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 What am I?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Fri 22 Feb 15:11

Other folk can call themselves Christians, atheists, agnostics, pagans etc.

Me? The closest term I have found to describe the way I think is “Freethought”.


<<< Freethought (or "free thought") is a philosophical viewpoint which holds that positions regarding truth should be formed on the basis of logic, reason, and empiricism, rather than authority, tradition, revelation, or dogma. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, a freethinker is 'a person who forms their own ideas and opinions rather than accepting those of other people, especially in religious teaching.' The cognitive application of freethought is known as "freethinking", and practitioners of freethought are known as "freethinkers.">>> (source: see link below)

That’s about as far as I’d go with it. There’s more to me than logic, reason and empiricism, such as intuitions, emotions, common sense etc. but I’m certainly not one for accepting stuff just on the basis of authority, tradition, revelation or dogma.

It’s a wee bit useful to have a term like that, because some folk say “Oh you’re a non-believer – don’t you have any beliefs?” I hope it might be useful to others.

I believe in goodness. I like it. I can describe myself broadly as a freethinker who believes in goodness. Not that it comes up a lot!


Freethought link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freethought



Post Edited (Fri 22 Feb 15:17)
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 Re: What am I?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Fri 22 Feb 15:27

My heroes are folk such as Martin Luther King, Gandhi and Mother Teresa*, because of what they did to try and help other folk.

I don't admire the likes of Alexander the Great-Mass-murderer.

*Edit:
Re Mother Teresa - see posts below - why I would no longer include her as a heroine.



Post Edited (Fri 22 Feb 19:58)
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 Re: What am I?
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Fri 22 Feb 15:31

"Truth should be formed on the basis of logic,reason and empiricism"

Agreed.Time,space and matter had a cause.My reason tells me to argue against that is folly.

Mother Theresa?Interesting.
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 Re: What am I?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Fri 22 Feb 15:39

Howdy Richie

<<<Agreed.Time,space and matter had a cause.My reason tells me to argue against that is folly. >>>

You're probably right there, on both counts.

What do find interesting about Mother Teresa?



Post Edited (Fri 22 Feb 15:40)
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 Re: What am I?
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Fri 22 Feb 15:48

I think Richie will be alluding to:

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/9470988?guccounter=1&guce_referrer_us=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_cs=39GSyASU0Mik_4mxHOZbuw

Quite a few different sources stating that she might not quite have been the woman she had the reputation for being in the media.
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 Re: What am I?
Topic Originator: londonparsclub  
Date:   Fri 22 Feb 15:54

Mine was Ali that owned the shop on toonhill road, did us K cider and mad dog 20/20 at a knockdown price.

HF05
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 Re: What am I?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Fri 22 Feb 15:57

Thanks London, I'm having a read...
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 Re: What am I?
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Fri 22 Feb 15:58

You're welcome buddy.
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 Re: What am I?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Fri 22 Feb 16:10

Oh yes I remember now. In her religion suffering is dedicated to Jesus? It's one of the things I don't accept about that religion. I once read the book 'St Therese of Lisieux.' If I mind right, she died of cancer and refused any painkillers because she believed her suffering was beautiful and a gift to Jesus? Hmm. Disturbing. I detest suffering.

You've given us a hard-hitting, eye-opening article there, London. I appreciate you being informative. There's a lot to digest that I'd never heard about. Back to the reading...
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 Re: What am I?
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Fri 22 Feb 16:11

Pretty much spot on LPF."Suffering a gift from God" not difficult to see how that particular doctrine would be/has been open to abuse.
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 Re: What am I?
Topic Originator: widtink  
Date:   Fri 22 Feb 16:11

I'm part atheist and part relaxed empiricist. 🤔



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 Re: What am I?
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Fri 22 Feb 16:16

^you can get a cream for that;)
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 Re: What am I?
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Fri 22 Feb 16:42

You are welcome. Theres a fair bit out there that didn't hit the TV in the same way the good stuff she did did and as Richie says there's always a bit of potential for abuse of power.

As always some stuff is unsubstantiated rumour and conjecture but there's also a fair bit of more reliable testimony as well.
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 Re: What am I?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Fri 22 Feb 17:17

Ref: Richie and London’s reservations regarding Mother Teresa:

I think what disturbs me most in the article you linked, London, are:

a) her attitude towards suffering
b) the accusation of bad medical care

None of the other accusations seem very important, for example, I don't buy the idea of her being ‘a martyr for white bourgeois guilt.' (Sounds like a fancy phrase with no substance) And the accusations are a bit vague.

If her missions were giving good medical care and pain relief - as I assumed was the case - I'd probably overlook the other things.

But, on reading that she reportedly said, "There is something beautiful in seeing the poor accept their lot, to suffer it like Christ's Passion. The world gains much from their suffering.”

That makes me shudder.

The article refers to Christopher Hitchen’s book, ‘The Missionary Position: Mother Teresa in Theory and Practice’. I’ve read a wee bit of it on Google books.

I'm not altogether convinced of the claims about bad medical care, even during a quick look through Hitchen's book on Google books I noticed he described visiting one of M.T.'s orphanages which he said was very clean and seemed to be 'run by charming and devoted people.'

So I need more detailed info. Thanks again for drawing my attention to the issue, Richie and London. I wonder if I'm safe with M.L.King and Ghandi?



Post Edited (Fri 22 Feb 21:17)
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 Re: What am I?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Fri 22 Feb 17:24

I mean the accusation of bad medical care is a very sweeping statement to make about 517 missions in 100 countries. Not saying either way, just need more on that.
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 Re: What am I?
Topic Originator: parsmad68  
Date:   Fri 22 Feb 19:15

A doozer (Fraggle Rock) until I die or win the lottery. That is what I am.
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 Re: What am I?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Fri 22 Feb 19:25

From clicking on a link in the article LondonPar hot-linked :


Men's ward at Mother Teresa's Home - "Nirmal Hriday" (Home for the Dying), Kalighat/ Kolkata, India.
(photo:Mark Makowiecki)


Doesn't look too bad.


According to a study by researchers at Ottowa University, referring to the M. T. mission homes:

" doctors observed a significant lack of hygiene, even unfit conditions, as well as a shortage of actual care, inadequate food, and no painkillers.">>>

<<< Another aspect of the report deals with Mother Teresa’s management of millions of dollars collected by her foundation. The researchers contend the nun was generous dispensing blessings and prayers, but very tight-fisted with her foundation's millions when it came to give assistance to those in distress. During numerous floods in India or following the 1984 Bhopal pesticide disaster at the Union Carbide India Limited, Madhya Pradesh plant, she presented numerous prayers and medallions of the Virgin Mary to the survivors, but no direct monetary support. >>>

DOESN'T SOUND TOO GOOD!

(source: http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/345087



Post Edited (Fri 22 Feb 19:28)
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 Re: What am I?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Fri 22 Feb 19:43

Re Mother Teresa:

My only real interest is the treatment of the people taken in for care.

It seems she put far too much emphasis on prayer and not enough on food and medical care.

I think it's fair to ask would the people have been better off without the mission's care? I guess not unless a hospital would have taken them instead.

So although her charity doesn't seem to have given good value for money, I still think it likely did some good to many individuals.

And it's probably true to say that she inspired thousands around the world to get involved in charity work.

So would I still include her in a list of heroes/heroines ?

No. I'm worried that "no painkillers"* might suggest a policy of encouraging suffering.



*(Ref: my previous post,
<<< " doctors observed a significant lack of hygiene, even unfit conditions, as well as a shortage of actual care, inadequate food, and no painkillers.">>>)



Post Edited (Fri 22 Feb 20:06)
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 Re: What am I?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Fri 22 Feb 21:26

My wee bit research about Mother Teresa - prompted by two ever-alert dotnetters Richie and London - just shows how you/ I can accept and assume certain things for donkeys' years and then one day the donkey turns round and goes "Hee-haw!"
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 Re: What am I?
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Fri 22 Feb 22:18

I think many of us probably believe we are things like free thinkers, but when presented with a situation, we get caught up in the emotion, get our pitch forks out and before we know it we've followed the crowd without thinking about or asking the real questions
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 Re: What am I?
Topic Originator: PARrot  
Date:   Fri 22 Feb 22:32

Quote:

onandupthepars, Fri 22 Feb 19:25

From clicking on a link in the article LondonPar hot-linked :


Men's ward at Mother Teresa's Home - "Nirmal Hriday" (Home for the Dying), Kalighat/ Kolkata, India.
(photo:Mark Makowiecki)


Doesn't look too bad.


According to a study by researchers at Ottowa University, referring to the M. T. mission homes:

" doctors observed a significant lack of hygiene, even unfit conditions, as well as a shortage of actual care, inadequate food, and no painkillers.">>>

<<< Another aspect of the report deals with Mother Teresa’s management of millions of dollars collected by her foundation. The researchers contend the nun was generous dispensing blessings and prayers, but very tight-fisted with her foundation's millions when it came to give assistance to those in distress. During numerous floods in India or following the 1984 Bhopal pesticide disaster at the Union Carbide India Limited, Madhya Pradesh plant, she presented numerous prayers and medallions of the Virgin Mary to the survivors, but no direct monetary support. >>>

DOESN'T SOUND TOO GOOD!

(source: http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/345087


Vatican got a facelift no doubt.

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 Re: What am I?
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Fri 22 Feb 22:49

It's easy done mate I didn't ever really look into her in any depth either so it was a few years after I found out some of the stuff she did wasnt great. Might even have stemmed from some posts on here.

You see someone apparently doing something decent on TV and you dont really have to expect to 'fact check' her.
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 Re: What am I?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Fri 22 Feb 22:52

Yeh DBP, we must all be guilty of it, it's just a matter of to what degree I suppose.

It crossed my mind Parrot. Mother Teresa? Mind, she probably believed the Pope to be God's representative. It would maybe seem natural to her if she did make a contribution there. No, it's too weird. Isn't it?
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 Re: What am I?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Fri 22 Feb 23:24

ref: londonparsfan
Fri 22 Feb 22:49

<<<You see someone apparently doing something decent on TV and you dont really have to expect to 'fact check' her>>>

My goodness London I learned something there. Yes, sometimes people you think you've known all your life, well you know the rest.

BTW, are you in London? I lived in Hackney for nearly 5 years up to my early 30s. A great experience, lots o' memories such as photographing a' the Scottish football fans in Trafalgar Square. Be about 1983? There were folk from all over, some from Germany all in tartan including trews. Folk in the fountains - what a mess, really. I think the locals could appreciate the passion but not the flotillas o' beer cans on the waters o' the fountains an' folk peein' in public. We let oorsel's doon a bit. One guy said would I like to be in a photie, so I gave him my camera and went and stood wi' a crowd wearing Scotland strips. When I got the photo developed, he'd cleverly put us to one side a wee bit so as to include a bin bearing the sign "Keep Rubbish Off the Streets. " Genius really, I had to laugh.



Post Edited (Fri 22 Feb 23:34)
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 Re: What am I?
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Fri 22 Feb 23:30

Who fact checks the facts?

Turn on, Tune in, Drop out.
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 Re: What am I?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Fri 22 Feb 23:57

Aye TOWK, I think that's the idea behind cross-referencing, so we don't make the boob of accepting the first version we come to. I do though, to a certain extent, especially with Wikipedia, thinking it's put together by lots of different folk so it must be peer-reviewed?

BTW, is it "fact-checks"? Sometimes a hyphen makes a difference. The lack o' one had me puzzling for a bit there.



Post Edited (Sat 23 Feb 00:02)
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 Re: What am I?
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sat 23 Feb 00:23

You might need to re-assess you're opinions on Gandhi as well. Some black Africans wouldn't hold him in such high esteem. With most things there are shades of grey and you need to look for the nuance.

Turn on, Tune in, Drop out.
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 Re: What am I?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sat 23 Feb 01:34

Ref: The One Who Knocks
Sat 23 Feb 00:23

<<< You might need to re-assess you're opinions on Gandhi as well. Some black Africans wouldn't hold him in such high esteem. With most things there are shades of grey and you need to look for the nuance.>>>

I gasped! Oh my gosh.😉

Yes I've heard something lately on the telly about Gandhi. I think it was about the partition. saying he more or less sparked civil war?

Truth is, about 30 years ago I read most of a book, "The Life of M.G." by Louis Fischer and was impressed by Gandhi's sincere attempts to tackle big problems. I formed my opinion then that he seemed to be somebody who didn't get everything right but really tried his best, selflessly, for others and for justice. Just recently I was looking into ideas relating to conflict resolution and read some stuff on a site called The Gandhi Research Foundation*. So I haven't done any penetrating research on him.

I think I understand what you mean about "shades of grey" - always gonna get some good and some bad about everyone in positions of power. For example I didn't include Mandela in my list of heroes because of his involvement in training MK.

I feel I'm moving towards a position where it might be that I have to give up thinking of anyone as an out and out hero, maybe accept that some have done heroic things but, yeh some dodgy things as well.

Can no-one be thought of as purely selfless, not even Martin Luther King?

Could you explain what you mean by "look for the nuance" - and give an example?

* (https://www.mkgandhi.org/)



Post Edited (Sat 23 Feb 01:39)
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 Re: What am I?
Topic Originator: P  
Date:   Sat 23 Feb 05:32

“I feel I'm moving towards a position where it might be that I have to give up thinking of anyone as an out and out hero”

How about Hamish French 😃


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 Re: What am I?
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Sat 23 Feb 08:32

I remember watching Malcolm Muggeridge's TV documentary on Mother Teresa when it first came out in the late sixties. It was this that brought Mother Teresa to worldwide attention.

When the crew came to film in the Home for the Dying Destitute, the BBC cameraman considered it futile since the light from the two small windows high up on the walls was totally inadequate. In the end, he was persuaded to have a go.

By any natural explanation this part of the film should have been a failure; instead, it is bathed in an unearthly illumination, less light than a glow. Muggeridge was convinced that this was the first - perhaps the only - miracle recorded by television.

It was largely this that drove the myth (???) that is Mother Teresa.

Christopher Hitchens' polemic on Mother Teresa is an interesting read and his arguments certainly convinced me. But it largely fell on deaf ears as today she is regarded as a saint in Catholic circles.
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 Re: What am I?
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Sat 23 Feb 09:48

I actually left about a year ago so I should probably update my user name! Hackney has a bad rep these days but I always quite liked it. That being said I was only ever really there clubbing or gigging so I was always drunk and having a good time 😀

83 was a bit before my time for going to games but I was at the England and Brazil games and not much has changed in respect of the fountains at Trafalgar - they were definitely well used!
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 Re: What am I?
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Sat 23 Feb 12:51

The really is part of the catholic system that she wholeheartedly embraced.Do goods deeds,make sure everyone sees your good deeds,get rewarded for good deeds(money,title's,sainthood etc)

Not exactly in keeping with the words of Jesus in Matthew 6:1.

But hey,that's showbusines;)
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 Re: What am I?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sat 23 Feb 12:59

Ref: P
Sat 23 Feb 05:32




Yes he does have a certain beatific* look about him.


(*meaning: feeling or expressing blissful happiness;imparting holy bliss.)

Makes me happy anyway 😃



Post Edited (Sat 23 Feb 13:03)
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 Re: What am I?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sat 23 Feb 13:49

Ref: londonparsfan
Sat 23 Feb 09:48


<<< I actually left about a year ago so I should probably update my user name! Hackney has a bad rep these days but I always quite liked it. That being said I was only ever really there clubbing or gigging so I was always drunk and having a good time 😀>>>



London was where I developed a love of walking. Used to get fed up waiting for buses and tubes. Previously, I'd just want to get from A to B as quick as possible, but I came to enjoy taking my time, walking along streets and canals, anywhere new. The treat was to arrive at St James' park or the British Museum or such-like...

It was just the very act of walking distances, the feelings in my legs, of the muscles working. I used to get a lot of satisfaction out of it - it seemed as if I was doing something worthwhile - even admirable, daft idea though it seems now.

Had a mate and we used to go to places like 'Heaven' at Charing Cross, and others where lots of gay folk or mostly black folk went. It was new and they were colourful and lively and there was a sense of fun and relaxation at those places. And I've just remembered the non-stop Jamaican beat at Hackney all through the nights it seemed. I got used to it. Was no bother, I was young then. Doubt if I'd cope now !



Post Edited (Sat 23 Feb 15:00)
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 Re: What am I?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sat 23 Feb 14:13

Ref: richie5401
Sat 23 Feb 12:51

<<< Not exactly in keeping with the words of Jesus in Matthew 6:1.

But hey,that's showbusines;) >>>

It wouldn't bother me, Rich, if folk were doing their good deeds in the public eye, so long as I knew needs were being met and were paramount. I mean there's not really any harm in people knowing about good works is there? Genuine good works - I can't see why they should have to be done in secret.
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 Re: What am I?
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Sat 23 Feb 14:22

She proclaimed to be a follower of Christ but nothing she did was in secret.Was she manipulated for money,probably,did she protest?Never.

"No harm in people knowing about good works"Not at all,as long as it's not self promotion,which having good deeds or works as part of a salvation plan about as man-centered as it gets.
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 Re: What am I?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sat 23 Feb 14:56

Ref: richie5401
Sat 23 Feb 14:22

<<< "No harm in people knowing about good works"Not at all,as long as it's not self promotion,which having good deeds or works as part of a salvation plan about as man-centered as it gets. >>>

As long as the good works get done, that's the main thing. If somebody thinks it'll bring them salvation or fame or whatever I'm not sure I'd bother.

Pretty sure I read in Bob Geldof's book "Is that it?" that when he was asked after "Live Aid" was it worth it? he replied that if even just one person was helped, it was worth it.

I think it's worth looking at it from the viewpoint of someone who benefitted from the good work than from where we sit.

Now isn't there just a little bit of promotion going on with you? Is the Bible the only "good work"? Nothing else counts as good work, worthy of promotion?



Post Edited (Sat 23 Feb 14:57)
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 Re: What am I?
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Sat 23 Feb 15:12

We are talking about two different things.nothing wrong with doing good.However claiming that any good work counts towards salvation is fundamentally anti-christian.

Catholicism as has been stated numerous times is in this respect another religion.

The Bible isn't a "Good work" it's good news.Not sure what you mean by promotion,if you mean an entrance to heaven that's a free gift,not something that can be earned no matter how altruistic the motive.
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 Re: What am I?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sat 23 Feb 16:19

"I am the way and the truth and the life, no man cometh to the Father, but by me."

(source: SELF- PROMOTION Inc.) 😃

Sorry Richie, I couldn't resist it. But I know you're made of stern stuff and can take a joke.



Post Edited (Sat 23 Feb 16:21)
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 Re: What am I?
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Sat 23 Feb 16:33

Well as some have said before either the statement of a mad man or someone who was telling the truth.
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 Re: What am I?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sat 23 Feb 17:12

Anyway if we find ourselves facing judgement one day, I can say, "I'm wi' Richie 5401, he can vouch for the fact that I was honestly deluded." 😉
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 Re: What am I?
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Sat 23 Feb 17:16

pfftt..i will be too busy eating my endless supply of Barbecue beef Hula Hoops;)
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 Re: What am I?
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Sat 23 Feb 17:25

I never made it to Heaven but back in the day Trade, Gatecrasher and Bedrock were all on in there so I'd always quite fancied it.

Reviews on TripAdvisor seem a bit mixed these days with quite a few straight couples saying they dont get let in so I dont know if the ethos has changed a bit as it had a reputation for anyone and anything goes.

London is a great place to walk around. There's so much history crammed into a relatively small area that it's hard not to be impressed. They do a pretty decent job of keeping so many green spaces in the city as well.

As I've just found out today as well it's always a good few degrees warmer than back home too.
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 Re: What am I?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sat 23 Feb 17:44

Ref: richie5401
Sat 23 Feb 17:16

<<< I will be too busy eating my endless supply of Barbecue beef Hula Hoops;)>>>

Lovely. I think any kind of barbecued child's toy would taste good after the Pars winning today. I think I'll go and chew on a leg of my old Muffin the Mule and have that wi' some silly putty.



Post Edited (Sat 23 Feb 17:52)
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 Re: What am I?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sat 23 Feb 18:23

Ref: londonparsfan
Sat 23 Feb 17:25

<<< London is a great place to walk around. There's so much history crammed into a relatively small area that it's hard not to be impressed. They do a pretty decent job of keeping so many green spaces in the city as well.

As I've just found out today as well it's always a good few degrees warmer than back home too. >>>

Aye it's a great place still, I'm sure, apart from the traffic maybe. I only wish I had been into wildlife as much as I am now and had cottoned on to Richmond Park.

But as you say, loads of history and green spaces - and big trees!
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