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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Wed 3 Oct 23:50
Three years ago a fit, 31 year old man died whilst being arrested by police in Hayfield Road, Kirkcaldy. At least seven police officers were involved in his fatal arrest. Today we learned that none of them will face prosecution.
This was no great surprise since the news had already been leaked earlier. Leaking uncomfortable news or misinformation has become a feature of UK policing over the years, such as happened following the Hillsborough disaster or the shooting of Menendez. No police spokesperson has ever been called to account for knowingly distributing false news. No news agency ever pursues the source of their false information, despite their claims to be upholders of investigative journalism. Nor has any police person, in my lifetime, ever been charged over a death in custody. The police are above the law, it seems. They are never to be called to account.
Two Fife police officers involved in the Bayoh arrest have been living at the taxpayers’ expense for this three year period. Both were probably inadequate for the job. The female police officer, Nicole Short, of Glenrothes, claimed ‘she was in fear for her life’when confronting Bayoh which suggests she should have led a fuller life. The other suspended PC, Alan Paton of Kirkcaldy, has been reported as freely uttering racist insults before and after the event. Presumably neither of them will work in Fife Police again as some kind of sop to the Bayoh family. Perhaps the bigger question is why they were ever employed in the first place.
I won’t touch on the racist undertones to this fatal arrest as I am sure they are being covered elsewhere. What I want to highlight is the militarisation of policing, which has resulted in a deadly inadequacy to the extent that the police are now incapable of arresting an obstreperous, unarmed man. In the days before stab vests, pepper spray, CS gas and extended ‘wasp’ truncheons, arresting a violent man was considered a two man job. All of these modern additions to the police armoury were used in the arrest of Sheku Bayoh, in addition to leg and arm restraints, yet they still couldn’t get it right.
So how did coppers in days of yore manage to police Fife without wearing either the army surplus gear or, maybe more importantly, not killing those they arrested? I’ve seen truncheons drawn by police twice: once outside the Greyhound Bar, Oakley at closing time and the other time at Murrayfield Stadium when South Africa came to play rugby in 1969. Nobody died. Order, of a sort, was restored. What are we paying for if seven- yes seven police officers - cannot effectively arrest one man? Who answers to this inadequacy?
The announcement of the Bayoh inquiry, which took three years, came perhaps coincidentally on the same day as the inquest verdict into the Westminster attack which cost the life of PC Kenneth Palmer amongst others. It seems that the officer concerned was unarmed and not in a position to defend himself against an armed attacker, a surprising oversight in a city where around half a dozen police are killed every decade. Fortunately, the situation in Fife is very different indeed, in fact so far as I can judge the last killing of a police officer in Fife was back in the 1880s when a constable was kicked to death after a domestic dispute down at the harbour in Kirkcaldy. Not the 1980s; the 1880s. That makes policing Fife one of the safer jobs around and not one that requires all the paramilitary paraphernalia that might be required in certain parts of London.
sammer
Post Edited (Thu 04 Oct 00:07)
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Topic Originator: richie5401
Date: Thu 4 Oct 00:32
Was it detailed why the police woman was in "Fear for her life"
As to your question why the militarisation of the police,society in general has gotten more violent,with less and less respect for authority(see GG's Crisis looming thread)
Why?The changing dynamic of family.What once was,isn't.
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Thu 4 Oct 00:34
Actually society is becoming less violent. In no small part due to the banning of leaded petrol. Seriously.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: richie5401
Date: Thu 4 Oct 00:40
What it fumes from dung before that?The figures say there has been a 10 fold increase in crime since the 50's.I'm sure we both remember when you could leave your door unlocked.That is long gone.
Post Edited (Thu 04 Oct 01:03)
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Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Thu 4 Oct 07:11
Would you mind providing a source for those fivures Ritchie? I can't find a clear decade by decade breakdown of crine in Fife, but if you have one to hand I'd love to see it.
A tenfold increase seems like quite a lot.
I wonder if that has anything to do with an increased uptake in insurance resulting in much higher reporting of crime?
The enemy travels by private jet, not by dinghy.
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Topic Originator: moviescot
Date: Thu 4 Oct 08:02
Quote:
richie5401, Thu 4 Oct 00:40
What it fumes from dung before that?The figures say there has been a 10 fold increase in crime since the 50's.I'm sure we both remember when you could leave your door unlocked.That is long gone.
Still leave my door unlocked.
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Thu 4 Oct 08:38
There has actually been a huge decline in violent crime in bith the UK and America since the 80s. Around the same time that lead was removed from petrol. Scientists believe that there is a link.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: allparone
Date: Thu 4 Oct 09:03
Quote:
moviescot, Thu 4 Oct 08:02
Quote:
richie5401, Thu 4 Oct 00:40
What it fumes from dung before that?The figures say there has been a 10 fold increase in crime since the 50's.I'm sure we both remember when you could leave your door unlocked.That is long gone.
Still leave my door unlocked.
So do I. I honestly can't say that being a victim of crime rates highly on my list of concerns. It's nowhere near as bad now as it was when I was younger.
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Thu 4 Oct 09:24
If you guys go out and leave your door unlocked then I suggest you don't advertise where you live.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: allparone
Date: Thu 4 Oct 09:33
Quote:
The One Who Knocks, Thu 4 Oct 09:24
If you guys go out and leave your door unlocked then I suggest you don't advertise where you live.
It's not that I leave it unlocked all the time but if I forget and remember when I'm out it hardly worries me. House breakings are very very rare. It depends on where you stay I suppose.
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Topic Originator: calpar
Date: Thu 4 Oct 12:52
Was the guy not high on a concoction of class a illegal drugs at the time?
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Topic Originator: da_no_1
Date: Thu 4 Oct 12:57
It was reported he had various drugs including ecstasy in his system at the time he died.
It's hard to know what to believe, only those involved know exactly what happened.
I know it's a minor point but what mystifies me is the £2 million compensation claim. How is that figure calculated?
"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
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Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Thu 4 Oct 13:21
That article is 25 years old Ritchie! Come off it, at least try to debate in good faith!
And the incudent in this case happened in Fife, therefore the crime situation in Fife is all that's relavent here - the police officer clearly did not feel threatened due to an increase in knife crime in south London, did she? She is a police ofgicer in Fife, so she does her job in that context.
The enemy travels by private jet, not by dinghy.
Post Edited (Thu 04 Oct 13:22)
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Topic Originator: richie5401
Date: Thu 4 Oct 13:27
The crime stats are relevant if you are taking 1950-60 as your starting point.
The incident in Fife was a guy high on a cocktail of drugs allegedly wielding a knife or a sword.
I'm sure she did feel "In fear for my life"
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Topic Originator: calpar
Date: Thu 4 Oct 13:49
At 0720 in the morning too, where was his missus at that point ?
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Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Thu 4 Oct 13:59
They say nothing about now Ritchie. 1993 was in the middle of a huge violent crime spike which peaked in the early 2000s and has been in steep decline ever since. Those are the facts. If you want to increase violent crime then I'm afraud you're going to have to do it yourself because folk just cannae be bothered with good ol' 1950s domestic violence now. Not that that would have been recorded as a crime in the 1950s though because beating and raping your wife wasn't against the law until very recently. They're a good addition to the stats, I'm sure you'd agree? Beating women and kids should count as a crime, even uf you're related to them imo.
So despite higher reporting rates due to increased insurance coverage motivating folk to report crimes and increased protection from domestic violence making it an actual crime and not just morally corrupt, we still have falling crime. Which is nice.
The enemy travels by private jet, not by dinghy.
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Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Thu 4 Oct 14:24
Great article Ritchie, my favourite part is where it says:
"When comparing like-for-like crimes, the survey reported a 9% reduction compared with the previous year."
It has a link to show why there's a discrepancy there:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41149778
Essentially, people's actual experience of crime including those which go unreported) is down but reported crime is up and that fits with what I said.
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Topic Originator: richie5401
Date: Thu 4 Oct 14:34
I thought you might have liked "Real rises in the most serious types of violence killings and murders to where they were 9 years ago"
To answer Sammer's point though.When confronted by a knife wielding drug crazed individual would pepper spray be adequate?Unlikely.The truth is these are fortunately isolated incidents,one hopes.
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Topic Originator: Thaipar
Date: Thu 4 Oct 17:20
Quote:
richie5401, Thu 4 Oct 14:34
I thought you might have liked "Real rises in the most serious types of violence killings and murders to where they were 9 years ago"
To answer Sammer's point though.When confronted by a knife wielding drug crazed individual would pepper spray be adequate?Unlikely.The truth is these are fortunately isolated incidents,one hopes.
They were confronted by an unarmed man.
A knife was apparently found nearby but he was unarmed when police made contact.
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Topic Originator: richie5401
Date: Thu 4 Oct 17:40
Police were alerted when witnesses claimed a man was brandishing a knife or sword.It's not clear if he still had it according to reports.
Let's say not.He is still in a highly aggressive state due to drug taking.All possibilities i'm sure would go through the minds of the police who were called.
None of us knows how we would react when confronted with that situation.What should be beyond doubt is the police had murder on their minds.
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Topic Originator: moviescot
Date: Thu 4 Oct 19:50
Quote:
richie5401, Thu 4 Oct 17:40
Police were alerted when witnesses claimed a man was brandishing a knife or sword.It's not clear if he still had it according to reports.
Let's say not.He is still in a highly aggressive state due to drug taking.All possibilities i'm sure would go through the minds of the police who were called.
None of us knows how we would react when confronted with that situation.What should be beyond doubt is the police had murder on their minds.
To be fair it's not even clear if he was the man brandishing the knife. As it was he had no weapons when the police arrived. Yes he was on drugs but let's face it so are most people on a night out. Just mostly legal ones but with equally violent possibilities.
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Topic Originator: calpar
Date: Thu 4 Oct 19:58
^^'mostly legal but with equally violent possibilities' wtf ?
Pehaps only speaking for myself, doubt it like, but the farthest thing in my mind when out and 'high' legally or illegaly, is violence
I suppose its 'possible' but if you want to be more 'specific' anything is possible !
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Topic Originator: desparado
Date: Thu 4 Oct 20:50
If he had been white he would still be alive.
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Topic Originator: londonparsclub
Date: Thu 4 Oct 21:17
How do you come to that conclusion above?
HF05
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Topic Originator: moviescot
Date: Thu 4 Oct 21:17
Quote:
calpar, Thu 4 Oct 19:58
^^'mostly legal but with equally violent possibilities' wtf ?
Pehaps only speaking for myself, doubt it like, but the farthest thing in my mind when out and 'high' legally or illegaly, is violence
I suppose its 'possible' but if you want to be more 'specific' anything is possible !
Are you suggesting that there are never any violent alcohol related incidents. All I said was is alcohol can lead to violence.
Violence is never in my mind when out drinking but you just need to be in town on a Saturday night to see plenty.
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Topic Originator: calpar
Date: Fri 5 Oct 04:14
You suggested, i was astounded, that mostly.... dadeeda da da ? Really?
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Topic Originator: Rastapari
Date: Fri 5 Oct 07:05
Good ol racist Richie showing his hand again.
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Fri 5 Oct 09:14
Nope not read anything on this thread that can be considered racist.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: richie5401
Date: Fri 5 Oct 12:44
3 folks have brought up Race/skin clour on this thread,Sammer,desparado.and Rasta.No one else.
Folks of all skin colours do bad things.It's irrelevant.
Mr Bayoh ingested a cocktail of drugs and became violent and set in motion a series of events that had tragic consequences.
Imagine being the policeman/policewoman getting the call"Witnesses say a man out of his mind on drugs is in the street brandishing a sword or a knife"
A baton and pepper spray wouldn't fill me with confidence.Something of equal or greater value might have brought the situation to a better conclusion.
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Fri 5 Oct 17:44
'A baton and pepper spray wouldn't fill me with confidence. Something of equal or greater value might have brought the situation to a better conclusion.'
In which case you probably made a good decision deciding not to take up policing as a profession. Scottish police have been handling violent men high on a cocktail of drugs (usually beer and whisky) for as long as I can remember. Scotland has long had a reputation as the razor/knife capital of Europe, yet the police previously coped without recourse to military equipment. An experienced police officer knows that what is reported by the public, for example ‘a violent man carrying a sword,’ may not be an accurate description and he or she is expected to assess the situation on arrival. At the time of being confronted by the police, Sheku Bayoh was not armed. There is reportedly one CCTV camera for every 14 citizens in the UK and it is believed that some part of the Sheku Bayoh arrest was captured on camera; however no footage has so far emerged.
Regarding racism, this issue is unavoidable where seven white officers arrest a black man resulting in his death. If, for the purposes of argument, seven black officers had arrested a white man resulting in his death then the story would have been on the front page of the tabloid newspapers, with the issue of racism being screamed from every headline. Fife Police are fully aware of that, therefore they have attempted some damage limitation by indirectly leaking allegations regarding one of the suspended officers, namely to the effect that he has made racist comments in the past as well as being involved in domestic violence. Their aim is to suggest that they have a rogue police officer, but not a force which is institutionally racist.
In the UK a police officer is simply a citizen with legal powers of arrest, a relationship which has served the country well over the years. For example, last year police in the USA shot dead more citizens in one month than the UK police did in the whole of the last century. Even given the larger US population this is an astonishing discrepancy. One Christian commentator from the US, Chris Hedges, no friend of the religious right who he believes have traduced Christianity, has some interesting observations on the militarisation of the modern police force.
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Topic Originator: richie5401
Date: Fri 5 Oct 18:07
In regards to the arrest it was reported only two officers(weighing around 40 stone) were restraining Bayoh,which no doubt resulted in breathing difficulties compounded from his drug use.
I have no doubt there are racists in the police force.It's not clear however the depth or breadth.
It's a sad tale and a cautionary one.Drugs have consequences.
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Topic Originator: Rastapari
Date: Fri 5 Oct 19:13
Quote:
richie5401, Fri 5 Oct 18:07
In regards to the arrest it was reported only two officers(weighing around 40 stone) were restraining Bayoh,which no doubt resulted in breathing difficulties compounded from his drug use.
I have no doubt there are racists in the police force.It's not clear however the depth or breadth.
It's a sad tale and a cautionary one.Drugs have consequences.
Yep, less consequences than alcohol or prescription drugs.
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Topic Originator: richie5401
Date: Fri 5 Oct 19:24
Yep,degrees of interference.
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Topic Originator: moviescot
Date: Fri 5 Oct 19:50
Quote:
richie5401, Fri 5 Oct 19:24
Yep,degrees of interference.
53% of violent incidents alcohol-related: British Crime Survey
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Topic Originator: richie5401
Date: Fri 5 Oct 19:55
I don't doubt it.
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Fri 5 Oct 20:18
It's hard to compare Scotland to other countries as in some countries statistics on how many people are killed or injured during police encounters aren't recorded. YouTube clips though make for chilling viewing.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: moviescot
Date: Fri 5 Oct 20:40
Quote:
richie5401, Fri 5 Oct 19:55
I don't doubt it.
Much higher obviously than any drug incidents.
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Topic Originator: richie5401
Date: Fri 5 Oct 20:47
Alcohol is a drug.
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Topic Originator: moviescot
Date: Fri 5 Oct 20:51
Quote:
richie5401, Fri 5 Oct 20:47
Alcohol is a drug.
Much higher than illegal drugs or prescription drugs.
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Topic Originator: richie5401
Date: Fri 5 Oct 20:56
It is.Illegal drugs and prescription drugs kill as well.The are not benign.
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Topic Originator: moviescot
Date: Fri 5 Oct 21:33
Quote:
richie5401, Fri 5 Oct 20:56
It is.Illegal drugs and prescription drugs kill as well.The are not benign.
Good god min. I never mentioned them killing. It's clear that alcohol causes more violent incidents than illegal drugs and prescription drugs combined. That's what I was getting at. Is that clear now?
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Topic Originator: richie5401
Date: Fri 5 Oct 21:47
You must have missed"It is".
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Topic Originator: moviescot
Date: Fri 5 Oct 22:36
Quote:
richie5401, Fri 5 Oct 21:47
You must have missed"It is".
No I didn't. Just confused why killing came up. Never mentioned it.
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Topic Originator: richie5401
Date: Fri 5 Oct 22:47
Both alcohol and alcohol related disease kills thousands per year as do illegal drugs.I agree with you alcohol related violence is a huge problem,other illegal drugs such as Heroine,just as destructive.The list of is almost endless with varying degrees interference with your body's natural processes.
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Topic Originator: Rastapari
Date: Sat 6 Oct 11:47
Quote:
richie5401, Fri 5 Oct 22:47
Both alcohol and alcohol related disease kills thousands per year as do illegal drugs.I agree with you alcohol related violence is a huge problem,other illegal drugs such as Heroine,just as destructive.The list of is almost endless with varying degrees interference with your body's natural processes.
All illegal drug deaths put together are dwarfed by alcohol and prescription drug deaths..
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Topic Originator: richie5401
Date: Sat 6 Oct 12:59
If you take 2016 in England and Wales it was half.7600 deaths from alcohol v 3700 for illegal drugs.
It's estimated over 30 million folks drink alcohol regularly.Percentage wise hard drugs kills way more.
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Topic Originator: Rastapari
Date: Sat 6 Oct 22:00
Quote:
richie5401, Sat 6 Oct 12:59
If you take 2016 in England and Wales it was half.7600 deaths from alcohol v 3700 for illegal drugs.
It's estimated over 30 million folks drink alcohol regularly.Percentage wise hard drugs kills way more.
Did you tactically ignore the prescription drugs?
And the numbers who take illegal drugs?
So many variables.
Post Edited (Sat 06 Oct 22:02)
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Topic Originator: richie5401
Date: Sun 7 Oct 13:15
Folks who use prescription drugs regularly is 47%.The percentage who die from the them is very low.About 8 deaths per million across all prescription drugs.
Here are the numbers for illegal drugs.
https://www.drugwise.org.uk/how-many-people-use-drugs/
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Topic Originator: londonparsclub
Date: Sun 7 Oct 14:02
Bottom line is a man has lost his life and lessons will be learned harsh ones at that. I do feel for the mans family.
I read above things were “alleged” been “ reported” all those statements add fuel to the fire as does bringing race into it.
Do people honestly believe that the officers before reporting for duty decided the wanted to kill a black man that day.. seriously?
It’s utter nonsense to bring race into it.
As for the “militarisation” of the police it’s an unfortunate climate we live in with HSE regulations and the protection against being injured at work.
The deaths of previous officers across the UK result in officers being protected against injury. Those figures speak for themselves see the facts from down here last night.
What roles does the government involve here?
The man was having an emotional episode. Whether it was the drugs/drink or whatever is not the point, he needed at that time medical help. The government in the Uk has closed all the medical facilities that assisted people involved in this type of scenario. The reduction in police budgets results in poor training and this would also be a contributing factor.
HF05
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Topic Originator: Doves
Date: Sun 7 Oct 22:31
In future the police should just let people hospitalise them or run amok while they do nothing. Better that than getting branded racist IMO.
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Topic Originator: richie5401
Date: Mon 8 Oct 15:07
"Whether it was drink/drugs or whatever is not the point".I disagree.We should be asking what caused a seemingly ordinary citizen to ingest a cocktail of drugs.
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Topic Originator: richie5401
Date: Mon 8 Oct 15:46
Two sides as you say.
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Topic Originator: P
Date: Mon 8 Oct 19:20
So he chased a female police officer down, donkey punched her to the ground and was stamping on her.
No wonder she feared for her life
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Topic Originator: red-star-par
Date: Mon 8 Oct 22:37
From the accounts I have read, he was behaving extremely aggressively, brandishing a knife. Although it should have been possible to restrain him without injury, I can imagine how things can escalate if someone is resisting. While I'm sorry for the family, if he had been behaving himself, he would still around
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Mon 8 Oct 23:20
If the police had been behaving themselves, then Sheku Bayoh would still be around.
A father of the female police officer is not the greatest source for information; if she had carried out her duties effectively, why has she been suspended for the last three years? Or maybe on sick leave due to trauma?
Blaming the victim is the easiest answer of all, although as I have written earlier, police have routinely arrested violent drunks since time immemorial, in such places as the Gorbals with razor gangs, yet nobody was killed when arrested. This arrest was different and Fife Police know it.
Actually Kirkcaldy Police are different, but so far as I Know only Ian Rankin in his 2011 novel 'The Impossible Dead' has ever ventured into print over this topic.
sammer
Post Edited (Mon 08 Oct 23:25)
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Topic Originator: richie5401
Date: Tue 9 Oct 00:14
You have the correct words there in the first sentence Sammer,just in the wrong order IMO.
If Sheku Bayoh had been behaving himself,the police wouldn't have been around.
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Topic Originator: Kintos
Date: Tue 9 Oct 02:05
Glad sammer has got all the answers with the authority to determine what is and isn't a reliable source.
And why the continual reference to incidents from back in the day etc etc? Back then agitated delerium was practically non-existent due to individuals not being high as a kite on modern day synthetic drugs. The risk of positional asphyxia is greatly increased while trying to restrain such individuals as well as other potentially fatal consequences.
This was a tragedy and my thoughts go out to those who have lost and been affected by it. Surprised at some of the crass comments I've read on here.
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Topic Originator: WORST
Date: Tue 9 Oct 07:55
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Tue 9 Oct 09:45
No that's wrong. It isn't the police that have decided to drop the case.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: P
Date: Tue 9 Oct 14:27
Quote:
WORST, Tue 09 Oct 07:55
I haven't read the whole thread, but the jist that I'm getting is that a man chased a police woman down, punched her to the ground, then died in police custody afterwards? Now the police dropping the case against themselves?
Nothing dodgy about at all.
Can’t beat a snap judgment based on not bothering to read any information that is right in front of you 🙄
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Topic Originator: WORST
Date: Tue 9 Oct 15:57
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Tue 9 Oct 16:21
No point arguing with logic like that. I'm out.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: Kintos
Date: Tue 9 Oct 20:28
Even by your standards Stevie that's pretty special...
"Drop the case against themselves"
Levels of ignorance that rule out any validity you add to the topic 🤦♂️
Post Edited (Tue 09 Oct 20:29)
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Topic Originator: WORST
Date: Wed 10 Oct 06:00
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Topic Originator: P
Date: Wed 10 Oct 08:13
Quote:
WORST, Tue 09 Oct 15:57
Topic Originator: P like | nolike
Date: Tue 9 Oct 14:27
Quote:
WORST, Tue 09 Oct 07:55
I haven't read the whole thread, but the jist that I'm getting is that a man chased a police woman down, punched her to the ground, then died in police custody afterwards? Now the police dropping the case against themselves?
Nothing dodgy about at all.
Can’t beat a snap judgment based on not bothering to read any information that is right in front of you 🙄
-------
Knowing what I know and what I've experience at the hands of the polis, I wouldn't be surprised if they've told packs of lies. A dead man can hardly defend himself against them, can he?
Well that’s an easy game to play - experiences with the polis you say? Clearly a criminal and a wrong un’ then.
See how it works?
Reality is probably closer to being taken home to parents after budding windaes and running away when he was 14 and now wears a Che Guevara t-shirt and sees himself as an activist
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Topic Originator: Nippy Sweetie
Date: Mon 15 Oct 11:06
deleted by me...
philltwo..
Post Edited (Mon 15 Oct 11:14)
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