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 The Lo'gelly Special
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Thu 21 Jun 06:07

A secondary school pupil in the late 60s, I was belted quite regularly, as was the norm at that time. I probably deserved it most of the time, cos I was a cheeky wee sod, but there were occasions when it wasn't justified. Some teachers liked to assert their authority on a class and would pick on a random pupil(s) for the most trivial of reasons to instil a bit of fear into the rest of the class. e.g. if you pressed too hard with your pencil in Technical Drawing and drew a heavy line which left an indentation on the paper which you subsequently had to rub out, you were automatically belted. Same if you turned up in any class without a pencil.

I wouldn't say I was left permanently scarred by the belt (many of the boys in my class had a sweep - two bob a head - and the winner was the one who got most strokes of the belt in a term. I managed to win it once and came close on a few other occasions.) but looking back, it was pretty barbaric and didn't really act as a deterrent in every class. Technical and Maths were the exceptions because those teachers didn't mess about when they were dishing it out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tawse

When I was appointed to my first teaching post in the mid 70s, the Head asked me if I had a belt. I told him I didn't and he replied, ''Well I insist that you get one - and use it regularly!"

So I got one and used it occasionally as a last resort, until a lad from Kincardine stole it and took it home in 1978. Of course I never saw him take it and he denied it, but I was tipped off by one of his pals. I didn't bother to get a replacement as by that time I'd learned that if you treat your pupils with fairness and respect, they nearly always repay you in kind. If you talk down to pupils or try to humiliate them in front of their pals, it's hardly surprising that you'll get a negative reaction.

I've heard it suggested that banning the belt was a mistake and that pupils today are far more gallus and undisciplined as result. Society has changed a great deal in the last 40-50 years and perhaps there isn't the same respect for those in positions of authority, but respect has to be earned, imo, rather than by demand or based on fear.

Maybe some of our more senior posters can regale us with some tales of the tawse from yesteryear?



Not your average Sunday League player.


Post Edited (Sun 24 Jun 07:12)
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 Re: The L'ogelly Special
Topic Originator: ipswichpar  
Date:   Thu 21 Jun 06:21

Were there ever instances when parents went to see teachers to even things up?

It's strange how society accepted the belt.

If I found out an adult had hit my kid I'd be looking for a chat....
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 Re: The L'ogelly Special
Topic Originator: onlytakes  
Date:   Thu 21 Jun 07:38

Suspect back then people respected those in authority. Nowadays it seems a minority of parents expect teachers to bring their kids up for them.
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 Re: The L'ogelly Special
Topic Originator: twin par  
Date:   Thu 21 Jun 08:39

Some parents think teachers are baby sitters,and their kids do no wrong. I work in a school for kids with big problems.You would not believe some comments we get.Its all our fault ,we have been told,on more than one occasion.

Post Edited (Thu 21 Jun 10:36)
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 Re: The L'ogelly Special
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Thu 21 Jun 09:01

Quote:

ipswichpar, Thu 21 Jun 06:21

Were there ever instances when parents went to see teachers to even things up?

It's strange how society accepted the belt.

If I found out an adult had hit my kid I'd be looking for a chat....


Society was so different when I was a kid, Ipswich. I never told my parents when I was belted. They'd have told me I must have deserved it - in fact my dad would probably have clipped my earhole. My classmates were the same. Things gradually changed so much that, during my latter years as a Guidance teacher, I often had to deal with irate parents on the phone, a matter of minutes after some classroom "incident" because their child had immediately texted them and they wanted to come and sort the teacher out.

My response was always the same. "Give me until the end of the school day and I'll speak to your child, the teacher and a few other pupils in the class to establish what happened and then I'll phone you back." In almost every case that was enough to diffuse the situation, as the child had put a spin on events.



Not your average Sunday League player.


Post Edited (Thu 21 Jun 09:02)
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 Re: The L'ogelly Special
Topic Originator: MDCCCLXXXV  
Date:   Thu 21 Jun 09:08

My brother-in-laws family made the belt,

As GG did, we also had bets to see who could get the strap the most, however ours was done on weekly basis for 50p a week in the early 80s. The belt didn't bother me as once your hands were sore you couldn't do any work in class, However once the belt was abolished things changed. Lines and detention ruined my life outside school. If I got the belt at school it was forgotten about by the end of the day . On the other hand, lines or detention meant my parents found out I had been a little $h!t at school and my real punishment was not getting to football matches or hunting/fishing with my dad.
We had an English teacher at Ballingry school that would belt you until you cried in front of your classmates, After a couple of strokes one day, I refused to cry. He went ape$h!t and started hunting in his desk drawer. I was puzzled to see him walking back with a shatter proof ruler(a new invention in the early 80s).
He made me stick my hands out left hand palm facing the floor, placing the ruler on my knuckles, then my right hand on top palm facing the ceiling, The first time he belted me the knuckles on my left left hand burst spraying his nice clean white shirt in blood. There was no extra pain as my hands were still tingling from the first 2 strikes. The look on his face was priceless, all the colour drained from his face as he knew he had went to far.
He could not have been nicer to me for the next 2 years at school, and I had my 15 minutes of fame in the school grounds as the 2nd year that "DIDNAE GREET"

East End Park is a symbol of all that is DAFC.
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 Re: The L'ogelly Special
Topic Originator: dave67  
Date:   Thu 21 Jun 09:18

"A secondary school pupil in the late 60s,"

1860's GG :-)
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 Re: The L'ogelly Special
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Thu 21 Jun 10:06

Pub Quiz question - which Scottish politician was responsible for kicking off "the ban the belt" legislation ?

No Googling mind !!!

Clues available upon request.
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 Re: The L'ogelly Special
Topic Originator: pars1562  
Date:   Thu 21 Jun 11:44

I thought it was a couple of mothers from Scotland in the early 80s that really started the ban on assaulting children in schools by the use of a leather strap by taking there case to Europe and winning at the court of human rights.let’s not kid ourselves on that’s what teachers up and down the country did on a regular basis day after day week after week year after year for a long long time.
It was an accepted practice in all schools but a lot of what went on in certain schools was just well accepted but if some adult was to step forward and start the ball rolling with accusations of how this punishment caused him/her unnecessary pain/humiliation and had in fact impacted on him/her psychologically it could in this society we live in now result in massive claims against local authorities who ran state schools and against private schools plus with the threat of the teachers involved having there doors chapped by the local constabulary with the question “did you while teaching at joe bloggs secondary school in 1979 use the strap/belt on Timmy knowitall or any other pupil under your care?”
Ok these observations above may never happen but in today’s world you never know what the pc society will jump on next and this could be one of them.
Anyway yep I was belted don’t think it done me much harm but let’s be honest all it ever did was teach kids that violence was acceptable and in no way was an effective way of teaching or showing your authority over your pupils,now I see most of the teachers (not all) who belted me and others in school as just playground bullies but they just never used the same playgrounds as us but they were bullies at the end off the day picking on those weaker than themselves.
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 Re: The L'ogelly Special
Topic Originator: dave67  
Date:   Thu 21 Jun 13:00

Pretty sure the mothers where from Lochgelly

Let`s try making it till Christmas
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 Re: The L'ogelly Special
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Thu 21 Jun 21:33

Dennis Canavan.

After he left teaching to become an MP.
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 Re: The L'ogelly Special
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Fri 22 Jun 08:09

Quote:

dave67, Thu 21 Jun 13:00

Pretty sure the mothers where from Lochgelly


The story I heard at the time was that one of the mums had a son in 4th year at Beath HS. Apparently, some pupils used to take a short cut home across the nearby cemetery. Locals complained to the school that pupils were trampling on flowers and gravestones. The Head declared the cemetery out of bounds to all pupils. The 4th year pupil defied the instruction by continuing to use the short cut. The Head then tried to belt him but the boy refused it. He was told to stay at home until he was prepared to accept his punishment. The boy's mum backed him and he missed the last 6 months of his compulsory education. The mum took the case to the European court in Strasbourg and history was made.

Not before time, too.



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: The L'ogelly Special
Topic Originator: calpar  
Date:   Fri 22 Jun 09:52

^^
Wrong
The case started from qahs, the boy was at skool with me in 1983?
It did go to Strasbourg, but the guy and his maw were bellends

Worst thing to happen banning the tawse
Never did me any harm, got it occasionally, didnt like it, kept me in check a bit tho
I got suspended for fighting with an older guy once, parents had to go to skool to agree i got 5 from jocky reid and I could go back, I was in 2nd year, i dont think i had either a fight or the belt for the next 3 years
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 Re: The L'ogelly Special
Topic Originator: PARrot  
Date:   Fri 22 Jun 10:31

I was belted regularly. Most often with cause and no complaint.
There were some instances of downright bullying though. I dont think it should have been banned. Sometimes the respect thing just doesn't work. Teachers need to be able to keep their class under control.
Problem was not dealing with the bullies. They could have had a system where teachers had to report and log reasons and how many they gave each time. That would have curbed enthusiasm. Parents should also have been informed.
I got it the first time for being in the toilets at break time. I was 4 years10 months old. Now that was just wrong.



Post Edited (Fri 22 Jun 10:33)
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 Re: The L'ogelly Special
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Fri 22 Jun 11:00

Quote:

calpar, Fri 22 Jun 09:52

^^
Wrong
The case started from qahs, the boy was at skool with me in 1983?
It did go to Strasbourg, but the guy and his maw were bellends

Worst thing to happen banning the tawse
Never did me any harm, got it occasionally, didnt like it, kept me in check a bit tho
I got suspended for fighting with an older guy once, parents had to go to skool to agree i got 5 from jocky reid and I could go back, I was in 2nd year, i dont think i had either a fight or the belt for the next 3 years


Well, I did say that was the story I'd heard, calpar. You can't say the belt shouldn't have been banned based only on your own experience and the belief that it didn't do tou any harm. I was belted on numerous occasions and I don't bear any grudges or mental scars, but I still think it was right to ban it because some teachers misused it e.g. there was an English teacher in my school who belted pupils who got less than 5 out of 10 in the weekly spelling test on Fridays. Yes, it was done in a jokey kind of way and it was mostly the same words we were asked to spell every week, but it was still wrong.

It was the same 2 or 3 boys who usually got belted, too. Poor sods were probably dyslexic.



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: The L'ogelly Special
Topic Originator: PARrot  
Date:   Fri 22 Jun 11:13

It should only have been used as a final resort for indiscipline. Never for under achievement.

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 Re: The L'ogelly Special
Topic Originator: dave67  
Date:   Fri 22 Jun 11:39

I have to say heard the same story as GG. Maybe this was the other parent calpar

Let`s try making it till Christmas
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 Re: The L'ogelly Special
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Fri 22 Jun 12:42

GG’s versions sounds like I mind it as well.
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 Re: The L'ogelly Special
Topic Originator: calpar  
Date:   Fri 22 Jun 13:34

Well its not a story I heard, I was there, however believe what you want
He did indeed refuse to take the belt, and his mum backed him and took it all the way
The guy was from Parkneuk area from what I remember
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 Re: The L'ogelly Special
Topic Originator: dave67  
Date:   Fri 22 Jun 14:07

http://www.johndick-leathergoods.co.uk/the-true-history-of-the-lochgelly-tawse-times-are-changing.htm


In 1976 Mrs Grace Campbell whose son Gordon, age 6, attended St. Matthew's RC Primary School in Bishopbriggs and Mrs Jane Cosans whose son Jeffrey, age 15, attended Beath High School in Cowdenbeath, raised an action in the European Court of Human Rights objecting to corporal punishment in school, the court heard the case in 1982 and found in favour of the action instructing that the use of corporal punishment in UK schools be ended. The use of the belt in state school was phased out from 1983 onwards. Corporal punishment was finally banned in state schools in 1987 and continued in fee-paying schools till it was banned there too in 1998.

Let`s try making it till Christmas
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 Re: The L'ogelly Special
Topic Originator: QPR_Par  
Date:   Fri 22 Jun 14:15

I did a Google search about this and found that 2 mothers won the case at the European Courts. One mother was from Bishopbriggs and the other from Cowdenbeath - her son went to Beath High.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=uLdAAAAAIBAJ&sjid=yaUMAAAAIBAJ&pg=2319%2C4771823
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 Re: The L'ogelly Special
Topic Originator: QPR_Par  
Date:   Fri 22 Jun 14:19

Doh!! I must remember to refresh the page before I post in future.
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 Re: The L'ogelly Special
Topic Originator: Rastapari  
Date:   Fri 22 Jun 14:30

I regularly refused the belt.
Refused to do lines too.
Absurdly nothing happened other than grown up teachers losing their ****.
Pleasing.

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 Re: The L'ogelly Special
Topic Originator: QPR_Par  
Date:   Fri 22 Jun 14:44

There's an interesting read here written by one of Grace Campbell's sons:

https://www.tes.com/news/if-you-didnt-get-belt-you-can-thank-my-mum
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 Re: The L'ogelly Special
Topic Originator: parbucks  
Date:   Fri 22 Jun 15:09

Late fifties at the old St Columba’s in Cowdenbeath and the last day of the summer term before the long break. We are in our register class minutes before the bell would signal the end of the school year.

Someone misbehaves, the teacher who was a bit short sighted looks in vain in his desk for the belt. Not to be found anywhere but realises something is going on as the class is sniggering.

He demands to know who has taken the belt. No response except more sniggering. Behind him hanging on the wall out of his immediate sight is a set of antlers and the belt is stretched across them.

At this point he ups the ante and demands that the culprit owns up or he would belt the whole class and he looked like he meant it.
At this point I had no choice but to own up and stand up on a chair to retrieve the belt to more sniggering from the class.

Retribution was duly dispensed...six of the best but probably justified in the circumstances at the time.

Then the bell sounded. All summer to lick my wounds!

Looking back there were some really sadistic teachers who gloried in using the belt at the most trivial mistake and getting “hard men” reputations. This form of bullying I’m sure had a lasting detrimental effect on some less confident pupils.
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 Re: The L'ogelly Special
Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend  
Date:   Fri 22 Jun 18:36

It's no wonder GG got the belt often. His grammar is not the best :-)
It should be The Lo'gelly special. The ' indicates that letters are missing at that part of the word






It`s bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983


Post Edited (Fri 22 Jun 18:36)
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 Re: The L'ogelly Special
Topic Originator: ipswichpar  
Date:   Fri 22 Jun 18:37

It's French. He's just more cosmopolitan than you!
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 Re: The L'ogelly Special
Topic Originator: calpar  
Date:   Fri 22 Jun 22:00

Hm, looked at those links, and, tho I dont believe everything I read, well, seems at odds with my story 🤔

Hopefully someone else will remember 'Andy something' from Parkneuk at QAHS 1983 ish refused the belt and his maw took it all the way?
I know this happened, and resulted in the famous hyroglyphics lines instead ?
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 Re: The L'ogelly Special
Topic Originator: parsmad68  
Date:   Sat 23 Jun 05:46

I only once received the belt. For being late for registration with my friend who had been assaulted at a lunchtime when he was out for lunch. Teacher didn’t believe us even though he was covered in blood. I had found him walking back from lunch and had water and a towel from gym in my bag.
Never told my mum due to embarrassment.
This is one case I should have had the balls to stand up to that teacher’s “authority”.
Whole psychological thesis could be written on this post.
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 Re: The L'ogelly Special
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sat 23 Jun 06:41

My Dad who went to school in the 1930s/40s would tell me of how one teacher would give him the choice of which belt he would be struck by. One was named Peter the Heater and the other was Normah the Warmer.

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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 Re: The L'ogelly Special
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Sun 24 Jun 07:15

Quote:

Raymie the Legend, Fri 22 Jun 18:36

It's no wonder GG got the belt often. His grammar is not the best :-)
It should be The Lo'gelly special. The ' indicates that letters are missing at that part of the word


Sorted, Raymie. Serves me right for being a smartass. Only people who come from Lochgelly are allowed to call it Lo'gelly, so I overstepped the mark there.



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: The Lo'gelly Special
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Sun 24 Jun 08:07

Two of the best for you GG, that’ll learn you.
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 Re: The Lo'gelly Special
Topic Originator: Boston Red Sox  
Date:   Mon 25 Jun 00:37

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 Re: The Lo'gelly Special
Topic Originator: widtink  
Date:   Mon 25 Jun 02:23

Only ever got the belt at Queen Anne fae Papa Joe (registry and PE) & Dr Ditchburn(German) (she was useless at giving the belt... The trick was to pretend it hurt lol).
Hyrogliphics lines were a proper pain... Normal lines I could do on the way to school on the bus in the morning.
I was a bit of a tearaway in 1st and 2nd year... But got no lines for all of my third year strangely. Got a few sides in 4th and none in 5th... But I wasn't in 5th year for long afore I left.

Admin
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 Re: The Lo'gelly Special
Topic Originator: Boston Red Sox  
Date:   Mon 25 Jun 03:26

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 Re: The Lo'gelly Special
Topic Originator: Malcolm Canmore  
Date:   Wed 27 Jun 19:21

One of the two Miss Beveridges at Camdean would throw the belt from her chair at the guilty pupil and then require him to bring it out to the front of the class before she administered four or six belters.

My dog eats meat
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 Re: The Lo'gelly Special
Topic Originator: Sacha  
Date:   Thu 28 Jun 15:20

Schools now reaping the benefit of 2nd generation parents with no discipline due to banning the belt. Teachers have no "weapons" now and the children know all about their "rights" and know they wont get banned because the schools lose cash if the do.
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 Re: The Lo'gelly Special
Topic Originator: onlytakes  
Date:   Thu 28 Jun 15:42

Is it not more to do with more homes with both parents working long hours meaning far less contact with their kids?

Yes, plenty of feckless parents but there were plenty of them when I was growing up and a lot of them would have been on the tail end (pun intended) of the ending of the whip.
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 Re: The Lo'gelly Special
Topic Originator: twin par  
Date:   Thu 28 Jun 19:51

While not agreeing with national service, parent's who did it knew about respect and manners,sadly lacking nowadays, and that was passed on through families. I can't believe what parents allow their kids to get away with.
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 Re: The Lo'gelly Special
Topic Originator: Blackbeard  
Date:   Tue 3 Jul 07:22

Gandy love,Mr Pate,Mrs Pate (ooft);)Bill Hill,Paddy,to name but a few!some were good at it others were pihs😂

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 Re: The Lo'gelly Special
Topic Originator: dave67  
Date:   Tue 3 Jul 08:00

Ah Mrs Pate and the scud mag :-)
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 Re: The Lo'gelly Special
Topic Originator: MikeyLeonard  
Date:   Tue 3 Jul 08:49

Preferred Mrs/Miss Wimbor tbh . . .Especially on a cold morning 😉
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 Re: The Lo'gelly Special
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Tue 3 Jul 09:20

My mother was a teacher at my primary. This worked very much to my disadvantage as, when I got the belt, she would invariably find out and I would get the double whammy of a skelp round the ear when I got home.

For that reason, high school was a massive relief for me, until I encountered a technical drawing teacher who chose to use his steel ruler rather than the belt... oh, I can feel it now!

Wish I hadn't been so bolshy when I was a young 'un...

:)
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 Re: The Lo'gelly Special
Topic Originator: Thaipar  
Date:   Tue 3 Jul 12:00

Granny Beveridge was the one to be afraid of at Blacklaw primary.

Woodmill was Sandy Sadler or Randy Butler.

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 Re: The Lo'gelly Special
Topic Originator: MDCCCLXXXV  
Date:   Tue 3 Jul 17:31

Thaipar were all your teachers named after 70s porn stars (urghhhh grannyporn)

East End Park is a symbol of all that is DAFC.

Post Edited (Tue 03 Jul 17:32)
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 Re: The Lo'gelly Special
Topic Originator: PARrot  
Date:   Wed 4 Jul 06:19

Too many little brats treated as precious little darlings who are just expressing themselves, and plenty parents are scared to discipline them for fear of prosecution.

The law has made a stick for its own back.

If you don't permit discipline you can wave goodbye to respect.

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 Re: The Lo'gelly Special
Topic Originator: onlytakes  
Date:   Wed 4 Jul 06:47

You don't create respect by hitting someone.

It's the same as it was 30 years ago. Back then you took away their favourite toy. Now you change the WiFi password.
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 Re: The Lo'gelly Special
Topic Originator: Bertiesback  
Date:   Wed 4 Jul 10:24

All kids need boundaries. Lines they know they shouldn't cross. I think a child with no boundaries often proves to be a problem child at worst and ultimately an unhappy one at best.
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 Re: The Lo'gelly Special
Topic Originator: allparone  
Date:   Wed 4 Jul 11:54

It's baffling that the belt was used as a deterrent but everybody who was schooled in that era has numerous tales of the belt as seen above. It obviously wasn't that good a tool.
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