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 Robert Kraft..
Topic Originator: Berry  
Date:   Fri 22 Feb 17:32

The billionaire and owner of New England Patriots, charged with soliciting prostitution.
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 Re: Robert Kraft..
Topic Originator: MikeyLeonard  
Date:   Sat 23 Feb 00:24

Is that a crime ? Ah well, you learn something new everyday . . . .
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 Re: Robert Kraft..
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sat 23 Feb 00:30

Money can't buy class.

Turn on, Tune in, Drop out.
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 Re: Robert Kraft..
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Sat 23 Feb 03:33

For once, I am actually taking the side of a Trump supporter. Heavens above!

There is an awful lot of pretension surrounding the subject of prostitution. The guy is 77, he's a widower, he's horny. What is the big deal? His first thought on entering the massage parlour? I shouldn't go in here because it might be associated with human trafficking? Doubt it.

Prostitution is perfectly legal in most countries. Some of the bigger brothels here in Australia even have well advertised open days for the public to see what they are all about. On those days you will see plenty of husbands and wives and giggling teenagers queueing to take a look inside.

The lawmakers have (correctly, in my view) concluded that it is safer for all concerned to have a tightly regulated, lawful sex industry rather than allowing it to remain illegal and unregulated with the many dangers associated to that.
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 Re: Robert Kraft..
Topic Originator: General Zod  
Date:   Sat 23 Feb 09:26

We are all prostitutes really.
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 Re: Robert Kraft..
Topic Originator: average white par  
Date:   Sat 23 Feb 09:52

^^ :-)

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 Re: Robert Kraft..
Topic Originator: Dalgety_Par  
Date:   Sun 24 Feb 14:51

At least he's going for women that he knows he needs to pay, and that they're just wanting paid. Better option than ending up with some young gold-digger who pretends to like him, but is just praying for his death so she can inherit some cash.

It's common knowledge that Lionel Messi kept a photo of Hamish French by his bedside as inspiration every morning!
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 Re: Robert Kraft..
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Sun 24 Feb 15:02

Quote:

Dalgety_Par, Sun 24 Feb 14:51

At least he's going for women that he knows he needs to pay, and that they're just wanting paid. Better option than ending up with some young gold-digger who pretends to like him, but is just praying for his death so she can inherit some cash.


Prostitutes are more honest, they want some of your money.
Get married and they want all of your money.
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 Re: Robert Kraft..
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sun 24 Feb 19:33

Ref: OzPar
Sat 23 Feb 03:33

<<< The lawmakers have (correctly, in my view) concluded that it is safer for all concerned to have a tightly regulated, lawful sex industry rather than allowing it to remain illegal and unregulated with the many dangers associated to that.>>>

Seeing as it's always likely to exist, seems right to me.

I believe at least some of it does some good. I once had a friend who knew a male prostitute. She told me he'd spend time with his clients, as if they were on a date. Sometimes they were older ladies; regardless, he always told them they were beautiful. They didn't always want sex. Mostly they wanted to be made to feel cherished for a little while. Sounds nice?
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 Re: Robert Kraft..
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Sun 24 Feb 20:08

Paying someone to tell you nice things.No.Not nice at all.Creepy would be a better adjective.
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 Re: Robert Kraft..
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sun 24 Feb 21:04

Och. I met the bloke. A nice bloke, not mercenary. It might sound weird I suppose for such a profession, but quite good-hearted I think. Mid twenties, intelligent, well-informed, good conversationist, I believe and very handsome (a model). I think the ladies probably got a good deal. We'd have to ask them. Some very lonely and/or very bored women. Even though they paid for it, I don't blame them for seeking some fun and comfort, do you? It didn't hurt anyone as far as I know.

Sorry, ladies I don't have his phone number! He'll be in his early fifties now anyway.

But what are your objections, Rich?



Post Edited (Sun 24 Feb 21:10)
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 Re: Robert Kraft..
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Sun 24 Feb 22:11

Just something deeply depressing about paying someone for company.
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 Re: Robert Kraft..
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Mon 25 Feb 00:08

Better than feeling desperately lonely on an intimate level ?
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 Re: Robert Kraft..
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Mon 25 Feb 01:22

I've only been on about harmless stuff, but here's a shocker:

<<< A 2012 article in the journal World Development reported that “countries with legalised prostitution have a statistically significantly larger reported incidence of human trafficking inflows”.* >>>


Legalised prostitution makes trafficking WORSE?! That's not what I expected to see!

(Assumptions assumptions - never assume anything: just do some research. I'm hearing that donkey going hee-haw again.)

*(source: https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/prostitution-decriminalisation-new-zealand-holland-abuse-harm-commercialisation-a7878586.html



Here is the World Development paper referred to above:

'Does Legalised Prostitution Increase Human Trafficking?':

https://eprints.lse.ac.uk/45198/1/Neumayer_Legalized_Prostitution_Increase_2012.pdf


I'll have to study these.



Post Edited (Mon 25 Feb 01:29)
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 Re: Robert Kraft..
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Mon 25 Feb 05:01

Oh dear. The Independent article is a bad, bad, bad - really horrible example. The author is an outspoken, man-hating lesbian feminist whose views verge on the dangerous (if you happen to be a hetero bloke); not the first person you would think of to provide a balanced and thoughtful critique of the global sex industry.

:)

As far as human trafficking inflows are concerned, would it not follow that where you have better-targetted regulation you have more arrests of offenders?
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 Re: Robert Kraft..
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Mon 25 Feb 09:37

This advert has a strong message that certainly made me stop and think.

https://youtu.be/YLNzFxrEZRY
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 Re: Robert Kraft..
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Mon 25 Feb 11:32

I agree Oz, from a cursory reading, the Independent article seems to be written by someone with strong bias, but the conclusion comes from the article by World Development Movement who I believe have some credibility.

I haven't been able to study it yet, but I'm thinking there may be a situation where regulation works in some places to reduce trafficking, but overall it increases.

Is that the kind of thinking TOWK meant when he posted (What am I? thread
Sat 23 Feb 00:23:)

<<< With most things there are shades of grey and you need to look for the nuance.>>>

As I say I've not read the WDM paper yet. And like you, Oz it would be a shock to me, because you'd think regulation and enforcement would suggest the opposite. Nevertheless did you read the WDM paper? (Shouldn't make assumptions on the basis of dislike for a particular journalist?)
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 Re: Robert Kraft..
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Mon 25 Feb 13:09

Yes, onandup, I worked my way through the WDM paper and agree that while it is six years since the study was published, it is credible and does give one pause to think.

Were you to ask me, "do you have any criticisms of it?", I would say yes. Firstly, the study is restricted to three European countries and secondly, I would have some questions about their decision to merge the data from Denmark with Sweden due to limited info. As report methodology goes, that's an odd approach.

That aside, I think it is good that these issues are being debated. It is somewhat counterintuitive to find that better regulation actually leads to more human trafficking, but I'll take the WDM authors at their word.

I still feel more comfortable living in a world where prostitution is decriminalised but better policed and women (and men) can carry out their work in a safe and protected environment, rather than out working alone in poorly lit streets in dangerous neighbourhoods.
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 Re: Robert Kraft..
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Mon 25 Feb 13:18

Better than feeling lonely on an intimate level" that would be something that could be fixed by something other than money.
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 Re: Robert Kraft..
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Mon 25 Feb 14:17

Ref: OzPar
Mon 25 Feb 13:09

Excellent Oz, that you're open-minded about it. I still haven't read the WDM paper. On my lunchbreak now so I'm gonna have a go with it.


<<< Something other than money,>>> Rich? Shows how my mind works, I laughed straight off at my first thought: DIY.
But since there's no smiley, maybe you mean love? There's the problem, for some folk it's very hard or impossible to find. Aha - I've got it - who else would my favourite religious poster mean but Jesus. 😉 Works for some!

I gotta read that WDM paper now.
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 Re: Robert Kraft..
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Mon 25 Feb 14:30

Of course,Jesus but there are plenty of non religious outlets that folks can attend and feel wanted and useful.
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 Re: Robert Kraft..
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Mon 25 Feb 17:31

I’ve read the WDM paper. It’s a tough read. This is what I take from it:

According to estimates, after Germany legalised prostitution, numbers of trafficked prostitutes increased (page 25). Figures for Sweden and Denmark seem to support that same trend (pp23-24).

The authors claim, ‘On average, countries where prostitution is legal experience larger reported human trafficking inflows’ (p2).

Their number increases they say, because, after legalisation, more people use prostitutes and the increase in demand for them means more are “supplied” (p25).

The authors admit their conclusions need to be treated with caution (page 12) and stress the importance of the need for more research (p26).

The evidence is based largely on a UNODC*’Report on Trafficking in Persons’, which has trafficking data for 161 countries, and 3 case studies – Sweden, Denmark and Germany (p11). Only Germany can provide correlative data for both trafficking and prostitution (p22).

It is not a campaigning paper for criminalising prostitution, the authors are aware that banning it - while it might reduce trafficking - could also be detrimental to the working conditions of prostitutes (p26).

The paper was published by WDM and is included on the website of the London School of Economics & Political Science. The website is for users to access’ the research output of the school’.

*(United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime)

MY CONCLUSION

It’s a complex subject. It looks like there may be some serious benefits and some serious harm, whichever option is chosen – prostitution made legal or illegal.

Countries that legalised it presumably felt they had something more concrete to go on?

I’d like to find some of the reasoning and data of the countries that legalised it. I guess they must have debated it in their Parliaments before legislating and maybe produced government white papers?



Post Edited (Mon 25 Feb 23:29)
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 Re: Robert Kraft..
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Mon 25 Feb 22:13

In case anyone is still with me!


I’ve been looking for the reasons why any particular country has de-criminalised prostitution. Not all of Australia has de-criminalised it. New Zealand has. Trafficking doesn’t seem to have been considered in advance of passing their Prostitution Reform Act in 2003. (1)

But according to a Dr Armstrong, writing in The Independent, 29/5/17:(2)

<<< while there is evidence of trafficking into other industries such as fruit picking, there is neither evidence that trafficking into sex work is a problem in New Zealand, nor is there evidence that the size of the sex industry has increased since decriminalisation. In fact, research suggests that decriminalisation has had little impact on the sex worker population at all, apart [from providing] it with protection. >>>

(Sounds like someone with an agenda? Elsewhere I read it's more of a fudge than that would suggest: difficulties with assessing numbers of those involved in the sex industry.)

The New Zealand Act is largely about protection and health for sex workers. And, if we can believe Dr Armstrong, it seems to have had good effects.

<<< A requirement of the law change was that research would be undertaken in the years that followed to evaluate its effect. This study, completed by researchers from the University of Otago’s School of Medicine, highlighted many benefits: more than 60 per cent of the 772 sex workers who participated reported feeling more able to refuse to see certain clients, and 95 per cent said they felt they had rights after decriminalisation. >>>(2)

Also to the good, a reason given by an Aussie organisation in support of de-criminalising was the estimate that HIV infection would be significantly reduced, by about a third. (3)

Looking back on the WDM paper, it seems to me that there is a dearth of data about the subject of legalising prostitution, especially about the effect on trafficking.

Apparently the UK govt is soon to conduct research into the sex trade, 'to ensure we are safeguarding those involved and supporting those who want to exit'.(4)

Sources:

(1) Prostitution Law Reform in New Zealand: https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/research-papers/document/00PLSocRP12051/prostitution-law-reform-in-new-zealand/

(2) (Article by Dr Lynzi Armstrong, a lecturer in criminology at the Victoria University of Wellington, New Zealand): Decriminalising Sex Work is the Only Way to Protect Women - and New Zealand Has Proved That it Works:https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/sex-workers-decriminalisation-of-prostitution-new-zealand-new-law-works-research-proves-sex-workers-a7761426.html

(3) Decriminalising of Sex Work: the Evidence Is In
https://www.afao.org.au/article/decriminalisation-sex-work-evidence/

(4) Will Your Town Become Brothel Capital of UK - Government Plots to make Prostitution LEGAL https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/756986/Sex-for-sale-prostitution-laws-UK-Government-probe-brothels



Post Edited (Mon 25 Feb 23:39)
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 Re: Robert Kraft..
Topic Originator: donj  
Date:   Mon 25 Feb 23:44

His money,their bodies and deal made.

What exactly has it to do with any of us I reckon.Also why it even got made public as nobody should have any interest unless it was underage.
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 Re: Robert Kraft..
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Tue 26 Feb 11:48

Ref: OzPar
Sat 23 Feb 03:33

Just looking back on your earlier post Oz,

<<< Prostitution is perfectly legal in most countries. >>>



I haven't found a list but these maps:
It's only in the green bits where it is "legal and regulated". And the turquoise bits show where it is decriminalised, in NZ and part of Aussie.*






(source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_by_region)




NB The other colours indicate different levels of "legality/illegality/ regulation"


Blue: Abolitionism - prostitution is legal, but organized activities such as brothels and pimping are illegal; prostitution is not regulated

Orange: Neo-abolitionism - illegal to buy sex and for 3rd party involvement, legal to sell sex

Red: Prohibitionism - prostitution illegal

Grey: Legality varies with local laws

(*Maps of the other continents are also available at same site.)



Post Edited (Tue 26 Feb 16:52)
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 Re: Robert Kraft..
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Tue 26 Feb 12:06

Seems weird. Previous map shows prostitution is legal in GB.

<<< In Great Britain (England, Wales and Scotland), prostitution itself (the exchange of sexual services for money) is legal, but a number of related activities, including soliciting in a public place, kerb crawling, owning or managing a brothel, pimping and pandering, are crimes. >>>

Well I never!

(source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_the_United_Kingdom)
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 Re: Robert Kraft..
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Tue 26 Feb 12:06

donj-It was a sting operation into women who were being held in "Sexual servitude".Kraft was a patrons at one of the establishments.Did he know this?Doubtful.
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 Re: Robert Kraft..
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Tue 26 Feb 14:48

It looks as if prostitution is legal AND regulated in very few countries. I wonder if the possible increased trafficking problem is a result of non-regulation. (NZ is regulated and it is claimed they've had no increase in trafficking.)

Anyway,it seems that's what our govt is supposed to be looking into about now - regulation.
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