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 Holocaust Rememberence Day
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sun 27 Jan 20:27

We say we'll remember but of course eventually we won't.
A poignant sub reddit with a picture of a victim, date of birth and the simple word murdered.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Unexpected

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 Re: Holocaust Rememberence Day
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Mon 28 Jan 12:47

The scale of the systematic murder of millions of Jews(and anyone else really that Hitler thought was inferior) is still horrifying today.
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 Re: Holocaust Rememberence Day
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Mon 28 Jan 22:06

Holocaust Remembrance is something I support, but with reservations. It should not be solely about the Jewish victims, although they were certainly in the main sights of the Nazi regime. There were, it is generally accepted, 6 million Jewish victims of the Nazi operations. There were around 3 million Soviets killed in the Death Camps, yet I never hear about them in western media, and neither are our schoolchildren encouraged to learn about this. That is before we consider the 28 million Soviet citizens who perished fighting the Nazis face to face, something the UK and American troops only managed in the later stages of the war. What about the revolt at Auschwitz when teenage girls killed the guards and launched a mass escape, having acquired guns and explosives? Does this not fit with the holocaust narrative? If we want to learn from history we need the full story.

Slaughtering captured soldiers was nothing new: the Nazis did not invent that. Nor were they the first to obliterate civilian populations. In fact it is slightly more shocking to learn how many were killed, in days gone by, by the sword, when bloodshed really meant bloodshed. However the Nazis do deserve their place in infamy. They did establish the concept of the Death Camp, as opposed to the Concentration Camp. Killing unarmed civilians on a planned, industrial scale such as this was a new concept. Long may they, and their ideology, be confined to the dustbin of human endeavour.

However this is something disquieting about this whole concept, now since the 1970s, called the Holocaust. It was not, so far as I can see, actually planned initially. Hitler’s hatred of Jews had been well established since Mein Kampf, as was his mission to make Europe free of them. Jews unable to leave Germany were treated abysmally in terms of civil rights and natural respect right up to the war in 1939, yet even at this time there was still no clear idea of how to remove them. There were even secret meetings between Nazis and Jewish representatives in Palestine in the early 1940s which saw the ‘Jewish Solution’ as a mass exodus to Magadascar. In reality many would have died en route and the area would have resembled modern day Gaza.

All that changed with the infamous Wannsee Conference of January 1942, when extermination of the Jews in Europe became government policy, albeit couched in euphemistic language. What concerns me is how gradually the concept of killing Jews- for the ‘crime’ of being Jewish- became embedded in the German mindset. Even at its peak, most citizens preferred to pretend they did not know it was happening, yet they almost certainly did know: such a vast killing operation could never have remained secret from many. The holocaust may have had its roots in Mein Kampf, but it took many years of propaganda and a world war before the people could be engineered to look the other way. From which I conclude, that Fascism or genocide does not happen suddenly tomorrow, but is a long time in incubation. The message? Don’t be engineered. Don’t look the other way.
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 Re: Holocaust Rememberence Day
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Mon 28 Jan 22:50

Quite shocked that someone saw fit to give my initial post a dislike but some would rather that this subject isn't raised.

Superb post Sammer.
I know that when I remember the Holocaust I certainly don't just think of it as an abomination solely against Jews.
The Nazi's eugenic beliefs meant that many minorities were deemed as inferior or sub human. Slavic people in particular suffered in eastern Europe as the Nazi's pressed on with their dreams of Lebensraum.
You're spot on that something like what happened then doesn't just happen suddenly. It happens step by step and little steps at that. I'm quite sure we all like to imagine that if we were in 1930s Germany that somehow we wouldn't have been swept along in the predujice and hatred. That somehow the madness wouldn't have infected our minds and souls. Dojt kid yourself. In the right circumstances probably you and probably me as well.

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 Re: Holocaust Rememberence Day
Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe  
Date:   Mon 28 Jan 23:30

Although minute in comparison, the rise of the far right all over the world just now is a reminder how easily it happened in 1939 when there was only propaganda invading the mindset of people.

Sammer made a top top post there putting things in perspective.

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Post Edited (Tue 29 Jan 06:19)
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 Re: Holocaust Rememberence Day
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Tue 29 Jan 00:20

TOWK,

Don’t let be too hard on ourselves. There was opposition to the Nazis even when they were garnering 99% support in referenda. I like to think that some of us on this site would have been amongst that number. But we can never know, until we have been tested.

The concentration camps were full of political opponents from 1933, although at that time there was not the legal or political mechanism to kill them. That came much later, when the war was being lost. Even young Eisler, who attempted to kill Hitler, and very nearly succeeded, was only incarcerated although he was, like other political enemies, executed in the dying days of the regime. The myth of the Gestapo power over everyone and opposition being impossible was largely a fiction created after the war by repentant Nazi sympathisers hoping to be re-integrated into society. Mostly they were, and many reached high office in the 1950s and 1960s. In that respect Nazism was never completely flushed from German society even although the ideology was.

My last words are for the Edelweiss Pirates of Cologne. They had little, if any politics, and only became effective once the Nazis were losing the war and they themselves had no intention of becoming cannon fodder against the Red Army. Yet this mob, something akin to the AV Toi or the YVB bolstered by deserters, managed to blow up the Gestapo H.Q leading to their 16 year old leader being hanged in public. Which was a damn sight more than anyone else managed. Resistance was possible. If the will was there.
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 Re: Holocaust Rememberence Day
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Tue 29 Jan 06:20

Yet another superb post from Sammer. The extent and depth of his knowledge on so many diverse subjects is truly amazing.

No doubt he - and others - will have heard of the Stanford Prison Experiment. It was perhaps not conclusive as it was quickly abandoned and has been dismissed by some as not scientifically valid, but it's quite chilling all the same. It can be used, at least in part, to explain the horrors of the Shoa. By referring to the Jews and other minority groups as 'rats', 'vermin' etc. they were effectively dehumanised by their Nazi captors. Not every German soldier was a Nazi, of course and many were extremely uncomfortable with their roles, but they would have been in real fear for their own lives if they failed to follow orders. None of us can be sure of how we would have reacted had we been put in that situation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

For anyone who finds this subject especially interesting I can recommend William Golding's iconic novel, 'Lord of the Flies', which my class was assigned in Higher English.



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 Re: Holocaust Rememberence Day
Topic Originator: parsmad68  
Date:   Tue 29 Jan 06:55

I read somewhere that the EU in design was led by ex- high ranking Nazi officials. Unsure if it was correct.
It was even being suggested that the reintegrated officials were planning this style of governance during the days with Hitler about how Europe should be run after Germany winning the war. Would be useful to read more on post war politics.

The persecution of the Jews was also prevalent in other countries for example, many Ukrainians involved in the atrocities of Babi Yar.

This point in history is also the Vatican’s disgrace when priests of the time were reporting these atrocities that the Vatican turned the other cheek. The priests in the field were indeed pressured for their life and I am sure the Vatican also, but it still makes uncomfortable reading, although who knows how we would all react writing this from the safety of a keypad.
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 Re: Holocaust Rememberence Day
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Tue 29 Jan 07:06

Quote:

parsmad68, Tue 29 Jan 06:55

I read somewhere that the EU in design was led by ex- high ranking Nazi officials. Unsure if it was correct.
It was even being suggested that the reintegrated officials were planning this style of governance during the days with Hitler about how Europe should be run after Germany winning the war. Would be useful to read more on post war politics.

The persecution of the Jews was also prevalent in other countries for example, many Ukrainians involved in the atrocities of Babi Yar.

This point in history is also the Vatican’s disgrace when priests of the time were reporting these atrocities that the Vatican turned the other cheek. The priests in the field were indeed pressured for their life and I am sure the Vatican also, but it still makes uncomfortable reading, although who knows how we would all react writing this from the safety of a keypad.


The Vatican did completely disgrace itself during WW2. The official explanation was that they didn't want to endanger the lives of Catholic priests and of course the Jews weren't Catholics, so maybe they weren't a priority? As a Catholic myself, I'm deeply ashamed.



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 Re: Holocaust Rememberence Day
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Tue 29 Jan 07:18

Sammer mentions Mein Kampf. I have a copy of the book given to me by my late father who was a paratrooper with the 6th Airborne Division during WW2. Considering its age, the book is in very good condition. On the inside cover, my father has written in pencil...

"This book came from the offices of a Dornier Aircraft Factory at Wismar - a seaport on the Baltic Sea in May 1945."

His division was part of the allied forces' race to the Baltic to stop the Russians advancing further west than they did. Had they not, the map of Europe may have looked very different, with Denmark and very possibly the rest of Scandinavia in Russian/Soviet hands.
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 Re: Holocaust Rememberence Day
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Tue 29 Jan 11:34

I’m a bit confused by Sammer’s statement that British and US troops didn’t engage with the Germans until much later in the war after the Russians had become involved.

That doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.

The 51st Highland Division, for example, ceased to exist after the summer of 1940 when it fought to halt the German advance on Dunkirk.
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 Re: Holocaust Rememberence Day
Topic Originator: General Zod  
Date:   Tue 29 Jan 13:29

The one who knocks. It was me who disliked it by accident. It happens occasionally when I’m scrolling with my phone. My thumb must have touched the wee icon. Apologies for the confusion. You can’t undo a like or dislike. I tried!
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 Re: Holocaust Rememberence Day
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Tue 29 Jan 15:12

You are correct VEE. UK forces were engaged in combat with Nazi forces at a time when the USSR and the USA were watching from the sidelines. Our efforts were ineffective at that time, partly due to the weak resistance offered by the French military. France was overrun in about 7 weeks- yet resistance fighters in the Warsaw Ghetto, armed with little more than rifles and Molotov cocktails, later held off the Nazis for a month. It took another four years before we could face Nazi troops again, by which time the outcome of the war was largely decided.

It seems that the UK was offered what might be called a ‘Brexit’ deal by Hitler in 1941. If the UK turned its back on Europe and gave the Nazis a free hand, then we would be allowed to hold on to our empire. That must have seemed a tempting offer at the time since we were hanging on by our fingernails, yet Churchill, often seen today as an inspiration by those who want to cut ties with the EU, was not prepared to abandon Europe. If he did that today he might end up with a turnip head on the front of the Daily Mail below the headline ‘Traitor.’
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 Re: Holocaust Rememberence Day
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Tue 29 Jan 15:33

Thanks for clearing that up Zod.

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 Re: Holocaust Rememberence Day
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Tue 29 Jan 15:40

The Warsaw rising is hardly comparable with the Fall of France in 1940. It was urban guerilla warfare against SS Police and Dirlewanger’s lowlifes.

That apart, British & Commonwealth armies fought right across North Africa, over to Sicily and up through Italy from 1940 onwards - Rome fell to the Americans 2 days before D-Day and the Allied encounter with Germans in Normandy.

Where does the further 4 years, post 1940 come from ?

As for Hitler’s offer in 1941 - recent past experience proved that these were worthless.



Post Edited (Tue 29 Jan 18:22)
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 Re: Holocaust Rememberence Day
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Tue 29 Jan 21:40

VEE,
You can only fight what is in front of you. Maybe if the French had engaged in some of that urban guerrilla warfare the Nazi onslaught could have been slowed at least. They didn’t. They had the largest army in Europe and they folded after seven weeks. Capitulation. A significant faction in the country welcomed the Nazi invasion. When I said UK forces were out of Europe for four years I was using the crude measurement of the Dunkirk retreat and the Normandy landings.

That French capitulation made the British military effort very difficult indeed. Fighting in Italy was the equivalent of lower division football. All war is murderous, but some is more murderous than others. The Italians themselves actually changed sides during the war which made things a bit easier for us obviously. Sharked up Fascist battalions from Romania, Hungary and the like were hardly front line Nazi troops, and were soundly defeated by UK and USA army troops. There was still plenty fighting to be done after D-Day and we played our full part in that. And suffered commensurate casualties.

The definitive battles of WW2 took place in the east, where no UK soldier was involved. I am proud to be part of a country, the UK, which fought Fascism, for a time alone. But we only lost half a million people in the conflict, which in itself tells us how much fighting we were able to do. The Germans lost 8 million. The Soviets 28 million by most accounts. That is where WW2 was won and lost. On the eastern front, which is what Stalin told Churchill at Yalta.
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 Re: Holocaust Rememberence Day
Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe  
Date:   Tue 29 Jan 22:51

Yep, without question Germany lost the war by going to the Soviet union to pick a fight.
Hitler's own henchmen even tried to dissuade him from such a fruitless endeavor.
The bitter winter cost the German infantry dearly on that front.
Ultimately it cost Hitler his own life as well as the war he instigated in Poland.

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 Re: Holocaust Rememberence Day
Topic Originator: Grant  
Date:   Wed 30 Jan 01:18

"The Germans lost 8 million. The Soviets 28 million by most accounts. That is where WW2 was won and lost. On the eastern front"

Send soldiers into a firefight without weapons, you probably shouldn't be shocked when your casualty figures are high.

You've mentioned a few different things from the war, drawing attention to how poorly France done, I'm surprised you haven't mentioned the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, the one that allowed Germany to plow through the west of Europe safe in the knowledge Russia wasn't going up open up another front against them, instead Russia would help Nazi Germany with Poland. And have a little nibble of Finland.

By the time Germany was fighting on the eastern front at Stalingrad they simply weren't able to dedicate there forces like they had earlier in the war, resources were getting used building the Atlantic wall, resources were being used trying to prop up Mussolini in the soft underbelly of Africa. Britain never signed a non aggression pact, instead Britain sent vital aid in the form some artctic convoys. It's hard to use present day morals and standards to 20th century warfare, but even by those times the way Russian troops acted was utterly dispicable and vile. The Eastern Front was vital in winning the war, as was the constantly engaged Western Front and the small matter of Pearl Harbour.


On the subject of the holocaust I was in Krakow last year with a few mates and we went along to Aushwitz, that's a experience never forgotten.



Post Edited (Wed 30 Jan 01:26)
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 Re: Holocaust Rememberence Day
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Wed 30 Jan 11:20

The size of the French Army in 1940 was not a critical factor, many of them were engaged in the pointless Maginot Line which was simply bypassed.

They were beaten, like the British, by a superior miltary force, better equiped and trained with recent combat experience and (crucially) supported by an equally competent airforce that was dedicated to supporting ground operations.

The French did not meekly surrender, they suffered heavy casualties, and Dunkirk would never have happened had they not fought valiant rearguard actions to delay the Germans.

As for Italy, it was hardly a minor theatre, the Germans deployed some very good units, including the SS Liebstandarte at one point, the Herman Goering Division and first class paratrooper regiments. Field Marshal Kesselring was on of the best commanders and the Germans were formidable in their defensive operations.

Nobody is disputing the critical victories won by the Soviets - but that does not lessen the efforts of the other Allies in the defeat of Hitler.
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 Re: Holocaust Rememberence Day
Topic Originator: parsmad68  
Date:   Wed 30 Jan 12:37

I would also like to mention what I read about the mentality of the German soldier on the initial front lines that the allies faced. From accounts, the Germans soldiers in the D-Day landings were fanatical about Hitler. The Generals in the landing armies took note of this fanaticism that would be a block on advances into France. Once the landing armies had secured their position, however and along with disastrous military planning by Hitler, there was no way back for the Nazi’s.
I watched Auswitch on Netflix again last night and it is the calm and structured way that the Germans excused what had happened and with a lack of remorse.
I was unaware the camp commandant Rudolf Hoss had written memoirs where he said his main regret was with not spending more time with his family.

Post Edited (Wed 30 Jan 12:38)
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 Re: Holocaust Rememberence Day
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Wed 30 Jan 13:14

"From accounts, the Germans soldiers in the D-Day landings were fanatical about Hitler."

Not the ones immediately defending the Atlantic Wall - many of these units were 2nd/3rd rate formations comprised of older men and foreign conscripts etc.

The Waffen SS units held in reserve were the hardcore and fortunately they were not committed immediately and were unable to engage the Allies until after the beachhead had been established with British, Canadian and American armies having driven inland.

One of the SS divisions was located in southern France, 450 miles from the front, and took two weeks to join the fighting due to having to deal with partisan guerilla attacks to hamper its move north.
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 Re: Holocaust Rememberence Day
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Wed 30 Jan 22:53

Grant,
I don’t think you like the Red Army. I know they behaved atrociously in Berlin when they were let off the leash for two weeks. But where were the bold young Nazi men who had jackbooted their way across Europe then? They had raped, plundered and exterminated everything in their apparently invincible path. Yet when, in May 1945, their women cried for help, they were nowhere to be found. Maybe that is the message that should be hammered into every fascist halfwit who thinks that brute force and conquest have no consequences. Maybe we should have international Nemesis day.

Incidentally, the US and UK soldiers were hardly saints in Southern Germany at this time, although their crimes have been airbrushed from western, if not German oral history. All victorious soldiers behave badly- it is called ‘the spoils of war.’ Vile and disgusting for sure, but common to all armies, no matter their nationality. There is no moral high ground to be taken when your young men are walking the streets with weapons in a war zone.

International Holocaust Day is in commemoration of the Red Army liberating Aushwitz-Birkenau, the first Death Camp to be recognised for what it was by outsiders. Not the British Army, nor the US Army who were similarly horrified when they liberated camps such as Belsen: The Red Army. So they should be given their due as even Churchill, who hated Bolshevism. was prepared to do. ‘The Red Army tore the guts out of the Wehrmacht’ as he put it.

A holocaust could happen again unfortunately. The linguistic concept is fairly recent in western culture- when I was younger it was referred to as genocide. If, and there are so many ifs in history, Hitler had been removed as Nazi leader even as late as 1944, then it is possible to see how the holocaust could have been massaged into a ‘tactical error’ by a more moderate Nazi regime, one who had made peace with its enemies. In that event, no western historian would have been looking very hard for evidence. No book deals, no careers, no interviews by Paxman.
No doubt the Jewish state of Israel would have highlighted the genocide, but it may not have been given the wider acceptance it enjoys, thankfully, today. Hitler may have invented Death Camps, but he did not invent genocide. He was fully aware of the Armenian Genocide of 1916, sometimes called the ‘so-called Armenian Genocide of 1916’ even today. He knew that genocides can often be shuffled off to the side of historical narrative. He assumed, in regard to the Holocaust, that he would be victorious and have no case to answer. He will not be the last, unfortunately.
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 Re: Holocaust Rememberence Day
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Thu 31 Jan 12:22

I think you are being a tad harsh on the French Sammer.
In the opening month of operation Barbarossa the Wehrmacht thrust over 500 miles into Soviet territory (well some of it was Polish territory that the Soviets had seized two years previously) and killed or captured millions of Red Army troops.
To put that into context it's only 250 miles from the German border to Paris. 500 miles from the German border to the French Atlantic coast.

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 Re: Holocaust Rememberence Day
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Thu 31 Jan 12:35

Grant, the German catastrophe at Stalingrad was caused by several factors but the construction of the Atlantic Wall was not a significant contribution.

The manpower was slave labour and I doubt if building was in full construction phase in late 1942.

The German generals warned that they were overstretched and that the front held by their assorted allies (Romanian, Hungarian and Italian) was a disaster waiting to happen, which was the case when the Soviets attacked.

They had wanted to withdraw, reorganise and stabilise the front but Hitler insisted otherwise and the German Sixth Army paid the price and the Russians were able to capture a recently promoted Field Marshal, a major propaganda coup to supplement their victory.



Post Edited (Thu 31 Jan 12:37)
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 Re: Holocaust Rememberence Day
Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe  
Date:   Thu 31 Jan 17:45

Quote:

The One Who Knocks, Thu 31 Jan 12:22

I think you are being a tad harsh on the French Sammer.
In the opening month of operation Barbarossa the Wehrmacht thrust over 500 miles into Soviet territory (well some of it was Polish territory that the Soviets had seized two years previously) and killed or captured millions of Red Army troops.
To put that into context it's only 250 miles from the German border to Paris. 500 miles from the German border to the French Atlantic coast.


I agree The French get a hard time for their war efforts.
Germany steamrolled their way through Europe and without an English Channel, it may have resulted in the UK also being taken over.
That stretch of water is more than significant in preventing that.

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 Re: Holocaust Rememberence Day
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Thu 31 Jan 22:48

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6C5P-AYGdY
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 Re: Holocaust Rememberence Day
Topic Originator: Grant  
Date:   Sun 3 Feb 00:25

"
Grant,
I don’t think you like the Red Army. I know they behaved atrociously in Berlin when they were let off the leash for two weeks. But where were the bold young Nazi men who had jackbooted their way across Europe"

That's whataboutery of the highest order. There were isolated incidents in all the armies during the World War, however the Nazis and Germans done it in a far more horrific and widespread manner. The Rape of Berlin is up there with how the Japanese treated the Chinese as the absolute pits of humanity.

British soldiers guilty of raping would be punished, it was actively encouraged in Berlin, so no Sammer, I'm not a fan of that.
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 Re: Holocaust Rememberence Day
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Sun 3 Feb 02:00

Grant,

You are being naïve. The UK army has a long a tradition of violence towards the civilian population as any other. Pop over to the Falls Road or Derry if you think I am exaggerating. How many soldiers have been prosecuted for inappropriate firing on Bloody Sunday? None, I think is the answer, and always will be.

You want to be a humanitarian. I try to be that as well in my better moments. The women being assaulted in Berlin in 1945 were, for the most part, the very same people who had voted for Hitler over the last 10 years. They were happy to support him in the good times. They closed their eyes to the camps and the atrocities earlier committed against Jews. So why should I pity them?
These women had no pity for the Nazi rape of Eastern Europe, which is very thinly described in western history, so why should I cry for them? Maybe they got what was coming. Irma Grese, the epitome of female sadism, did not come from nowhere.
A female Soviet officer, who made it Berlin, said she had no sympathy for these German women. She had seen much worse, committed by Nazis, on her journey. Yet 20 years later, she changed her mind, and felt guilty she had not intervened. As a woman she later felt guilty in not helping. But it took 20 years before her heart had softened. That is honesty testimony.

If the UK had taken what the USSR had taken, we would not be talking about human rights. We got off light in W2 and ended up on the right side, commendably so. I agree the Soviet troops were given carte blanche for two weeks; I agree that UK and US troops were not given this latitude, and were officially liable to prosecution. Then again, they never had the spunk to go in and take Berlin. In reality there was little difference. How many US or British troops were convicted of rape or murder in Germany n 1945? Best of luck, because the records have mostly been restricted in the public interest. Easier to read Beevor, an MI5 asset, on Soviet troops; much more comfortable reading.
All armed soldiers are bastards. Only a naïve man thinks his lads are not. That calculated naivete is why the next war is always possible.

sammer

Post Edited (Sun 03 Feb 02:03)
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 Re: Holocaust Rememberence Day
Topic Originator: calpar  
Date:   Sun 3 Feb 10:02

Full of spunk,? what books you reading? Hardy boys ? ffs
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 Re: Holocaust Rememberence Day
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sun 3 Feb 10:16

The UK didn't end up on the right side, the UK was on the right side from the beginning. The Soviet Union ended up on the right side having spent the first two years of the war in a cosy alliance with the Nazi's doing a roaring trade and cooperating greatly in brutalising Poland. I bet the Katyn massacre isn't widely taught in Russian schools.
As for Antony Beevor being an MI5 asset you'd need to provide an inkling of proof for that. I think he is just an historian who writes highly researched enthralling books. If that's not the case then maybe I should discount the lavish praise he heaped upon the fighting men and women of the Red Army in his Stalingrad book.
We perhaps all need to fight these feelings of pride we take in what nations did or didn't so seventy odd years ago. We ourselves personally didn't do anything back then to be proud of. We weren't even born. In the same way I don't blame the children and grandchildren of the Nazi's for what their forefathers done why should the children and grandchildren of the victors get praise?

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 Re: Holocaust Rememberence Day
Topic Originator: calpar  
Date:   Sun 3 Feb 10:20

So in that note, why should we also feel guilt, or sympathy forever for a particular atrocity that happened then, was nothing to do with our current generations after all ?
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 Re: Holocaust Rememberence Day
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sun 3 Feb 10:33

Guilt? Nah nobody now should feel guilty about what happened then unless they were directly involved. Doesn't mean you should forget or try to diminish it though Calpar.

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 Re: Holocaust Rememberence Day
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Sun 3 Feb 23:32

I wholeheartedly agree with TOWK's last two posts.

As for sammer, I am an admirer of your intimate knowledge of DAFC history, but I don't share your sympathies with Soviet/Russian society.

Orwell got Soviet Russia right in 'Animal Farm'; the pigs, originally seen as Stalin's evil elite, have today been replaced by the obscenity that is the Putin autocracy and the oligarch system.

There is much to be admired about Russia's history - Peter and Catherine the Great, Tsar Alexander - but the story of Russia since the Revolution, with the exception of some exploits during WW2, has largely been a tale of woe.

It sticks in my craw that you should belittle Britain's contribution to the war effort pre-D Day. You seem to conveniently forget El Alamein, the Battle of Britain, the Navy's war in the Atlantic, the Battle of Narvik, the sinkings of the Graf Spee, Bismark etc.

Britons should forever be grateful that our parents and grandparents got Churchill as their leader instead of an apologist like Neville Chamberlain or Lord Halifax. I doubt that Russians would be so proud of Stalin.
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 Re: Holocaust Rememberence Day
Topic Originator: calpar  
Date:   Mon 4 Feb 01:05

So lets move on?
I’m up for that
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 Re: Holocaust Rememberence Day
Topic Originator: calpar  
Date:   Mon 4 Feb 01:11

Freedom!
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 Re: Holocaust Rememberence Day
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Mon 4 Feb 10:14

"You are being naïve. The UK army has a long a tradition of violence towards the civilian population as any other. Pop over to the Falls Road or Derry if you think I am exaggerating. How many soldiers have been prosecuted for inappropriate firing on Bloody Sunday? None, I think is the answer, and always will be"

British soldiers were not immune to prosecution for criminal behaviour during "The Troubles" over there.

https://www.upi.com/Archives/1981/01/15/British-sergeants-sentenced-to-life-in-double-Ulster-slaying/4194348382800/
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