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 Christchurch
Topic Originator: dave67  
Date:   Fri 15 Mar 07:47

40 dead


https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2019/mar/15/christchurch-shooting-injuries-reported-as-police-respond-to-critical-incident-live
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: dave67  
Date:   Fri 15 Mar 08:06

up to 49 dead now
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Fri 15 Mar 08:35

Good grief. The scumbag streamed it live.

Turn on, Tune in, Drop out.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Fri 15 Mar 09:50

Shocking stuff. Apparently there were IEDs attached to vehicles most of which were made secure or it might have been even worse.

Bangladesh cricket team also caught up in the attack.

4 in custody at the moment.

RIP to the victims and hopefully as many of the injured as possible pull through.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: parfection  
Date:   Fri 15 Mar 10:05

Heartbreaking - an evil act. New Zealand is, in my experience, a very open, welcoming country. My sister and brother in law live there and my family know it well. My daughter did her medical degree placement there and loved it. This is an awful tragedy.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Fri 15 Mar 12:04

CNN already saying Trump is partially to blame for the tragedy.This is not helpful.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sat 16 Mar 00:31

I have seen the footage of the attack. Guy at work had it on his phone and a huddle around him ensued. It is horrific viewing. Not that it's gory but it's like it's a video game, almost surreal. The fact he gets in his car and plays music during his evil rampage only serves to give his actions a soundtrack and is chilling. I just can't understand how people can be wired up that way.

Turn on, Tune in, Drop out.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: Big T Par  
Date:   Sat 16 Mar 00:58

I can't understand why people would willingly want to watch such grotesque scenes.

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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe  
Date:   Sat 16 Mar 01:27

Quote:

Big T Par, Sat 16 Mar 00:58

I can't understand why people would willingly want to watch such grotesque scene
.


Agreed my friend. I can't bear to watch a single scene


I guess only anti muslims could stomach this sickening act of violence.

If you only turn up to moan then do it elsewhere


Post Edited (Sat 16 Mar 01:28)
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: Rastapari  
Date:   Sat 16 Mar 07:27

What kind of dreg watches the footage?

I Hope You're Ok Today....
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sat 16 Mar 08:40

Now that it's out there these extreme right groups are going to be using those scenes to 'inspire' their fellow deranged lunatics for years to come. It's time the social media companies cracked down on far right content in the same manner as they have with extreme Islam. I appreciate it's not easy determining where the line is crossed from free speech to hate speech but these companies have to police their platforms more stringently. And that includes the comments section which is often where the real predujice and hate manifests.

Turn on, Tune in, Drop out.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend  
Date:   Sat 16 Mar 08:59

Quote:

The One Who Knocks, Sat 16 Mar 08:40

Now that it's out there these extreme right groups are going to be using those scenes to 'inspire' their fellow deranged lunatics for years to come. It's time the social media companies cracked down on far right content in the same manner as they have with extreme Islam. I appreciate it's not easy determining where the line is crossed from free speech to hate speech but these companies have to police their platforms more stringently. And that includes the comments section which is often where the real predujice and hate manifests.


Spot on




It's bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Sat 16 Mar 11:38

"What kind of dregs watches the footage"

How many millions watched the church fight scene in Kingsman?
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sat 16 Mar 12:32

Richie that's not even remotely similar. One was fiction the other was a real world act of barbarity. Something similar would be how many people watched the footage of the nutjob firing on the concert goers in Las Vegas or the planes slamming into the Twin Towers.

Turn on, Tune in, Drop out.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Sat 16 Mar 12:42

"One was fiction"...Created from the minds and hearts of men.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Sat 16 Mar 12:55

Richie has difficulty distinguishing between fact and fiction.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Sat 16 Mar 12:58

Men create evil.Explain the fiction please?
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: MikeyLeonard  
Date:   Sat 16 Mar 13:04

Aww FFS Richie. . .gonnae no ?
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Sat 16 Mar 13:07

Gonnae no?..What? Have a conversation why men perpetrate these horrific acts.Seems a natural debate to have.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: Rastapari  
Date:   Sat 16 Mar 13:09

Quote:

richie5401, Sat 16 Mar 11:38

"What kind of dregs watches the footage"

How many millions watched the church fight scene in Kingsman?


Jebus wept.

I Hope You're Ok Today....
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: Andrew283  
Date:   Sun 17 Mar 00:12

Quote:

Big T Par, Sat 16 Mar 00:58

I can't understand why people would willingly want to watch such grotesque scenes.


Not gonna lie, I've willingly watched a lot of rather...messed up things on the internet that I'm not particularly proud of. Curiosity is a hell of a weird thing sometimes

Edit: That sounds like I'd watch this live, I think the moment I realised what was actually going on, no chance. I've seen the first 10 seconds of Mexican cartel torture/rival gang murder and wanted to tear my eyes and ears off.

Post Edited (Sun 17 Mar 00:15)
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Mon 18 Mar 11:40

Govt official in NZ already urging gun owners to hand in their weapons.

Why?What did they do?
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Mon 18 Mar 13:28

They are mirroring what Australia did with its laws after the Port Arthur massacre occurred in 1996. This policy is widely regarded as a success though it met with some strong opposition from the gun lobby initially.

Of course, it does not go without notice that the Christchurch gunman was an Aussie. Perhaps ultimately all the law did was export the problem to our neighbours in NZ.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Mon 18 Mar 13:36

It seems to me an odd reaction that when an individual goes crazy with a gun,the politicians want to make every other citizen defenseless.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: BigJPar  
Date:   Mon 18 Mar 13:58

Quote:

richie5401, Mon 18 Mar 13:36

It seems to me an odd reaction that when an individual goes crazy with a gun,the politicians want to make every other citizen defenseless.


It's not the wild west we are in.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Mon 18 Mar 14:25

The vast majority would agree.It's the minority that haven't signed up.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe  
Date:   Mon 18 Mar 18:04

Banning guns has proven to be a deterrent the world over Ritchie.
All stats back me up.

If you only turn up to moan then do it elsewhere
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Mon 18 Mar 22:30

Where are the stats.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: SergioDuarte  
Date:   Mon 18 Mar 23:24

FML we actually have a crazed gun nut on .net??? Jesus Wept.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe  
Date:   Mon 18 Mar 23:38

Quote:

richie5401, Mon 18 Mar 22:30

Where are the stats.


I'll give you two simple ones to begin with.
Following Dunblane, guns were banned in the UK.
Result, no more mass killings in schools by guns.
America? More than ever.
Following a school massacre in Australia, guns were banned.
Result, no more school massacres.
America, yep. Still more than ever.

The first line of defence is to stop the tools that cause these senseless acts but I guess you'll just never get it Ritchie.

If you only turn up to moan then do it elsewhere
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: PARrot  
Date:   Mon 18 Mar 23:45

Why are Americans osessed with defending themselves. No European country feels a need have guns for protection. Sort what you are doing wrong and you can relax like the rest of the civilised world.

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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Tue 19 Mar 00:01

There haven't been any school shootings in Australia but it hasn't prevented other gun deaths all over the country.

We aren't even talking about school shootings.The recent trend is religious targets from all faiths all over the planet.

99.9% + of gun owners everywhere around the world are responsible with their weapons.

Practically speaking it would be impossible implement your plan.Not many would give up their first line of defense,particularly if they have done nothing illegal.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe  
Date:   Tue 19 Mar 00:14

Quote:

richie5401, Tue 19 Mar 00:01

There haven't been any school shootings in Australia but it hasn't prevented other gun deaths all over the country.

We aren't even talking about school shootings.The recent trend is religious targets from all faiths all over the planet.

99.9% + of gun owners everywhere around the world are responsible with their weapons.

Practically speaking it would be impossible implement your plan.Not many would give up their first line of defense,particularly if they have done nothing illegal.


Except this mythical 'first line of defence' only seems to apply to Americans.
The rest of humanity just gets on with things without the rate of mass murders we see in the USA.

If you only turn up to moan then do it elsewhere
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Tue 19 Mar 00:38

20% of the population of NZ own guns.

The vast amount of the U.S "get on with things" as well.

Why attack the majority in any country?

What are the solutions that prevent the minority from inflicting these attacks?
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Tue 19 Mar 09:32

Gun Deaths per 100k inhabitants

NZ - 1.07 (0.84 of which is suicide) - 30 guns per 100k
UK - 0.23 (0.15 of which is suicide) - 2.8 guns per 100k
US - 11.96 (7.10 of which is suicide) - 120.5 guns per 100k
AUS - 1.04 (0.80 of which is suicide) - 13.7 guns per 100k
SA - 8.30 (0.1 of which is suicide) - 12.7 guns per 100k
Singapore - 0.025 (0.0165 of which is suicide) - 0.5 guns per 100k
Romania - 0.14 (0.06 of which is suicide) - 0.70 guns per 100k
Japan - 0.06 (0.004 of which is suicide) - 0.60 guns per 100k.

Singapore, Romania and Japan have some of the worlds toughest gun laws.


Just some stats from various countries. UK doing ok on this list.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: BoAPar  
Date:   Tue 19 Mar 09:35

The NZ Govt haven't asked people to give up guns.

They're discussing a ban or greater restrictions on semi-automatic weapons.

To get people to give them up, there will likely to be an amnesty and buy back - much like the Australian govt did at the Port Arthur massacre. That scheme was a huge success in the end.

And given the level of anger and hurt here (NZ values it's laid-back freedom far more than guns - ie domestic airport security is pretty much non-existent) I wouldn't be surprised if it passes. It already has support from all political parties.

While 20% of NZ own guns, literally 0% own them for self defence purposes. We have lots of farmers and lots of hunters - there is gun crime here, but it's pretty minimal given the access to guns.

I was down in Christchurch last Monday, and everyone I met with was discussing that they felt that the city had finally turned the corner after the 2011 earthquakes. It's another horrific tragedy for the city.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe  
Date:   Tue 19 Mar 09:38

Quote:

richie5401, Tue 19 Mar 00:38

20% of the population of NZ own guns.

The vast amount of the U.S "get on with things" as well.

Why attack the majority in any country?

What are the solutions that prevent the minority from inflicting these attacks?


There are no easy solutions to prevent a madman killing people but making it harder for someone getting a hold of guns by having a country wide ban on them cuts down the odds massively.
The stats from Moviescot above quite obviously back this up.

If you only turn up to moan then do it elsewhere
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Tue 19 Mar 11:40

"Literally 0% own them for self defense purposes"...Being attacked, burgled or threatened would increase those odds.

The stats MS provided show most gun violence is suicide.

Right.There are no easy solutions,but that hasn't prevented politicians from targeting them anyway.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Tue 19 Mar 11:56

Quote:

richie5401, Tue 19 Mar 11:40

"Literally 0% own them for self defense purposes"...Being attacked, burgled or threatened would increase those odds.

The stats MS provided show most gun violence is suicide.

Right.There are no easy solutions,but that hasn't prevented politicians from targeting them anyway.



It also shows more deaths and suicides dependent on ease of access to guns.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Tue 19 Mar 12:12

What about ropes,pills,alcohol,knives...do we ban those as well?
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend  
Date:   Tue 19 Mar 12:34

So how many people might that nutter have knifed to death in the mosque? Two, three? Certainly nowhere near 50.

Prince Philip asked if we should ban cricket bats after Dunblane, as someone could be killed with a cricket bat






It's bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983


Post Edited (Tue 19 Mar 12:34)
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Tue 19 Mar 12:42

The same question could be asked Raymie if everyone in the mosque was armed.

Unfortunately,that is the road we are heading down.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Tue 19 Mar 12:43

Quote:

richie5401, Tue 19 Mar 12:12

What about ropes,pills,alcohol,knives...do we ban those as well?

Most of the above items have dual uses (possible exception of alcohol). Guns have one use - to kill.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Tue 19 Mar 12:48

Yep..kill for food.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: renegade master  
Date:   Tue 19 Mar 14:22

Must Not Get Involved!

How many knife deaths in London so far this year? Whoops!!!!
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Tue 19 Mar 14:57

Quote:

richie5401, Tue 19 Mar 12:48

Yep..kill for food.


Yes. Only one use to kill. Whether it be for murder, suicide or "food" it still has only one use.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Tue 19 Mar 14:59

Quote:

renegade master, Tue 19 Mar 14:22

Must Not Get Involved!

How many knife deaths in London so far this year? Whoops!!!!


Lots compared to previous years. Now what if these hundreds of teenage gang members had much easier access to guns... I'm sure they can get them but not as easily as walking into a US drug store.
And yes some knifes should not be for sale. The so called zombie knives for one.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: renegade master  
Date:   Tue 19 Mar 17:33

Britain has a number of World, European, Olympic Champions at all levels of shooting from pistol, rifle and shotgun shooting.

Imagine the actions of a radicalised individual on the other side of the World was the reason your lifelong career and hardwork was taken away from you as a golfer, footballer, tennis player.

As I've said previously cars, vans, lorries and bombs have been used throughout the world in terrorist attacks by terrorists but no attempt has been made to restrict these people from driving, owning cars or reading the internet to build devices!

Will removing guns from society prevent those intent terrorists from killing people?

The police can't get close to removing the illegal guns in the UK so what difference would it make? Is a terrorist going to apply for a licence or hire a Uzi which are accessible. Just watch Ross Kemp who recently went out with West Midlands police to try and recover illegal guns, it was a real eye opener I was shocked at the level and the types on the streets!



Post Edited (Tue 19 Mar 17:51)
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Tue 19 Mar 17:40

Err we have gun controls and sportsmen and women are allowed to use guns in the appropriate places not running about the streets with them.

We also licence the use of cars and some people cant be trusted to use them properly either so we try to restrict access to vehicles as well.

It might not stop them but it making it harder to access weapons has an uncanny correlation to having a lower number of gun deaths per capita.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Tue 19 Mar 17:42

If someone manages a mass atrocity with any of a football, tennis ball or golf ball then I think our policing has gone seriously wrong and we'd definitely need a "lessons learned" review although I suspect that's not really that likely?
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: renegade master  
Date:   Tue 19 Mar 17:55

Sorry I should have quoted AAPS. londonparsfan who advocates banning all guns.


Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe like | nolike
Date: Tue 19 Mar 09:38

Quote:

richie5401, Tue 19 Mar 00:38

20% of the population of NZ own guns.

The vast amount of the U.S "get on with things" as well.

Why attack the majority in any country?

What are the solutions that prevent the minority from inflicting these attacks?


There are no easy solutions to prevent a madman killing people but making it harder for someone getting a hold of guns by having a country wide ban on them cuts down the odds massively.
The stats from Moviescot above quite obviously back this up.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Tue 19 Mar 18:23

Sorry I should have checked that adds some context. I did think that was a bit random for you!

I'd have to let AAPS clarify his point but I think he meant ban in line with places like the UK, Australia etc that are considered to have bans but it's really heavy regulation.

I dont know anywhere that has a 100% ban on guns as theres normally exceptions for things like sport and hunting etc. Banning assault weapons tends to be the main bans.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Tue 19 Mar 18:31

Ok..we will agree to disagree on that one,MS.Call it 1,a,b,c and d.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Tue 19 Mar 18:47

Quote:

richie5401, Tue 19 Mar 18:31

Ok..we will agree to disagree on that one,MS.Call it 1,a,b,c and d.


Eh!!!! No idea what you're talking about.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Tue 19 Mar 18:50


Will removing guns from society prevent those intent terrorists from killing people?!

No. But the 3 countries in my list with the tightest gun controls have the fewest deaths. Is that a coincidence?
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Tue 19 Mar 18:53

Well as RM pointed out,a skilled marksman can wound only.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: BoAPar  
Date:   Tue 19 Mar 19:02

"Literally 0% own them for self defense purposes"...Being attacked, burgled or threatened would increase those odds."

Except it hasn't. NZ isn't immune to gun crime - armed robberies are still a thing here, and there have been a number of high profile gun murders in the last 20 years.

Burglaries are common, especially in areas where rich and poor live next to each other.

People still don't keep guns for self defence. It simply isn't a thing here.

Nobody in NZ has suggested that loosening gun laws will help prevent future incidents - there is broad acceptance that there needs to be a conversation about restricting access (most in favour, but some opposed).

And as mentioned above, NZ won't ban guns - it will look to restrict access to semi-automatic weapons.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Tue 19 Mar 19:07

I'm struggling to understand lines 3 and 4.

You seem to be saying burglaries are common,yet folks don't keep/use guns for self defense?
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe  
Date:   Tue 19 Mar 19:09

Clearly I was referring to bans in line with UK and Australia which have worked dramatically.
As was said earlier as far as the London knife killings.
Imagine we had relaxed gun laws and these gangs were armed with these weapons designed for one reason only.
Doesn't take rocket science to see what the results would be.

This argument that cars, lorries, baseball bats and other various assortments can be compared to a device designed for a sole purpose is laughable really.

If you only turn up to moan then do it elsewhere
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe  
Date:   Tue 19 Mar 19:11

Quote:

richie5401, Tue 19 Mar 19:07

I'm struggling to understand lines 3 and 4.

You seem to be saying burglaries are common,yet folks don't keep/use guns for self defense?


Burglaries happen but if house owners had guns, you can be guaranteed the burglar will have one too.
Result being either the burglar is shot or a whole family.
I'd personally prefer to lose posessions than my whole family.

If you only turn up to moan then do it elsewhere
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: PARrot  
Date:   Tue 19 Mar 19:14

https://www.facebook.com/sbsnews/videos/1859089760812484/?sfnsn=mo



Post Edited (Tue 19 Mar 19:15)
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Tue 19 Mar 19:16

Hmm.i'm not sure about that.Most burglars if they know the resident has a firearm will pass on to one that hasn't.Either way it's risky pastime.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe  
Date:   Tue 19 Mar 19:20

Quote:

richie5401, Tue 19 Mar 19:16

Hmm.i'm not sure about that.Most burglars if they know the resident has a firearm will pass on to one that hasn't.Either way it's risky pastime.


How would a burglar know a family doesn't have a gun generally speaking?

If you only turn up to moan then do it elsewhere
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: renegade master  
Date:   Tue 19 Mar 19:27

Lots of if whats and where for here.
Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe like | nolike
Date: Tue 19 Mar 19:09

Clearly I was referring to bans in line with UK and Australia which have worked dramatically.
As was said earlier as far as the London knife killings.
Imagine we had relaxed gun laws and these gangs were armed with these weapons designed for one reason only.
Doesn't take rocket science to see what the results would be.

This argument that cars, lorries, baseball bats and other various assortments can be compared to a device designed for a sole purpose is laughable really.

If you only turn up to moan then do it elsewhere

Lets look at a few basic facts some are very basic.

Poland no terrorist attacks has a zero immigration policy! But has relaxed gun laws.

How many people have been killed with guns in the UK in TERROR attacks?
How many folk have been killed in the Uk using vehicles in TERROR attacks?
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Tue 19 Mar 19:28

That's a good deterrent in itself.Let's say he does know,he's taking a chance.If he doesn't he's taking a chance.

Either way a job that is best avoided.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: renegade master  
Date:   Tue 19 Mar 19:37

Ritchie

I hate to say it however their have been some utter horrendous crimes recently where houses have been targeted while occupied by women and children by criminals intent on stealing legally held weapons.

All the security in the world but when your wife or child has a gun pointing at them and you are being asked to open your secure cabinet..........

I had 2 guys in my garden last year, the noise of the dogs kept them back. 999 i had 2 normal plod cars, 1 dog and 1 ARU at my house within 5 minutes! The quickest was less than 2. this was 3am!
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Tue 19 Mar 19:41

This was my point.Why are the folks who are only protecting their property being lumped in with the criminals.It makes zero sense.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: BoAPar  
Date:   Tue 19 Mar 19:42

Burglaries happen. Muggings happen. Random attacks happen.

People in New Zealand have guns for pest control and hunting (and occasionally armed robberies!).

No one has guns for self defence.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Tue 19 Mar 19:45

Aren't the 3 examples you gave possible acts for self defense?
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: renegade master  
Date:   Tue 19 Mar 19:47

but richie I couldn't protect my house if I wanted to. I have no access to mine without a 6 minute operation to get access.

In the UK you would be more guilty of offence by having a gun to hand in your property it would show you taken zero attempt to secure that weapon.

A certain world champion clay shot got away with it because he had just come back from a days shooting and he had left his guns to dry, an hour after arriving home a gang of 4 masked gunmen walked into his house both him and his wife were pistol whipped while they took his 2 guns worth £30k and all his trophies and medals and then drove off with his car.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Tue 19 Mar 19:56

The law is completely messed up,as is the world.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend  
Date:   Tue 19 Mar 22:28

Where are you living now, boapar?




It's bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: BoAPar  
Date:   Tue 19 Mar 23:24

"Aren't the 3 examples you gave possible acts for self defense?"

Yes - hence my point that despite 20% of the population having access to guns, there is no culture for using guns for self defence in NZ. It simply isn't a thing here.

The proposed changes to gun laws in NZ will impact few people if it is restricted to semi-automatic weapons (which few people have).

I'm in Wellington Raymie - been here 10 years and still loving it. Friday was a horrific shock for the country, but it's heartening to see reactions here - there's going to be a lot of difficult but important conversations in the coming months.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Wed 20 Mar 11:30

That's a good thing BP,you very rarely hear about NZ in relation to any incidents.

I did find it unusual though that Ardern is vowing not to ever say the shooters name.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe  
Date:   Wed 20 Mar 11:51

Quote:

richie5401, Wed 20 Mar 11:30

That's a good thing BP,you very rarely hear about NZ in relation to any incidents.

I did find it unusual though that Ardern is vowing not to ever say the shooters name.


Not really. The guy wanted notoriety so she refuses to give it.
Instead she'd rather remember the victims names.

If you only turn up to moan then do it elsewhere
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Wed 20 Mar 11:56

She is a public servant.It's not about what she wants.

Perhaps BP can give us his opinion as a resident of NZ.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Wed 20 Mar 16:20

NZ govt saying the will arrest folks if they share the video of the shooting.I have no desire to see it,but if anyone has the opportunity they are saying there will be consequences.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Wed 20 Mar 16:45

Quote:

richie5401, Wed 20 Mar 16:20

NZ govt saying the will arrest folks if they share the video of the shooting.I have no desire to see it,but if anyone has the opportunity they are saying there will be consequences.


Good
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Wed 20 Mar 16:59

Agreed.I wonder if there will be any consequences for Facebook.Probably.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend  
Date:   Wed 20 Mar 19:11

Quote:

BoAPar, Tue 19 Mar 23:24

"Aren't the 3 examples you gave possible acts for self defense?"

Yes - hence my point that despite 20% of the population having access to guns, there is no culture for using guns for self defence in NZ. It simply isn't a thing here.

The proposed changes to gun laws in NZ will impact few people if it is restricted to semi-automatic weapons (which few people have).

I'm in Wellington Raymie - been here 10 years and still loving it. Friday was a horrific shock for the country, but it's heartening to see reactions here - there's going to be a lot of difficult but important conversations in the coming months.


We could have met up for a few beers if I’d known. Was in Wellington two years ago watching the Lions. Spent the weekend there and then took the ferry and toured the South Island before flying back to our base in Auckland for the last game from Dunedin.
Loved NZ and the people




It's bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend  
Date:   Wed 20 Mar 19:14

The PM, Jacinda Ardern. Deserves a huge amount of respect and credit. Within the last twenty-four hours, she has only used inclusive language full of humanity and belonging. When asked by President Trump what America could do to help NZ, she replied show compassion and support to Muslim communities. She has chosen to wear the Hijab in a mark of respect. She is the youngest female head of government, a mother, a woman who has shown what leadership should like. Courageous, fiercely intelligent and authentic. She is a beacon of hope in these increasingly dark times. Thank you, Jacinda, for showing us what is possible.




It's bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: BoAPar  
Date:   Wed 20 Mar 23:05

RE: not naming the shooter. I'd suspect most people would agree. There is currently a debate amongst media outlets and whether they will continue to name him. My guess is some will and some won't.

Owning, viewing or sharing the recording was made illegal in NZ on Monday - already been a couple of people up in court this week.

Facebook are now under huge pressure here - a number of major companies are pulling advertising in the aftermath. While it's small numbers in the grand scheme of things, it might be the start of a wider backlash.


Gutted I missed you Raymie - I ended up hanging out with a couple of weird random English guys, as none of my mates managed to get tickets!!
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend  
Date:   Wed 20 Mar 23:40

Not sure when I’ll be back. I hope to some time. Spent a day in Christchurch and spoke to some people who’s lives had been ruined as they were still awaiting compensation from the government for their losses as a result of the earthquakes. Meantime they have had to watch as new offices and retail buildings are erected.
Think if I had to retire somewhere, it would be to Wanaka, an idyllic little town near Queenstown.




It's bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983


Post Edited (Wed 20 Mar 23:41)
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Thu 21 Mar 11:35

I think it's irresponsible not to continue to name the shooter.Why?The natural progression is to blame someone/something else.Which is exactly what happened in the immediate aftermath.The gun,then white supremacy,Trump,his background etc,the list was almost endless

There blame and responsibility falls solely on one man.Brent Tarrant.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe  
Date:   Thu 21 Mar 13:00

It's not irresponsible. The guy craved fame and notoriety and he's not getting it.

If you only turn up to moan then do it elsewhere
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Thu 21 Mar 13:01

He's also not getting the full blame.

As for fame and notoriety that was in his actions,not his name.



Post Edited (Thu 21 Mar 13:15)
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Thu 21 Mar 15:23

AAPS - for the record, semi auto firearms were banned in the U.K. after Michael Ryan’s killing spree in Hungerford, several years before Dunblane.

Handguns after prohibited after the latter tragedy.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Thu 21 Mar 15:58

Quote:

richie5401, Thu 21 Mar 13:01

He's also not getting the full blame.

As for fame and notoriety that was in his actions,not his name.


He is getting the blame and NZ is correct not to give him his craved for publicity/noteriety.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Thu 21 Mar 16:07

It was the PM,not"NZ" that took the lead in not naming him.

As i said earlier it was his act that made him known.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Thu 21 Mar 16:17

Quote:

richie5401, Thu 21 Mar 16:07

It was the PM,not"NZ" that took the lead in not naming him.

As i said earlier it was his act that made him known.


I know it was the PM. I was being generic. Keep his name or of it. Name the victims. Ignore him. He's scum and deserves to be forgotten
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Thu 21 Mar 16:32

Naming him doesn't elevate him in any way.It's just a fact.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Thu 21 Mar 18:30

Quote:

richie5401, Thu 21 Mar 16:32

Naming him doesn't elevate him in any way.It's just a fact.


If you can't see it gives him what he was trying to achieve them you're either stupid or just being obtuse
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: renegade master  
Date:   Thu 21 Mar 19:47

Topic Originator: veteraneastender like | nolike
Date: Thu 21 Mar 15:23

AAPS - for the record, semi auto firearms were banned in the U.K. after Michael Ryan’s killing spree in Hungerford, several years before Dunblane.

Handguns after prohibited after the latter tragedy.

VEE you might want to research both those statements, as both are incorrect!
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Thu 21 Mar 22:00

If you read the manifesto he left MS fame wasn't remotely mentioned.Anger at Immigration policy seemed to be his main beef.



Post Edited (Thu 21 Mar 22:02)
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Thu 21 Mar 22:22

Quote:

richie5401, Thu 21 Mar 22:00

If you read the manifesto he left MS fame wasn't remotely mentioned.Anger at Immigration policy seemed to be his main beef.


Boo hoo. Fame is always the goal. If you read his manifesto you are a sad individual
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Thu 21 Mar 22:27

Yeah,to heck with knowing the motive.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Fri 22 Mar 00:44

If it is lasting fame (well infamy, really) that these loons let loose with guns are looking for, then I don't think it works particularly well. Most people may recall an event, but very few I suspect would remember the name of the perpetrator(s).

While I recall the names of a couple - Bryant in Port Arthur, Breivik in Norway - the vast majority of these maniacs are nameless to me. Each and every one of them was a weak, worthless individual and what little "fame" they garnered was very shortlived.

TBH, until reading this thread I had long forgotten the names of the shooters at Dunblane and Hungerford.

I wonder how many of you remember the names of the killers at Sandy Hook, at Columbine, at Charlie Hebdo, at Las Vegas, at Virginia Tech?

Hopefully, the NZ prime minister has set a trend for others in authority and the media to follow. Starve them of unnecessary publicity and ultimately their evil actions become pointless.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Fri 22 Mar 07:59

^^this
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Fri 22 Mar 08:01

Quote:

richie5401, Thu 21 Mar 22:27

Yeah,to heck with knowing the motive.


You can know the motive without knowing the persons name. The last thing I want to do is read a maniacs ramblings.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Fri 22 Mar 08:33

"VEE you might want to research both those statements, as both are incorrect!"

Apologies for not being totally clear, I was referring to fullbore calibre semi automatic weapons - smallbore (0.22") models can still be held legally on a firearms licence.

Licences are strictly controlled of course and there are stringent conditions for the secure storage of weapons and ammunition AFAIK.

The legislation after Hungerford 1987 was the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988.

Ryan legally held a type 56 semi auto, a Chinese variant of the AK57, and an M1 Carbine.

The Firearms (Amendment) Act 1997, post Dunblane, enacted by the Tories, effectively prohibited all handguns except 0.22" - the incoming Labour government amended that soon after to includes these smallbore pistols.

Ryan's first victim in 1987 was murdered by a semi automatic pistol, the full 13 round magazine - which begs the obvious question why these were not banned in 1988 as well.



Post Edited (Fri 22 Mar 08:36)
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Fri 22 Mar 11:48

Adam Lanza(Sandy Hook)Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris(Columbine)Stephen Paddock(Las vegas)Michael Ryan(Hungerford) Thomas Hamilton(Dunblane)

Do you think any of the families who's kids were killed have forgotten their murderers names?Who is Ardern to say what should be remembered.It's up to the families that are left to decide who and what should be preserved.It's their tragedy,not hers.

As for Ardern wearing the Hijab,i found that insulting,not a mark of respect.She is not a muslim,she's a mormon.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Fri 22 Mar 12:31

American Presidents, including Trump, have worn the kippah when in Israel. I assume it's to show respect to the group they ate addressing.

Turn on, Tune in, Drop out.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Fri 22 Mar 12:42

Never understood it,when i saw it.He professes to be a Christian(no laughing at the back)
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Fri 22 Mar 12:55

I am hoping that you just did a Google search there, richie, because if you really could rattle all those names off without a prompt then there would be concern that your interests are taking you to some very dark places.


<<Do you think any of the families who's kids were killed have forgotten their murderers names?>>

I am sure they do, though I doubt they would know the names of the perpetrators of other atrocities.



<<Who is Ardern to say what should be remembered.It's up to the families that are left to decide who and what should be preserved.It's their tragedy,not hers.>>

Indeed. It is not your tragedy either; perhaps you should keep a respectful distance from it instead of lionising the ramblings and actions of a demented killer who presumably you have never met.



<<As for Ardern wearing the Hijab,i found that insulting,not a mark of respect.She is not a muslim,she's a mormon.>>

What a stupid comment. How can YOU find that insulting? Are you a Muslim?

Have you ever been inside a mosque? As a man, you have to leave your shoes at the door. It is the same if you ever enter the house of a Japanese or a Thai family. If, as a non-Jew, you visit a synagogue, it is considered good manners for you to wear a kippah, a cloth skull cap.

All these actions are displays of respect for the customs of other communities.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Fri 22 Mar 13:04

Not really OZ.When a young boy mows down 20 young children(Sandy Hook)you tend not to forget who did it.

Same with Las Vegas.A man open fire on a crowded concert.You remember.

As for Ardern,did she consult the families to ask if it was appropriate.Probably not.

Your right it's not my tragedy,However i'm not the leader of a nation.All Ardern needed to say to the families and the nation was"Whatever you need,whenever the time we are here for you"That would have been a servant.

If someone who wasn't a christian pretended to be for a few days,yes i would find that insulting,i'm sure that bridges all religions.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Fri 22 Mar 14:34

Quote:

moviescot, Fri 22 Mar 08:01

Quote:

richie5401, Thu 21 Mar 22:27

Yeah,to heck with knowing the motive.


The last thing I want to do is read a maniacs ramblings.


You can just skip past Richie's posts.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Fri 22 Mar 15:11

Yeah,dissent,free exchange of ideas and opinions who would be for that.

She is already getting criticism for it.Not that it will be reported of course.That would be hate speech.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Fri 22 Mar 15:27

''Yeah,dissent,free exchange of ideas and opinions who would be for that.''

Not Donald Trump apparently. It's all fake news.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Fri 22 Mar 15:29

He's wrong.It's biased news.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: BigJPar  
Date:   Fri 22 Mar 16:24

Quote:

richie5401, Fri 22 Mar 15:11

Yeah,dissent,free exchange of ideas and opinions who would be for that.

She is already getting criticism for it.Not that it will be reported of course.That would be hate speech.


That on the white supremacist websites or the NRA gun toting ones? Only reactions I've heard about have been positive, including from the Muslim communities.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend  
Date:   Fri 22 Mar 16:31

She seems a very decent person, unlike some government heads that spring readily to mind. Not fussy what she was wearing. Her actions spoke volumes




It's bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Fri 22 Mar 16:34

Way to go.Conflating white supremacy with the NRA.Demonising an entire group who have done nothing wrong.Base your opinions on what individuals do and say not entire groups.

The Toronto Sun did an excellent opinion piece.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Fri 22 Mar 16:51

Quote:

OzPar, Fri 22 Mar 12:55

I am hoping that you just did a Google search there, richie, because if you really could rattle all those names off without a prompt then there would be concern that your interests are taking you to some very dark places./quote]

^^this
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Fri 22 Mar 16:56

Didn't remember the charlie Hebdo nor Virginia tech shooter.I did remember Nick Leeson though.

We tend to remember ones that were near to us.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Fri 22 Mar 18:16

Quote:

richie5401, Fri 22 Mar 16:56

Didn't remember the charlie Hebdo nor Virginia tech shooter.I did remember Nick Leeson though.

We tend to remember ones that were near to us.


No I don't.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: BigJPar  
Date:   Fri 22 Mar 22:36

Quote:

richie5401, Fri 22 Mar 16:34

Way to go.Conflating white supremacy with the NRA.Demonising an entire group who have done nothing wrong.Base your opinions on what individuals do and say not entire groups.

The Toronto Sun did an excellent opinion piece.


Not saying they are similar at all, just thought it might be the sort of website you trawl when doing your research.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Fri 22 Mar 22:58

I look at all the MSM BigJ.Cnn Fox CBS,Vice news is very good,some really interesting stories and very fair.

I try to watch segments where the guests are varied in their views not just 4 guests in a echo chamber.VV boring.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: donj  
Date:   Sat 23 Mar 00:31

Religion is for those people who follow it.I have met many Muslim people,even went out at night with some.A few actually drank alchohol but most didn't.We still had good nights out.
The point is we have good and bad on both sides.Some of our idiots,cant call them worse here,are much the same as these mad supposedly muslim madmen.Obviously the Christchurch one was one of our mad side.I hate all of them that kill people for 'supposed' religion.

Both religions,in fact all, preach peace and so anybody that thinks killing people is religious has obviously never read their book.

A really sad world both sides have created with just us sensible ones in the middle.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Sat 23 Mar 08:04

Quote:

donj, Sat 23 Mar 00:31
Both religions,in fact all, preach peace and so anybody that thinks killing people is religious has obviously never read their book.


The Koran does not promote peace. Quite the opposite actually.
Thankfully the vast majority are not fundamentalists so ignore the violent message and cherry pick the good bits.

Moderate Muslims will try to defend the Koran by quoting 5.32.
"whoever kills a soul it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one – it is as if he had saved mankind entirely.'
On the face of it this looks like a good peaceful message.
But not only do they not quote the whole verse the context of the following verses make quite different reading.

Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land – it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one – it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors. (Quran 5:32)
Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,  (Quran 5:33)
Except for those who return [repenting] before you apprehend them. And know that Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. (Quran 5:34)

Firstly notice that in 5.32 there is an exception to the rule. For murder and corruption of the land. And it only applies to the Children of Israel ( the Jews) so your normal run of the mill infidels like us are fair game.
The " corruption" is interpreted by many Imams as including disbelief in Islam.

The Koran like the bible has many contradictions but unlike the bible it explicitly states that if there is a contradiction then the text that appears later is what is to be followed.
Now if the Koran was like the bible and got more peaceful as it went on that would be good.
It is not like that though as it reflects Mohammeds life and gets progressively more violent.

The idea that Muslims who turn to violence have not read the book is so wrong.
They are violent because they have read the book. Many it is the only book they have read.

If you even think of raising these points you are immediately shut down and labeled as Islamophobic.

It's a conversion that has to be had honestly if any progress is to be made.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: BoAPar  
Date:   Sat 23 Mar 08:06


<Who is Ardern to say what should be remembered.It's up to the families that are left to decide who and what should be preserved.It's their tragedy,not hers.>

The Muslim community in Christchurch has praised her for focusing on the victims, not the shooter. The vast majority of New Zealanders are praising her for her response. You're wrong on this.


<<As for Ardern wearing the Hijab,i found that insulting,not a mark of respect.She is not a muslim,she's a mormon.>>

How come you get to decide what the community wants, but the Prime Minister of NZ can't be trusted to understand the feelings of some of the people she represents?

Apparently she didn't ask - she decided it was the right thing to do.

NZ is a bi-cultural society, where you'll sometimes get mixed messages on what the most culturally appropriate response is. If in doubt, you go beyond the minimum, as people will generally appreciate the gesture, even if it is misplaced.

But she has been widely praised by the local Muslim community for wearing a head scarf - they stated that it was hugely healing and many Muslim women have said that it has helped them to feel safe this week. Many New Zealand women also wore head scarfs yesterday as a tribute. Some Muslims felt that this was misplaced, but most were happy to have public support (and again feel safe).

Also, she's not a Mormon. She's agnostic. Her parents were religious - she isn't.


<<Your right it's not my tragedy,However i'm not the leader of a nation.All Ardern needed to say to the families and the nation was"Whatever you need,whenever the time we are here for you"That would have been a servant.>>

The Muslim community in NZ have literally praised her for not doing that. They wanted to feel safe and appreciated - and apparently her actions have helped to do that.

There has been minimal criticism to her response in New Zealand to date. The gun ban has generated some anger, but it is more about the speed/lack of consultation, than actual opposition.

Don't be fooled by her overseas reputation - she isn't universally popular in NZ. But she has strong backing because she has brought the other party leaders to Christchurch as well. Her biggest critic in parliament has said that the NRA to keep their noses out of the gun debate.

I'm happy to see any (reputable) sources that criticise her reaction or actions to date. But I'd also warn against giving too much weight to international commentators that perhaps don't understand New Zealand and it's politics.

And please don't quote the comments of "Bishop" Brian Tamaki. He doesn't represent New Zealand opinion on anything.
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Sat 23 Mar 11:39

I dont get to decide what any community wants,it just an opinion.I disagreed with much of the way she handled it.From not naming the killer,to becoming a Muslim for a few days, to announcing the "beauty of Islam"

"Apparently she didn't ask..she felt it was the right thing to do"..In other words she thought it would be ok to pretend(for a short while) to be something she is not.Not entirely out of character for a politician.

All that being said,i don't think she is a bad person.I think she is very emotional and that clouded much of her judgement.

Re:Brian Tamaki,never heard of him till you mentioned.After reading it seems his church had provided a lot for the families in this tragedy.He strongly disagrees about the declaration over the nation the Ms Ardern will proclaim out of the Islamic prayer that allah is the one true God.



Post Edited (Sat 23 Mar 12:13)
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 Re: Christchurch
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Sat 23 Mar 11:40

Excellent summary SIF.Especially the last 2 sentences.
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