.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: EastEndBoy  
Date:   Thu 3 Mar 10:07

All of these arguments seem to be based, ultimately, on the premise that we here in the west are the good guys and those nasty Russians are the bad guys.

Make no mistake. There`s no good guys and bad guys here. Only bad guys.

...ken?
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Thu 3 Mar 10:35

Nah it`s not the West who have tanks rolling across Ukraine. It`s not the West who are shelling Ukrainian cities and towns. It`s not West who are reigning down missiles and bombs into civilian areas. Five hundred thousand women and children aren`t fleeing to the West because we are the bad guys.
You know how I know we aren`t the bad guys? Because right now me or you EastEndBoy could head over to Edinburgh or London and stand outside Holyrood or Westminster and vocally announce that we are indeed the bad guys. We won`t be arrested. In Russia if you go out and say something outside the Kremlin as horrific as `stop the war` you`ll get arrested.

We all hate poverty, war, and injustice.
Unlike the rest of you squares.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Thu 3 Mar 10:57

Quote:

The One Who Knocks, Thu 3 Mar 10:35

Nah it`s not the West who have tanks rolling across Ukraine. It`s not the West who are shelling Ukrainian cities and towns. It`s not West who are reigning down missiles and bombs into civilian areas. Five hundred thousand women and children aren`t fleeing to the West because we are the bad guys.
You know how I know we aren`t the bad guys? Because right now me or you EastEndBoy could head over to Edinburgh or London and stand outside Holyrood or Westminster and vocally announce that we are indeed the bad guys. We won`t be arrested. In Russia if you go out and say something outside the Kremlin as horrific as `stop the war` you`ll get arrested.


The Russians introduced a new law yesterday about protests against the war that will see people jailed for 20 years.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend  
Date:   Thu 3 Mar 11:22

I`m not sure how you can link Covid lockdowns and and invasion of a neighbouring country, Sammer?

You might not be privy to what is actually going on in Ukraine, but it does seem that you are condoning or justifying what action Putin is taking? Apologies if I have this wrong?

I think if I were in your shoes, I`d be ashamed of what my adopted country was doing to innocent men, women and children?




It's bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Thu 3 Mar 11:36

We should have more sympathy for our Russian brothers and sisters.

Most of us can remember what it was like to be under the yoke of full on propaganda from the first decade of this century. Remember the Dixie Chicks? Remember the vitriol directed at anybody who even dared question the invasion of Afghanistan?

Whilst there was more dissent to Iraq pre invasion, once the invasion started we were mostly all in lockstep to support "our boys" - where do you think we got that idea from? Did we all suddenly have the same revaluation of our principles? Was the sudden appearance of a sort of "poppy fundamentalism" at the time a mere coincidence? Pre Iraq war people were free to choose for themselves whether or not they promoted the charity, after you were hounded for that choice and football clubs had to print special strips for the week. That, right there, was us succumbing to clever and targeted propaganda.

The Russian people are no different to us.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Parboiled  
Date:   Thu 3 Mar 11:39

“ people jailed for twenty years”

Aye sadindiefreak, judging by the ages of some of the kids they are hustling into cop vans some of them will be about thirty when they get out!

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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend  
Date:   Thu 3 Mar 11:54

In simplistic terms, Wotsit, two wrongs don`t make a right.

The Iraq invasion was justified due to their alleged haul of WMD. We all know that was largely fabricated.

Afghanistan - are the Afghan people in a better place now? Highly debatable.




It's bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Thu 3 Mar 12:06

I`m not saying that at all Raymie, I suggest that you read it again.

I`m saying that we shouldn`t criticise the Russian people for falling for the propaganda, that`s all.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: parsfan  
Date:   Thu 3 Mar 12:17

Quote:

Wotsit, Thu 3 Mar 12:06

I`m not saying that at all Raymie, I suggest that you read it again.

I`m saying that we shouldn`t criticise the Russian people for falling for the propaganda, that`s all.


What criticism has there been of the Russian people? I`ve seen, and have, plenty of respect for those out on the streets protesting...not aware of any criticism.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The universe is ruled by chance and indifference



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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend  
Date:   Thu 3 Mar 12:25

Understood, Wotsit. I appreciate that many Russian citizens only have access to state controlled media and therefore, will be heavily influenced by that.




It's bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Thu 3 Mar 12:35

Quote:

parsfan, Thu 3 Mar 12:17

Quote:

Wotsit, Thu 3 Mar 12:06

I`m not saying that at all Raymie, I suggest that you read it again.

I`m saying that we shouldn`t criticise the Russian people for falling for the propaganda, that`s all.


What criticism has there been of the Russian people? I`ve seen, and have, plenty of respect for those out on the streets protesting...not aware of any criticism.


I`ve seen snide comments about how so and so must have been watching Russian media etc parsfan. I`m also noticing that there`s a lot of sympathy but not much empathy. It`s like folk are looking down from a superior position without remembering that we are just as gullible sometimes.

Cheers Raymie, last thing I wanted was to derail this thread into a debate over the justifications for the Iraq war.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"


Post Edited (Thu 03 Mar 12:37)
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: aaaaaaaaaargh  
Date:   Thu 3 Mar 12:36

Unfortunately I think all of this is going to continue until Putin is eating dandelions by the roots, as they say in France.

Maybe one of his bodyguards will do him in, or maybe he will have a steroid-induced heart attack. My fingers are firmly crossed.

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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Thu 3 Mar 12:57

That`s the problem with propaganda. Nobody thinks they are the ones being influenced. `Everyone else is being led astray but not me, my opinion is my own because I`m a free thinker`.
I include myself in that by they way, how much I am influenced by state propaganda I do not know.
Been reading some articles recently about the number of far right and sometimes out and out white supremacist groups across Europe and North America that look up to and admire Putin`s Russia. Apparently they see Putin`s Russia as `the last great white hope`. It certainly has given me greater cause for concern but then maybe these cretins aren`t pro Putin and it is just propaganda designed to create further anti Putin sentiment. I don`t think it is propaganda though, I actually think it speaks volumes. Then again is that what they want me to think?

We all hate poverty, war, and injustice.
Unlike the rest of you squares.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: ipswichpar  
Date:   Thu 3 Mar 17:32

We clearly don`t agree on much sammer, for which I`m very very glad.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Thu 3 Mar 20:34

Fair enough Ipswich Par. War brings out the worst in people so, having re-read my posts from yesterday, I think they were unnecessarily aggressive and personal. I hope we can continue to agree to disagree on various topics.

Raymie, I hope I can call you as a character witness if the Russian authorities arrest me for undermining the war effort. As I said in my very first post I recognise the right of Ukraine to exist as an independent country. I also recognise the right of Russia to defend itself against threats near to its borders. The Minsk accords were the best mechanism for keeping the peace in the area and were not being applied as promised. However a military response to that problem is unlikely to produce anything better than what was there before. And that’s after we count the number of dead.

There are talks arranged for today but it’s hard to be optimistic. Putin has set his course and is unlikely to negotiate when his army is advancing. Zelensky cannot sign up for anything less than he was demanding just over a week ago without being discredited.

sammer
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: ipswichpar  
Date:   Thu 3 Mar 21:02

Absolutely sammer. I wish you and yours well.

All I generally want is for folk to do their best for themselves and others.

None of us are here for very long in the grand scheme of things so we`re best filling those days with good times.

Edited to add...I've got wide with you a few times before. Sorry. I'll not do it again.

Take care

Ipswich

Post Edited (Thu 03 Mar 21:04)
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: parsfan  
Date:   Thu 3 Mar 22:40

Quote:

sadindiefreak, Thu 3 Mar 10:57

The Russians introduced a new law yesterday about protests against the war that will see people jailed for 20 years.


And 15 years just for calling it a war.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The universe is ruled by chance and indifference



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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend  
Date:   Fri 4 Mar 06:36

Sammer, I fear ordinary Russian people’s lives are about to change also ?
Media outlets banned or curtailed? Protestors imprisoned? The Rouble worthless? Citizens banned from leaving the country?

Meanwhile, Russia has recklessly attacked a nuclear power station in the south.
Heavy bombardment of major Ukraine cities intensifies. It’s clear Putin is trying to bring Ukraine and it’s people to their knees by denying them power and food?

A truly shameful regime and a truly shameful war




It's bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983


Post Edited (Fri 04 Mar 06:37)
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Parboiled  
Date:   Fri 4 Mar 10:18

Moscow legislates 15 years imprisonment for spreading disinformation about Russian forces, terms like war, invasion, banned.

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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Fri 4 Mar 13:54

It was quite chilling watching Sergei Lavrov being interviewed on Channel 4 last night, accusing the western media of being in the pocket of western politicians and reporting accordingly re strikes on civilian targets etc. The obvious question was `How is the `special operation` being reported in Russia?` but it wasn`t asked for some reason.

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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Fri 4 Mar 14:08

Even if the Ukrainian government were to collapse or surrender, the Russians will have to take most cities building by booby-trapped building. Putin must know that by now?


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: back oh the net  
Date:   Fri 4 Mar 14:46

Aye if he makes it that far….nostradameus predicted a war in Europe by 2022 and that war would only end when the dictator is killed….he’s been half right so far

Come on ye pars ⚽️
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Fri 4 Mar 14:53

"I want to emphasize once again. We have no ill intentions towards our neighbors, and I would advise them not to escalate the situation, nor to introduce any restrictions."

"All our actions, if they arise, always arise exclusively in response to unfriendly actions against Russia,"

"We do not see any need here to escalate the situation or worsen our relations."

Those are Putin`s latest comments. Does this sound like a leader who is in touch with the reality of the situation. Are all his advisors so afraid that nobody is telling him the way things are?
BackoftheNet, Nostradamus quatrains, or predictions if you prefer, are so ambiguous you can apply them to almost any event. Pure nonsense.

We all hate poverty, war, and injustice.
Unlike the rest of you squares.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Fri 4 Mar 16:00

Putin is clutching someone by the neck whilst claiming he`s not an advocate of violence.

If they`re acting in retaliation then can he explain what Ukraine are doing? Are their forces infiltrating Russia?
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Parboiled  
Date:   Sat 5 Mar 14:43

Russia bans Facebook, Twitter, BBC and other outside broadcasters. The Nazis would arrest anyone in occupied Europe listening into the Beeb, but they still did it. Apart from letting them know how the war was going, it was a means of getting coded messages to the resistance.
Just saw a Russian exile say this crackdown doesn’t affect the older generation much, or the poor, it’s the younger ones Putin will be concerned about.

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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: ipswichpar  
Date:   Sun 6 Mar 13:57

Bombing civilians for second day in a row after agreeing they can leave under safe passage.

Can`t find the words.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Sun 6 Mar 20:09

Quote:

ipswichpar, Sun 6 Mar 13:57

Bombing civilians for second day in a row after agreeing they can leave under safe passage.

Can`t find the words.


The safe passage is a double edged sword, Ipswich. Remember Aleppo? Once those who want to and are able to leave have left, Putin will regard those who are left behind as wanting to engage in open warfare and will order his armed forces to reduce these Ukrainian cities to rubble.

Eta. Putin stated that Russians and Ukrainians are one people and one nation - so how come he's trying to exterminate them?



Not your average Sunday League player.


Post Edited (Sun 06 Mar 20:11)
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend  
Date:   Sun 6 Mar 22:09

Evil bastard. Hope he dies a long and painful death?




It's bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983


Post Edited (Sun 06 Mar 22:09)
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: da_no_1  
Date:   Sun 6 Mar 23:11

I must be completely dense but I just don`t understand why you want to take over a country that you`ve just reduced to rubble.

"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Mon 7 Mar 01:05

Far from it. If the intention was to reduce all cities to rubble then that could be done rather quickly through air superiority. These peace corridors, as GG indicated, are an attempt to filter out the citizens who wish to escape bombardment and those prepared to resist. I’ve read these reports of fleeing civilians being attacked but can see no advantage in such an outrageous piece of deceit from a Russian military perspective. A murderous trick like that could only be pulled once and if, as Zelensky claims, the intention is to obliterate the Ukrainian people then it would be simpler just to bomb the entire area in the first place.

As you can see I’m still writing from Moscow although according to UK military intelligence, duly reported in The Telegraph newspaper, I was due to be interned as an alien under Russian martial law on Friday. ‘Collar the lot’ as Churchill said about Italians within the UK community back in the day. Well, we’ve not been collared yet. The British government has recommended all non essential Brits should leave the country and I certainly come into that category but their stated reason- economic privation- is a feeble attempt to make out that sanctions are having an impact. Sir John Sawyer, former head of MI6, explained the limitations of sanctions last week when addressing students at Oxford which can be seen on youtube. The money men, whether they be of the Russian or British variety, need their money to flow more than I do.

I see no winner here at all. Putin can take military control of Ukraine but the further west he moves the more resistance he will encounter. The west of Ukraine has been as anti-Russian over the last century as Ireland was for the UK in times past. These are not a people who can either be subdued or be won over. Zelensky’s only hope is for western intervention, a policy which was attempted by his ancestors Bandera and Stetsko post war. They were funded and supported by the CIA, the better to undermine the USSR, but dropped when it became clear that these patriots considered a nuclear rubble Europe was a price worth paying for Ukrainian independence.

In the past people like U Thant or Kofi Annan would have had the clout to arrange a ceasefire and bang heads together across a table. We need something like that now

sammer
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Mon 7 Mar 05:55

Quote:

da_no_1, Sun 6 Mar 23:11

I must be completely dense but I just don`t understand why you want to take over a country that you`ve just reduced to rubble.


You`re not "completely dense", da, far from it. Putin clearly won`t reduce the whole country to rubble, nor did I suggest that. He certainly reduced Aleppo to rubble after a temporary cease fire allowed those who wanted to leave the city to do so. Of course Aleppo is much further away from Russia than Ukraine and Putin`s armed forces were fighting Muslims, so the same outcome may not be reached in Mariupol and other Ukranian cities in the south east, but nor can it be totally ruled out at this stage.



Not your average Sunday League player.


Post Edited (Mon 07 Mar 09:47)
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: ipswichpar  
Date:   Mon 7 Mar 07:33

Not sure we need more Peacekeepers. I think we just need fewer invading, murderous ********.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Mon 7 Mar 09:26

Was reading what effect this "war" was having on the younger generation and how parents were trying to shield them from the worst "forecasts"
I would say that the mental health of these youngsters will be severely affected and even adults will have there own problems.
I can only remember what state I was in during the Cuban crisis, especially when at the end of the BBC news they said that they "hoped to see us tomorrow "

Give your kids/grandkids a cuddle, they hear the same things as you!
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: parsfan  
Date:   Mon 7 Mar 13:32

Inspiring and humbling to see so many protesting yesterday in St Petersburg and elsewhere given the Draconian new laws Putin`s brought in. There`s a chance he might unite the people of Ukraine and Russia after all - just not in the way he intended.

Also good to see Belarusians joining the fight against him.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The universe is ruled by chance and indifference



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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Mon 7 Mar 17:13

Wrong one!

Post Edited (Mon 07 Mar 22:18)
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: red-star-par  
Date:   Mon 7 Mar 21:41

Not sure what that video has to do with the price of petrol Lochgelly Albert
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Mon 7 Mar 22:27

https://sway.office.com/FpHxKqbnmfYlRMj3

Post Edited (Mon 07 Mar 22:31)
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Wed 9 Mar 10:21

Europe has dodged a bullet big style with Trump losing the last election. Had Putin`s man not been turfed out then I shudder to think what Russia would do next. No way Trump would have taken a tough stance against Russian wars of conquest when so many of his far right base admire Putin.

We all hate poverty, war, and injustice.
Unlike the rest of you squares.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Wed 9 Mar 14:39

TBF to Trump, at least he could almost string a sentence together...almost.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Wed 9 Mar 16:13

Russia now bombing a children`s hospital.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: P  
Date:   Wed 9 Mar 18:23

Quote:

moviescot, Wed 9 Mar 16:13

Russia now bombing a children`s hospital.


And a maternity ward




Post Edited (Wed 09 Mar 18:23)
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Wed 9 Mar 18:33

Where will this end ? .. all those poor innocent people and children .. :-((

We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Wed 9 Mar 18:47

Quote:

Buspasspar, Wed 9 Mar 18:33

Where will this end ? .. all those poor innocent people and children .. :-((


That`s just it. The Russians do not give a fig who they kill and murder in the conflict. Pure scum.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend  
Date:   Wed 9 Mar 19:13

It’s only going to end when the Russian people storm the Kremlin, much like the Capitol Hill riots over a year ago




It's bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Wed 9 Mar 20:02

The difference is you`re less likely to be shot or "have a nasty fall" in the US in comparison to Russia.

This war will only end when rich people want it to end.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: parsfan  
Date:   Wed 9 Mar 20:04

Quote:

Raymie the Legend, Wed 9 Mar 19:13

It’s only going to end when the Russian people storm the Kremlin, much like the Capitol Hill riots over a year ago


...but more successfully.

I thought you were going to say 1917.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The universe is ruled by chance and indifference



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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Thu 10 Mar 08:23

Paper talk about potential chemical weapons now !!! ..and power shut down in Chernobyl so the reactors cant keep cool and will potentially leak

We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Thu 10 Mar 12:31

So it’s all very well saying we don’t want a war and stay standing at the sidelines…

But at what point do we decide enough is enough - when he target bombs innocent civilians? when he uses WMDs/chemical weapons? When he potentially causes another nuclear disaster? When he starves the civilian population without showing aid? When he threatens the next country?

Post Edited (Thu 10 Mar 16:12)
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Thu 10 Mar 16:38

Prince William repeating it the old ahistorical white settler spiel at the Ukrainian Cultural Centre today.

Apparently he is used to wars in Africa and Asia but not in Europe (which is having its third world war in less than a century, "lest we forget".)


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Thu 10 Mar 17:27

Topic Originator: DBP
Date: Thu 10 Mar 12:31

So it’s all very well saying we don’t want a war and stay standing at the sidelines…

But at what point do we decide enough is enough - when he target bombs innocent civilians? when he uses WMDs/chemical weapons? When he potentially causes another nuclear disaster? When he starves the civilian population without showing aid? When he threatens the next country?


Good post DPB If some reports are correct that Putin is dying from cancer .. then it would appear he is hell bent on taking as many of us with him as possible .. The West appear to be afraid right now as the intelligence would suggest he WILL press the button .. So many millions in Ukraine will have to be killed and starved to save Many Many more millions :-((

We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Thu 10 Mar 18:56

One thing that never changes is the low value some politicians in pursuit of their aims put on human life.

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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: parsfan  
Date:   Thu 10 Mar 19:59

The Russian embassy in Dublin is in Orwell Road, the council have voted to change the name to Independent Ukraine Road.

I also liked the guy in Lisbon who lit up the Russian embassy there as a Ukrainian flag with a projector.

It won`t help any on the ground in Ukraine itself, but great shows of solidarity.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The universe is ruled by chance and indifference



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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Parboiled  
Date:   Fri 11 Mar 12:14

Pity Dublin couldn’t have done something like that when the German Embassy was there all through WW2. Or at least their PM could have skived off signing the book of condolence in that building when Hitler shot himself.

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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Fri 11 Mar 12:41

A harsh reminder although an accurate one.

However maybe Russia and Ukraine could learn something from the Ireland/UK relationship. Neutrality for the Republic of Ireland has worked out well enough over the last century. The decision by the UK to recognise what we call Ulster as a part of the UK remains controversial and has sparked a low level civil war in our lifetime. But maybe the alternative was worse. And despite his first instincts when war was declared, Churchill did not invade what was then called Eire to secure his borders.

sammer
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Fri 11 Mar 12:45

Britain got more out of Ireland`s neutrality during WWII than the Nazis did, despite the fact that Ireland was essentially culturally fascist at the time.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Fri 11 Mar 16:49

They left their lights on during the blackout wotsit to help guide the German Bombers :-((

We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Parboiled  
Date:   Fri 11 Mar 17:19

Many brave Irish soldiers deserted to join the British army, but were harshly treated on return to their homeland, banned from government employment and other sanctions. The Irish community in the UK of course did their bit like everyone else, in uniform or civilian war effort
That condolence gesture by de Valera, a diplomatic nicety, was roundly condemned worldwide. The death camp horrors had already started to be reported, and there was much anger in the USA in particular as the sons of Irish/American families were still fighting and dying in Europe and of course in the Pacific.
Appallingly crass misjudgement.

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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Fri 11 Mar 17:34

Meanwhile in 2022…
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: parsfan  
Date:   Fri 11 Mar 17:44

...the internet in Russia might be getting switched off tomorrow. The young folk there, like here, don`t pay much attention to traditional media and are receiving a more balanced view of the war, not just Putin`s lies. Can`t have that now can we?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The universe is ruled by chance and indifference



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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Fri 11 Mar 17:53

Quote:

parsfan, Fri 11 Mar 17:44

...the internet in Russia might be getting switched off tomorrow. The young folk there, like here, don`t pay much attention to traditional media and are receiving a more balanced view of the war, not just Putin`s lies. Can`t have that now can we?


Are we loosing Sammer or does he have 5G?
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Fri 11 Mar 18:44

Cut the phone lines. Stop the spread of misinformation. That is how they will stop the people from undermining the fruits of their own labour.

We all hate poverty, war, and injustice.
Unlike the rest of you squares.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: widtink  
Date:   Fri 11 Mar 18:59

^^^^
Chernobyl fan eh? 🤣


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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Fri 11 Mar 19:10

I figured I could count on you Widders 😉
In all seriousness though the Americans are saying they believe the Russians are preparing to initiate an escalation of their war of conquest. The Americans have called out every move the Russians have made in advance of them doing it so this is a serious concern.

We all hate poverty, war, and injustice.
Unlike the rest of you squares.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Fri 11 Mar 19:37

Google have cut off RT so I have to use another browser to get my news from them. Interestingly, RT has been much cooler on the Ukraine than you might have imagined. It does report the government line on developments but not with the jingoism I pick up on UK media. There is very little official news provided from the Russian front line military and most of the western media are now in Lviv, a fair bit away from Kiev. Until Reuters confirm a story I tend to reserve judgment. If Assange was still out and about he might be able to obtain a few wikileaks from both sides, but he is sitting in Belmarsh prison.

The Russian intention to ban social media such as Facebook was made very easy when an internal memo surfaced suggesting that hate crime was OK so long as it was directed at Russians. The liberal Guardian had a BTL commentator last week suggesting Putin’s daughter should be kidnapped and held ransom. It wasn’t moderated so far as I could make out. MacDonalds are still serving their burgers and skinny chips here until May so we won’t starve.

I’m retired so I have time to go trawling through the internet to find articles. A little to my surprise, some of the best analysis has come from American sources.

sammer
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Fri 11 Mar 19:57

Quote:

sammer, Fri 11 Mar 19:37

Google have cut off RT so I have to use another browser to get my news from them. Interestingly, RT has been much cooler on the Ukraine than you might have imagined. It does report the government line on developments but not with the jingoism I pick up on UK media. There is very little official news provided from the Russian front line military and most of the western media are now in Lviv, a fair bit away from Kiev. Until Reuters confirm a story I tend to reserve judgment. If Assange was still out and about he might be able to obtain a few wikileaks from both sides, but he is sitting in Belmarsh prison.

The Russian intention to ban social media such as Facebook was made very easy when an internal memo surfaced suggesting that hate crime was OK so long as it was directed at Russians. The liberal Guardian had a BTL commentator last week suggesting Putin’s daughter should be kidnapped and held ransom. It wasn’t moderated so far as I could make out. MacDonalds are still serving their burgers and skinny chips here until May so we won’t starve.

I’m retired so I have time to go trawling through the internet to find articles. A little to my surprise, some of the best analysis has come from American sources.


Hate crime was deemed ok provided it was aimed at Russian soldiers not Russians.

BBC are still reporting from Kviv not Lviv. Last night they even had a report from Mariupol with a reporter in the ground.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Fri 11 Mar 21:09

Reuters is as reliable a news agency as I have found.

Calls for violence
‘’Internal emails seen by Reuters on Thursday revealed a temporary change to Meta`s hate speech policy that would allow Facebook and Instagram users in some countries to call for violence against Russians and Russian soldiers in the context of the Ukraine invasion.
According to the emails, the social media company is also temporarily allowing some posts that call for death to Russian President Vladimir Putin or Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko in countries including Russia, Ukraine and Poland, according to internal emails to its content moderators’’

An Orwellian two minute hate has to have boundaries I suppose. If some Russian soldier is killed when off duty, Lee Rigby style, then Meta can always claim the Ian Paisley defence that it is not responsible for those who act upon its urgings.

I did say that most, not all reporters, have decamped to Lviv. There was a man called Lima Lopez doing personal videos from Kiev at the start of all this, not particularly taking the western media position, and he seems to have disappeared.

sammer
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: parsfan  
Date:   Fri 11 Mar 21:34

Dearie me, is that three or four generals KIA now? Then there`s the ones getting sacked. Just as well it`s all going to plan.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The universe is ruled by chance and indifference



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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Fri 11 Mar 22:19

Footage of the mayor of Melitopol being dragged out of his offices, plastic hood over his head, and bundled away.
Dark days ahead for those in the occupied territories of Ukraine.

We all hate poverty, war, and injustice.
Unlike the rest of you squares.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: back oh the net  
Date:   Sat 12 Mar 01:19

Quote:

DBP, Thu 10 Mar 12:31

So it’s all very well saying we don’t want a war and stay standing at the sidelines…

But at what point do we decide enough is enough - when he target bombs innocent civilians? when he uses WMDs/chemical weapons? When he potentially causes another nuclear disaster? When he starves the civilian population without showing aid? When he threatens the next country?

Post Edited (Thu 10 Mar 16:12)


Great post I genuinely think the west would left with no other alternative but to get involved if he gave the order to use chemical or biological weapons I really hope it never gets to that point but let’s not forget this is the same man who at the beginning of February said he had no intention of invading Ukraine and here we are

Come on ye pars ⚽️
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Sat 12 Mar 06:12

Unconfirmed reports that Putin has hired 16,000 Syrian mercenaries to spearhead an urban offensive. Quite disturbing if true. More parallels with Hitler who used Bulgarian soldiers as cannon fodder in WW2.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3s5k_iH7KgI



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: P  
Date:   Sat 12 Mar 08:45

Quote:

sammer, Fri 11 Mar 21:09
I did say that most, not all reporters, have decamped to Lviv. There was a man called Lima Lopez doing personal videos from Kiev at the start of all this, not particularly taking the western media position, and he seems to have disappeared.


I don’t think your intention was to suggest that he has disappeared because he has been silenced by the West but it can easily be read like that but either way I think you will find quite a lot have people has disappeared considering Russians are bombing the ***** out of their homes


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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Sat 12 Mar 11:02

Quote:

DBP, Thu 10 Mar 12:31

So it’s all very well saying we don’t want a war and stay standing at the sidelines…

But at what point do we decide enough is enough - when he target bombs innocent civilians? when he uses WMDs/chemical weapons? When he potentially causes another nuclear disaster? When he starves the civilian population without showing aid? When he threatens the next country?


Excellent post, DBP.

It`s a great pity that the NATO troops didn`t move into Ukraine when Putin started massing his troops on that country`s eastern and northern borders and let him know that it had no intention of firing the first shot, but would respond in kind if Russia invaded. Putin was obviously encouraged by the West`s reticence to get involved, having tested the waters in Crimea in 2014 and eastern Ukraine more recently.

He probably reckoned Ukraine would just roll over and meekly surrender, while the West cast a Nelsonian eye on the proceedings.



Not your average Sunday League player.


Post Edited (Sat 12 Mar 11:04)
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: aaaaaaaaaargh  
Date:   Sat 12 Mar 12:38

It`s all too complicated for me.

Putin has already managed to convince a huge chunk of Russians that Nato are supporting Ukraine without any evidence. Nato sending troops would have just made his position even stronger.

I think this is a lose-lose situation for everyone involved. The sooner Putin is dead, the better.

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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Sat 12 Mar 13:17

A mayor being hustled out of his office by armed paramilitaries is hardly news in that part of the world. Kidnappings, torture and murder have been documented in the Donbas area by regular UN reports since the Ukrainian coup of 2014 but nobody in the west seemed much interested. These UN reports have identified atrocities from both the Russian backed separatists and the Ukrainian military. Everything that is being reported at the moment, including hospitals being bombed, has been happening in Donbas for the last eight years. So long as Ukraine could keep a lid on the situation the west stood on the sidelines, as DBP blames it for doing now.

People are certainly disappearing, including inside Kiev where no Russian military presence yet exists. Arbitrary arrests of unreliable citizens and summary executions have been reported although not yet confirmed. The Ukrainian Defence Ministry has acknowledged the death of Denis Kireev, who appeared at a recent peace meeting in Belarus, but the circumstances of his death remain unclear. Two Ukrainian MPs claim he was shot outside his office for being a traitor, or double agent but the Defence Ministry has claimed him as a hero of Ukraine.

The threat of NATO troops massing on Russian borders is one of the catalysts for the present situation, so I can’t see how more of the same would have helped. Since 2014, principally the USA has been supplying Ukraine with military equipment and organising weapons training. As a policy it has failed to keep the peace, as the likes of Kissinger long forecast it would. Putin’s immediate aims are clear enough: Donbas and Crimea to be under Russian control along with Ukraine as a non NATO entity. All of these are now established facts on the ground, although critics of Putin’s assault might point out that was largely the case before 24 February anyhow. Zelensky cannot retrieve any of the above through military means so he either has to hope he can widen the conflict or sue for peace.

Tales of foreign fighters make good news stories but rarely translate into numbers of any relevance. Ukraine announced it had 20,000 fighters arriving last week, so Russia countered that with 15,000 this week.

sammer
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Sat 12 Mar 20:14

We all tend to follow the narrative of whichever country we live in and the Russian people are clearly following a very different one to those of us in the West. TV pictures on the main UK channels are perhaps a more reliable guide to what is going on in Ukraine and it`s very harrowing viewing.

I cannot see any justification for bombing entire cities. There will be no real winners in this war, we are all diminished by it. Putin`s decision to invade has set Europe back some 40 years. Who was it who said "If we don`t learn from history, we`re destined to repeat It?"



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Sat 12 Mar 22:00

I agree entirely GG that there can be no winners from the conflict. Russia cannot subdue Ukraine any more than the UK could have subdued Ireland 100 years ago. It’s a fool’s errand, if that is Putin’s plan. No more can Zelensky lead anything more than a death cult and heroic martyrdom. Zelensky on present form is looking at a spell in the Lubianka Prison or a lecture tour in the USA. I am sure he will take the latter. This morning he talked of victory; this afternoon he talked of a ceasefire; this evening he talked of Kiev being burned to the ground. Not an easy man to follow in all respects of the phrase.

The UK media is little able to see the wider picture which is not just military, but also political and economic. This is not the first war; it is the first of possibly many. Such is understood in Iran, China and India. The western media think Europe is the world but it is not: one in every three people on this planet are citizens of Russia, China or India. The birth rate in Europe tells it s own story: it is in decline. NATO has little purpose left in Europe. There are bigger, more lucrative battles ahead for American hegemony. Ukraine is expendable.

sammer
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: aaaaaaaaaargh  
Date:   Sun 13 Mar 00:27

"one in every three people on this planet are citizens of Russia, China or India"

Or you could have said one in every three people on the planet are citizens of France, Germany, China, or India.

In fact if you had said Liechtenstein, China, or India then it would have been more-or-less correct, too.

I suppose the declining birth rate in Russia (which is already lower than in Europe) also tells its own story.

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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Sun 13 Mar 12:31

In these grim times I did manage a smile at your reference to Lichtenstein which was absolutely correct. I was thinking more in terms of political affiliations when I included Russia alongside China and India, countries with which it at present has good relations economically and politically. As you point out Russia has a declining birth rate and life expectancy dipped significantly after the end of the USSR. The comparison between Russia and the UK as declining empires, not sure of their role in Europe, has often been made. It appears the UK is hitching its wagon to the Anglosphere whereas Russia sees it future in the co-called BRIC alliance.

I wasn’t meaning to write the EU out of history: it will remain an important part of the world order and probably offers the best chance of ending this present war which is now in its 18th day. Russia will not be lectured to by NATO which it sees as an anti-Russian military alliance and Ukraine will not be badgered by Russia which it sees as neighbour opposed to its sovereignty. France has traditionally been cool about NATO within Europe and Macron’s offer based on the Minsk accords was the best opportunity to prevent war but was rebuffed by Putin and Zelensky. Amidst all the clamour it remains the starting point for ending the present conflict.

sammer
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Sun 13 Mar 21:19

Russia now using Chemical weapons on civilians in Popasna.
Confirmed that White Posphorus has been used, banned since 1977 under the Geneva convention.
Sure Sammer will be along soon to defend this as well.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Sun 13 Mar 23:37

Until I see evidence to the contrary about these unconfirmed reports, I will regard them in the same way as the chemical attacks in Syria in 2013 and for the same reason. An army has no motivation to use chemical weapons in a war where it has the ascendancy. This is elementary logic and all the more so since this alleged attack took place in an area assumed to be under Russian control.

Various UN investigations reached no firm conclusion about who was responsible for the chemical attacks in Syria. A few western governments plus Israel had no such doubts and pointed the finger at Assad although they never provided much in the way of evidence. This line was endorsed by MSM and is probably accepted widely to this day in countries hostile to Assad. Hence Johnson’s barb about chemical weapons being ‘right out of Putin’s playbook’ as he prepared his public for the next development. He managed to say this with a straight face when standing shoulder to shoulder with the sons of those who sprayed napalm and Agent Orange across Vietnam.

The chemical attack line has been prepared for the best part of a week. Its intention will be to validate the involvement of NATO in further support for Ukraine so that the conflict can be widened.

sammer
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Mon 14 Mar 00:20

Quote:

sammer, Sun 13 Mar 23:37

Until I see evidence to the contrary about these unconfirmed reports, I will regard them in the same way as the chemical attacks in Syria in 2013 and for the same reason. An army has no motivation to use chemical weapons in a war where it has the ascendancy. This is elementary logic and all the more so since this alleged attack took place in an area assumed to be under Russian control.

Various UN investigations reached no firm conclusion about who was responsible for the chemical attacks in Syria. A few western governments plus Israel had no such doubts and pointed the finger at Assad although they never provided much in the way of evidence. This line was endorsed by MSM and is probably accepted widely to this day in countries hostile to Assad. Hence Johnson’s barb about chemical weapons being ‘right out of Putin’s playbook’ as he prepared his public for the next development. He managed to say this with a straight face when standing shoulder to shoulder with the sons of those who sprayed napalm and Agent Orange across Vietnam.

The chemical attack line has been prepared for the best part of a week. Its intention will be to validate the involvement of NATO in further support for Ukraine so that the conflict can be widened.


One major flaw in your arguement is that Popasna has been held by Ukrainian forces since July 2014.
I knew you would be defending the use of Chemical weapons by Russia.
I knew it was coming soon since the noises coming out of the Kremlin were that Ukraine were allegedly developing chemical weapons.
It`s the exact same playbook they used in Syria to kill civilians.
It`s an absolute disgrace you keep spewing out Russian propaganda here.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Mon 14 Mar 08:36

Quote:

sadindiefreak, Sun 13 Mar 21:19

Russia now using Chemical weapons on civilians in Popasna.
Confirmed that White Posphorus has been used, banned since 1977 under the Geneva convention.
Sure Sammer will be along soon to defend this as well.


Didn`t take him long.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: parsfan  
Date:   Mon 14 Mar 09:32

Yep, the Syrian people gassed themselves. The Ukrainians shelled their own maternity hospital, made no military sense for the Russians to do it I think you said, and their own nuclear power station.

I think you place far too more confidence in Russian decision making and competence than they merit.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The universe is ruled by chance and indifference





Post Edited (Mon 14 Mar 09:58)
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: parsfan  
Date:   Mon 14 Mar 10:12

Quote:

sammer, Sun 13 Mar 23:37
Until I see evidence to the contrary about these unconfirmed reports, I will regard them in the same way as the chemical attacks in Syria in 2013 and for the same reason.


...but not in the same way if it`s something that makes the other side look bad?

Quote:

sammer, Sat 12 Mar 13:17
People are certainly disappearing, including inside Kiev where no Russian military presence yet exists. Arbitrary arrests of unreliable citizens and summary executions have been reported although not yet confirmed.


As a young man did you ever imagine you`d become such a staunch supporter of a fascist state and imperialist aggression?

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The universe is ruled by chance and indifference



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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Mon 14 Mar 12:59

The UN could have used some of the knowledge claimed here when they investigated the Syrian chemical attacks. It’s not the opinions expressed that I take issue with- they might even be correct- but the certainty with which they are expressed. At present I have the dubious advantage of being bombarded by Russian propaganda on TV and assaulted by NATO propaganda online. There are some good contributions on various sites which are not aligned to either side.

I can hardly be accused of defending the use of chemical weapons by Russia since that has yet to be established. The story seems to have gone cold today although that might change.

Parsfan, as regards imperial aggression my attitude has remained unchanged since the days of the Vietnam invasion. I stated clearly in my first post that I do not accept the statement made by Vladimir Putin about Ukrainian sovereignty. It has as much right to independence as Scotland does. If this conflict was simply about Ukraine’s right to be an independent state then I would have little to disagree with you about.

The word fascism is bandied around freely as a general insult. The first thing any fascist regime does is arrest and imprison all the leading members of its immediate opponent, the Communist Party. In Russia the Communist Party remains the main opposition party to Putin although its hobnobbing with nationalists and the orthodox church would have Lenin turning in his mausoleum. In Ukraine the Communist Party has been closed down every time it attempts to organise. A fascist party in Ukraine is however allowed to organise, although it polls poorly. The openly fascist Bandera battalion were absorbed into the Ukrainian home guard long before the present situation. So if I was looking for fascism I know where I would be more likely to find it. Many foreign fighters (estimated at 17,000 by Time Magazine) offering their services to Ukraine since 2014 coup d’etat are well documented white supremacists who believe they are fighting some kind of holy war to save civilisation. Zelensky echoed such sentiments last week speaking to the Polish government.

I am repeatedly told that Zelensky cannot be a fascist because he has Jewish heritage. I don’t think he is as it happens but he is comfortable using their support. Besides, being Jewish and being a fascist are not mutually exclusive as Palestinians could confirm. When Menachem Begin tried to enter America, before he became Israeli PM, Albert Einstein was amongst those who denounced him as a man who followed a fascist and neo-nazi ideology. Begin’s political party, once on the fringes, has evolved into the main ruling group in Israel for some time.

I note that both Russian and Ukrainian sides are talking more positively about their meeting planned for today. It’s a start at least.

sammer
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Mon 14 Mar 13:48

We are good at recognising other people`s propaganda but are blind to our own.

I suspect that this is because we are usually desperate to believe our own side`s propaganda, after all - we all want to see ourselves as the good guys: hence why so many supported the Iraq invasion to give a particularly egregious example.

For example, it is true that White Supremacist militias have been integrated into the Ukrainian army reserve, the Azov Regiment is a real thing.

The levels of racism in huge areas of Ukraine are horrific, as this article from Reuters in 2016 shows.



Post Edited (Mon 14 Mar 13:50)
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Mon 14 Mar 16:00

As I`ve said before, there`s always going to be two sides with the truth in the middle. British media will always be "Russia bad" and Russian media will always be "West bad". I`m sure there are exceptions but media coverage across the world is awfully biased.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: parsfan  
Date:   Mon 14 Mar 18:52

I don`t think communism comes into a definition of fascism. It`s a thing in its own right can exist without any communists to lock up. Fascists lock up, or worse, threats to themselves (real or imaginary) and their power.

Reuters describing the locked up Navalny as Vladimir Putin`s Main Rival

Reuters on Russia detaining prominent opposition politicians

So, that argument and any amount of your whataboutery isn't going to change my opinion on it being a fascist state. Yes, I use it in the pejorative, rather than literal, sense but it ticks all the boxes...authoritarian, militaristic, nationalistic, corrupt to the core, not tolerating any dissent or genuine opposition and brutal in the extreme.

You say you don't agree with the invasion but you come across as defending them at almost every turn. Now, while saying that you don't necessarily disagree with people's opinions, just the certainty with which they're expressed, might sound a bit conciliatory it's not as if there's ever much equivocation in any your words.

All that said, the biggest story in Europe in our lifetimes and this thread is surprisingly quiet. It would be even more so without your views.

Edit: preview on website version submitted form so went back to doing it on phone.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The universe is ruled by chance and indifference





Post Edited (Mon 14 Mar 21:34)
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Mon 14 Mar 19:03

It`s dangerous to assume that the truth is in the middle, in this case and in general.

Some people think the earth is round and others think it`s flat.

Some people think that non-white people, women, and LGBT+ people are inherently inferior others think that people with those beliefs are dangerous.

And if it is in the middle then where in the middle? It`s a pretty big middle.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: red-star-par  
Date:   Mon 14 Mar 22:16

Incidentally, where do most people get their news from? I use the BBC News app. I realise it`s state propaganda but it usually gives me the starting point to research things that interest me further. Reuters does tend to be quite a good source, and I didn`t mind RT a couple of years ago but there is a bit of a spin on that too. Can anyone recommend any decent news Apps, that don`t have too much political bias, I`m really just after the facts
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Mon 14 Mar 23:21

Whataboutery was called compare and contrast when I was at school and has its roots as far back as Plato. If you are uncomfortable with that concept feel free to abandon it, but I’ll plod on. Julian Assange has apparently lost his right to appeal and his freedom now rests in the hands of Priti Patel. Craig Murray, who covered the Assange trial, has recently been released from a short spell in Saughton nick. The intention is clearly to silence them, particularly in relation to American foreign policy. In contrast Luke Harding, a journalist who has made unfounded allegations against Assange, is being give two articles a week in The Guardian as its resident expert on Russia. He was booted out of the country 10 years ago.

Stifling opposition is part and parcel of every regime. Everything you said about the Russian regime- authoritarianism, nationalism, corruption, intolerance of dissent- applies to the present UK regime. Ask the anti-vaxxers about the latter. State brutality is better hidden in the UK, but there are still a few Fife miners around who can give their account of what happened at Orgreave and how their family benefits were stopped. Orgeave was where the BBC accidentally mixed up the footage and had the police cavalry charge coming after, instead of before, being stoned by pickets.

There’s been a lot of talk about Munich, appeasement and Hitler in the western media and which country will Russia swallow up next. We’ve all done our O Level History so it’s a perfectly valid point to raise. But I’ll offer another analogy that carries more weight here in Russia. Hitler intended to subjugate the USSR and loot its mineral wealth which is considerable. The encroachment of NATO has been viewed in a similar way. Not so much as a crude military occupation per Hitler, but limiting Russia’s military options around Crimea as a forerunner to undermining its government and installing a compliant regime. Somebody like Yeltsin would fit the bill. The corporations would then create a few more Russian oligarchs to help them exploit the country’s resources and if Lenin’s proletariat rose up they could be dealt with by NATO forces.

There endeth the history lesson but I think the best chance to stop the fighting is for America to take a back seat. They have egged Zelensky on with military hardware and false promises but it is his country, not theirs, which is under attack. I believe that France, Germany and Turkey would have been capable of finding a way to implement the Minsk accords that was acceptable to both Russia and Ukraine and I hope they still can.

sammer
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Mon 14 Mar 23:43

RSP,

There is an Indian TV channel called Gravitas hosted by a woman called Palki Sharma. It`s very pacey- she sounds like Priti Patel on speed- it uses live footage and gives a fair amount of background to the stories. She does occasionally mix opinion in with her machine gun delivery facts but you wouldn`t want to argue with her.

sammer
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Mon 14 Mar 23:51

The bottom line is that, as an independent country, Ukraine should be free to form whatever alliances it wants, with whomever it wants.

Russia expects this for themselves so shouldn`t get all invadey when others do.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: P  
Date:   Tue 15 Mar 06:44

Wonder what will happen to journalist Marina Ovsyannikova who interrupted a state broadcast with a sign saying “Don’t believe the propaganda. They’re lying to you here.”

She described Russia`s invasion of Ukraine as a "crime" and called Russia "the aggressor", before taking aim at the country`s president.
"The responsibility of this aggression lies on the shoulders of only one person: Vladimir Putin”.

So at least some within Russia’s borders recognise that the Russian invasion is an indefensible crime and no amount of whataboutery (who cares if it was about in Plato’s time - it doesn’t make it a positive idea or any less than deflection) will make it anything else.

On whether to take in different media anyone can just use their eyes and look at the masses and masses of drone footage and social media footage with the sound off to know what is happening in Ukraine is utterly utterly wrong without the assistance of any propaganda / commentary from either side.




Post Edited (Tue 15 Mar 06:53)
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Tue 15 Mar 09:41

Quote:

sammer, Mon 14 Mar 23:43

RSP,

There is an Indian TV channel called Gravitas hosted by a woman called Palki Sharma. It`s very pacey- she sounds like Priti Patel on speed- it uses live footage and gives a fair amount of background to the stories. She does occasionally mix opinion in with her machine gun delivery facts but you wouldn`t want to argue with her.


Gravitas is not a reliable news source. The channel is called WION not Gravitas. Gravitas is their prime-time show.
They are the Indian equivalent of Fox News, or RT.
They very much follow the agenda of Modi the Indian Prime minister, a right wing ultra Hindu nationalist and chum of Putin.
It`s hardly surprising you like this show as it`s feeding your confirmation bias.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend  
Date:   Tue 15 Mar 09:42

If she is lucky, she will be in jail for a long time, however, I fear worse will befall her?
She is not in any police stations near the TV company

A very, very brave woman.




It's bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: parsfan  
Date:   Tue 15 Mar 09:52

Sammer, all those bad things you say have been, and would be, done by the west are all okay because other people/countries/regimes have done bad things beforehand. The people who did those bad things are off the hook as well because their predecessors did bad things too. Follow your logic and no one can ever be held accountable for anything as there`s always a precedent.

"The Holocaust? Armenian genocide?" "Whatabout humans wiping out the neanderthals?"
"Oh, that`s alright then. Forget I mentioned it."

Compare and contrast is fine, for example, if you`re writing a history paper and have been asked to do that to demonstrate your understanding of certain events, eras etc. Whataboutery is an attempt to excuse bad behaviour on the basis of someone else`s. That`s what you`re doing, defending war crimes in a war you think shouldn`t be happening and predicted, with certainty, wouldn`t happen.

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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Tue 15 Mar 18:39

Can learn from the past but a bad act going unpunished or unnoticed in the past doesn`t make one in the present okay.

Ignoring all the Russia Vs the West stuff, what are Russians being told about their reasons for being in Ukraine and bombing civilians? My understanding is there`s some question of those regions seeking independence? What has that got to do with Russia and how does killing innocent people help? If those areas are seeking independence then the first job will be to rebuild and try and encourage all those who has escaped the war to come back.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Tue 15 Mar 19:03

Marina Ovsyannikova, The woman who held up the anti war sign on TV, was fined 30,000 Roubles and released thank goodness.

She will probably face more charges though.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Tue 15 Mar 19:12

Quote:

Wotsit, Tue 15 Mar 19:03

Marina Ovsyannikova, The woman who held up the anti war sign on TV, was fined 30,000 Roubles and released thank goodness.

She will probably face more charges though.


I hope I`m wrong but once the attention has died down I think she might be in for a bit worse.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Tue 15 Mar 19:14

Quote:

red-star-par, Mon 14 Mar 22:16

Incidentally, where do most people get their news from? I use the BBC News app. I realise it`s state propaganda but it usually gives me the starting point to research things that interest me further. Reuters does tend to be quite a good source, and I didn`t mind RT a couple of years ago but there is a bit of a spin on that too. Can anyone recommend any decent news Apps, that don`t have too much political bias, I`m really just after the facts


Unfortunately they scrapped their app but NewsNow is a content aggregator and will pull in news from all over and if you switch off the English language only setting you can view articles from all over and just use translate to get a variety of views.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Tue 15 Mar 20:52

The Indian TV programme Gravitas is certainly pro Indian government but I don’t know if its international coverage could be described as right wing. It was too canny to swallow the chemical attack story, sourced from one Ukrainian military man, as an established story. Others were more credulous. There will plenty more of the same along soon no doubt since Stoltenberg is priming the western media for such war crimes. A Reichstag fire or Chernobyl explosion.

The clumsy expression ‘Whataboutery’ is in itself a deflection since it seeks to avoid unpleasant comparisons. However there is the relevant point that has been made here about two wrongs not making a right. Most of us had that dinned into us during childhood and would accept it. But in order for that to stand, you have to condemn the first wrong in order to condemn the second. My reading of UK media is that is not the case, and that Russia, in the words of Keir Starmer, has launched an ‘unprovoked’ attack on Ukraine. I can only assume Starmer was trying to pull on his NATO camouflage jacket: many American cold warriors, some of whom unlike Starmer actually served in government, have been claiming the exact opposite for years. The evidence is all there.

Whether the Russian invasion is justified as a response to provocation is another matter altogether. We can offer humanitarian and philosophical arguments to show that it was a complete over reaction. The photos that P watches of civilian casualties are similar to what is shown on Russian TV, hospital for hospital, child for child, save the locations are different. Maybe he’s right to turn down the volume because although the languages are different, they are saying the same humane things. But politics, which is the distribution and wielding of power, has always trumped moral arguments. Putin has chased NATO from his borders in Ukraine and either flushed out or destroyed weaponry that had been pouring into the country for the last eight years. In one of his better targeted missile attacks he’s even managed to kill over a hundred foreign fascists in a training camp. If he’d waited any longer then he would have had an even harder fight, so in his terms the invasion will be seen as justified. Any future provocations from NATO will be on one front, not two. He’ll believe he has succeeded under the terms outlined by Orwell: ‘The point of a war is not to win it, but to be in a better position to fight the next one.’

Parsfan, I’m not sure what war crimes I have defended. Despite SIF’s best hopes the chemical attack story has not been established. All war is a crime, a bloody carnival of failed politics. I did fund, through taxation, the Afghanistan and Iraq invasions so have to answer to these charges. Tony Blair, presumably unpaid by the Russian government, has been advocating NATO involvement today. Third time might be lucky for him, I suppose.

sammer
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Tue 15 Mar 23:09

My issue with whataboutery is that, whilst it is a useful rhetorical tool, it very rarely does nothing to further debate on any subject: it is pure deflection.

So whilst 1960s USA did have to look at the Jim Crow laws and their racist attitudes, the debate over what the USSR was doing in Czechoslovakia wasn`t the time.

It was, like now, a time where extreme actions require(d) solid moral defence rather than a scattergun attack on the actions of others.

Edit to add, with more hypocrisy than shame, that whataboutery is at least engaging in some form of debate whereas Tony Blair's answer to any criticism of his illegal war was to bluntly point out that the person was allowed to say what they said, and leave it at that.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"


Post Edited (Tue 15 Mar 23:14)
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Tue 15 Mar 23:35

Wotsit,

Your last post reads like some of my infamous vodka posts. So steady up.

But please keep writing. We need you here in these hard times. I do enjoy what you you write. Otherwise we will turn the world over to basic instincts. You are better than that, so keep writing.

sammer
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Wed 16 Mar 07:41

So why is Putin in Ukraine? Can anyone give a justifiable explanation? I don`t see "defending borders" as a reasonable excuse, especially when his forces are murdering innocent people quite some distance away from any border.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Wed 16 Mar 12:33

President Zelensky has apparently hinted that Ukraine may be able to reach a compromise with Russia to end the war, which would be very welcome news for the millions of innocent civilians caught up in it.

I would hope that, in the event, sanctions on Russia would not end immediately, but would be dependent on Moscow agreeing to pay for the rebuilding work which will then be required to repair the damage done by Russian shelling.



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: parsfan  
Date:   Wed 16 Mar 13:40

Quote:

sammer, Tue 15 Mar 20:52

Parsfan, I’m not sure what war crimes I have defended. Despite SIF’s best hopes the chemical attack story has not been established.


All of them.

"[Y]ou have to condemn the first wrong in order to condemn the second."

You`ve done the first bit and condemned plenty that has nothing to do with this war, while none of the second, far more relevant, ones ie Russian atrocities.

More specifically your reaction to Russian shelling of civilians escaping through a humanitarian corridor. It didn`t make sense therefore it couldn`t have happened, I think, summarises your argument. Plenty of what the Russian military have done in the last three weeks doesn`t make sense, even leaving aside the decision to invade in the first place.

I only ever heard of the alleged chemical weapons attack on here and haven`t offered an opinion on it. You did, you dismissed it out of hand saying, with certainty, that the UN didn`t blame the Syrian government for the gassing of Syrians.

From Reuters
”Repeated investigations by the United Nations and the OPCW`s special Investigation and Identification Team (IIT) concluded that Syrian government forces used the nerve agent sarin and chlorine barrel bombs in attacks between 2015 and 2018 that investigators said killed or injured thousands.”

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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Wed 16 Mar 14:14

So why is Putin in Ukraine? Can anyone give a justifiable explanation? I don`t see "defending borders" as a reasonable excuse, especially when his forces are murdering innocent people quite some distance away from any border.

Maybe it would be easier to understand if you were to imagine how the US would have responded if Mexico had decided to join the Warsaw Pact in 1965?


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: aaaaaaaaaargh  
Date:   Wed 16 Mar 14:40

So I suppose the answer is "Putin still thinks it is 1965".

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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Wed 16 Mar 17:33

And also I doubt the US would start murdering Mexicans on that basis. They`d more likely push for American companies to close may Mexican operations instead.

Unless Russia thinks NATO is planning on invading (why would it?) then it shouldn`t matter if a neighbouring country joins.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: P  
Date:   Wed 16 Mar 17:53

And if Russia somehow were to occupy Ukraine or put in place their own ruling body does that then mean that Russia are now on NATO’s border so it would be ok for an invasion by the West? Conversely NATO would then be on Russia’s revised border so do they continue west with more conquest.


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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Wed 16 Mar 17:54

The US threatened to destroy the planet over Cuba (who didn`t join the Warsaw Pact) and you think they would have responded less severely to Mexico joining a formal alliance with the USSR?


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy  
Date:   Wed 16 Mar 17:57

The reason Putin wants Ukraine is because its all about creating a legacy associated with his name. Much like the Brits who lost face at the loss of the empire or loss of Scotland, Putin is a nationalist who wishes to be seen as a strongman, restore Russian pride and re-create a Russian sphere of influence.

As I said earlier, the whole thing about this being a black and white conflict between ethnic Russians and Ukrainians is quite false. Outside of Donbas and Crimea, even Ethnic Russians have become more pro-Kiev since the Crimean annexation and Donbas conflict because of Putin`s aggression.

The language arguments are a bit squewed as well as only about 15-20% of the population are ethnic Russians, while about 30% are Russian-speaking Ukrainians owing to the Brehnev doctrines in the 70s whereby they were forced to learn. Prior to Yanukovic, there were not language laws in Ukraine post-independence as it was seen as impractical to do so because Russian and Ukrainian were interchangeable in conversation - Ukrainian is spoken more in the North and West as well as widely rurally, while as you go South and East you get progressively more Russian speaking and it is also more prominent in urban centres. It Janukovich`s Party of Regions that first tried to change the laws before an election due to a drop in poll ratings because they wanted to appeal to their voter base, which was primarily Russian. Funnily enough, they weren`t keen on the Hungarians in the Transcarpathia getting the same rights for Hungarian!

Anyways, is is an article involving the dude who teaches the Russia-Belarus-Ukraine course I`m currently doing. (you`ll need translate though!)

https://www.sydsvenskan.se/2022-02-25/det-finns-ingen-konflikt-mellan-etniska-ukrainare-och-etniska-ryssar-i-ukraina?fbclid=IwAR0ohpEkqYxN_uqPql35IqN-PCVLYtRx--8JH86sWdYaNTODKHezP87EgSA

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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Wed 16 Mar 22:00

The NATO insurance policy does not pay out. That is what Putin has ripped up in public view and has inspired the hysteric reaction from a fearful Western Europe. NATO is just wet tissue paper in the hands of those who hold it. He`s called out a bluff.

I appreciate that Ukraine was not part of NATO but as I said in one of my first posts, that piece of paper would have made little difference. The USA was keen to egg on the juvenile Zelensky to provoke Russia, but it has no intention of losing one American life to fight for whatever cause Zelensky thinks he is fighting for. Same goes for the Baltics if it comes to that. Standing ovations are a poor substitute for good politics. Count your dead.

We need a rapprochement here which curtails both NATO expansionism and Russian expansionism. If you can`t see the problem with the first, then you won`t understand the problem with the second. This idiotic war could end tomorrow if the US warmongers are kept away from the negotiations.

sammer
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Wed 16 Mar 22:25

"Count your dead"?
What a disgusting comment to make.
When war crimes are being committed with the deliberate targeting of civilians.
My inlaws are still in Ukraine and you think saying something like that is appropriate?

4 dead Russian generals already out of the 20 sent there.
And 10% of total number of Russian troops on their way home in body bags.
Your pal Putin needs to count the dead Russians he is responsible for and maybe allow the Russian people to know the cost of "special military operation."
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Wed 16 Mar 22:44

Sammer, last time I checked no country has been forced to join NATO 😂
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Wed 16 Mar 22:51

Because your in laws are in Ukraine, I am asked to temper my language? I have had two people known to my friends here in Russia who were shot dead when attempting to reach Kiev Railway station over one week ago, a mother and a daughter. They were shot dead, in the opinion of their family, by Azov militia who were attempting to prevent civilians leaving Kiev. Long live Bandera.

War is a crime. Forget war crimes.

Your Daily Express take on the military conflict has been noted and given due regard. I have no doubt the Kremlin will adapt their strategy accordingly in line with your critique.

sammer
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Wed 16 Mar 22:57

Quote:

Wotsit, Wed 16 Mar 17:54

The US threatened to destroy the planet over Cuba (who didn`t join the Warsaw Pact) and you think they would have responded less severely to Mexico joining a formal alliance with the USSR?


But Estonia and Latvia are part of NATO and border Russia.

Just reminds me of that "ya want sum? I`ll give it ya!" guy at the football. Pathetic posturing that is resulting in the deaths of many innocent people.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Wed 16 Mar 23:02

Jake89,

Fair point. NATO was never forced on plutocrats, just bribed. That`s your choice in life. Choose the finger up your bum. Either Russian tanks or Yankee banks. But the people are never consulted either way.

There are 20,000 US troops hanging around Britain in the event of a Corbyn style government taking power. Tommy Robinson has an small army at his disposal, to help restore order. The SNP have been well warned are now rehabilitating witches as part of their progressive agenda. Real cutting edge stuff.

sammer
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Wed 16 Mar 23:29

Quote:

sammer, Wed 16 Mar 22:51

Because your in laws are in Ukraine, I am asked to temper my language? I have had two people known to my friends here in Russia who were shot dead when attempting to reach Kiev Railway station over one week ago, a mother and a daughter. They were shot dead, in the opinion of their family, by Azov militia who were attempting to prevent civilians leaving Kiev. Long live Bandera.

War is a crime. Forget war crimes.

Your Daily Express take on the military conflict has been noted and given due regard. I have no doubt the Kremlin will adapt their strategy accordingly in line with your critique.


Saying count the bodies is sick.

And I don`t believe your made up story either.
For one the Azov battalion operate from Mariupal.
There you are bringing up a fascist who has been dead 63 years to somehow justify this war.
I with try your tactic of whatabootery or "contrast and compare". Tell me about Putins love of neo nazis who are alive today, Aleksandr Dugin who`s fascist philosophy on geopolitics Putin is following to the letter. And Alexander Prokanov another fascist who Putin is good buddies with sending annual birthday greetings.
So what`s worse saying a Ukrainian independence fighter from 63 years ago, who was also a racist anti semite was a Hero of Ukraine. Or being a fascist, following the fascist ideology of your favourite nazi philosopher and being best buds with another neo nazi who are alive in the present.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Thu 17 Mar 00:11

Nobody killed more fascists than the USSR. The rest, well they did a bit. Maybe not enough. Ask France or Germany as the Baader Meinhof exposed in their day.

One reason Mariupol has been targeted is due to its fascist infrastructure.

You are losing the argument desperately; I am being ordered to honour your in- laws who are still alive I trust: yet you deny the reality of people who were killed trying to leave Kiev as `made up`. That is how you described their fate as it does not fit your right wing agenda., although my evidence for them being dead is a whole lot greater than your false flag drivel about a chemical attack.

If you have your way, and the war escalates then you can wave your NATO/AZOV flag in the name of freedom. But I still believe, still hope , better counsels shall prevail.

sammer
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Thu 17 Mar 00:31

My right wing agenda? 😂🤣😂🤣😂

Why are you failing to comment on Dugin and Prokanhov.

Your story doesn`t ring true since Mariupol is nowhere near Kyiv, there is no way the Azov battalion did what you accused them of. Half the population of Kyiv have left, why would the people you claim were trying to leave be singled out and shot when thousands were fleeing. Your story just doesn`t add up. I`m not doubting you were told this by your friends but pretty sure it`s false.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: P  
Date:   Thu 17 Mar 06:51

Safe to say you’re not winning any arguments here Sammer, a large proportion of your posts make you appear to be an apologist for Putin which in turn makes you an advocate (or at best in denial) of what is the murder of women and children BY Russia - of that there is no doubt.

Your regular NATO is crushed rhetoric is almost zealot in that it is delivered with the same enthusiasm as an Old Firm fan lambasting the other half. I can only guess that you have seen constant media for a prolonged period where you are of told of NATO being the big bad boogeyman. Your predictions from early in the war were so far from being right it’s clear that the media you view has certainly skewed your thinking.

I remember well when Russia was portrayed that way here when growing up in fear of nuclear war in the 70’s and early 80’s but Russia has not been the boogeyman for a very long time now so we just don’t think on the same lines as you appear to…..we are getting there though sadly. NATO barely registers either and the Cold War ended for most of us years ago.

I think most of us see a senseless invasion of a sovereign nation by a much bigger neighbour, very clear Russian aggression and savage behaviour and can pretty much draw a straight line to conclude that the special operation/war is without a shadow of doubt wrong and no amount of deflection and defence of Russia makes it even the tiniest little bit right.




Post Edited (Thu 17 Mar 06:59)
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Thu 17 Mar 07:44

Quote:

sammer, Wed 16 Mar 23:02

Jake89,

Fair point. NATO was never forced on plutocrats, just bribed. That`s your choice in life. Choose the finger up your bum. Either Russian tanks or Yankee banks. But the people are never consulted either way.

There are 20,000 US troops hanging around Britain in the event of a Corbyn style government taking power. Tommy Robinson has an small army at his disposal, to help restore order. The SNP have been well warned are now rehabilitating witches as part of their progressive agenda. Real cutting edge stuff.


Sammer, please take a break from this forum. Posts like this are quite concerning. Take care of yourself.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Thu 17 Mar 07:59

Latest comment from Putin
"Of course they (the West) will try to bet on the so-called fifth column, on traitors - on those who earn their money here, but live over there. Live, not in the geographical sense, but in the sense of their thoughts, their slavish thinking,"

Absolutely chilling. Your thoughts are enough now to define you as traitor.

By the way, great post P.

We all hate poverty, war, and injustice.
Unlike the rest of you squares.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Sun 20 Mar 14:27

Folk who were paying attention in the 1990s will remember that Putin is a consequence of the Shock Doctrine economics imposed on Russia by the world Bank and IMF in the 1990s.

Russia was not enjoying an economic miracle in 1999 when putin took power, people were literally starving. Russians wanted someone like putin because western influence had been so devastating immediately after the USSR collapsed.

The oligarchs also existed in 1998, because they were the ones able to take advantage of the rushed privatisations, usually as a result of having cash reserves from their time as black marketeers (organised criminals) in Soviet times.

The privatisations basically consisted of people receiving vouchers which represented shares in former Soviet assets, which they then sold to the gangsters (who had cash) for a tiny fraction of their value so that they could afford to eat.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sun 20 Mar 16:55

Didn`t know that about the vouchers. Makes you wonder why Putin didn`t just take those industries back off the gangsters.

We all hate poverty, war, and injustice.
Unlike the rest of you squares.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Mon 21 Mar 00:43

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1992-10-02-mn-334-story.html

It`s probably also worth mentioning that the Russian press started to be more tightly reigned in by the Kremlin again prior to the 1996 presidential election which was very nearly won by a Communist - as in, things were going so badly that the government had to take control of the press in order to prevent the Communist from being elected five years after the fall of the USSR. That would have been awkward.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Mon 21 Mar 09:10

So only five years after the `gang of eight` failed in their coup attempt due to people power opposing them the communists nearly got themselves back into power. Perhaps not unsurprisingly the press after decades of zero freedom under communism were agahst at the thought of that party returning to rule.
Anyway twenty six years later and Russian bombs and missiles continue to reign down on Ukrainian towns and cities with the atrocities showing no sign of relenting.



Post Edited (Mon 21 Mar 09:12)
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Mon 21 Mar 14:55

If history sees Putin as the next Hitler it will see the plundering of the collapsing USSR in 1991 as his Versailles - as the point at which the conditions were created for extreme nationalist ideology to take root.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Mon 21 Mar 16:51

History won`t see Putin as the next Hitler because if he is then there won`t be anyone left to write it.

We all hate poverty, war, and injustice.
Unlike the rest of you squares.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Mon 21 Mar 17:54

There is truth in what you say Wotsit, but I wouldn’t place too much responsibility on western powers. It was opportunists within the government apparatus, Russian citizens, who seized their opportunity to loot publicly owned assets and sell them to the highest bidder. Of course they were aided and abetted by capitalist countries, but it was their decision to comply. Nobody forced them to sign a peace treaty like at Versailles. The USSR system did not collapse: it was destroyed from within by persons now referred to as oligarchs. Putin rarely hides his contempt for them but has restricted himself to shaking them down for cash when he needs it. Abramovich stayed in the good books because he embarked on an Andrew Carnegie type of philanthropy in the west of Moscow, particularly in relation to technology and education. The oligarch influence on Russian politics is minimal and the notion that sanctioning their ill gotten gains might undermine the Putin regime is misguided.

The 1996 election almost won by the Communist Party- some claim it actually did win- might seem surprising but in a Russian context it was a reaction to the gangster capitalism unleashed in the previous years. The Communist Party known to us via cold war rhetoric- all stony faced psychopaths in overcoats clapping tanks in Red Square- was not the reality on the ground. The CP was viewed more like the Labour Party, the party of working people which operated through trade unions, local co-operatives and sports clubs. Many Russians my age look back on the Brezhnev years with a great deal of nostalgia, just as many in the UK think the era of Harold Wilson was maybe as good as it has ever been.

We live in hope for a ceasefire and peace deal but it’s not easy to be optimistic. It seems that Putin is intent on destroying the idea of Ukraine nationalism and at the very least that means occupying Kiev. Zelensky has tied himself to the mast of last stand resistance and would be discredited if he signed a peace deal worse than the one offered a month ago. Even if he wanted to, the Americans might not allow him since he is more use to NATO as a martyr.

sammer
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Wed 23 Mar 17:52

The Russian Foreign Minister has, without any apparent irony, called the freezing of their currency reserves as "thievery. "

I prefer the term "special financial operation."


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy  
Date:   Thu 24 Mar 16:49

Ukrainians starting to push the Russians back now according to various outlets!
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Thu 24 Mar 17:55

Amazing if true!

Would love to see Ukraine triumph and reclaim Crimea but in truth it probably means they’ll have a decent bargaining position at the negotiating table
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend  
Date:   Tue 29 Mar 15:49

Promising progress made in talks in Turkey today with Ukraine offering neutral status.




It's bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Wed 30 Mar 10:48

Finlandization


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: back oh the net  
Date:   Wed 30 Mar 17:28

I note the absence of our Russian correspondent since the Ukrainian forces started to push the mighty Russian army back how many Russian generals is that now 7?

Come on ye pars ⚽️
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Wed 30 Mar 19:32

Not Nearly Enough

We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Thu 31 Mar 00:52

Wishing death on people, or voodoo, is rarely a healthy sign. More often a sign of impotence, the knee jerk reaction of a slave morality.

I am happy to be recognised as a Russian correspondent. I have lived in the country for 15 years after being in Scotland for 50 years. If you read my offerings carefully, and if I have expressed myself accurately, you will understand that I am no mouthpiece for the Russian government’s actions in Ukraine. I have however, explained the rationale behind Russia’s actions, one which is being widely reported outside western media, but no longer easily available inside Britain. If that makes me a Putin stooge then I have been many in my time: An ANC (Mandela) stooge; Allende stooge; Scargill/McGahey stooge; Saddam stooge; Corbyn stooge; Assange stooge etc. Sometimes history serves me well, other times not so much.

Military reports are just words and paper. They have been since The Illiad, and that was written about 400years after the siege of Troy yet possibly as accurate as what appears on the BBC relating to Ukraine. Photos and news film give the illusion of reality but no more. If you want to take US, NATO or UK military statements as truth then go on your way. Stories of drunk Russians soldiers have been appearing for over 35 days, along with chemical attacks and mutiny, running over commanders in tanks. mass demonstrations on Moscow streets. Incidentally, the loudest cheerleaders in The Guardian for peaceniks in Moscow are the very same people- such as Harding and Tisdall- who threw themselves at the knees of Blair and salivated over the invasion of Iraq. If you ever wondered why a mediocrity like Andrew Marr ever hosted a prime time political slot on the BBC go back and read his paean to Tony Blair.

I diverge. This is a politics site, not a moral philosophy or ethics site, so I will stick with realpolitik. From a Russian perspective the Ukraine offensive is already won, although the cost in political and economic terms is still to be calculated both in the east and in the west. The Russian southern border has been protected. The gains in territory within Ukraine will be held in some political form or other. NATO will be pushed back westwards and probably discredited as an insurance policy. Most important of all, certainly to America, the de-dollarisation of the international currency market has been moved forward. Ukraine has been a proxy war for wider interests which is well understood in China and India. In that sense it can never really have a resolution but I would hope for a temporary secession with immediate effect.

sammer
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Thu 31 Mar 06:51

Sammer, what`s the Russian view on the reasoning for invading Ukraine? You mention the de-dollarisation but that`s hardly a justification for an invasion and is more likely an unintended consequence. You also mention Russia`s borders. What`s the Russian view on this? Was/is there a perception of a potential Ukrainian (presumably NATO backed?) invasion? If so, for what purpose?
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Thu 31 Mar 23:08

Hi jake89,

When Putin spoke on television on 24th February he raised the issue of an imminent invasion into Donbas region by Ukrainian troops. He claimed his military action in Ukraine was a pre-emptive strike to prevent this taking place. The reason for invading the Donbas area from a Ukrainian perspective would have been to crush the self-styled independent republics and bring them under direct Ukrainian control. There seems to be nothing more solid than military reports to substantiate Putin’s claim, and I have made my confidence in military reports clear enough in my previous post. Most Russians seem to accept the case made by Putin, aware obviously that the Donbas saw a Ukrainian president from that area overthrown by mob rule in 2014 in what was celebrated in the west as a victory for democracy!

Since then there has been a civil war in Donbas area simmering away with an estimated 12,000 deaths. Amnesty has reported atrocities committed by both Ukrainian military/paramilitary and Russian nationalists. Imagine Northern Ireland with both the Shankill UVF and the Armagh IRA receiving generous military support from national governments and you can imagine how dangerous the place was. Zelensky came to power committed to making the Minsk accords work and ending the conflict. In Russia he was seen as an improvement on his kleptocratic predecessors and for a while the situation in the area seemed to improve. What’s not clear to me is why Putin, even if his military reports were correct, did not confine his military action to the Donbas region. Presumably there were tactical reasons for this beyond my ken.

Like you I imagine, I am following events from the safety of my armchair. Despite what The Guardian claimed last week, there is no martial law in Moscow. Security at metro stations is as was. I have yet to see anyone wearing a Z t-shirt in support of military action although there are claims in western media that they are all over the place. Putin is generally trusted, especially by Russians my age, who remember Gorbachev as the arsonist who burned down the USSR and Yeltsin as the spiv who organised a fire sale for the western powers. Biden’s blunder last Saturday when he let the cat out of the bag about regime change in Russia merely confirmed what they have long suspected. Younger Russians weaned on free travel and consumer goods tend to be more lukewarm about a president who has been there most of their lives and is now overseeing access to these items restricted. However the cruder anti-Russian propaganda from the west, of word and deed, is broadcast on Russian TV and naturally enough their instinct is to support their country.

To sum up, I would say the mood in Moscow is one of acceptance. The feeling is that if Putin had not acted now, then he would have had to act later from a weaker position. Every weapon sent from the west into Ukraine, even if done with the best of intentions, simply confirms this viewpoint.

sammer
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Parboiled  
Date:   Fri 1 Apr 10:56

“ every weapon sent from the west”

I read “ God save the Queen” yells the Ukraine trooper as his Brit supplied shoulder launched missile knocks out another Russian tank”

90% kill rate. The orders will be rolling in….



Post Edited (Fri 01 Apr 10:58)
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Fri 1 Apr 15:45

It is none of Putin`s beeswax if Ukraine wants to move parts of its military within its own borders to deal with a violent, foreign-backed, uprising. It is Ukraine`s territory.

I wonder how Putin would have responded if NATO had decided that it was going to invade Russia to protect Chechens? Actually, I don`t wonder - I know exactly how he would have responded and he would have had justification.

Why is Ukraine`s sovereignty any less important than Russia`s? Or anybody else`s for that matter?

I repeat - it is Ukraine`s territory.

Post Edited (Fri 01 Apr 15:47)
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Fri 1 Apr 19:55

Putin doesn`t strike me as a Facebook sweetie-wife getting involved in everyone`s business. It sounds more like he wants to take parts of Ukraine where there may be a desire to split off. Unfortunately, his forces just destroyed those areas 🤦‍♂️🤷‍♂️
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Fri 1 Apr 23:11

Wotsit,

The violent foreign backed uprising in Donbas came in response to an elected government being overthrown in Ukraine in 2014. In terms of democracy it was not much of a loss- like all previous and subsequent Ukrainian governments it was known for oligarchs plundering the public purse- yet it had been elected for all that. Those in the Donbas region who identified as being Russian objected to what they saw as a coup d’etat and, supported as you say by Russia, refused to acknowledge the new Ukrainian regime. Since then areas of Donbas region have remained part of Ukraine geographically but not politically since they do not recognise the legitimacy of the Ukrainian government.

You’ve suggested that Ukraine had the right to move in troops to deal with this rebellion on its own soil but there are a few points to be addressed. First of all, the coup d’etat by itself makes claims about sovereignty rather hollow. Second, legislation viewed as anti-Russian which was put into law within a few days of the regime taking power. Third, NATO supplied military equipment which has been shipped in generous quantities into Ukraine since 2014 to help put down the rebellion. The result has been a proxy war between NATO and Russia over that territory for almost eight years, little reported by western media, in which around 12,000 people have died.

The reasons for Putin’s interest in the area are pretty obvious. On a nationalist level- and he heads a nationalist type political party- he has to be seen to protect Russians under attack in a neighbouring country. On a political level he cannot allow a gateway for NATO troops to gather on his border given its barely concealed desire for regime change in Russia which long precedes the present conflict.

Ukraine’s sovereignty is worth no more than Cuba’s was in 1962 when the USA drew the line at the island installing nuclear weaponry. In response, Castro wrote his Armageddon letter to Khrushchev demanding that the USA be attacked with Soviet nuclear weapons. Fortunately, wiser counsel prevailed.

sammer
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Sat 2 Apr 00:39

I would always be in favour of overthrowing any government who employed Steve Bannon.

Especially once they started imprisoning the opposition.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Sat 2 Apr 09:37

Seem to be omitting the 100 or so folk dead for protesting in Kiev that played a pretty significant part in Yanukovch being replaced. Still he made a tidy profit during his time in charge.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy  
Date:   Sat 2 Apr 09:59

Sammer, you`ve omitted (deliberately or otherwise) the fact that the Maidan protests kicked off because Yanukovych backed out of an agreement with the EU and it was actually his Party, The Party of Regions, who sought to introduce language laws because they were trailing in the polls and wanted to appeal to their pro-Russian base. Prior to this there were no real official language laws and the whole concept of this has been used as a political tool to either nation-build and promote ties with Russia. Funnily enough though, the same Party didn`t like it when the Hungarians in Transcarpathia asked for the same rights that the Russians were getting. Other than in Donbas and Crimea, even the ethnic Russians have become more pro-Ukraine. Big egg on face moment for Putin.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Sat 2 Apr 16:27

Wotsit,
That’s the thing about overthrowing governments. When we approve we call it people power, which was John Kerry’s approach when he praised the Maidan revolution. When we disapprove we call it mob rule, which was Kerry’s response when Trump-inspired Proud Boys invaded the Capitol to contest the election result. Banning opposition parties has been a feature of Zelensky’s premiership and if any of his citizens now had the nerve to call for a peace deal then they would last no longer on the streets of Kiev than their counterparts would on the streets of Moscow.

LPF,
Without being hard hearted about it, 100 people killed in a revolution is relatively bloodless. The bigger problem has been the thousands of deaths which have occurred as a result of that revolution. The brutality of the civil war in Donbas- kidnap, arbitrary arrest and torture- has been documented by the UN. The Maidan revolution is still is being presented in the western media as democratic and bloodless, which is a fiction. Film of the horrors of Donbas has been considered too boring for western audiences so has hardly seen the light of day.

HJ,
If the majority of the Ukrainian people rejected Yanukovych’s decision not to sign up to the EU bribe (I think he was offered more dosh by Putin) then they could have booted him out at the upcoming election. As Wotsit remarked, Yanukovych lined his own pockets same as Poroshenko who followed him. If you’re not already a millionaire when you take on the top job in Ukraine, you certainly are when you leave it. Zelensky with an estimated $13 million fortune is upholding that tradition.

I don’t disagree with you on the language issue, a confected piece of identity politics by Yanukovych which resulted in a backlash.

You’ll no doubt be correct about the shifting allegiances within Ukraine since Russian troops arrived. Imagine UK troops coming into an independent Scotland to ‘denazify’ the country from the EU and how public opinion would then shift amongst traditional supporters of the Union. Mind you, public attitudes sometimes just harden around the original viewpoint as well.

sammer
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: P  
Date:   Sun 3 Apr 10:21

Continuing to see horrific pictures coming out of this unjust war. I’m not going to link to them as easily found and the description is more than enough. In their supposed denazification the Russians are doing a very good impression of the worst of the nazis.

“Maria Genkin:
Pictures of some villages freed in Kyiv region, specifically Bucha, are devastating. Dead people lying outside of their houses, in what can only have been a “zachistka” - systemic execution of the men of each house. One body in front of every house.”

“Russians practiced this in Chechnya. Also pictures of men with tied hands and killed execution style in small groups. When Soviets were overtaken by Germans in 1941, they left behind prisons full of men executed in such a way.”

Show men in civilian clothes hands tied left in the street.

No-one will ever be brought to account for these atrocities.


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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Sun 3 Apr 10:50

This isn`t what defending borders looks like.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Sun 3 Apr 12:47

And still nato remains on the sidelines
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Sun 3 Apr 20:44

Quote:

P, Sun 3 Apr 10:21

Continuing to see horrific pictures coming out of this unjust war. I’m not going to link to them as easily found and the description is more than enough. In their supposed denazification the Russians are doing a very good impression of the worst of the nazis.

“Maria Genkin:
Pictures of some villages freed in Kyiv region, specifically Bucha, are devastating. Dead people lying outside of their houses, in what can only have been a “zachistka” - systemic execution of the men of each house. One body in front of every house.”

“Russians practiced this in Chechnya. Also pictures of men with tied hands and killed execution style in small groups. When Soviets were overtaken by Germans in 1941, they left behind prisons full of men executed in such a way.”

Show men in civilian clothes hands tied left in the street.

No-one will ever be brought to account for these atrocities.


Don`t worry the Russian Lord Haw Haw will be along soon telling us the Ukrainians did it to themselves.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: P  
Date:   Mon 4 Apr 06:43

Plenty eye witness accounts by the remaining families of the murders (as that is what they are) coming out now. Russia already denying it despite the evidence.

Must of thought guaranteed win would let them write history and get away with anything but not proving to be that way and you wonder what else will come out of other areas that they are pushed back from.


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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Mon 4 Apr 08:32

I’m sure they’ll be removing evidence as we speak in the areas they still hold
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: aaaaaaaaaargh  
Date:   Mon 4 Apr 10:24

I think it must be obvious to everyone that the vast majority of Ukrainian civilian deaths are actually suicides due to the shame of being nazis. They shot themselves multiple times. Then they set fire to themselves. Then they covered themselves with blankets and tyres.

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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: parsfan  
Date:   Mon 4 Apr 10:26

Quote:

aaaaaaaaaargh, Mon 4 Apr 10:24

I think it must be obvious to everyone that the vast majority of Ukrainian civilian deaths are actually suicides due to the shame of being nazis. They shot themselves multiple times. Then they set fire to themselves. Then they covered themselves with blankets and tyres.


Then drove a tank over themselves.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The universe is ruled by chance and indifference



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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: aaaaaaaaaargh  
Date:   Mon 4 Apr 11:18

Radio-controlled, pre-programmable tanks with holographic Russian soldier projections on board. The technology exists. Just google it. These spineless NATO-loving, Antonio Banderas supporting nazis will stop at nothing.

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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: P  
Date:   Mon 4 Apr 17:08

“Human Rights Watch, meanwhile, released a report documenting instances of rape and summary executions in Russian-occupied areas of Ukraine, including Bucha.”

Human rights watch - pesky renowned western propagandist’s besmirching those poor heroic Russian freedom fighters 🙄
Russia still saying, “nah never happened”

I hope sanctions continue until their economy is utterly destroyed but cheaper fuel will override all in the end.


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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Rusty Shackleford  
Date:   Mon 4 Apr 19:59

Horrendous reports coming out today and can only imagine it getting worse. I`m sure someone will be around any minute now to put it into context though.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Mon 4 Apr 21:33

There’s not much context needed when civilians have been restrained and shot dead. Cold blooded murder of civilians is no part of a soldier’s remit. The rules of war are honoured more in the breach but they are better than nothing.

I can’t find the Kremlin counter narrative about Bucha in UK media although it has been running all day on Russian TV and is covered by RT. There are three main points raised to oppose the piece of film that I think CBS were handed by Ukrainian authorities and is being shown here. RT has of course been banned in the UK, yet most of the comments BTL on this particular article are highly critical of Russian actions and hold them responsible.

Could an independent enquiry as requested by Russia at the UN, postponed today by the UK I understand but due to be heard tomorrow, establish the truth? Maybe, but the present narrative suits NATO so I wouldn’t expect any more than moral outrage.

P,
There’ s not much chance of the Russian economy collapsing given the country is self sufficient in food and fuel. Sanctions from the west are nothing new. There’s a trading bloc outside the EU happy to do business. Meanwhile the Ukraine is still pumping Russian gas into Europe.

sammer
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: red-star-par  
Date:   Mon 4 Apr 21:34

Disgusting accounts of the raping and pillaging emerging. To be honest, should expect nothing less of them, if you read about their mass rape of the countries they moved through as the Second World War drew to a close. Some harrowing accounts from then, of public rapes with husbands forced to watch before both were murdered and women of all ages being raped by 70-80 men
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: P  
Date:   Mon 4 Apr 21:51

It’s not just CBS film Sammer, the associated press are in so there are multiple crews and eye witness accounts. Despite being BBC Jeremy Bowen has been on the ground doing some impressive reporting.

There’s also drone footage of Russian tanks shooting at civilian convoys as well as eye witness accounts of that incident as well.

Every news report comes with a distressing scenes warning and there appears to be multiple brave/foolish/bat sh mental reporters from all over the place covering it.

There is way too much evidence and witnesses for it to be fabricated or staged

The Russian narrative reported here is the Kremlin made a statement to deny any wrongdoing at all, that they actually brought food and medicine to the people who welcomed them and that it is propaganda by Ukraine to escalate western tensions.




Post Edited (Mon 04 Apr 21:56)
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Mon 4 Apr 22:12

Ignoring the horrors of the war, there is an issue in the UK that started in the 70s - not actually producing much. We rely on other countries for so much. We also screwed ourselves by falling out with our closest trading partner to link up with a country thousands of miles away.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: parsfan  
Date:   Mon 4 Apr 22:28

Quote:

sammer, Mon 4 Apr 21:33

Could an independent enquiry as requested by Russia at the UN, postponed today by the UK I understand but due to be heard tomorrow, establish the truth? Maybe, but the present narrative suits NATO so I wouldn’t expect any more than moral outrage.


I`ve only seen reports of the UN requesting an independent enquiry, according to Reuters, Russia`s demand is quite different:

Russia, in turn, requested that the United Nations Security Council convene on Monday to discuss what it called a "provocation by Ukrainian radicals" in Bucha.

Not quite the same thing. Their rebuttal seems to consist of nothing more than "our enemies said it was us so it couldn`t have been".

I`m surprised you`re still banging on about NATO, I thought Putin had "destroyed" them.

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Post Edited (Mon 04 Apr 23:18)
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Tue 5 Apr 01:22

Thanks P for the background on what you are seeing in the UK. Bowen has always been prepared to put his head above the parapet in terms of war reporting and claims to have been shot a few times. So his experience cannot be denied. All BBC war correspondents are MI5 vetted but Bowen has ruffled a few feathers over Palestine so he might be one of the better ones.

The Russian narrative focuses on the time gap between the corpses being discovered and their being filmed, in respect of earlier statements made by the Mayor of Bucha, who has survived. For reasons not yet clearly established, the UK has been fingered for what is alleged to be fake news. I will await tomorrow’s developments at the UN.

War is always a crime and soldiers commit atrocities, no matter the army they represent. It could be the Russian soldiers are bang to rights in Bucha. Red Star seems to think civilian atrocities are a unique feature of Russian soldiers but if his history is accurate- and I am well versed in the occupation of Berlin 1945 yet have never stumbled on his stories- it is a very narrow window he is looking through. The citizens in Belarus in 1941 have a tale to tell about that. Ditto the people of Vietnam. And the Ukrainian army, which probably outnumbers the Russian army inside its borders, has its own skeletons rattling in cupboards but these are not for public consumption in the west for obvious reasons. Allegations of atrocities against civilians in the Donbas are featured daily on Russian TV with one of the main contributors being a free lance American reporter.

As for NATO, it’s on life support as I’ve outlined earlier. It’s the army of the dollar as reserved currency and I can’t see how it can regain the position it had 20 years ago when it embarked on a series of aggressive wars. It’s retreated from Afghanistan and can’t even enter Ukraine. If NATO had stayed as a defensive alliance in western Europe we might be living in a better world today.

sammer
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Parboiled  
Date:   Tue 5 Apr 09:10

My Father in law told me that the Russian Guard soldiers he met in Germany in WW2 were the smartest and most professional of all. Their behaviour towards civilians was impeccable, but they would warn them that the hordes following on behind were pigs.

Thousands of German women, including the old, and girls were raped and thousands more committed suicide to avoid the mass rape fate that awaited them. I wonder if Russian history books acknowledge this?

Currently there is no free press or free tv news outlets and and protesters get lifted soon as they open their mouth. I would take any reports from a so called free lance Yank with a large dose of Siberian salt.

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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Tue 5 Apr 19:18

Your father-in-law’s assessment of the Russian soldiers in Berlin is very much echoed by German women who later talked about their experience. The front line troops who captured the city were well disciplined but since they were the most effective, were soon moved on to the next battle. What followed in their wake was a bunch of louts and released prisoners, the dregs of the military, too pathetic to actually engage in face to face combat but judged adequate to hold control of territory gained.

I am sure the rapes in Berlin do not feature in either written or oral Russian history. Anymore than any other country acknowledges such behaviour. The same applies to any such behaviour by Russian or Ukrainian troops being committed right now. It is simply taboo. The narrative of ‘our boys’ being upstanding is vital to a country’s self-image, particularly during combat, and also crucial when it comes to fighting the next war. You can dig around in history and find the odd example but they were seen as a few ‘bad apples’ and usually sentenced by military courts in camera.

Despite the clampdown on MSM reporting from both NATO and Russia it is surprisingly easy to obtain a range of views online. Most UK journalists toe the official line but Craig Murray, recently released from Saughton for reporting on a political trial, wrote well yesterday. No wonder the NUJ don’t want to accept him as a member. However the problem of front line reporters being able to view events without being embedded inside the military apparatus remains. To go solo can be fatal as we have seen. Some independent reporters have ventured forth but their claims of ‘crowdfunding’ don’t necessarily make them any more reliable than their state vetted counterparts. I would welcome recommendations for reliable news.

sammer
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Tenruh  
Date:   Tue 5 Apr 20:00

[Url]https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2022/02/ukraine-how-can-the-war-end/#comments

Could only find this on his blog and it`s dated 26/2
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: parsfan  
Date:   Tue 5 Apr 23:46

Quote:

Tenruh, Tue 5 Apr 20:00

[Url]https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2022/02/ukraine-how-can-the-war-end/#comments

Could only find this on his blog and it`s dated 26/2


Try here.

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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: parsfan  
Date:   Wed 6 Apr 00:19

I`ve been thinking, very optimistically perhaps, that there might be a couple of good things to come out of all this. I wasn`t sure when would be a good time but, having just read that piece, now seems as good a time as any.

1. Speeding up of the move to renewable energy and there are signs of this happening already. It shouldn`t have to have taken not funding Putin`s war machine to focus minds, but you take the opportunity when you can. Let`s hope we don`t blow-up the planet first.

2. With everyone now so anti-Russia we, the UK, stop becoming more like them and halt our own slide into becoming a fascist state. Unfortunately, the more likely scenario is Johnson seizing the opportunity of declaring a "state of emergency" and hastening it.

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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: P  
Date:   Sat 9 Apr 08:14

Interesting article on newswatch today (which I presume is available on iplayer) about verification of war footage.

Showed how they validated the footage of bodies in Bucha and how the Russian denials are lies. Mentioned 2 Russian points - 1 that the body stood up in a rear view mirror and was a crisis actor and the other that a body moved. They showed that the footage that was accused to stand up was a curved wing mirror as buildings also distorted and they also talked about how the body moving was something on the camera lens.

They then validate the bodies and locations via other footage and then 3rd verify the locations of the bodies via satellite imagery in the days before the footage and the geolocation of them.

The forensic examination of footage is impressive but must be the most boring job in the world.

They also covered how they confirmed footage of Ukrainian soldiers shooting Russian ones in the leg which Ukraine had also denied (wasn’t aware of that one).

Be interesting to see how Russia will now try to deny launching a missile at a train station full of civilians including children when there is clear evidence for that too.

You really try to be objective and but when you see the many atrocities committed by Russia and the utter lack of remorse it’s hard to think anything else than that they really are barbaric scum


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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Sat 9 Apr 10:12

All nations who want to "project power" onto independent nations are barbaric scum.

Russia is barbaric scum, and Britain is barbaric scum. The world is, sadly, run by barbaric scum.

Funnily enough though, every single barbaric scum country is reticent about showing off their scummy barbarism on their own domestic news.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Mon 11 Apr 12:11

So Russian amassing tens of thousands for next attack.

Are we (NATO) going to stand on the sidelines and watch again given what we know now, or are we going to grow a pair and stand up to the bully this time?

Post Edited (Mon 11 Apr 12:25)
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Tenruh  
Date:   Mon 11 Apr 15:55

Why can`t Ukraine invite Nato in to keep the peace?
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Mon 11 Apr 17:15

P,
I think it’s worth the effort to try and take your own line on the conflict. There are cruder voices telling us that the binary choice is either Kiev or Moscow and that any resolution will be found only on the battlefield. These voices highlight war crimes- by their opponents naturally- to justify the next stage of military action. It’s glaringly obvious that the escalation of any war on the pretext of war crimes can only lead to more war crimes, a paradox which was grimly satirised by Orwell’s newscaster in the film version of 1984. No one is more outraged by a war crime than a warmonger whether he fights under the colours of Oceania, Eurasia, Ukraine or Russia.

https://youtu.be/oD_Bdq1MLWg

DBP,
You are surely correct to see the conflict as Russia v NATO but there are a number of problems with your suggestion. Ukraine is not a member of NATO even although it has been well supplied with weaponry and training for a number of years to fight the very reality it now faces. It suits NATO’s narrative to frame the conflict as a David and Goliath battle which contains some measure of truth and helps to unite opposition to Russia. Were NATO to send in troops then the whole narrative would change as would the position of other UN countries. Finally, it’s one thing to shout for military engagement from the sidelines but quite another matter when the inevitable casualties are fathers and sons from your own land, dying in some foreign field.


Moving military materiel around on a bloody chessboard might produce some leverage for either Moscow or Washington but any resolution will have to proceed from the Minsk accords, barely mentioned in the last two weeks.

sammer
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Mon 11 Apr 17:34

I don’t see the conflict as Russia vs NATO.

I see Russian aggression invading Ukraine, and as if the invasion itself wasn’t bad enough. I’m seeing war crimes to boot.
I’m seeing the prospect of Russia and their counterparts in China, seeing an opportunity to continue their expansion into other areas they feel belong to them unless someone stands up to them.
…And I’m seeing all the while, ukraines next door neighbour (nato) standing on the sidelines, when they should be going in - on a humanitarian level first and then to prevent bullies thinking they can operate outside normal conventions.
That might lead to Russia vs NATO, which none wants. But the prospect of doing nothing could be even worse
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Mon 11 Apr 18:37

Quote:

DBP, Mon 11 Apr 17:34

I don’t see the conflict as Russia vs NATO.

I see Russian aggression invading Ukraine, and as if the invasion itself wasn’t bad enough. I’m seeing war crimes to boot.
I’m seeing the prospect of Russia and their counterparts in China, seeing an opportunity to continue their expansion into other areas they feel belong to them unless someone stands up to them.
…And I’m seeing all the while, ukraines next door neighbour (nato) standing on the sidelines, when they should be going in - on a humanitarian level first and then to prevent bullies thinking they can operate outside normal conventions.
That might lead to Russia vs NATO, which none wants. But the prospect of doing nothing could be even worse


Pretty much sums it up. I don`t like the guy sniffing round my ex so I`m going to throw a huff, beat them up a bit and claim they made me do it. There`s more to it and you should always question the information provided, but it`s plain to see Putin is the bad guy here.

Hopefully Ukraine and Russia can come to some agreement and soon. There are people from both sides being killed for what appears to be no reason.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Tue 12 Apr 02:42

Noam Chomsky is 94 now and to be honest he was never an inspiring speaker even in his prime. However he is always lucid and his command of detail, both political and historical, remains impressive. The questioner is pretty NATO sympathetic so it makes for an interesting interview. Chomsky does not hold back on Putin`s invasion by the way.

https://youtu.be/68Rh1tKx98k

sammer
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Wed 13 Apr 12:52

So if we remain on the sidelines and watch Russia outnumber Ukraine in Mariupol… do we intend to do nothing and simply let the aggressor keep the spoils as we did before (and pretend we’re surprised when tanks roll to the next land grab)?
Or are we going to help Ukraine reclaim their sovereign lands?
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Parboiled  
Date:   Thu 14 Apr 10:06

Russia navy flagship blown up by anti ship missiles. Maybe NATO could start supplying arms and aid via Black Sea. It is international waters so they are quite entitled to do be there.
Any interference by what’s left of the Russkie one rust bucket smoke polluting carrier navy should be dealt with as self defence. Also entitled to do so.
In fact NATO would wipe the floor with them in a conventional land war as well.



Post Edited (Thu 14 Apr 10:09)
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Thu 14 Apr 21:33

Quote:

Parboiled, Thu 14 Apr 10:06

Russia navy flagship blown up by anti ship missiles. Maybe NATO could start supplying arms and aid via Black Sea. It is international waters so they are quite entitled to do be there.
Any interference by what’s left of the Russkie one rust bucket smoke polluting carrier navy should be dealt with as self defence. Also entitled to do so.
In fact NATO would wipe the floor with them in a conventional land war as well.



Being reported now that the Moskva has sunk.
Such a shame.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Thu 14 Apr 21:50

Quote:

sadindiefreak, Thu 14 Apr 21:33

Quote:

Parboiled, Thu 14 Apr 10:06

Russia navy flagship blown up by anti ship missiles. Maybe NATO could start supplying arms and aid via Black Sea. It is international waters so they are quite entitled to do be there.
Any interference by what’s left of the Russkie one rust bucket smoke polluting carrier navy should be dealt with as self defence. Also entitled to do so.
In fact NATO would wipe the floor with them in a conventional land war as well.



Being reported now that the Moskva has sunk.
Such a shame.


Wonder how long it will be until Russia says it hasn`t sunk?
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Thu 14 Apr 22:02

Quote:

moviescot, Thu 14 Apr 21:50

Quote:

sadindiefreak, Thu 14 Apr 21:33

Quote:

Parboiled, Thu 14 Apr 10:06

Russia navy flagship blown up by anti ship missiles. Maybe NATO could start supplying arms and aid via Black Sea. It is international waters so they are quite entitled to do be there.
Any interference by what’s left of the Russkie one rust bucket smoke polluting carrier navy should be dealt with as self defence. Also entitled to do so.
In fact NATO would wipe the floor with them in a conventional land war as well.



Being reported now that the Moskva has sunk.
Such a shame.


Wonder how long it will be until Russia says it hasn`t sunk?


Surprisingly it`s the Russians who have announced it has sunk. Claiming its from a fire that managed to spread to ammunition and expolded it though.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: widtink  
Date:   Thu 14 Apr 22:11

Its best to remember that in Russia...
Its not lying...
Its "state craft"
🤣


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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: parsfan  
Date:   Thu 14 Apr 23:29

I`m sure it`s all still going to plan.

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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Fri 15 Apr 10:56

Well rightly or wrongly, that news has fair cheered me up so it has
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: parsfan  
Date:   Sun 17 Apr 09:24

Quote:

sammer, Sat 16 Apr 23:46
Whether Sturgeon can handle that I very much doubt after her ultra NATO statement today which embeds her with the Azov battalion defending Ukraine as it crushed to death. She should have stayed out out it. She sounds like Zelinsky`s older sister.


Quote:

sammer, Thu 31 Mar 00:52
Wishing death on people, or voodoo, is rarely a healthy sign. More often a sign of impotence, the knee jerk reaction of a slave morality.


You must be proud of your superpower army taking only seven weeks to almost crush one battalion. A little less time spent bombarding blocks of flats, raping, pillaging and shelling refugees you have already managed it by now.

You sound like Putin`s younger brother.

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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Parboiled  
Date:   Sun 24 Apr 12:08

Odessa under attack.
Wake up Biden, they need to hold their last port and more supplies now. Get a carrier escorted convoy in before it’s too late

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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Sun 24 Apr 13:10

Quote:

Parboiled, Sun 24 Apr 12:08

Odessa under attack.
Wake up Biden, they need to hold their last port and more supplies now. Get a carrier escorted convoy in before it’s too late


Bombing residential areas, a 3 month old baby killed.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Sun 24 Apr 14:03

Agree, I would say we need to nip this in the bud bit we missed that opportunity and now Putin is getting balsy- talking up nuclear, indirectly threatening Finland / Sweden if they consider joining Nato

All the while this goes on we stand by on the sidelines while he shells civilians and on the ground they are commiting war crimes on the local civilian population

This may not be a fight we want, but it`s a fight we can`t hide from any longer
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: parsfan  
Date:   Sun 24 Apr 21:59

Quote:

DBP, Sun 24 Apr 14:03

Agree, I would say we need to nip this in the bud bit we missed that opportunity and now Putin is getting balsy- talking up nuclear, indirectly threatening Finland / Sweden if they consider joining Nato

All the while this goes on we stand by on the sidelines while he shells civilians and on the ground they are commiting war crimes on the local civilian population

This may not be a fight we want, but it`s a fight we can`t hide from any longer


I can`t see it. Leaving aside the very good chance of it escalating to a nuclear war, we just won`t get involved in anything resembling a fair fight - just as the Russians wouldn`t have started this war if they knew they`d still be fighting two months later with little to show for their efforts except 20,000 dead and their third biggest battleship at the bottom of the sea in a land war.

Asymmetric war? By all means.

The Russians on their own doorstep, going into full mobilisation, total war mode? As incompetent, unprofessional and ineffective as they`ve proven to be, not a chance.

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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Tue 26 Apr 11:00

so Russia, seeing our obvious hesitancy to get involved and stop this nonsense because we don`t want to actually engage directly with them is again taking the front foot and threatening wider war if we keep supporting Ukraine.

flames are also being stoked in moldova as Putin want`s to use his ukraine land grab to join up with regions in that country that he supports as separate.

at some point we`re going to have to stand up to him and not let him simply redraw the map with bombs and war crimes

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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Thu 12 May 09:26

After issuing a statement of intent Finland are now set to join NATO in a matter of months, if not weeks. Every chance Sweden will follow suit.

We all hate poverty, war, and injustice.
Unlike the rest of you squares.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy  
Date:   Thu 12 May 10:13

Sweden will be joining as well now that Finland has confirmed it.

Seriously considering joining the Air Force reserve over here if my knee and Swedish are up to it. Putin can ram it.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Thu 12 May 12:46

Things backfiring for Putin here...
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: parsfan  
Date:   Thu 12 May 14:46

Oh, I`m sure we`ll hear it`s more justification for their highly successful and honourable special military operation.

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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Thu 12 May 15:48

Are any of the younger generation interested?

Seems to me that they have more interest in the size of Peter Andre`s todger or what designer outfit they are wearing in court!🤔😲
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Thu 12 May 18:05

Quote:

LochgellyAlbert, Thu 12 May 15:48

Are any of the younger generation interested?

Seems to me that they have more interest in the size of Peter Andre`s todger or what designer outfit they are wearing in court!🤔😲


My son cares, he has got detention tomorrow lunchtime for kicking the 💩 out of a lad at school.
Boy was telling my son his "Nazi family in Ukraine deserve to be killed and their homes flattened"
Guidance teacher called me to say my son has detention, the Other kid has no punishment.
Told the guidance teacher I would have done the same if I was my son and I`m proud of him.
Teacher said we can`t condone violence.
Told him I knew they couldn`t but I can.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: widtink  
Date:   Thu 12 May 19:42

The reality is that Sweden and Finland have been involved with NATO for a number of years and take part in military exercises. despite not being full members they became "official partners" way back in 1994.
Been on NATO exercises with both nations a few times.
Its kinda like... They don`t have a season ticket... But they`ve been going to games regularly for years. 🤣


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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Sat 14 May 12:51

Looking at the front page of the Daily Record, does anybody care?

Ranger`s £1M kit bonanza

REALLY??????
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Sat 14 May 13:29

Obviously rangers new orange lodge away strip is off the utmost importance to their readers…

But for everyone else more concerned with what’s happening in 2022 and beyond. I see Russian troops have been pushed out of Kharkiv (Ukraine’s second city) which is good news

Is that where the Russians were going to hold a ‘referendum’ to justify their actions?

Post Edited (Sat 14 May 13:30)
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: parsfan  
Date:   Sat 14 May 17:04

Kherson I think.

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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: parsfan  
Date:   Mon 23 May 22:50

Whilst always knowing not all Russians just blindly follow the party line, it never fails to impress hearing about people from within the system who have both a conscience and the courage to speak out about it. Today a Russian diplomat, Boris Bondarev, resigned from his position at the UN.

Never have I been so ashamed of my country. Today the Ministry of Foreign Affairs is not about diplomacy, it is all about warmongering, lies and hatred. It serves interests of few, the very few people thus contributing to further isolation and degradation of my country. Russia no longer has allies, and there is no one to blame but its reckless and ill-conceived policy.

Full article here.

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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Parboiled  
Date:   Tue 24 May 07:59

Thanks for that link

He certainly doesn’t mince his words! And he may never be able to go home as long those he has castigated are around. Brave guy.



Post Edited (Tue 24 May 08:02)
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend  
Date:   Fri 10 Jun 18:03

I don’t think Russia will carry out their threat to execute the two British prisoners, but if they did, I assume that Britain would get dragged into this war?




It's bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Fri 10 Jun 19:43

Let`s say Iraq and Iran were fighting a war and Abdul and Karim, who were both British citizens, went over to fight for Iraq and were subsequently captured by the Iranians and sentenced to death. Would you be advocating for us to sending an armoured brigade over to middle East?
If Russia does decide to breach the Geneva Convention and execute these pows it will just be yet another atrocity on top of mass murder and sexual abuses they have already performed in the occupied territories. Unfortunately none of that is going to be enough for British tanks to be cruising over the steppes or destroyers firing missiles in the Black Sea. The line in the sand for British action against Russia is a long one. It will soon run from Finnish/Norwegian border in the Arctic down to the Turkish border with Georgia.

I actually just found out earlier that Ukraine has the second biggest reserves of natural gas in Europe. Most of that being located in Crimea and the eastern half of the country. Funny that isn`t it?

We all hate poverty, war, and injustice.
Unlike the rest of you squares.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend  
Date:   Mon 27 Jun 18:14

The G7 countries meet today and Russia bombs a shopping centre with possibly 1000 citizens inside.

Coincidence ?

Let’s hope Putin dies a long and painful death




It's bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Tue 28 Jun 00:31

Wishing death on a person is always a sign of weakness, so I am sure from what I have read on the forum from you over the years that is your knee jerk position. But not your considered position. You are better than that. I think you want peace, same as me.

If Vladimir Putin was replaced tomorrow, as the Daily Express has long claimed is likely any day now despite his 91% approval rating amongst the population, then he would be replaced by a more hard line militarist intent on bombing Kiev and Livov back to the stone age. That is the mood in Moscow, and I suspect the wider Russian Federation, as I write. Putin has always been a cautious, middle of the road politician hence his surviving for 20 years in the RF. The perception in Moscow is that this is a fight against NATO, therefore anything goes. If NATO puts ground troops into Ukraine then Russia will mobilise and be backed, I presume, by China if not India and Iran.

I believe that Putin will survive the European politicians who have taken their orders from NATO. Johnson is toast domestically, and Macro and Sholtz cannot survive a cold winter without Russian fuel. Is Putin a good man? Not really, he’s a politician, so judge him by that criteria. The economic sanctions against Russia have been a busted flush so far, a classic example of a circular firing squad against him. The military action from Ukraine has been no more than defensive actions followed by surrender as at Mariupol. Or ‘evacuation’ as it is called in western media. The attempt to open up the Kalingrad front, a city I know well, has been downplayed in recent days by the EU for obvious reasons. Putin is, for the moment at least, sitting in the driving seat. His troops are moving west and have been for three months.

The western media has been operating under war time restrictions despite the UK not officially being at war. This is unnecessary. They could have maintained a pro NATO line yet reported accurately what they knew, This has not been done. Friends and family of mine in the Britain are asking me for information that should be available in a free press. Such as the Ukrainian parliament is as democratic as the Nazi one controlled from March 1933 since any opponents of Zelinsky have either been arrested or banned from attending, by law. The Azov thugs outside are a good barrier to attending. His professed dream of a Zionist style Ukraine, as reported to the Israeli parliament, has also been whooshed from western media. As has the woman, Denisvoa, who shouted the Bucha massacre to the world. She has been removed by her own parliament for making unsubstantiated claims but her dismissal was only reported in the Wall Street Journal and not by UK media so far as I can gather. We are all victims of disinformation wherever we happen to live.

I want peace same as you, but I’m afraid that moment has passed. The ultra Russian military are now facing up to the hard line NATO with a country, Ukraine, that nobody gave t

sammer
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy  
Date:   Tue 28 Jun 14:45

Sammer - your posts truly amaze me to be frank.

You consistently fail to acknowledge that Russia does not have a free press and the long arm of the Kremlin reaches well into the permitted press outlets. A quick look at the Press Freedom Index will tell you that. Why is it that Russia has these laws to label organisations such as Facebook, Twitter and YouTube as "Foreign Agents" or "Extreme Organisations" again? Not exactly the sign of a nation that is confident in itself.

When it comes to Putin and his popularity, it`s actually very hard to measure. Yes, he is popular among the older generation who largely read the newspapers and rely on the radio and TV for news. Among the Younger generation, there is largely apathy to the system rather than support. When it comes to surveying, I`ve read into this quite extensively when it comes to Russia. They tend to phone people during the day and those that are home tend to be the oldies who support Putin. And with the way things are going in Russia with the judiciary, do you think that people will go on record and voice an opinion against Putin or United Russia?

You have previously called old Communists "sell outs", which would indicate that for your own part, you have some sort of nostalgia for the "good old days" of the Soviet Union. Rather similar to the Tories in the way they hark back to the idea that Britain is a Global Power. Indeed, this forms much of Putin`s mantra and whenever he feels he is weak, he starts a conflict. Chechnya when he came to power, Georgia in 2008 when the economy was declining and now Ukraine when he was facing massive protests over corruption. Strange that. Those are the actions of a scared man.

As for Putin himself, well he claims that he got the Oligarchs under control. He did this by becoming the biggest one himself. If you look at the resources that Russia has and its lack of economic progress compared to the other former Communist states, it truly is abysmal. Economic progress is widely attributed to how well the economy is managed. Where is all this natural resource money in Russia going?

When it comes to the military situation, I would criticise NATO for not using their Air Forces to destroy Russian military assets in Ukraine in the first days. They could quite easily end the war in days, but have instead allowed it to turn into a meat grinder. If you want to talk about technological capability then Russia is far behind the EU and US bar the Su-57 (none of which are actually combat capable yet) and the S400 missile systems, but are likely to be surpassed soon by the Israelis.

You really need to stop being a shill and ground yourself a bit more in reality.



Post Edited (Tue 28 Jun 14:46)
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Tue 28 Jun 16:50

Putin described as "not really a good man"? He`s ordered the murder of thousands of people!

Let`s be honest, what we`re seeing is a-hole "leaders" having a squabble but a squabble that results in the deaths of people. I don`t fully understand the end game of Russia here but it`s fair to say it`ll end in the deaths of many more.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Tue 28 Jun 18:05

All governments control the media: it’s a question of degree. The Sunday Times was asked last week to spike a story concerning Boris Johnson and his wife, and duly complied. Russia and Ukraine at the moment are acting under martial law so you would expect press freedom to be curtailed, as it was in the UK during WW2. Not that either of them were bastions of free speech before the recent conflict, as you pointed out in the case of Russia. The UK is not however at war so has less excuse for suppressing or distorting news. Taking a pro-NATO line is fair enough, but cutting and pasting press releases from the MoD about fictions such as the Ghost of Kiev or the martyrs of Snake Island is not the mark of a free press. I can still access the free websites of The Daily Express, The Daily Mail and The Guardian, although the BBC is blocked. The New York Times is available too.

I’ve visited all the Baltic countries as well as Czechoslovakia and Hungary and have not witnessed the economic disparity between them and the Russia Federation which you described. Maybe that appears on balance sheets or government budgets, but it’s not visible at street level. What you called the nostalgia for the old USSR is readily evident not just with old stagers but amongst younger Russians who have seen their economic security traded off against consumerism, but that is also common to my children’s generation in the UK, now in their 40s, who complain that ‘we’ had an easier time of it.

I don’t know how accurate your military criticism of NATO is, but politically it seems detached from reality. Ukraine has never been a member of NATO, in fact as I pointed out for much of its existence it was a potential target for NATO missiles. Any incursion by NATO troops, officially, into Ukraine will be viewed in China, India and much of the African continent as a much more blatant example of imperial conquest than anything being undertaken by Russia.

sammer
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Tue 28 Jun 19:52

Turkey now backing Finland and Sweden bids to join NATO.
Not working out quite as fascist Putler planned.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Tue 28 Jun 23:34

If Putin was fascist he would be cheering on the Azov Brigade in Ukraine, the only fascist organisation since Germany in 1933 to have been integrated in the state security apparatus. That is a fact. And never since then have these fascists seen such weapons come their way by Euro democracies to advance their cause. It’s Santa Claus time for them. Think Tommy Robinson, Luton’s sunbed king, with an armoury, or Lennie Murphy and his cut throat gang being supplied with material, something even the UVF considered beyond the Pale in the Shankill Road circa 1972. The fascists can’t believe their luck, and when they are driven out of Ukraine they are coming to a country near you. They will blame you and fanny politicians for not starting WW3 in order to liberate Ukraine, in the heroic tradition of the holocauster Bandera. He died spouting this rubbish. The CIA dumped Bandera, an antecedent of Zelensky, in 1953 but you are welcome to them.

There are 7 million Ukrainians in Europe right now, not much of an argument for stay and fight. The most militant Ukrainian battalions have either been destroyed or have surrendered as at Mariupol. Ukraine has been stuffed with NATO weapons since 2104 and trained to fight this very fight on behalf of NATO: it has failed. Weapons? Maybe, but can they fight with the rather impressive ones they had to start with? The answer seems to be no. They can delay and little more. A bad workman blames his tools.

As for Finland and Sweden joining NATO, it’s like signing up with an insurance policy going down the tubes. The owners might get a dollar bribe to help the signing (there will be no discussion worth the candle in any parliament but a few oligarchs will trouser plenty) but come reality their position is no more secure- in fact less so- than it was before they signed up.

sammer
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy  
Date:   Wed 29 Jun 05:04

Sammer - to claim that the media control in the US or Western Europe is anywhere near the same level as it is in Russia is absolutely nonsense and you know that fine well. Press freedom has gradually been eroded over the last 20 years in the Russian Federation and there are now many Russian journalists fleeing abroad to Georgia etc to avoid 15 year prison sentences for writing articles that are not Pro-Government/Putin/United Russia. The number of journalistic murders and convictions in Russia is rather staggering in comparison to other nations too...about 20 assassinated according to Western media but some sources in Russia claiming about 200. The name Anna Politkovskaya comes to mind.

Quite recently, Russia has been colluding with China in an attempt to create their own version of the "Golden Shield"/"Great Firewall", but this will very likely fail in Russia because the internet was built up without State interference unlike China where the whole infrastructure development was overseen by the CCP. As I said earlier, among a great portion of the young there is simply apathy to the system and they are very aware of how to use VPNs, so long term this will fail. Again though, not the actions of a government who are confident about their grip on power.

It`s easy enough to say that you can`t see a difference at street level in Russia, particularly from the Moscow or St. Petersburg bubble (if I remember correctly you live in Moscow). If you go outside of those two cities to other urban centres and places like Ekatrineburg or Chelyabinsk the differences are quite obvious. It`s the same as trying to claim China is "First World" from the First Tier cities like Shanghai or Shenzhen. This doesn`t address the nitty-gritty of things like purchasing power, wage levels and living costs etc. There is simply no denying that, with the resources Russia has, finance and the economy have chronically mis-managed and Russia should be doing far better than it is. In fact, Yeltsin only gave way to Putin when safe in the knowledge that he would not be prosecuted for corruption. I speculate, but I very much suspect that this is also a central pillar of Putin`s thinking behind clinging to power and I`m definitely not alone on that one.

The young Russians I know and work with have never once mentioned that their futures have been "traded away in the name of consumerism" and that very much strikes me as a statement of ideology rather than fact and pragmatism. They quite clearly mention that the money from natural resources is disappearing into the hands of politicians and the oligarchy rather than being invested in the economic development of the country through infrastructure and incentives for start-up companies. If what you say there carried any weight the same would be seen in the other post-communist states in Central and Eastern Europe, but its not. Again, economic prosperity is very much down to the ability of the government to manage and direct growth - th

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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy  
Date:   Wed 29 Jun 05:05

continued.... - the Asian miracle economies of Japan, Korea and Taiwan demonstrate this very clearly and Estonia is probably the best example in Europe.

When it comes to China and India, I think you`re barking up the wrong tree. China`s economy is in quite a dire state with debt and property bubbles and foreign companies are actively moving production out of China to other countries in the region, which is going to hinder growth. The refusal of the CCP to liberalise for fear of losing power and the lasting effects of the one child policy will be their downfall, rather similar to the Soviet Union in the 90s, but the question is when. Put on top of that the world is rather annoyed at China for the whole Covid thing, greater knowledge of oppression and the Chinese surveillance state and yeah...not good for foreign investment. I reckon India will come much more in line with the EU and US in the coming years because relations with China are certainly not good and there is military build-up and skirmishes between India and China in the East. More and more African nations are waking up to the debt traps of China`s Belt and Road and choosing the EU and US initiatives instead, but this will take time to become more visible - Ghana is one that springs to mind.

Russia is one of the world`s great nations and it has been chronically corrupted and denied a prosperous future by a man who is effectively a paranoid wee gangster. The same can be said for China, except there its a cartel akin to the Nazi party.

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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Wed 29 Jun 07:57

So just skirting round Putin causing the needless deaths of thousands of people, the destruction of homes and the displacement of millions of Ukrainian citizens then?

This isn`t a game of Risk!
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend  
Date:   Wed 29 Jun 09:34

Sorry, Sammer. The man has blood on his hands. Many innocent Ukrainians have either lost their lives, been displaced from their country or been abused and raped.

He is a war criminal and should be held accountable




It's bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: aaaaaaaaaargh  
Date:   Wed 29 Jun 10:13

But you don`t understand, Raymie. The EU is a busted flush and will be gone by the end of the decade, Tommy Robinson likes sunbeds, , and the Ukrainian army has an overt extreme right-wing arm, unlike all other national armies who are tree-hugging lefties. If this doesn`t convince you that bombing shopping centres is necessary, then I don`t know what will.

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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Wed 29 Jun 15:37

The company I work for delivers news services within some of its products and we had to stop providing them in Russia after their laws regulating news came into force to protect us and our staff in Russia.

The fact you can`t call the invasion an invasion or a war without running the risk of up to 15 years in jail says all you need to know about current levels of freedom of speech in Russia. That doesn`t mean the UK isn`t entirely faultless in this area but we`re not as bad as Russia.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Wed 29 Jun 16:50

I watch this girl, who gives a realistic view of what`s happening in Russia.

https://youtube.com/c/NikiProshin

Post Edited (Wed 29 Jun 16:51)
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Thu 30 Jun 00:26

HJ,
The notion that the UK has a freer press than Russia or any other country on NATO’s hit list holds little water. Julian Assange is about to be handed over to the US gulag (1 in 5 prisoners in the world are incarcerated inside the USA) whilst Luke Harding, The Guardian’s warmonger in chief who took and published data from Assange, is free to scream for direct military intervention in Ukraine. It’s all about shared values apparently, despite the fact that the UK does not have a mass incarceration programme, has no death penalty and no ban on abortion, nor the right to carry automatic rifles in the street. Former weapons inspector David Kelly is not available for comment.

Should Russians be better off? Of course, but I have never seen any riches in the streets of Tallinn, Budapest or Riga. The powerful rip off the poor; we both worked that out about the age of 18. No food banks in Moscow yet, so maybe it is a bit backward after all since they are all the rage in the EU. The ‘miracle’ economies you mentioned are all reliant on the fiction of printing dollars which is coming to an end as I write. There’s been no gold to underwrite the paper dollar since 1971, just raw materials and trade that the USA is desperately trying to control via its banking and tanking services worldwide.

Raymie,
I am sure we were both brought up Christians so that’s’ why I replied the way I did. Your feelings are easy to understand regarding Vlad Putin but he is a politician same as Blair or Bush were. They order death when it suits; Blair was recently knighted by the Queen for his efforts in Afghanistan and Iraq, with a death toll of at least 1 million, and the demonstration against him was less than one hundred I have read. Not much moral outrage on show outside Windsor Castle.

LPF,
I think Nikki is actually a bloke, complaining about rising prices in the supermarket. My mum was doing this inside the Co-op at Abbey View back in the 1960s. Moscow prices of fags at £2 a packet and vodka at £1.30 a shot are still manageable, for the time being.

sammer
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Thu 30 Jun 10:06

That one wasn`t me 😉
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Thu 30 Jun 12:11

Great to hear things are going so well in Russia whilst they murder all those Ukrainians.

I suppose it`s a bit like the UK under Tony Blair. At least that invasion had some sort of reasoning behind it. I still don`t understand what Putin seeks to achieve by invading Ukraine other than annoying NATO countries.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Thu 30 Jun 16:07

Huge gas reserves in eastern Ukraine and Crimea. That`s what it`s about, resources and influence. Couldn`t have the Ukrainians piping that into Europe and cutting off Russian leverage and cash flow. Ironically enough that is exactly what has happened though.

We all hate poverty, war, and injustice.
Unlike the rest of you squares.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Thu 30 Jun 18:31

Quote:

The One Who Knocks, Thu 30 Jun 16:07

Huge gas reserves in eastern Ukraine and Crimea. That`s what it`s about, resources and influence. Couldn`t have the Ukrainians piping that into Europe and cutting off Russian leverage and cash flow. Ironically enough that is exactly what has happened though.


Another reason to move away from fossil fuels and move towards solar, wind, hydro. Doesn`t fully solve the issue and still need to store that energy, which requires minerals from places like Africa and Australia.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: parsfan  
Date:   Thu 30 Jun 22:15

Quote:

sammer, Tue 28 Jun 00:31
Wishing death on a person is always a sign of weakness, so I am sure from what I have read on the forum from you over the years that is your knee jerk position. But not your considered position. You are better than that. I think you want peace, same as me.


That sanctimonious spiel again? From the guy who reveled in the deaths of hundreds of foreigners among the 35 killed in a Russian missile attack on a training base early in the war. The people you fantasied about being killed that day had come to help a democracy against a much larger aggressor but you called them Nazis. What`s the "logic"? Russians fought the Nazis, your erstwhile allies, 80 years ago so therefor anyone who fights Russians now is a Nazi.

I don`t wish to speak for Raymie, but I suspect the peace he would wish for is different from yours, ie one that doesn`t involve the enslavement of the Ukrainian people.


Quote:

sammer, Tue 28 Jun 00:31
The military action from Ukraine has been no more than defensive actions followed by surrender as at Mariupol. Or ‘evacuation’ as it is called in western media.


The defeat of the would-be imperial Russian army outside Kiyv was more than defensive. How did the Russian media describe that "evacuation"? As for Mariupol, I remember the people who were evacuated from there being described as "evacuated" and those who surrendered "surrendered". Were you upset when they`re weren`t all "crushed to death" as you hoped? Never mind, you`ve got the prospect of the execution of prisoners of war to look forward to.


Quote:

sammer, Tue 28 Jun 18:05
Any incursion by NATO troops, officially, into Ukraine will be viewed in China, India and much of the African continent as a much more blatant example of imperial conquest than anything being undertaken by Russia.


Well, regardless of how much certainty you state that it doesn`t stop it being utter nonsense. Not that it`ll ever happen, but any NATO troops in Ukraine would have been invited in, and welcomed, by the legitimate government there and the Ukrainian people. You`re utterly deluded if you think India will come out any stronger against the West than they have done against you. China, while maybe making some supportive noises, are quite happy with you burning yourselves out and becoming their subordinate.


Quote:

sammer, Tue 28 Jun 23:34
If Putin was fascist he would be cheering on the Azov Brigade in Ukraine.


Why? They`re fighting against him. That`s like saying communist countries can`t go to war against each other, or republics or monarchies or Islamic countries. I think you and your like put far too much into the Azov thing, it`s hardly justifies the whole scale slaughter and destruction you`ve inflicted on Ukraine. Similarly, the politics of an anti-communist from 70 years ago has no bearing on what`s happening now. Face it, the Ukrainian people don`t want to be ruled by Russia, whether the old imperial one, communist USSR or the modern day pseudo-fascist new-imperial one. They`ve been there and now have had a glimpse of the West and that`s the way they want to go. It`s not perfect, far from it, but you seem to think that a brutalist authoritarian mafia state is the only acceptable alternative to Utopia (or maybe they`re the same thing to you - cheap booze, fags and free heating, what more could you want?).


Quote:

sammer, Tue 28 Jun 23:34
There are 7 million Ukrainians in Europe right now, not much of an argument for stay and fight.


Yeah, all those women should have stayed at home to be raped by your brave boys and have their children stolen into mother Russia to have the love of Putin beaten into them.


Quote:

sammer, Tue 28 Jun 23:34
Ukraine has been stuffed with NATO weapons since 2104 and trained to fight this very fight on behalf of NATO: it has failed. Weapons? Maybe, but can they fight with the rather impressive ones they had to start with? The answer seems to be no. They can delay and little more. A bad workman blames his tools.


If Russia hadn`t invaded in 2014 none of that would have happened and they`d have been as ill prepared for this year`s invasion as they were then. You made the mistake of thinking it would be as easy now as it was then. The Ukrainians are fighting on their own behalf because they want their country to be a free independent one. European countries and others in NATO are helping them because they learnt the very painful lesson of what happens when you appease aggressors back in the 1930s and 40s. You`ll doubtless counter that by saying Russia suffered more than any other country and killed more Germans than anyone else so can`t be the bad guys here, but that`s like the Israelis hiding behind the Holocaust to absolve them of their treatment of the Palestinians. While on the subject, the Russian way of urban war in Syria and Ukraine almost makes Israel`s recurring incursions into Gaza look quite benign - you can bet Mark Regev will be on our screens making that comparison in the next year or two.

I`ve not noticed the Ukrainians blaming their weapons for dragging your three day walk-over war into its fifth month, only that they don`t have enough of them or the ammunition. I might well have missed it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The universe is ruled by chance and indifference



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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Fri 1 Jul 22:38

Plenty of sound and fury there, signifying that NATO’s involvement in Ukraine is going rather badly. The sanctions to isolate Russia have not just failed, they have actually boomeranged back on western economies. The Russian populace has not taken to the streets in a colour revolution to overthrow the government. In fact the leaders of major EU countries look to be in more political peril themselves once winter begins. Zelensky’s vow not to surrender one inch of Ukrainian territory looks rather empty now that he has lost 20% of his country inside three months, has lost most of his better industrial and agrarian assets and rules a country that has become effectively landlocked.

If you think negotiation equates to appeasement then maybe you are prepared to fight to the last Ukrainian. Zelensky was given a weapon to stop this conflict as late as 19th February. It’s called a pen. Scholtz had brokered a deal of sorts but Zelensky was unwilling, or perhaps unable, to sign. At that point Ukraine had not lost one inch of territory or one civilian in a mass exodus. We don’t know the details but presumably it was some rough kind of compromise hammered out that would have included Ukraine agreeing neutrality along the lines of Austria or Finland (as was.) Hardly enslavement. That kind of deal is now in what Trotsky once called the dustbin of history, unfortunately. Realistically, the best Ukraine can hope for from the present perspective is partition although Kuleba, the MoD, the Pentagon and The Daily Express still believe a march on Crimea is possible.

I never revelled in the death of what you call ‘foreign fighters’ or what I would term mercenaries and fascist legionnaires. But I won’t mourn their passing either. Hardly very Christian but not quite the same as wishing death on them. The Brits convicted in Donbas should be treated as criminals, unlike captured Ukrainian armed forces who are prisoners of war. Since Russia does not have the death penalty then the newly established republics should follow suit, otherwise they are on the road to Guantanamo Bay.

sammer
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Sun 3 Jul 14:04

Sammer, why do you feel it`s acceptable for Russia to be in Ukraine at all? From where I`m sat it`s the equivalent of me telling my neighbour they can`t have the bottom of my garden and then the neighbour firebombing it. In that analogy you`re living in the neighbours house and blaming me for not signing the land over.

All I`m hearing from you is glee that Russia is "winning", but no real clarity on what it`s winning at.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Sun 3 Jul 15:12

Going by the numbers of civilians that have been killed in this invasion I find his defence disgusting!
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Sun 3 Jul 15:29

Quote:

sammer, Fri 1 Jul 22:38

The Brits convicted in Donbas should be treated as criminals, unlike captured Ukrainian armed forces who are prisoners of war. Since Russia does not have the death penalty then the newly established republics should follow suit, otherwise they are on the road to Guantanamo Bay.


The Brits you speak of have been in the Ukrainian military since 2018 and have partners/wives who are Ukrainian.
Another 2 Brits have been captured since, one again married to a Ukrainian, the other was delivering humanitarian aid the old people unable to flee the fighting. Both face the death penalty.
My ex wife was telling me that in the occupied hometown of Berdyansk where everyone previously spoke Russian they are all now speaking only Ukrainian. People who were in favour of closer ties with Russia over the EU now hate Russia.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Sun 3 Jul 22:35

If Russia/Ukraine was a neighbourly dispute over territory then the situation would not have degenerated the way it has. There were well-intentioned people in the street, such as France, Germany and Turkey, who wanted to defuse the situation in Donbas. Unfortunately a non-neighbour from the far side of town has been fuelling the conflict for eight years by supplying American pit bull terriers to bark and snarl at Russia’s front gate. These pit bulls were biting Russians unwise enough to stray beyond their territory but have now been either destroyed, muzzled, or have scuttled back from whence they came. So now the cry is out: ‘Send more pit bulls!’ I suspect they will fare no better than those before them.

Civilian casualties are never justifiable so they are simply ignored by armies, confident that military censorship of the media will limit photographic evidence. The only civilian casualties I have seen on Russian TV are victims of the retreating Azov crew in Mariupol and casualties from sporadic rocket attacks launched from Ukraine into areas now controlled by Russia. I would assume the mirror opposite is the case in NATO countries.

Russia has succeeded in driving NATO weaponry from its southern flank, acknowledged by NATO’s desire to open up a northern flank via Sweden, (or ‘Switzerland’ as Biden called it last week) Finland plus a Baltic front facing Kaliningrad. Since Biden was quite recently crowing about the Russian ruble becoming rubble, and others were excited at the prospect of Russian citizens resorting to eating grass, I am entitled to some schadenfreude at his discomfort.

If the captured Brits are bona fide Ukrainian soldiers then they should be treated same as the rest. I’m never convinced though by stories of ‘father of four from Plymouth’ who goes into a war zone to undertake ‘humanitarian’ work. One captured Brit was reported as resigning from the UK army in February and turning up in Ukraine in March. Not that Russia can afford to be too sniffy about mercenaries; names like Leslie, Hamilton and Gordon have all served the country at high military levels in the past, with Samuel Greig from Inverkeithing attaining the rank of Admiral in the Russian Imperial Navy.

sammer
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: parsfan  
Date:   Sun 3 Jul 23:43

Quote:

sammer, Fri 1 Jul 22:38
I never reveled in the death of what you call ‘foreign fighters’ or what I would term mercenaries and fascist legionnaires. But I won’t mourn their passing either. Hardly very Christian but not quite the same as wishing death on them. The Brits convicted in Donbas should be treated as criminals, unlike captured Ukrainian armed forces who are prisoners of war.


It looks like I owe you an apology on your comments with reference to the training base missile attack. Some untruths, exaggeration and triumphalism in the comment I misremembered but no reveling:

Quote:

sammer, Tue 15 Mar 20:52
In one of his better targeted missile attacks he’s even managed to kill over a hundred foreign fascists in a training camp.


So, sorry for that - I should have looked it up to quote it...and then go back to my previous challenge the last time you made that statement I described as sanctimonious:  

Quote:

sammer, Fri 1 Jul 22:38
Whether Sturgeon can handle that I very much doubt after her ultra NATO statement today which embeds her with the Azov battalion defending Ukraine as it [is] crushed to death.


That sounds to me very much like you relishing the prospect.

It`s not just me that calls them foreign fighters you`ve done the same yourself:

Quote:

sammer, Sat 12 Mar 13:17
Tales of foreign fighters make good news stories but rarely translate into numbers of any relevance. Ukraine announced it had 20,000 fighters arriving last week, so Russia countered that with 15,000 this week.


I did so as they`re foreign to Ukraine and there to fight. Everything I`ve read and heard about them is that they`re there to help a democratic country fight for its freedom against a much larger aggressor. If, as you continually state, they`re fascists then I fail to see what their motivation to go there would be. What makes you call them fascists? These thousands of people that you know nothing about other than they`ve volunteered to risk their lives for others` liberty.

I don`t even think mercenary is that applicable. They`re not there for the money, although once enlisted in the Ukrainian military I imagine they do get paid something - but it won`t be much.

What`s your take on the Syrians, are they mercenaries? I can understand why Assad is happy to allow his countrymen to go, kill and die for Putin but what of the troops themselves? Given your apparent distaste for mercenaries, how do feel about Putin`s own mercenary army - The Wagner Group? Now that does sound Nazi, being named after Hitler`s favourite composer. Is Syria itself a fascist country? I imagine you`ll say not, they`re on your side after all and in World War II The USSR...well, you know the rest. I bet you`d say they are if, all other things being equal, they were siding with Ukraine.

You say the Brits in the Ukrainian army should be tried as criminals. That`s enough for a police state perhaps, "you`re a criminal, go to jail", but it`s committing specific crimes that makes someone a criminal in the free world. What crimes would you have them charged with?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The universe is ruled by chance and indifference



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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Mon 4 Jul 01:28

Quote:

parsfan, Sun 3 Jul 23:43

Given your apparent distaste for mercenaries, how do feel about Putin`s own mercenary army - The Wagner Group? Now that does sound Nazi, being named after Hitler`s favourite composer.



Wagner group are actual Nazis. Here`s a picture of the leader of Wagner Group with the fascist Putin.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: red-star-par  
Date:   Mon 4 Jul 15:43

I used to enjoy Sammers posts on football, and sometimes his musings on life. I always try and seek out the real news, getting my news from various sources to try and get a rounded view of what the real story is. Sammer comes across as truly brainwashed by Russian media on this subject though, it`s pretty sad reading. He has become dafc.nets very own Lord Haw Haw
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Mon 4 Jul 15:45

Quote:

red-star-par, Mon 4 Jul 15:43

I used to enjoy Sammers posts on football, and sometimes his musings on life. I always try and seek out the real news, getting my news from various sources to try and get a rounded view of what the real story is. Sammer comes across as truly brainwashed by Russian media on this subject though, it`s pretty sad reading. He has become dafc.nets very own Lord Haw Haw


Or Sinister Sammer.
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 Re: Ukraine invasion under way
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Mon 4 Jul 23:08

So Russia`s reasoning is based on the US giving Ukraine weapons to protect its border, a border that wouldn`t need protected if someone didn`t attack it?

Have to say, these reasons keep getting better and better. S Russia, one of the biggest and most powerful countries in the world was scared of tiny Ukraine? Come off it, we all know it must be to do with trade or oil/gas. Ukraine has something Russian wants.
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