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 Is teenager.
Topic Originator: twin par  
Date:   Thu 14 Feb 11:07

Wants to return to Britain. She can go to hell,as far as I'm concerned.She made her bed.

Post Edited (Thu 14 Feb 11:08)
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: PARrot  
Date:   Thu 14 Feb 11:11

Seems to still be a threat. I cant see her being allowed back. I dont think she would be safe in any case.

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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Thu 14 Feb 11:19

Even my lefty liberal sensibilities are telling her she can ram it.

Not phased by the severed heads of captives, not sorry about joining IS but now wants to come back so her baby has a better chance of surviving? Ram it.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: Saltire  
Date:   Thu 14 Feb 11:20

I did laugh at whoever was reading the news saying things about how they have treated britains when Britain are the biggest terrorists in history.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: PARrot  
Date:   Thu 14 Feb 11:29

Quote:

Saltire, Thu 14 Feb 11:20

I did laugh at whoever was reading the news saying things about how they have treated britains when Britain are the biggest terrorists in history.


No we aren't.
That was just silly.

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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: Saltire  
Date:   Thu 14 Feb 11:44

yeah was just friendly invasions of 153 out of the 190 recognised by UN
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: PARrot  
Date:   Thu 14 Feb 11:55

Quote:

Saltire, Thu 14 Feb 11:44

yeah was just friendly invasions of 153 out of the 190 recognised by UN


Can you elaborate.

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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: Saltire  
Date:   Thu 14 Feb 12:20

where would you like to start, Zionism and Saudi arabia creating what is now Israel. Ireland invasions, The falklands, Gibraltar, Tony and the Iraq weapons of mass destruction (not checked under my bed for them yet).
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: PARrot  
Date:   Thu 14 Feb 12:43

That was wordsoup.

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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Thu 14 Feb 12:55

"Doesn't regret going to Syria"Case closed.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Thu 14 Feb 13:10

She should be allowed back - to stand trial and face the consequences.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: parbucks  
Date:   Thu 14 Feb 15:47

She made her bed let her continue to lie in it.

Seems her “husband” has been captured. Maybe the real reason she wants out now.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: PARrot  
Date:   Thu 14 Feb 15:59

The key factor is no remorse.

Im all for forgivness when there is repentance. Not in this case.

Bring her home and put the child in care to protect it then send her back.

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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: parbucks  
Date:   Thu 14 Feb 18:11

“Bring her home and put the child in care to protect it then send her back”.

I think you will find the “snowflakes” would find a way to claim her life would be at risk if sent back and we would be stuck with her.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: twin par  
Date:   Thu 14 Feb 18:14

That's the problem.Excuses will be made for her.She knew what she was doing, she can rot in hell for me.Her British citizenship should be taken from her,as well as the rest of the scum.

Post Edited (Thu 14 Feb 18:35)
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: GG741  
Date:   Fri 15 Feb 02:02

I am not sure of the details of this particular case, but my understanding is that a country cannot take away a person's citizenship unless that person can avail of citizenship of another country (and I suppose that other country has to provide it, if the relevant conditions are met).

If back in the UK, there should be no reason that she could not be trialled for relevant crimes.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Fri 15 Feb 09:54

so what exactly did she do that was so wrong?

she travelled to a foreign country (one we decided not to recognise - but then we don't recognise palestine, taiwan and probably a few more countries)

she wasn't phased by the brutality that was there, but don't think she did any of it herself and i know loads of soldiers and i imagine may nurses/doctors who equally aren't phased by what they see - some people faint at the sight of blood and some aren't. she may also not realise the impact that environment has had on her yet.

she was no doubt brainwashed and radicalised but sounds like her biggest crime was joining a group we don't like.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: PARrot  
Date:   Fri 15 Feb 11:10

Quote:

DBP, Fri 15 Feb 09:54

so what exactly did she do that was so wrong?

she travelled to a foreign country (one we decided not to recognise - but then we don't recognise palestine, taiwan and probably a few more countries)

she wasn't phased by the brutality that was there, but don't think she did any of it herself and i know loads of soldiers and i imagine may nurses/doctors who equally aren't phased by what they see - some people faint at the sight of blood and some aren't. she may also not realise the impact that environment has had on her yet.

she was no doubt brainwashed and radicalised but sounds like her biggest crime was joining a group we don't like.


"....a group we don't like"
If you are serious, I think you need help.

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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Fri 15 Feb 11:27

well from my perspective, that's what it boils down to...

ISIS fighting in syria/iraq - we don't like them, we call them terrorists because they oppose what we believe in and uk folk going off to syria to join them (fighting or otherwise) are being told they can rot in hell

Kurdish Peshmerga fighting in syria/iraq - we do like them because they don't oppose what we believe in and uk folk going off to syria to join them and kill people are welcomed back - although as we've seen, don't then go to turkey for holiday because they don't like them and call them terrorists because they oppose what the turks believe in

i'm not a snowflake, not an apologist, i'd just like someone to tell me what she has done that was so wrong to the point where we would deny her to come home or chuck her straight in jail.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Fri 15 Feb 12:42

"Her British citizenship should be taken from her,as well as the rest of the scum."

GG741 is correct, a person cannot be rendered stateless by stripping them of their citizenship, that is International Law.

That does not prevent the government taking away her passport, and/or refusing to issue one in future.

She travelled to Syria on a false passport (her sister's I believe) so that is the first crime (a serious one as well) which she can be tried for, the legal folks will no doubt have other charges.

"ISIS fighting in syria/iraq - we don't like them, we call them terrorists because they oppose what we believe in and uk folk going off to syria to join them (fighting or otherwise) are being told they can rot in hell"

One of the reasons "we don't like them" ? Google Alan Henning for starters.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: dave67  
Date:   Fri 15 Feb 12:50

I think the majority on here Think''she has made her bed and she can lie in it''

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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: PARrot  
Date:   Fri 15 Feb 13:59

Quote:

DBP, Fri 15 Feb 11:27

well from my perspective, that's what it boils down to...

ISIS fighting in syria/iraq - we don't like them, we call them terrorists because they oppose what we believe in and uk folk going off to syria to join them (fighting or otherwise) are being told they can rot in hell

Kurdish Peshmerga fighting in syria/iraq - we do like them because they don't oppose what we believe in and uk folk going off to syria to join them and kill people are welcomed back - although as we've seen, don't then go to turkey for holiday because they don't like them and call them terrorists because they oppose what the turks believe in

i'm not a snowflake, not an apologist, i'd just like someone to tell me what she has done that was so wrong to the point where we would deny her to come home or chuck her straight in jail.


Maybe you should learn a bit more about ISIS before forming your perspective.

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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Fri 15 Feb 14:31

I haven't disclosed my opinion on isis...

Just trying to get an answer to the question of what she has actually done that is so wrong that she should rot in hell or go direct to jail?

All the answers I seem to be getting is that ISIS are bad but that's not the same thing
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: Saltire  
Date:   Fri 15 Feb 14:47

be waiting a long time DBP same as the inability to see the similarities between how they have conducted themselves and how our governements/forces have conducted themselves and arms trades etc over over years
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Fri 15 Feb 14:52

I blame the Ottaman empire.Oh and Abraham(mostly)
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: Bandy  
Date:   Fri 15 Feb 15:26

"Just trying to get an answer to the question of what she has actually done that is so wrong that she should rot in hell or go direct to jail?"

There are crimes that come under the banner of 'supporting a terrorist organisation' - I'm no legal eagle so don't know the exact phrase - but that's what she'd be prosecuted under if she returns to the UK. If convicted, she can expect some jail time.

She was brainwashed at 15, and has watched 2 of her children die - can you imagine the emotional trauma she's been through? The things she's seen? Just because she says things didn't faze her doesn't mean that they actually didn't. If she makes it back to the UK, or a British embassy, she at least deserves her day in court.

Regards her supposed lack of remorse I would suggest we wait until we hear the full story before deciding whether she's remorseful or not - she's still young, in a war zone, and may well still be under duress - we're judging her emotional state based on a couple of snippets of an interview given whilst 9 months pregnant in a refugee camp. I'd suggest we need more than one interview to assess whether she's remorseful or not given what she's been through.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe  
Date:   Fri 15 Feb 15:50

Quote:

Bandy, Fri 15 Feb 15:26

"Just trying to get an answer to the question of what she has actually done that is so wrong that she should rot in hell or go direct to jail?"

There are crimes that come under the banner of 'supporting a terrorist organisation' - I'm no legal eagle so don't know the exact phrase - but that's what she'd be prosecuted under if she returns to the UK. If convicted, she can expect some jail time.

She was brainwashed at 15, and has watched 2 of her children die - can you imagine the emotional trauma she's been through? The things she's seen? Just because she says things didn't faze her doesn't mean that they actually didn't. If she makes it back to the UK, or a British embassy, she at least deserves her day in court.

Regards her supposed lack of remorse I would suggest we wait until we hear the full story before deciding whether she's remorseful or not - she's still young, in a war zone, and may well still be under duress - we're judging her emotional state based on a couple of snippets of an interview given whilst 9 months pregnant in a refugee camp. I'd suggest we need more than one interview to assess whether she's remorseful or not given what she's been through.


Correct. Too many people believe anything they read in newspapers or social media.
I'm staying on the fence till I hear more facts.
The fact she was 15 gives her some wiggle room as kids are easy targets to radicalise.

If you only turn up to moan then do it elsewhere
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Fri 15 Feb 15:51

Perhaps she didn't say"I have no regrets going"
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Fri 15 Feb 15:54

Thanks Bandy... I suppose it still boils down to the fact that we label the group controlling the area she went to as a terrorist organisation. (although its still unclear to me what she actually did in their name - I personally don't see emmigrating, living, marrying and bearing children as the biggest crime in the world)

I'm also interested if those who say rot in hell, would get their pitch forks out for those who run off to live with in a peshmerga area or in Saudi Arabia for example - and would the crimes of that regime equally be placed at that girls door?
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe  
Date:   Fri 15 Feb 15:57

Quote:

richie5401, Fri 15 Feb 15:51

Perhaps she didn't say"I have no regrets going"


As was said , perhaps she was under duress.
I'm just keeping my options open.

If you only turn up to moan then do it elsewhere
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Fri 15 Feb 16:07

I watched the documentary series fighting ISIS and all I got from it was people going over there and joining militias in an attempt to give their life some purpose.

If you're a religious person, who's religion
is not the 'state' religion and you don't feel like you have any prospects (or in the case of the fighting ISIS documentary - were ex soldiers who weren't successfully integrating back into civvy Street), I can totally see how the option to go where you would be valued would be a big draw.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Fri 15 Feb 17:06

Quote:

richie5401, Fri 15 Feb 15:51

Perhaps she didn't say"I have no regrets going"


https://youtu.be/SooDVtENq9c

Assuming that's real then she did. Also at the end if the interview when asked if she thinks it's the end of the Caliphate, she says she thinks so and doesn't have high hopes.

Admittedly the interview is cut to show those specific bits but there's not much in the way of remorse in there. She appears to be more concerned about the health of her baby.

We probably need the full interview to contextualize it more.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Fri 15 Feb 17:08

Sorry just clocked Richie was making a point not suggesting she didn't say it.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: elvis_lives  
Date:   Fri 15 Feb 18:23

She was 15, she is now 19

Have some perspective. Your life shouldn't be decided by the decisions you make at that age.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: Sligo Mick  
Date:   Fri 15 Feb 18:24

I do love how we are quick to condom the actions of terrorist groups that the actions of the Uk and others helped create,but stand by and watch the Jewish State murder on a daily basis young and not so young Palestinians whose only crime is defending there right to live peacefully.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Fri 15 Feb 18:43

Shamima Begum could presumably be charged with illegal membership of a terrorist organisation as defined by the UN. It might be a bit embarrassing though if her lawyers pointed out in court that Begum was actually supporting UK government policy of the time, i.e overthrowing the Assad regime. What has happened to all those warmongers who were gloating over the inevitable fall of Assad and declaring him to be ‘toast?’ They seem to have fallen very quiet of late. Begum has had the honesty to admit her mission has failed, something they have yet to do.

There is another problem with using the UN directive of IS being a terrorist group as legal instrument. The whole issue of UK born ‘jihadists’ was sparked by the Blair government’s refusal to accept UN policy on Iraq, We accept UN guidance where it suits us, seems to be the policy. I’m sure we have the moral fortitude to convict a teenage girl for her indiscretions; but do we have the same to arraign the adult Mr Anthony Blair on the far more serious charges of waging illegal war? I doubt it. He is still smirking round the streets of London while Begum is being hounded by the tabloids.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: renegade master  
Date:   Fri 15 Feb 18:53

Strange that a Times reporter can find her but our Special Forces couldn't or should we say hadn't completed military ops!
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: Bandy  
Date:   Fri 15 Feb 19:05

Quote:

richie5401, Fri 15 Feb 15:51

Perhaps she didn't say"I have no regrets going"


She did say that.

Two things.

I) Regret and Remorse are different things. I posted about remorse.

II) people don’t always say what they mean.

I’d suggest gathering a fuller picture before deciding her fate.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Fri 15 Feb 19:59

"Strange that a Times reporter can find her but our Special Forces couldn't or should we say hadn't completed military ops!"

She wanted to be "found" by western media to plead her case - if she'd been collared by SF there would have been no such opportunity to manipulate the press etc.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: parbucks  
Date:   Fri 15 Feb 21:59

VEE

You got that first time. Maybe with a little help from her family.

From what I have read(although some will say western propaganda) she only made her way to a refugee camp after the caliphate she was in surrendered and her husband was detained and now in a prison camp. The fact she is allegedly nine months pregnant says she only did this as a calculated last resource.

Who knows whether her claims of losing two other children are in fact true?
Is this just another attempt to manipulate public sentiment.?

This young lady was a few months short of being 16 when she left for Syria and we are told she was immature and indoctrinated. Yet there are those who want to reduce the voting age to 16 as some politicians advocate. Presumably because they are easily influenced.

I rest my case.



Post Edited (Fri 15 Feb 22:37)
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Fri 15 Feb 22:38

' I rest my case,'

What case?
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: parbucks  
Date:   Fri 15 Feb 23:05

“The fact she was 15 gives her some wiggle room as kids are easy targets to radicalise.”

I rest my case: the above quote makes my point. This young lady was a seemingly well educated and a few months short of her 16th birthday.

There are some politicians in Scotland who believe that 16 year olds are mature enough to vote in general elections just as they were allowed to in the Scottish referendum.
Young people are easily influenced by events.

What do they know?
Where do they get their information?
How do they process it based on experience?
Who influences their choices?
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Fri 15 Feb 23:09

She was mature enough to groom two other recruits to the cause, and to arrange travel across international borders into a war zone using a passport illegally.

She had no intention of returning to the UK had the Caliphate been established, and now that it has been crushed she is looking for a better offer rather than except the consequences of her actions.

Now it's time to reap what she sowed - so no get out of jail card.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: twin par  
Date:   Fri 15 Feb 23:41

Agreed.^^^

Post Edited (Fri 15 Feb 23:42)
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sat 16 Feb 01:41

She was under the age of sixteen when she ran off to go to Syria to be in Syria with an older man who married her and then had sex with her. Under any other circumstances we would say she had been groomed and abused.
IS is a wicked organisation with an evil ideology no doubt but the IRA also blew up kids in a shopping centre. If a girl from Ulster had ran off to Eire and gotten pregnant to a member of the IRA would she have been denied her rights as a British citizen?
If she remains lawfully a British citizen then she should receive the same rights as any other citizen. She should also be subject to the same scrutiny as the law sees fit. However that is for the judges and courts to decide.
Terrorists won't change our values? Well it's time to prove it.

Turn on, Tune in, Drop out.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Sat 16 Feb 07:44

Some 16 year olds are mature enough to vote some aren't. Some 18 year olds are mature enough to vote some aren't. Hell some 60 year olds are mature enough to vote some aren't.
You can't judge all 16 year olds based on the actions of one person. Especially as she, was groomed and brainwashed by IS.
That just does not rest any case.

Post Edited (Sat 16 Feb 07:45)
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: parbucks  
Date:   Sun 17 Feb 19:24

By that logic no one should get a vote and democracy is dead.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Sun 17 Feb 19:30

Quote:

parbucks, Sun 17 Feb 19:24

By that logic no one should get a vote and democracy is dead.


No that's not what that says. All it says is that you cannot judge anyone's ability to have a mature opinion solely based upon their age.
There are more factors involved.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: twin par  
Date:   Sun 17 Feb 21:03

No sympathy here.She is a traitor as far as I'm concerned. At 15 you know what is right and wrong. Treason is the word.

Post Edited (Sun 17 Feb 21:04)
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Sun 17 Feb 21:10

Quote:

twin par, Sun 17 Feb 21:03

No sympathy here.She is a traitor as far as I'm concerned. At 15 you know what is right and wrong. Treason is the word.


I have little sympathy as well. However, she is not the first person to return after running off for the ISIS cause. So why is she being treated differently?
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: twin par  
Date:   Sun 17 Feb 22:03

Benefits beckoning.Us poor tax mug payers paying for it . TOTALLY pissed off with shower of free loaders.

Post Edited (Sun 17 Feb 22:32)
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: red-star-par  
Date:   Sun 17 Feb 22:28

I wonder how everyone would feel about this if she was white? I think the media would be pouring out a different slant on it completely. There would be a clamour to return her home, and everyone would be on the side of the poor, wee 15 year old kid who was groomed and radicalised, and then impregnated several times in a far off land
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: twin par  
Date:   Sun 17 Feb 22:48

She will come back, and never work a day in her life.Is that fair ? I've worked since I was 16, now 62 and still grafting. 😠
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Sun 17 Feb 22:56

Why would something that is immutable have any bearing on this case?There will be some that will think it but she will hopefully be judged on her actions.

This has nothing to do with skin colour.



Post Edited (Sun 17 Feb 23:00)
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Sun 17 Feb 23:33

How can she be guilty of treason when she was fighting in support of UK policy in Syria?
How can she be guilty of treason for belonging to an organisation which was in essence founded by our allies, the USA, in Afghanistan and is largely funded by donations from Qatar and Saudi Arabia, two of our friends in the Middle East?
When we have the courage to call to account those who created and fund IS, that will be the day we can moralise about Begum.

Begum went to Syria in what would seem to have been misguided, youthful idealism. Had she gone abroad under the aegis of G4S, based in the UK and one of the largest mercenary companies in the world, she would have been fighting for money and not one cheap would have been heard from our outraged tabloid newspapers. These mercenaries can return to the UK and live off the taxpayer in between contracts naturally, without ever drawing the attention of disgusted Tunbridge Wells.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Sun 17 Feb 23:42

Quote:

twin par, Sun 17 Feb 22:48

She will come back, and never work a day in her life.Is that fair ? I've worked since I was 16, now 62 and still grafting. 😠


Sweeping statements with no basis. Try focusing on the many people who already do this. Probably white and living in a council estate somewhere.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Mon 18 Feb 01:47

Ref: sammer
Sun 17 Feb 23:33

<<< How can she be guilty of treason when she was fighting in support of UK policy in Syria? >>>


What evidence is there that she was fighting?

In support of UK policy?

Can you clarify, Sammer?


I found this interesting, from a Sky News Interview: (interviewer John Sparks)

SPARKS: 'Did you know what Islamic state were doing when you left for Syria? because they had beheaded people. There were executions.'

Ms BEGUM: 'I knew about those things and I was okay with it. Because you know, I started becoming religious just before I left. From what I heard, Islamically, that is all allowed. So I was okay with it.'

SPARKS: 'You didn't question that?'

Ms BEGUM: 'No, not at all.'

(source: https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/full-transcript-shamima-begums-controversial-15844796 )

My opinions: A 15 year old knows right from wrong. If she was radicalised at 15, who's to say she's now unradicalised? Who's to say she's not highly trained and wouldn't become an ISIS plant in Britain?



Post Edited (Mon 18 Feb 01:55)
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Mon 18 Feb 07:45

My opinions: A 15 year old knows right from wrong. If she was radicalised at 15, who's to say she's now unradicalised? Who's to say she's not highly trained and wouldn't become an ISIS plant in Britain?

My question really though is why is she being treated differently by the media from all other people returning from Syria?
The met police chief has said that if she returns she will be questioned and if necessary charged. This she said is what happens with everyone. Begum's case is being blown out of all proportion.

Post Edited (Mon 18 Feb 07:46)
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Mon 18 Feb 11:46

Ref: moviescot
Date: Mon 18 Feb 07:45

<<<My question really though is why is she being treated differently by the media from all other people returning from Syria?
The met police chief has said that if she returns she will be questioned and if necessary charged. This she said is what happens with everyone. Begum's case is being blown out of all proportion.>>>



You think Ms Begum is no threat and that normal processes of interrogation, Law and policing will make sure of that?

I think the subject of returnees from Syria is one that needs bringing into clearer focus.

I tell you what, I've just read this article about folk returning from Syria and it frightens the ar*e off me:

'More than 400 British I*i* J******s have already returned to UK, report warns;'

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/isis-british-jihadis-return-uk-iraq-syria-report-islamic-state-fighters-europe-threat-debate-terror-a8017811.html

I don't see the sense in approaching this situation as if it's not abnormal.



Post Edited (Mon 18 Feb 12:07)
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: widtink  
Date:   Mon 18 Feb 12:07

If anyone finds onandupthepars a**e can they hand it in please😉



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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Mon 18 Feb 12:13

Ref: widtink Mon 18 Feb 12:07

<<<If anyone finds onandupthepars a**e can they hand it in please😉>>>


😉😉😉 It's a cracker!

I'd give you a 'like' if I knew how to do it.

I'm glad we've got to the bottom of things on this thread.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: babs woodhouse  
Date:   Mon 18 Feb 12:52

You know what they say if you run with the CROWS
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Mon 18 Feb 13:15

Quote:

onandupthepars, Mon 18 Feb 11:46

Ref: moviescot
Date: Mon 18 Feb 07:45

<<<My question really though is why is she being treated differently by the media from all other people returning from Syria?
The met police chief has said that if she returns she will be questioned and if necessary charged. This she said is what happens with everyone. Begum's case is being blown out of all proportion.>>>



You think Ms Begum is no threat and that normal processes of interrogation, Law and policing will make sure of that?

I don't think I said she was not a threat. I asked why her case is being portrayed differently from all the other ISIS returnees.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Mon 18 Feb 14:12

Ref: moviescot
Date: Mon 18 Feb 07:45

<<<Begum's case is being blown out of all proportion.>>>

Ref: moviescot
Mon 18 Feb 13:15

<<<I don't think I said she was not a threat. I asked why her case is being portrayed differently from all the other ISIS returnees.>>>


Oh sorry Movie. When you said:

<<<The met police chief has said that if she returns she will be questioned and if necessary charged. This she said is what happens with everyone.>>>

I thought you were implying that that would be quite adequate and sufficient to negate any possible threat.

Ambiguous?

But you meant simply - Why is the media giving her such a lot of coverage compared to other returnees?

I don't know but it's perhaps a case unlike others - young woman married to I*i* fighter, and pregnant by him, wants to return. Maybe got the right ingredients to interest the masses and provoke debate? (Somehow I think that's an understatement.) I'm only guessing but I think the media would still have been as interested even if she hadn't made the remark about beheading. (In other words I think the media would have been just as interested in the sympathy/no sympathy angle anyway.)
I would guess it's her being married to and pregnant by an I*i* fighter, who is or was fighting for the caliphate, that gives it extra interest, makes it a far bigger story?



Post Edited (Mon 18 Feb 14:47)
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Mon 18 Feb 14:57

<<Ms BEGUM: 'I knew about those things and I was okay with it. Because you know, I started becoming religious just before I left. From what I heard, Islamically, that is all allowed. So I was okay with it.'

SPARKS: 'You didn't question that?'

Ms BEGUM: 'No, not at all.'>>

do you think we should ask those question and in turn make the same assumptions of anyone arriving to the uk who has been living in say suadi arabia, who also follow a very conservative form of islam?

and if not, what's the difference other than the saudi state is established and buys stuff from us?
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Mon 18 Feb 15:14

Quote:

onandupthepars, Mon 18 Feb 14:12

Ref: moviescot
Date: Mon 18 Feb 07:45

<<<Begum's case is being blown out of all proportion.>>>

Ref: moviescot
Mon 18 Feb 13:15

<<<I don't think I said she was not a threat. I asked why her case is being portrayed differently from all the other ISIS returnees.>>>


Oh sorry Movie. When you said:

<<<The met police chief has said that if she returns she will be questioned and if necessary charged. This she said is what happens with everyone.>>>

I thought you were implying that that would be quite adequate and sufficient to negate any possible threat.

Ambiguous?

But you meant simply - Why is the media giving her such a lot of coverage compared to other returnees?

I don't know but it's perhaps a case unlike others - young woman married to I*i* fighter, and pregnant by him, wants to return. Maybe got the right ingredients to interest the masses and provoke debate? (Somehow I think that's an understatement.) I'm only guessing but I think the media would still have been as interested even if she hadn't made the remark about beheading. (In other words I think the media would have been just as interested in the sympathy/no sympathy angle anyway.)
I would guess it's her being married to and pregnant by an I*i* fighter, who is or was fighting for the caliphate, that gives it extra interest, makes it a far bigger story?


Or maybe it's a bit of Brexit deflection. She is not be the first girl/woman to come back pregnant.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Mon 18 Feb 15:25

It seems we are mostly agreed that Miss Begum is unlikely to be much of an asset to the UK in the years ahead. Whether she is or might become an actual threat, only time will tell.

Nonetheless she is a UK citizen, a product of our society whether we like it or not, and cannot be denied entry so long as we subscribe to international law. She will presumably be questioned and assessed on her return then placed under some kind of probation. Her casual attitude to execution gives little ground for optimism, but is shared by a large section of the UK public who over the years have called for the re-introduction of the death penalty. So maybe some of our British values have rubbed off on her after all.

The alternative is to contain Begum in some kind of internment camp. There is a long and miserable history of this quasi-legal tactic across all countries, but we in the UK at least have the recent experience of internment in Northern Ireland to warn us of the dangers. Better to keep an eye on her rather than lock her up.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Mon 18 Feb 15:45

Ref: moviescot
Mon 18 Feb 15:14

<<<She is not be the first girl/woman to come back pregnant.>>>

Have you read of others? That'd be interesting to compare them.

Ref: sammer
Date: Mon 18 Feb 15:25

<<<Her casual attitude to execution gives little ground for optimism, but is shared by a large section of the UK public who over the years have called for the re-introduction of the death penalty.>>>

I don't think it's the same. But I always have to question myself ! Is it not the case that journalists have been beheaded by I*i* for no crime other than being western?
That wouldn't be the same at all as calling for the death penalty in the UK for certain crimes such as child murder. Would it?



Post Edited (Mon 18 Feb 15:47)
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe  
Date:   Mon 18 Feb 16:14

It is a weird one. She isn't exactly begging to return given her endorsement of islamic laws.
My head says "f**k her" but not her child but then I think can she be unradicalised .
Probably not.
If there was another incident in the UK then it would be a major thing if she was allowed back whether before or after.

She has shown little remorse if any so while I admire her honesty , she should stay where she is with all the rest.

If you only turn up to moan then do it elsewhere
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Mon 18 Feb 18:00

Not sure if it's honesty, maybe more like she won't say a word against her teacher(s) or religion.



Post Edited (Mon 18 Feb 19:08)
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Mon 18 Feb 19:22

"Is it not the case that journalists have been beheaded by I*i* for no crime other than being western?"

They decapitated a volunteer British humanitarian aid worker, Alan Henning.

Maybe she'd like to visit his family and ask for forgiveness ?
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Mon 18 Feb 19:58

ref: veteraneastender
Mon 18 Feb 19:22


Thanks VEE. Yes I recall hearing about that devastating act of inhumanity.

It and other executions are what Ms Begum said she 'knew about and was okay with.' And it seems is still OK with.

What does it take for those who would automatically be lenient, to press the delay button, i.e. to pause and think about Alan Henning and his family.

For anyone who missed it first time, I repeat:this and other executions are what Ms Begum said she 'knew about and was okay with.' And it seems is still OK with.



(picture from Manchester Evening News)

ALAN HENNING (above) was an English taxicab driver-turned-volunteer humanitarian aid worker. He was the fourth Western hostage killed by Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) whose killing was publicised in a beheading video.

Henning was captured during ISIL's occupation of the Syrian city of Al-Dana in December 2013. He was there helping provide humanitarian relief.

When he was captured, Henning was a driver for the organisation Rochdale Aid 4 Syria. Henning was shown at the end of David Cawthorne Haines's execution video, released in September 2014, and was referred to as being the next victim...A video of Henning's beheading was released in October 2014.

(source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Henning)




Anyway, I think it'll be a legal decision in the end.



Post Edited (Mon 18 Feb 23:34)
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: twin par  
Date:   Mon 18 Feb 22:25

Any sympathy towards her, makes me sick.That is someone's son or daughter been brutaly slaughtered and remains dumped in a bucket. Go to hell.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: red-star-par  
Date:   Mon 18 Feb 23:53

Listen to her speak, I don't think she is the brightest. She is just a daft wee kid that was easily groomed and brainwashed. Presumably she can't say anything bad about IS at the moment as she would probably be killed.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Tue 19 Feb 06:48

i don't think anyone would disagree that the execution of alan henning was shocking and it doesn't seem right that someone out there trying to help was essentially state murdered
(not sure the purpose of the example as firstly, nobody is disagreeing about their view on ISIS and secondly, this was before this girl travelled)

however from my perspective, i think people are confusing sympathy / leniency or being some sort of isis apologist, with just wanting to objectively examine the facts and take arguments to their natural conclusion.

it might be correct that she should rot in hell, i'd just like that damnation to be fully justifiable and applied to all similar cases.

so putting aside the fact that she was a child when she was groomed/brainwashed, that all she seems to have actually done was travel and be married off as a child bride and that we have yet to determine the true nature of her request to come home

if our judgement is based solely on the fact that she went to an aggressive islamic state that practices inhumane islamic law then it begs the question that if the next child decides to follow her newly invigorated religion and goes to one of ISIS's neighbours in the region, suadi arabia, who have beheaded many more people than ISIS could probably dream off and apply a similar aggressive, extreme, conservative version of islamic law and then gets married off and has kids and then a few years later wants to come back to live in the uk ...are they as complicit in all the human rights abuses the saudis undertake, are they as complicit for what's happening in yemen, should that child also rot in hell?
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Tue 19 Feb 14:24

Stick to the issue at hand. The executions were before she went and she knew about them and was, and is, OK with them - in other words supports them in the name of A**ah - because she is an Is***ic fund*****alist who supports terr*****. That's who we're dealing with.



Post Edited (Tue 19 Feb 14:26)
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Tue 19 Feb 14:41

I fail to see the connection between summary execution (aka murder) of innocent people like Alan Henning and public support for the reintroduction of Capital Punishment which would have to entail a judicial process with recourse to appeal etc.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Tue 19 Feb 14:46

You're referring to sammer 's post Mon 18 Feb 15:25 ?
Sammer:
<<< Her casual attitude to execution gives little ground for optimism, but is shared by a large section of the UK public who over the years have called for the re-introduction of the death penalty. So maybe some of our British values have rubbed off on her after all.>>>

Ref: veteraneastender
Tue 19 Feb 14:41

<<<I fail to see the connection between summary execution (aka murder) of innocent people like Alan Henning and public support for the reintroduction of Capital Punishment which would have to entail a judicial process with recourse to appeal etc.>>>

I'm with you VEE.



Post Edited (Tue 19 Feb 14:47)
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: dave67  
Date:   Tue 19 Feb 18:54

ISIS bride Shamima Begum has had her British citizenship revoked, according to reports.

The 19-year-old's family was told the news in a letter from the Home Office seen by ITV news.

It reportedly reads: "Please find enclosed papers that relate to a decision taken by the Home Secretary, to deprive your daughter, Shamima Begum, of her British citizenship.

"In light of the circumstances of your daughter, the notice of the Home Secretary's decision has been served of file today (19th February), and the order removing her British citizenship has subsequently been made."

The letter reportedly said the family had the right to appeal.

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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Tue 19 Feb 19:31

That contradicts opinions given to the effect that an individual can’t be rendered stateless.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: Captain Desmond Fancey  
Date:   Tue 19 Feb 19:52

Well done Sajid Javid if this is indeed the case.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Tue 19 Feb 19:58

If true, this would put her right up pooh inlet without a rowing device - stranded in a refugee camp, stateless and with no passport.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: Captain Desmond Fancey  
Date:   Tue 19 Feb 20:07

Exactly what she deserves in other words.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: parbucks  
Date:   Tue 19 Feb 20:34

Maybe the Home Office has discovered she does have dual nationality.

Bangladeshi or maybe Dutch on account of her parents and husband respectively. In any event the newborn son is apparently entitled to Dutch nationality.

Or maybe the HO playing hard ball and letting her stew a bit more in Syria knowing that if she gets back too easily it will be hard to prove she was complicit with ISIL and get off with a slap on the wrist.
The “ ambulance chasing “ lawyers will be queuing up.



Post Edited (Tue 19 Feb 20:56)
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: twin par  
Date:   Tue 19 Feb 22:31

Justice.Told you so .
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Tue 19 Feb 22:38

"Maybe the Home Office has discovered she does have dual nationality."

So it would appear.

Not sure which other country though - can anybody clarify.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: JTH123  
Date:   Tue 19 Feb 22:46

Bangladesh was mentioned on the news. That's where her mother's from and this entitles her to citizenship.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Wed 20 Feb 02:02

Regarding killing people, I happen to think it is wrong. You can do it summary style or go through legal process with highly paid advocates, judges and bring a state executioner along on the day with a priest to pray for your soul to make it look good. At the end of the day, both are sheer bloody murder. Whether it is an IS video or a Texas execution, the significance lies in the spectacle rather than any social benefit. They are one and the same.

Javid is a political pervert who is using beating up a teenage girl to further his ambition to become a big player in his political party. There are people, I understand, who enjoy seeing teenage girls beaten up, metaphorically at least, and they are now cheering from the sidelines. Begum’s youth, sexuality and motherhood are central to the tabloid narrative: a young male would not attract the same outrage. Javid has not the guts to question where IS came from or how it is funded since he would be destroyed, financially and politically, so he picks on a teenage girl to establish his own patriotic credentials. Anyone impressed by his actions would be impressed by a father beating up his daughter.

Javid’s cynicism is as much a threat to the UK as Begum’s misguided idealism ever was. Maybe time to check his citizenship before he does any more harm.

Using Alan Henning as an example of an innocent victim of IS may not be such a clear cut issue. His death was horrific enough for sure, but the whole issue of humanitarian aid in war zones is clouded in ambiguity as the disappearance of the White Helmets (organised by an ex MI5 toff) indicate. Henning was probably a good man but I am not so sure about those around him.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Wed 20 Feb 02:35

Ref: sammer
Wed 20 Feb 02:02

<<< You can do it summary style or go through legal process ... both are sheer bloody murder. >>>

<<< Javid’s cynicism is as much a threat to the UK as Begum’s misguided idealism ever was. >>>

<<< Using Alan Henning as an example of an innocent victim of IS may not be such a clear cut issue. >>>

I don't know how to put this any kinder Sammer but you seem to be on really dodgy ground. Don't believe everything you think. Seriously, you've come up with a whole bunch of weird stuff there (and not just the bits I've highlighted by quoting them.) Worth having another think about what you've posted there before you go off believing it. Or maybe better just to stay clear of stuff like that because you're not making any sense out of it.



Post Edited (Wed 20 Feb 03:22)
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Wed 20 Feb 03:20

I like to think well of people and give them the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. However, having watched the BBC interview with the teenager Begim, I am afraid I can muster no sympathy whatsoever.

I find it odd that Sammer, who can be so articulate and informative about football matters, becomes totally unhinged when it comes to politics...

Clearly, he has been in Putin's Russia too long.

:)
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Wed 20 Feb 04:05

Ref: sammer
Wed 20 Feb 02:02

<<<the significance lies in the spectacle rather than any social benefit. They are one and the same. >>>


Come on Sammer, you can do better. I think you're needing to reign in your imagination, or use it more constructively. Unless you're just very tired and rambling on autopilot. Altogether it's a cracking example of one of the worst posts I've ever seen ! 😉
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Wed 20 Feb 07:14

Adding emotional reactions to law making never bodes well.

So we now have thrown international law out of the window and the home secretary has the right to make a person stateless.

Just think the power that potentially hands over where the gov can remove citizen and associated rights!

Laws always creep/extend beyond original purpose, so if true then lots of unintentional consequences in the future
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: ParfectXI  
Date:   Wed 20 Feb 08:09

She's not stateless - She had dual passports with Bangladesh as she only came to Britain when she was 3. Therefore Britain has the right to revoke her passport as she will still have "a state".
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: Captain Desmond Fancey  
Date:   Wed 20 Feb 09:05

"So we now have thrown international law out of the window and the home secretary has the right to make a person stateless."

Care to elaborate on what International Law has been broken ? The UK Government are invoking a clause in a 2014 Terrorism Act (perhaps one of Theresa May's few accomplishments as Home Secretary) and therefore acting perfectly legally on this.

Posts like the drivel from Sammer above concerning beating up a teenage girl (ignoring the fact she was privy to, and not put off by, far worse than "beating") proves just how out of touch the left are with reality.


I wouldn't fancy a poke with that....your blade ma'am
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Wed 20 Feb 13:25

From what I heard on the news there was no talk of dual nationality. If she has then that's one thing, if she hasn't then we are breaching a un convention we signed up to and it is widely accepted that making people stateless (especially when they're abroad) threatens law internationally - to keep UK citizens safe across the world we need all States to act lawfully and making people we don't fancy stateless threatens that very system.

Edited to say she doesn't have Bangladeshi citizenship. She is entitled to via her mother so could apply, but from what I can see today, we have made her stateless

Post Edited (Wed 20 Feb 13:27)
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: Captain Desmond Fancey  
Date:   Wed 20 Feb 13:28

Her mother is a Bangladeshi national and, as such, under Bangladeshi law she is too.

Therefore - on the face of it at least - the Home Secretary's move is entirely justified.

I really wish our media would stop giving her the oxygen of publicity. She should be left over there to rot.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Wed 20 Feb 14:49

Total smokescreen to divert from the sh*tfest that's happening in Westminster, we've had Novichok, Drones and now this. The action taken will ultimately cost the UK taxpayer millions, along with the compensation she or her child will eventually receive.
Jarvid turning her into a martyr.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Wed 20 Feb 16:42

'I really wish our media would stop giving her the oxygen of publicity. She should be left over there to rot.'
A good of example of the small-minded, petty vindictiveness which pollutes much of UK political discourse, wallowing in its own ignorance. The publicity has been whipped up by the UK tabloids so that Javid can pose as a ‘strong’ Home Secretary, otherwise we would never have heard of Shamima Begum. Her threat to UK security will be miniscule, but her value to Javid’s political career is enormous.

I have asked why Javid has so far refrained from criticising Saudi Arabia and Qatar for funding IS. That’s before we talk about imposing sanctions. I am still waiting for an answer. Maybe he is starting on Begum first, the better to build up his courage. Soon he may be in Riyadh or Doha banging his fist on the table, making some sheiks tremble.

DBP understands the wider significance of what is being done by playing fast and loose with the law on statelessness. That might have implications for some commenting here, during the post-brexit years which lie ahead, for there may not even be such a thing as a UK passport in 10 years time. Perhaps the good news is that Javid himself may have de facto dual citizenship and can be denied re-entry to the UK under his own legalism.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Wed 20 Feb 18:25




’Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.



Post Edited (Wed 20 Feb 18:47)
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Wed 20 Feb 18:32

Quote:

Captain Desmond Fancey, Wed 20 Feb 13:28

Her mother is a Bangladeshi national and, as such, under Bangladeshi law she is too.

Therefore - on the face of it at least - the Home Secretary's move is entirely justified.

I really wish our media would stop giving her the oxygen of publicity. She should be left over there to rot.


How many other returnees has he removed citizenship from?
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Wed 20 Feb 18:56

Has it not crossed your mind, Sammer et al, that allowing Ms Begum to live here would set a precedent for allowing pregnant young *I*-supporting, Isl**ic funda******ist women to return. I suspect that might be very much welcomed, and potentially exploited by I*i*?

"Thin end of the wedge," I think applies.



Post Edited (Wed 20 Feb 19:02)
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: widtink  
Date:   Wed 20 Feb 19:28

The saga takes another turn....
BBC News - Shamima Begum will not be allowed here, Bangladesh says
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47312207



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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Wed 20 Feb 19:43

Sammer,

To refer back to your post of Wed 20 Feb 02:02:

I find it strange to have to say this because it's so obvious, but it really needs to be said,

Allan Henning was not a 'White Helmet'. Therefore there is no reason AT ALL to even suggest his integrity may be in doubt based on what you have read or heard about the White Helmets or the "humanitarian aid in war zones" you mentioned.

Contrary to your claim, my using him as an example of an innocent victim really is clear cut. As is your way, you've associated things that shouldn't be associated and your narrow train of thought has led you to think there is some connection and basis to the massive generalisations you have ended up applying to him.

What possesses you to post such things? If I was his relative I'd certainly think you're a dozy heap of something and that would be putting it kindly.

You seem to be happy to carry on making unfounded associations and over-generalising; it's a mental process that consistently leads you way off beam.



Post Edited (Wed 20 Feb 19:47)
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: donj  
Date:   Wed 20 Feb 20:31

I think he's basically learned the slopey shoulder trick from his boss.Others agree.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/feb/20/what-do-experts-think-of-revoking-shamima-begums-citizenship
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Wed 20 Feb 21:04

Javid is on very shaky ground here.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: donj  
Date:   Wed 20 Feb 22:11

His plan is to take attention off the biggest disaster in many years and bump his popularity in the sort of voters they have down south.

I did quite well holding back on my descriptions of the voters he is trying to please.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Wed 20 Feb 22:12

OAUP,
The asterisks in your previous post only serve to reflect the gaps in your argument. I am as tribal as the next man I guess, and was brought up as a protestant in a working class housing estate in Dunfermline, who attended Sunday School in Abbey View to boot. But your argument is akin to demanding from me a rousing version of The Sash, a song I thought was garbage when I was 14 years of age and now, at the age of 64, know it to be. I am not prepared to join your tribe. I am neither Christian nor Muslim, but when I see a teenage girl with a child my instinct, like the majority of the people I have been lucky enough to meet on my travels, is to help her: not to hurt her. Many of them have been Christian, Muslim, Jewish and atheist. If you feel differently there is nothing I can offer you. You are not Home Secretary so far as I can gather, but that post carries a responsibility, one of which is to appeal to the better instincts within us: not the basest.

Alan Henning was not a White Helmet so I should not have suggested he was, although I think I did not think I did. From all I can gather he was a decent man who was executed for political spectacle. I stand by my reservations of those who accompanied him to the Syrian border, and mostly left him to make his own way into that war zone. He was apprehended within 30 minutes of crossing the border and there remains the suspicion he was ‘set up’ as a hostage, in order to be held for ransom. It is not a pleasant story and the truth is extremely murky. He was killed mercilessly, for political spectacle, I will agree. But the underlying story has yet to be told and his family remain sceptical of many elements within the official version, so I am hardly out on a limb here.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Wed 20 Feb 22:23

Begum is by no means alone when it comes to the question of statelessness and IS. Here's a similar case relating to an IS fighter who had his Australian citizenship revoked.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-21/is-terrorist-neil-prakash-ok-with-revoked-citizenship/10831832

He looks destined to live out his life in a Turkish jail.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: donj  
Date:   Wed 20 Feb 23:26

We certainly know how to make martyrs I guess.

At least admit they are citizens and if need be a trial.Not this idea which encourages others,who might not leave to do their damage.Lot's of hate in this country now,mostly in England though.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Thu 21 Feb 00:13



Allan Henning. (See my post, Mon 18 Feb 19:58)


(sammer 20 Feb 02:02:)

<<< Using Alan Henning as an example of an innocent victim of IS may not be such a clear cut issue... the whole issue of humanitarian aid in war zones is clouded in ambiguity as the disappearance of the White Helmets (organised by an ex MI5 toff) indicate. Henning was probably a good man but I am not so sure about those around him. >>>>

(sammer 20 Feb 22:12:)

<<<Alan Henning was not a White Helmet so I should not have suggested he was, although I did not think I did. >>>


You didn’t suggest he was a White Helmet, but you use their disappearance as a justification for saying that using him as an example of an innocent victim may not be clear cut.

What is not clear cut about using him as an example of an innocent victim of I*i*?


(sammer, 20 Feb 22:12:)

<<<the underlying story has yet to be told and his family remain sceptical of many elements within the official version, so I am hardly out on a limb here.>>


Whatever you think about humanitarian aid and whether there is a story yet to be told about Allan Henning, using him as an example of an innocent victim of I*i* is clear cut and you were wrong to say otherwise.
.

(sammer, Wed 20 Feb 22:12:)

<<<The asterisks in your previous post only serve to reflect the gaps in your argument. I am as tribal as the next man I guess, and was brought up as a protestant etc. etc... You are not Home Secretary etc. etc... >>>


You've made assumptions about the asterisks that have set you off on a right wonky course there. D’you think they indicate swear words ? They're there because I don't want to use certain words that may trigger some unwanted attention, being as we're on the Net and not much goes unnoticed? Hey but don’t miss a chance will you, to misinterpret and go off on one of your free-association trips – “the Sash”, my “tribe” – your religious disposition, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera…





As a matter of interest, what “tribe” am I in? 😉



Post Edited (Thu 21 Feb 12:08)
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: Captain Desmond Fancey  
Date:   Thu 21 Feb 06:50

"You seem to be happy to carry on making unfounded associations and over-generalising; it's a mental process that consistently leads you way off beam."

It's what left wing hand wringers do.. Anything even slightly right of centre and you're a narrow minded heartless bigot.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Thu 21 Feb 12:28

He thinks I'm that?
Anyway it's not about me. I'm representing another side to the Ms Begum love-in.

A love-in over someone who supports what I*i* do to people who are not even combatants? An outpouring of "compassion" for someone who is "OK with" the murder of Allan Henning.



Post Edited (Thu 21 Feb 13:12)
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe  
Date:   Thu 21 Feb 12:52

What about her baby?
Remembering her child is now a subject of the British state having been born before the citizenship of the mother was revoked by the home office?

If you only turn up to moan then do it elsewhere
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Thu 21 Feb 12:54

Did she think of her child?Why should the state be responsible for an individuals decisions.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe  
Date:   Thu 21 Feb 13:05

Quote:

richie5401, Thu 21 Feb 12:54

Did she think of her child?Why should the state be responsible for an individuals decisions.


This falls under the Geneva convention so just stating a fact.
Leave the moral issues aside for a moment to consider the legalities of the UK abandoning a baby.

If you only turn up to moan then do it elsewhere
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Thu 21 Feb 13:11

Oh it's a baby.Funny how it becomes just a fetus when the situation fits.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Thu 21 Feb 13:32

Quote:

richie5401, Thu 21 Feb 13:11

Oh it's a baby.Funny how it becomes just a fetus when the situation fits.


Eh!!!!
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Thu 21 Feb 13:36

I'm confused.Is she with child?,having a baby? or is it just a fetus?

I'm sure the law will be glad to know.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Thu 21 Feb 14:01

Quote:

richie5401, Thu 21 Feb 13:36

I'm confused.Is she with child?,having a baby? or is it just a fetus?

I'm sure the law will be glad to know.[/quote

What are you whittering on about
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Thu 21 Feb 14:10

One woman's child is another woman's fetus.Who's right?
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe  
Date:   Thu 21 Feb 14:44

She's had the baby ffs

If you only turn up to moan then do it elsewhere
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Thu 21 Feb 14:49

She wanted to return before the birth of her 3rd child.

In any event,the right decision has been made IMO.There has to be consequences for actions.It shows others in the UK thinking about joining the jihad cause that it's not the life they had envisaged.



Post Edited (Thu 21 Feb 15:08)
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy  
Date:   Thu 21 Feb 15:20

Richie, your religion killed in the same manner by which Islam does today so trying to take the moral high ground is absolutely pointless. Your "god" is equally as oppressive as theirs.

To the topic at hand though, I think Sajid Javid has made the correct decision here. The question for me is why others haven't been stripped of their citizenship for colluding with IS. Same question is big news over here in Sweden. My old man worked in counter terrorism policing for years and some of the stories he could tell are absolutely stomach churning so I'm very firm in this one. That said, I'd say that the same principles should apply to Evangelicals, Zionists and Islamists and they should all be considered terrorists. Or at the very least, a threat to public safety and law & order.

Post Edited (Thu 21 Feb 15:21)
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Thu 21 Feb 15:26

Really?i must have missed the part in the New Testament that said "Submit or die".I only read "Peter put away your sword,for he who lives by it will die by it"

Generalising very rarely works but it didn't seem to stop you from trying.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe  
Date:   Thu 21 Feb 15:39

Quote:

richie5401, Thu 21 Feb 15:26

Really?i must have missed the part in the New Testament that said "Submit or die".I only read "Peter put away your sword,for he who lives by it will die by it"

Generalising very rarely works but it didn't seem to stop you from trying.


Generalising and you quote from the Bible?
Back in the real world, even a Christian would recognise a week old baby is innocent but you wish to punish for the sins of the mother it seems?
Please tell me what Jesus would do?

If you only turn up to moan then do it elsewhere
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy  
Date:   Thu 21 Feb 15:40

If all else fails, deflect, deflect, deflect...
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Thu 21 Feb 15:58

Quote:

richie5401, Thu 21 Feb 14:10

One woman's child is another woman's fetus.Who's right?


One of the most puerile comments I have ever read.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Thu 21 Feb 16:18

If all else fails,never give a counter arguement.

Of course Christians would recognise the baby and way before that as well.Why did she make the decision now?Why was the 3rd child so special.I think therein lies her motivation.What would Jesus do?Tell her to follow him.

Puerile?It's actually a well worn reality.



Post Edited (Thu 21 Feb 16:19)
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Thu 21 Feb 16:33

She wants to come back now as she knows the Caliphate is falling apart and the best chance for her baby's survival is to have the support infrastructure that the UK provides.

For all she's done wrong I can absolutely understand her wanting to look after her babys best interests. Any mother would.

If the baby meets the criteria of a UK citizen I'd have no qualms in accepting the baby back. Dont punish the son for the fathers sins n all that 😉
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Thu 21 Feb 16:59

Quote:

richie5401, Thu 21 Feb 16:18

If all else fails,never give a counter arguement.

Of course Christians would recognise the baby and way before that as well.Why did she make the decision now?Why was the 3rd child so special.I think therein lies her motivation.What would Jesus do?Tell her to follow him.

Puerile?It's actually a well worn reality.


No it's puerile. Grow up.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Thu 21 Feb 17:09

I'm sure we are all glad we did.
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe  
Date:   Thu 21 Feb 20:45

Quote:

richie5401, Thu 21 Feb 16:18

If all else fails,never give a counter arguement.

Of course Christians would recognise the baby and way before that as well.Why did she make the decision now?Why was the 3rd child so special.I think therein lies her motivation.What would Jesus do?Tell her to follow him.

Puerile?It's actually a well worn reality.


The first two babies were killed..I'm sure to the mother they were special.
I can't understand this far right Christianity stance.
Even from an atheist standpoint this baby is innocent of anything but somehow a Christian and others say they are both to blame.
How sad is that?

If you only turn up to moan then do it elsewhere
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 Re: Is teenager.
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Thu 21 Feb 23:48

I never claimed she didn't love them/think they were special.I said her motivation was to try to get the heck out of there to preserve her 3rd.

No one in any comment has claimed the baby as anything but innocent.Most of the comments have been centered around her responsibility for her actions.
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