|
|
Topic Originator: Parboiled
Date: Tue 12 Sep 14:48
Up 7% on same period January - June last year. Let the excuses, deflection, blame game etc from Scotgov begin…
Post Edited (Tue 12 Sep 14:55)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Tue 12 Sep 15:26
Why the exclamation mark? You seem pleased.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Tue 12 Sep 16:30
With the safe consumption rooms about to become a reality I`d expect this figure to start dropping.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Tue 12 Sep 17:57
It depends if they`re used. There`s some ambiguity around their legality. I believe the use of drugs within them is still illegal but you can`t be prosecuted. That may not be correct though so don`t quote me on that!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Andrew283
Date: Wed 13 Sep 13:33
Quote:
Parboiled, Tue 12 Sep 14:48
Up 7% on same period January - June last year. Let the excuses, deflection, blame game etc from Scotgov begin…
Can we ban this wankstain? Guy just loves stroking himself over people dying. It`s beyond cringe worthy
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Parboiled
Date: Wed 13 Sep 14:00
Alistair Jack said during Scottish questions today he would not seek to block the Scotgov consumption rooms trial.
Tommy Sheppard pressed the point saying Jack had form in intervening in Scotgov decisions and asked Jack to confirm he would not legislate to interfere with or block the trial
A definite “yes” from Jack. Cue crestfallen mugs from the Nats whose only interest to was weaponise the issue to pick a fight.
So get on with it. It’ll just be another total eff up like everything else these incompetent eejits get their mitts on.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Wed 13 Sep 14:27
What are you doing if not `weaponising` it and why don`t you ever cast your eyes south at the `incompetent eejits` down there??
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Wed 13 Sep 15:28
Just to keep people right:
Request for amendments to the Misuse of Drugs Act were suggested by the Scottish Government in 2021.
Amendments were rejected by Westminster with Johnson saying they would instead go after drug dealers.
SG response was to seek legal guidance.
LA has now essentially green lit consumption rules.
Westminster won`t intervene because they can`t. They correctly say drug consumption rooms aren`t the only solution but fail to highlight they are ONE solution to reducing drug deaths.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy
Date: Wed 13 Sep 19:11
Honestly, I really don`t get why Parboiled doesn`t just leave Scotland if it`s so Anglophobic and terribly run!
That said, I guess it does reflect what I experienced working in England, which - the Imperialist superiority complex notwithstanding - was that people moan like buggery but have no solutions or grit to actually fix things. Moreover, appearing to celebrate that more folk have died than a previous quarter is genuinely pathetic.
Fixing the drug deaths issue simply isn`t going to happen overnight and there will have to be a degree of experimentation to figure out which approach(es) are right.
Personally, I always wondered about the feasibility of a mandatory 90 or 180 day treatment order, whereby those caught using heroin (or any drug for that matter) could be detained, treated and rehabilitated properly and for long enough so that they can stay clean. It would quite likely though interfere with a person`s legal right to reject medical treatment and this puts you on the slippery slope toward arguments about civil liberties and so on.
My mother actually works as a Criminal Justice Social Worker and so I`ve had many an interesting conversation with her about this subject. She is quite adamant that the Methadone scheme doesn`t work and suggested this could be an option. She also states that a big part of the issue is that addicts will often return to their home areas following treatment and encounter the same circumstances that got them there in the first place. Forcing someone to relocate however is another potential legal obstacle and could prevent someone from working based on whatever skill set they might have.
Creating the infrastructure for this would need to be a nationwide project with treatment centres across the country and then there comes the fact that these "treatment facilities" would be considered temporary and so they`d have to be designed in a way that they could be relatively re-purposed or downsized as the problem is gradually solved. Then you`d also have to think about the training for the staff and what kind of staffing you`d need in terms of medical training etc.
In terms of funding, legalising cannabis and taxing it properly could be an option and there are several of the US states that could be used for potential financial projections of what could be brought in in revenues. I`d guesstimate though that cannabis use is more prevalent per capita in the US than it is in Scotland but I could be wrong.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Wed 13 Sep 20:03
Agree more needs done around rehabilitation but we also need to solve the problems that lead people into addiction in the first place.
I`m not a researcher, but it would be interesting to compare the likes of Glasgow, which creates a massive spike in drug deaths in Scotland, with a similarly affected area of England or Wales. Many areas across the UK had the backside ripped out them in the 70s and 80s but Glasgow seems to have been adversely affected. Why is this? It`s not to do with money (Glaswegians receive more government funding than people in Dunfermline, for example). It`s not to do with opportunity either as Glasgow is a more prosperous city than somewhere like Blackpool or Bradford.
So what is it? The only thing I can think of is Glasgow is a pretty grim city. Pleasant Victorian centre surrounded by post-war council estates and a motorway that runs through the middle of it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Thu 14 Sep 10:53
Quote:
hurricane_jimmy, Wed 13 Sep 19:11
Honestly, I really don`t get why Parboiled doesn`t just leave Scotland if it`s so Anglophobic and terribly run!
Because he gets all the additional perks of living here…..same reason my English Aunt, whos been retired 5 years and spends half her time in her camper van in Spain, is registered as living at my cousins in Stepps…..she lived her whole life in Yorkshire 😂
Post Edited (Thu 14 Sep 10:54)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Parboiled
Date: Thu 14 Sep 11:44
I am quite touched by the interest, but not as touched as those who express it..!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy
Date: Thu 14 Sep 17:15
Dave - You`re probably spot on.
Parboiled - An auld Tory making jokes about younger folk being touched? I`d tread lightly there if I were you...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Thu 14 Sep 22:59
Quote:
hurricane_jimmy, Wed 13 Sept 19:11
Personally, I always wondered about the feasibility of a mandatory 90 or 180 day treatment order, whereby those caught using heroin (or any drug for that matter) could be detained, treated and rehabilitated properly and for long enough so that they can stay clean. It would quite likely though interfere with a person`s legal right to reject medical treatment and this puts you on the slippery slope toward arguments about civil liberties and so on.
My mother actually works as a Criminal Justice Social Worker and so I`ve had many an interesting conversation with her about this subject. She is quite adamant that the Methadone scheme doesn`t work and suggested this could be an option. She also states that a big part of the issue is that addicts will often return to their home areas following treatment and encounter the same circumstances that got them there in the first place. Forcing someone to relocate however is another potential legal obstacle and could prevent someone from working based on whatever skill set they might have.
This wouldn`t work because addiction is very often a symptom of trauma, and forcing traumatised people into treatment centres against their will only serves to further their trauma and reduce their ability to trust others. You'd be sending them back into the world clean, but more traumatised and with a reduced sense of trust, particularly for health services.
Traumatised people have a very difficult time living in their own heads, and if they have self medicated with heroin, or alcohol, or crack before then they probably will again, even after going through forced-rehab-prison.
Sadly, their is no such thing as forced trauma therapy
A lot of people I work with who have addictions would willingly move to a different area if it was made easy mind you. That way they could escape debts and have a new set of dealers with a zero tab, because it`s not the individuals that they are returning to, it is the culture and that culture exists in every town and city in Scotland. On the extreme end of this is alcohol addiction; where would someone go in Scotland where boozing wasn`t part of the culture?
The enemy travels by private jet, not by dinghy.
Post Edited (Thu 14 Sep 23:05)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy
Date: Thu 14 Sep 23:02
Genuinely curious Wotsit - as somebody who works quite closely with this, what would you suggest as solutions?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Thu 14 Sep 23:35
Much, much better psychology funding. Without going into literal psychobabble, I`m a fan of the theory that addiction, along with all other human psychology, is governed by our relationships with others (and, sometimes, stuff like addictive substances, teddy bears or computers) and that using psychotherapy to help people to better understand those relationships is the best way to overcome trauma and therefore addiction in a lasting way.
Reduce poverty. Childhood trauma is linked to poverty very strongly, so breaking that link is essential. Traumatised parents often traumatise their kids, generating a cycle of poverty where multiple generations of the same family live the same chaotic and destructive lifestyle.
Decriminalisation for personal use and prescription of clean, properly dosed morphine for heroin addicts. Methadone is much worse for people than morphine. It`s more addictive for starters. If people with addictions are able to access clean, properly dosed morphine then they are unlikely to use dealers nearly as much and are much less likely to overdose. Harm reduction works and it wasn`t so long ago that the Daily Mail brigade was up in arms about needle exchanges, yet no-one even mentions them now.
Appropriate housing. Currently in Edinburgh we have a load of B&Bs crammed full of people with chaotic lifestyles and addictions. People have no chance in these places. If they`re not addicted to something when they go in, they probably will be by the time they leave.
There aren`t any cheap or easy solutions unfortunately. Some cost a lot of money and one costs very little cash-wise, but would probably burn through a lot of political capital for whoever tries to enact it.
The enemy travels by private jet, not by dinghy.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Wed 20 Sep 08:22
Sad drug related death at Inverkeithing High School yesterday. Why are kids taking drugs in school? Whatever happened to all the education adverts on the effects of drug and alcohol?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Fri 29 Sep 18:32
The tone of the adverts is wrong.
It always is.
If you tell people that "drugs are bad" then people take some drugs anyway and discover that they are actually pretty good, at least initially, and they tell their pals then their pals are obviously going to believe their peers over the government. Otherwise new people wouldn`t keep taking them.
We need to be more honest about drugs.
For example, one of the main reasons people take drugs is to self medicate for poor mental health.
We need to say that they are actually not so bad in the first place, great even, but if you feel the need to take some more than once in a while then that is probably an indicator of poor psychological wellbeing meaning that you should engage with the freely available, approachable mental health provision which is available in every society with has a rational approach to addiction prevention.
That`s not cheap though, so when folk vote they have to balance how much they want a society with fewer people dealing with addiction vs how much they want to pay less tax.
Post Edited (Fri 29 Sep 18:34)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Fri 29 Sep 19:21
If I read Wotsit correctly he is saying that drug abuse is a symptom rather than a cause of a social problem. He`ll hear no arguments from me if that is the case. His emphasis on social relationships is surely the area that has to be addressed and that requires financial intervention.
I do take issue with this statement however:
`For example, one of the main reasons people take drugs is to self medicate for poor mental health.`
In my own case I have taken legal drugs (alcohol and nicotine) in order to PREVENT falling victim to poor mental health. I`ve enjoyed the social interaction offered by both drugs (you can still get a good smokers` craic outside most bars even in these puritanical times)and can still overtake the odd runner on my daily jogging, which is possibly another drug for all I know.
It`s not the drugs themselves that kill and that is the weakness in the argument of the Holy Willies who legislate on behalf of the public. Last I heard, Mick Jagger and Keith Richard are still alive and kicking which surely makes them over the UK average for life expectancy.
sammer
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Fri 29 Sep 20:38
I agree that heroin addiction in particular is, in and of itself, a pretty benign thing pysiologically speaking.
However, the social/psychological conditions which lead a person in our society towards habitual opiate misuse are not comparible to the Libertine ideal of clean, properly dosed, medically pure morphine in which rock stars reside.
I am in no doubt that providing said clean, properly dosed morphine for those who need it might help prevent a lot of deaths mind you: I`m not opposed to the Libertine ideal, as long as it doesn`t only apply to some arbritrary vanguard.
The enemy travels by private jet, not by dinghy.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Fri 29 Sep 20:57
There are lots of rock stars who have survived drug addiction and gone on to lead long lives. Isn`t it likely they were able to pay for the treatment less fortunate addicts couldn`t afford?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Fri 29 Sep 22:19
Money can buy a solution to many problems but I don`t know if addiction is one of them. Jim Baxter and George Best were given a second chance through fundraising but neither of them succeeded in overcoming their addiction.
sammer
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Sat 30 Sep 06:17
Treating the physiological symptoms is not the same thing as treating the addiction.
Also, alcohol misuse has a much worse physiological impact than opiates.
The enemy travels by private jet, not by dinghy.
Post Edited (Sat 30 Sep 06:19)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Andrew283
Date: Sat 30 Sep 17:23
Quote:
Wotsit, Sat 30 Sep 06:17
Treating the physiological symptoms is not the same thing as treating the addiction.
Also, alcohol misuse has a much worse physiological impact than opiates.
And certainly worse than that hyper dangerous Class B (wtf?) drug, Cannabis. Government are out their feeble little minds
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Parboiled
Date: Wed 11 Sep 15:13
Now highest for 15 years. “We are making progress” blethers Jenni Minto Public Heaith minister.
And I’m walking backwards for Xmas. Who’s gonna reach their target first?
Post Edited (Wed 11 Sep 15:20)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Thu 12 Sep 08:13
Current indicators are largely pointless. You won`t see a marked change in drug deaths for potentially years but the key thing is to act now to protect the next generation. Unfortunately, I`ve seen almost no action taken in my lifetime. If anything, things are worse, and that`s regardless of who has been in power. There`s a mental health crisis making things even worse as people self medicate. We don`t have enough people in the social work and care sector to support this. Weirdly, we had plenty to bail out banks, fund wars and give away for dodgy PPE.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Parboiled
Date: Thu 12 Sep 10:36
oops silly me..it was actually deaths linked to alcohol that Minto was being interviewed about.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Thu 12 Sep 10:42
Sorry Jake I`m maybe misunderstanding your post. Current indicators would be pointless if action had been taken but you don`t think any action has been taken in your lifetime so surely those indicators are valid. If no action has been taken why would you expect to see a marked change in drug deaths?
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Thu 12 Sep 13:40
There was a huge spike in heroin use in the 1990s, the so-called Trainspotting Generation.
The vast majority of that cohort are not going to stop using, they have been at it for 30 years or so now and would already have stopped if they were ever going to.
That generation is, sadly, lost. Even if they die in an accident they are all going to have drugs mentioned on their death certificates and they are all going to be a part of the drug death statistics when they die, and they are all at, or over, the life expectancy for a long-term heroin user in Scotland.
Scotland also has unique cultural stuff going on in the drug-using community. Scottish addicts inject way more often (and way more different substances) than other places for example. It`s been that way for a long time too - older folk will remember "jellies" and how many folk lost legs from injecting them.
We also have a pretty unhealthy relationship with alcohol in this country and addiction doesn`t care about your history. It is interesting to hear the backgrounds of the "jakeys" hanging out in Edinburgh - I expect that a lot of folk would be surprised.
Whilst we should definitely be supporting those currently in addiction and adopting a medical model based on harm-reduction, my view is that if we take our eye off the ball in terms of prevention then we will be facing a new Trainspotting Generation. The pandemic has already impacted the mental health of young people in ways that are only starting to be apparent and there`s a really high chance that they will turn to drugs before too long as a way to self medicate.
Post Edited (Thu 12 Sep 14:58)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Thu 12 Sep 14:31
Quote:
The One Who Knocks, Thu 12 Sept 10:42
Sorry Jake I`m maybe misunderstanding your post. Current indicators would be pointless if action had been taken but you don`t think any action has been taken in your lifetime so surely those indicators are valid. If no action has been taken why would you expect to see a marked change in drug deaths?
What I mean is current indicators likely relate to how things were a generation ago rather than right now. It`s a highly complex thing to do analysis on so even measuring the impact of something like an anti-drugs campaign would be hard to do. Even if looking back, drug use can be multi-generational.
In terms of success, you could argue that drug deaths beginning to plateau is "good" but then what we need to see is significant reductions. The only way of achieving this is understanding why people turn to drugs in the first place and attempting to resolve the triggers. Unfortunately, the triggers are usually related to poverty and childhood trauma, both of which are very difficult issues.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: moviescot
Date: Thu 12 Sep 22:02
Quote:
Parboiled, Thu 12 Sep 10:36
oops silly me..it was actually deaths linked to alcohol that Minto was being interviewed about.
Since the SNP came to power alcohol related deaths have fallen by 140 from 1417 - Around 10%. Since 2006 to 2022 in England it has risen by 2951 deaths (59%). Wales has increased by 146(43%) in the same period.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Fri 13 Sep 07:24
Alcohol is often forgotten, perhaps intentionally so as issues with alcohol are highest in England but also lowest (per head) for interventions. I`m not aware of what interventions they have in England but the rates of alcoholism appear to have been on the up since 2007/8.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Parboiled
Date: Fri 13 Sep 09:04
The % per population for each part of the UK is the stat that matters.
Minto was clueless as to why the Scottish deaths were the highest for 15 years, and claims that progress was being made invited ridicule from the interviewer, who was a bit of a bully it must be said
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Fri 13 Sep 14:02
Quote:
Parboiled, Fri 13 Sept 09:04
The % per population for each part of the UK is the stat that matters.
Minto was clueless as to why the Scottish deaths were the highest for 15 years, and claims that progress was being made invited ridicule from the interviewer, who was a bit of a bully it must be said
I was referring to per head but to alcohol generally rather than alcohol-specific deaths. Alcohol deaths have sadly risen again (by 0.3 per 1000 people). Unfortunately, this rise was the same in Wales and DOUBLE in England (0.6 increase).
Alcoholism is often a hidden problem but it`s interesting it remains so high when so many are turning their backs on booze. I was remarking just this week that I was astonished at the grown up kids on my street never hitting the pubs or clubs. They play football or go to the gym! Perhaps, as with drug deaths, we`ll see it get worse before this generation comes through and makes things better?
Interventions for alcohol are an interesting one though. The biggest one in Scotland has been Minimum Unit Pricing. Essentially the sugar tax for booze. My concern with MUP has always been that those who are problem drinkers will always find a way. They don`t drink because they want to, they drink because they need to. What happens when they can`t afford booze? Presumably they have to steal or turn to alternatives, which may then inadvertently trigger an increase in drug deaths.
This is why my opinion is more is needed to be done about mental health. We`re yet to really see the true impact of COVID lockdowns and how that may have and continues to affect mental health.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: desparado
Date: Fri 13 Sep 14:47
Topic Originator: Parboiled
Date: Fri 13 Sep 09:04
The % per population for each part of the UK is the stat that matters.
Minto was clueless as to why the Scottish deaths were the highest for 15 years, and claims that progress was being made invited ridicule from the interviewer, who was a bit of a bully it must be said.
And why are drug and alcohol deaths proportionally higher in Scotland ?
Why were they higher before devolution ?
And what have Scottish governments done or not done since 1999 that could have made a significant difference?
Same question for the UK gov.
There is more to drug deaths than meets the eye. There are socio economic reasons and mental health reason and for you to revel in the number of people who die from OD is absolutely disgusting. Unionist MP’s and MSP’s also take delight, it’s beyond reprehensible…
What an opportunity we missed in 2014.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Sat 14 Sep 07:45
I`ve not seen the data, but I`d guess the majority of drug and alcohol deaths happen in:
Glasgow
Dundee
North Lanarkshire
Inverclyde
Why? Deprivation and they are largely grey and run down leading to higher instances of depression and general poor mental health. All suffered deindustrialisation and probably multiple generations of substance abuse and childhood trauma.
Trauma and mental health is tough to put into reverse, particularly when drugs offer an easy and immediate release.
Money has been poured into all these places to create jobs and opportunities but it`s not going to change overnight. It will take decades to undo damage that really started 50 years ago.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: KirklistonPar
Date: Thu 19 Sep 21:12
Other countries have decriminalised drugs and some have made them legal. I wonder what their percentage of fatalities are compared to Scotland and other parts of the UK. Putting someone in jail who is an addict or a functioning drug user is never going to help them. Also the fear of being branded a criminal or going to jail may actually be stopping users coming forward and asking for help.
I’ve been lucky and never had an addiction problem but I would of though that most people who do. would of at some point in their life thought there usage was getting out of hand and help was needed
This is the point where they should have free and easy access to help and not be made to feel like criminals, worthless, embarrassed or ashamed.
Post Edited (Thu 19 Sep 22:11)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Thu 19 Sep 22:57
I believe it was Portugal who legalised drugs and it led to significant improvement.
That won`t fly in Scotland as it would need Westminster agreement.
There have been various studies done on the matter of drug and alcohol deaths and access is only one issue. In my opinion there are two significant changes that would make a difference - easier/quicker to mental health support and improvements to areas people live in. Unfortunately, both these things are expensive.
15 minute neighbourhoods have received a lot of bad rep due to the false representation of people being confined to the area they live. Mostly nonsense but the key thing about the concept is ensuring ALL neighbourhoods give people the facilities they need LOCALLY. Most of it is achievable - build estates around "centres" offering leisure, retail and entertainment so you don`t need to travel. The more problematic thing is employment. Most of the rougher parts of Scotland are where there was once a significant industrial workforce. We can see it in Fife with places like Levenmouth. It`s languished for years. The new rail line will open up opportunities for people there to work elsewhere but the ideal is that link makes the area more attractive to potential employers. That will take years but if you don`t start something, it`ll never happen.
Anyway, bit of a ramble to say no single thing will solve the issue and all the potential solutions will take time and money but MUST happen or things will never change.
Finally, these deaths aren`t something to be embarrassed about or use as political clout, they`re something to be angry about.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: desparado
Date: Sun 22 Sep 10:56
Need Westminster agreement. And there lies your problem. Holyrood can only tinker with the multiple issues that cause people to take drugs. Scotland had a problem way before the Scottish Parliament was reconvened.
While Scotland still has the highest death rate, England and Wales figures are horrendous and they are increasing at a faster rate than they are up here.
As long as we remain part of the union then things are only going to get worse.
Mental health issues are increasing across the U.K.
U.K. is at or near the bottom of the “ happiness league”
U.K. is fast becoming one of the most miserable places to live in the developed world.
It does not matter a jot what the Scottish gov does or does not do as it will only have a minimal effect.
Austerity…..again…..will only exacerbate the problem even further I am afraid.
We voted to stay in the Union, so we have to take all the sh** that comes with it.
If you think things are bad now, wait another ten years and see how much worse things will be. It’s downhill all the way from here folks.
What an opportunity we missed in 2014.
What an opportunity we missed in 2014.
|
|
|
|
|
|
