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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Mon 18 Jan 21:22
It has taken five years for an enquiry to begin, which surely would not have been the case had a police officer died after a confrontation with a member of the public.
One feature of how this case has been reported is the emphasis on one of the arresting officers being female, and even ‘petite.’ Such gendered remarks are pretty much taboo these days but they have yet to be challenged by any journalist or gender equality spokesperson so far as I am aware.
Justice is always a difficult matter to judge but it would be helpful if at least the truth could be established in the case of Sheku Bayoh.
sammer
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Mon 18 Jan 21:36
According to the video clip, the Scottish Police Federation have established some key facts. They stated that the officers concerned have co-operated ‘fully and truthfully’ with the internal police investigation. I wondered at first how the SPF could be certain of this, but it appears they have ‘compelling material’ that Sheku Bayoh ‘stamped violently’ on the back of a female PC when she was unconscious.
I thought the phrase ‘compelling material’ a little unusual, but we will have to wait and see what that material actually consists of.
sammer
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Topic Originator: red-star-par
Date: Mon 18 Jan 23:56
I certainly wouldn't trust the police on this matter
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Tue 19 Jan 13:25
The Panorama programme last night, would have gmade very uncomfortable viewing for the Police. The eye witness was unflinching in his testimony and stated that no one ever came back to him to go through the statement he gave, two days after Sheku's death.
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: Grant
Date: Tue 19 Jan 22:52
Quote:
GG Riva, Tue 19 Jan 13:25
The Panorama programme last night, would have gmade very uncomfortable viewing for the Police. The eye witness was unflinching in his testimony and stated that no one ever came back to him to go through the statement he gave, two days after Sheku's death.
Do police not have bodycams? If the bodycam footage directly contradicted something the eyewitness had said he probably wouldn't be taken very seriously.
Having not seen the panorama episode can someone explain the gravity behind the stamp and why it's so important, if it gets proven that he did stamp does it then make the proceeding actions acceptable? Or is the insinuation that if the stamp is false then the rest of it might be bullshit etc? Like has the witness confirmed he punched and knocked out the officer etc?
I don't think race played a part in this, I reckon the larger problem was the person on drugs to the extent that even his friends had said it changed his behaviour dramatically, cutting about with a knife before then punching police officers as being a larger mitigating reason behind being restrained, he absolutely shouldn't have died though.
If your job was to restrain someone high on drugs who's been seen cutting about with a knife you'd be s******g yourself right enough though.
Post Edited (Tue 19 Jan 23:00)
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Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend
Date: Wed 20 Jan 01:22
Racism very likely played a part in this
It`s bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983
Post Edited (Wed 20 Jan 01:24)
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Topic Originator: da_no_1
Date: Wed 20 Jan 09:16
At the end of the day the guy shouldn`t have died that night & his family deserve an accurate account of what happened & as it stands the one they`ve been given seems to be a bit sketchy to say the least.
Grant, there was no bodycam footage shown on the programme. There was CCTV footage from camera a fair distance away, but it was very grainy plus there were 3 or 4 police vans parked in the middle of the road just up from the White Heather which seem to obstruct a lot of what went on. One thing you could see quite clearly was the power of the punch that happened, it looked like the policewoman left the ground with a lot of force. This was no slap, it was like one boxer catching another off guard. After that it did just look like he was chased then restrained, but hard to say for definite.
The policewoman says she had no recollection of being stamped on like her colleagues claimed, although this is probably because she was unconscious.
We`ll probably never know what really happened.
"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Wed 20 Jan 10:35
Lord Bracadale, who helped prosecute al-Megrahi for the Lockerbie bombing and Tommy Sheridan for perjury, has promised a ‘thorough and fearless’ inquiry into the events surrounding the death of Sheku Bayoh. The inquiry is expected to take around four years so that by the time it reports Scotland may well be an independent country.
In due course it is highly likely that many statements made in the aftermath of Bayoh’s death will prove to be unfounded, a feature of deaths linked to police actions. Drunken Liverpool supporters did not force entry at Hillsborough in 1989, did not steal money from the pockets of the deceased nor urinate on policemen, despite police sources feeding such information to media. Similarly Menezes, the Brazilian shot at Stockwell station in 2005 was not wearing a bulky jacket on a warm day with wires protruding, did not vault over the ticket barrier and according to fellow passengers was not issued with a warning before being shot by plain clothes police (or SAS operatives, who it was acknowledged were present.) It would be unsurprising, therefore, if the accounts of Sheku Bayoh ever carrying a knife (never found in the subsequent police search) and his stamping on the back of a PC, fail to be established.
The police personally involved in Bayoh’s fatal arrest have little to fear. The Lord Advocate has previously judged they have no case to answer. Although Lord Bracadale claims his inquiry will be inquisitorial- investigating the whole case from fresh- officers under oath will undoubtedly ask for the proviso that any statements they make cannot be used against them in future legal proceedings. They are fireproof. By the time the inquiry reports then any embarrassing personal failures, whether at street or strategic level, can be resolved by officers being pensioned off. After that, the Bayoh family’s only recourse would be a private prosecution.
Police Scotland as an institution may not escape unscathed. Lord Bracadale has an assessor helping his inquiry who had experience of dealing with the fall out from the Stephen Lawrence case, a sign that possible racism (and racism is part of the inquiry’s remit) will feature in the eventual findings. I would anticipate recommendations along the lines of better training, closer links with minority groups, more diversity in recruitment. Police Scotland will claim lessons have been learned, promise to take these recommendations on board, set a few targets but continue to be responsible for investigating their own shortcomings.
sammer
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Wed 20 Jan 10:42
I thought they found the knife discarded in a nearby garden?
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Wed 20 Jan 12:26
Quote da no 1:-
The policewoman says she had no recollection of being stamped on like her colleagues claimed, although this is probably because she was unconscious.
We`ll probably never know what really happened.
This from the Beeb article da :-
PC Short did not mention in her statement she had been stamped on. Now retired, she later said she was unsure if she was conscious, and only learned about the alleged stamping attack when her colleagues told her about it afterwards.
In the CCTV, PC Short appears to get to her feet a few seconds after Mr Bayoh is brought down.
He was brought down within 5 seconds of punching her allegedly
Post Edited (Wed 20 Jan 12:28)
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Topic Originator: da_no_1
Date: Wed 20 Jan 12:34
I`ve watched the CCTV footage shown on Monday night over & over - IMO it`s really hard to see anything conclusive from it apart from the actual punch.
"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
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Topic Originator: buffy
Date: Wed 20 Jan 12:38
Wouldn’t she have had injuries from such a physical act? The hospital / GP staff would surely have evidence to this end. Still not justification for Sheku’s death.
”Buffy’s Buns are the finest in Fife”, J. Spence 2019”
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Wed 20 Jan 12:41
Topic Originator: da_no_1 like | nolike
Date: Wed 20 Jan 12:34
I`ve watched the CCTV footage shown on Monday night over & over - IMO it`s really hard to see anything conclusive from it apart from the actual punch.
Could you see if she got back up when they brought Sheku down da ?
We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Wed 20 Jan 13:03
Regarding a knife, or the knife, being found it depends upon what news agency you prefer. Interesting that the local Kirkcaldy paper is the most circumspect of these below:
AJA : ‘No knife was found in or around his person – but one was reportedly
later found nearby.’
BBC: ‘The knife was found later, in a nearby garden.’
The Sun: (quoting SPF spokesman) ‘The knife was found close by him.”
Fife Today: `There are no confirmed reports of a knife being found by police.`
Incidentally, I wouldn’t place much trust in these two policemen identifying a suspect in court. But I’d fancy myself against Officer B in a 100 metre dash. I think these are statements made as part of the internal police inquiry:
Officer A said: "I cannot emphasise the strength of this guy."
Officer E said: "He was massive and is the biggest male that I have seen."
But Sheku Bayoh wasn`t even the biggest male there that day.
Sheku was a muscular 5ft 10in, weighing 12 stone 10lb.
Officer A was 6ft 4in, of proportionate build.
Officer B was also 6ft 4in and 25 stone
sammer
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Topic Originator: da_no_1
Date: Wed 20 Jan 13:26
It was really hard to say Buspasspar, the footage was really grainy & out of focus.
"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Wed 20 Jan 14:10
Cheers da
We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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Topic Originator: Grant
Date: Wed 20 Jan 15:25
Quote:
Raymie the Legend, Wed 20 Jan 01:22
Racism very likely played a part in this
What makes you say that Raymie?
I just don't get the fascination with the stamp, it seems pretty well accepted that he was on drugs which his friends said changed his behaviour, did have a knife at a point leading upto the event, did punch a police officer with a decent amount of force and wasn't compliant with getting arrested, with all that in mind you've got more than enough justification for restraining someone, it's not like if the stamp hasn't happened we're all going "Aye he was completely fine".
Surely the question should be centred around how he was getting restrained? With that in mind I can't beleive there's not body cam footage, do police officers not have that as a standard? With the quality of the CCTV we're not likely to find out anything either.
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Topic Originator: da_no_1
Date: Wed 20 Jan 16:40
Helluva statement from you there, Raymie
"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Wed 20 Jan 17:08
Without the allegation of stamping, then the arrest of Sheku Bayoh is little different from what can happen at closing time on any Saturday night. PC is pushed or punched; culprit is grabbed, cuffed and slung in the back of a van.
The number of police involved in Bayoh’s arrest and the level of force used requires a greater justification than a suspect lashing out at an officer. Bayoh’s alleged repeated stamping of a PC on the ground shows a degree of malice that might well justify a vigorous reaction so is important to the police case. One PC claimed he thought Bayoh was going to kill the female PC by ‘stomping’ – he used the American term. I have never heard of a person being killed in this manner although it may well be possible. The female PC herself said she feared she was going to die, although other accounts have her unconscious at this point.
If Bayoh had been armed with a knife- and the police will surely claim they believed he was- then the stamping episode would be of no consequence even if it had occurred. But since no knife was on his person the police have to create a clear picture of him being extremely dangerous. The stamping allegation- along with him being drug crazed and of massive size- are an effort to do so.
sammer
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Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Wed 20 Jan 19:01
The stamping allegation appears to be aimed at leaving people with the impression that Sheku was not only a direct threat to life but that he was immensely strong to the extent that the force used to restrain him was justified.
Remember, the officers involved in the incident were given, iirc, 31 days to prepare their statements during which time they could collude with each other as well as with the Police Federation. That is not a system designed to get to the truth and it`s rather telling that other criminal suspects, or witnesses, are not given free reign to come up with their stories at their own leisure.
The enemy travels by private jet, not by dinghy.
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Wed 20 Jan 19:31
OK Guys here`s the layman`s interpretation :-
The police were alerted by someone ? ..I don`t know who ..that there is a big black guy high on drugs with a knife on the rampage
That in itself justifies a large police response
They locate the big black guy and proceed to arrest him
He resists arrest hits a female police officer then tries to flee the scene
He is then intercepted by several police officers but he puts up a resistance so they bring him down
All good so far for the police and the publics safety ... they are doing their job
This is where it gets complicated In their endeavour to restrain the suspect after seeing a police officer go down they are over zealous, over robust and as a consequence the suspect dies
Then rather than admit accidental death or death by mitigating circumstances the officers involved collude to fabricate the evidence and delude the public
Its a no brainer .. admit it Police Scotland .. and give Sheku`s family some belated closure and comfort to let them be at peace
We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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Topic Originator: da_no_1
Date: Wed 20 Jan 20:12
Plenty of coulds, woulds and shoulds on this thread as well as a helluva lot of maybes.
Only the officers involved know exactly what happened. If they were directly responsible for his death, whether they admit it or not, they will have to live with that for the rest of their lives.
We don't know for definite whether the police officers involved acted with racist intent. We dont know for definite if Mr Bayou was a threat to life. Pure speculation on all our parts.
I might be totally wrong but around that time were there not several terrorist related incidents involving knives etc. Maybe on the night they acted out of fear in part. It can't be easy being called to an incident like that not knowing what you're about to face. Training can only help you so much I'd expect. How events pan out cant be straight out a textbook every time.
Anyway, the poor guy didn't deserve to die and his family deserve the truth, whatever it may be.
"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Wed 20 Jan 21:42
Buspasspar,
Your account is probably as accurate as anything which will emerge in the next four years. It corresponds very closely to my own thoughts so I am biased no doubt. But thanks anyhow for a reasoned account.
Sheku was in the wrong, the police approached him in a hostile manner, he became obstreperous and they piled in on top of him to his death. They took the life from a young, fit man on suspicion of carrying a knife he did not actually have. It was one of the worst days in the history of Kirkcaldy police whatever gloss anyone wants to put on it. Their reaction was way beyond reasonable and will have serious repercussions for policing across Scotland for years to come.
Da no 1:
Anyone who feels fear to the detriment of their performance is better not joining the police force. Try something else.
Sheku Bayoh without a knife was no threat to life unless he could have beaten Mike Tyson to pulp with his muscles. He was, if you read my posts, a muscular man of 5/10 tall. Bayoh was smaller and lighter than two of the police who sat on top of him.
Are you seriously expecting anyone to believe that a terrorist attack would be mounted in Hayfield Road, Kirkcaldy? I don’t think Al Queda has as good a map as that. And the incident happened not in the evening but around 7.40am in the morning, rather early for your common or garden terrorist.
sammer
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Topic Originator: TAFKA_Super_Petrie
Date: Wed 20 Jan 21:50
Grant,
No bodycams across the board yet. Think possibly are in in use up in Northeast / Grampian but possibly just as a pilot project at moment.
Not got much to add other than the point about how the initial reporting puts things firmly into the subconcious mind; i had an image in my head that the lad was akin to Michael Clarke Duncan in terms of his physical stature untill i read sammers earlier post.
---------------------------------------------------------------
"People always talk about Ronaldinho and magic, but I didn't see him today. I saw Henrik Larsson; that's where the magic was."
Post Edited (Wed 20 Jan 21:54)
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Topic Originator: da_no_1
Date: Wed 20 Jan 22:06
Sammer calm down. I was speculating as are you no matter how many massive words you put in your posts to try and look cleverer than the rest of us.
Try reading my post properly especially the last sentence
FWIW I have no knowledge of any of the events other than what's being reported. I really don't want to get into an argument. Just trying to look at it from both sides.
"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
Post Edited (Wed 20 Jan 22:16)
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Wed 20 Jan 22:43
da no 1,
Your final sentence reads:
`Anyway, the poor guy didn`t deserve to die and his family deserve the truth, whatever it may be.`
That is less than clear. Even Fife Police under the umbrella of Police Scotland accept that Sheku Bayoh should not have died and acknowledge that something very wrong took place in the incident in Hayfield Road. I think we can all agree he did not deserve to die.
You are implying that the truth might in some way be detrimental to Sheku Bayoh. He was no more Saint Nelson Mandela than the arresting officers were Dixon of Dock Green but thus far any `truth` that has been leaked to the public has been largely detrimental to Sheku Bayoh. I am confident that any further truth, in the terms of this inquiry, will be far more damaging to the narrative put out for public consumption by Police Scotland than anything remaining to be stripped from the character of Sheku Bayoh.
I appreciate your desire to look at the story from both sides but thus far the narrative has been largely controlled by the police. They opposed this public inquiry for that reason and the guilty parties, if any, will be long retired by the time the report concludes. 40 years from now some Police Chief Constable might be laying flowers at Sheku Bayoh`s grave along with church ministers, local worthies and school prefects, heads bowed in reverence. I won`t be there to see it but if you are, throw on a flower for me.
sammer
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Topic Originator: da_no_1
Date: Wed 20 Jan 22:53
How dare you suggest I was implying anything you absolute bully. Retract that remark.
"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
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Topic Originator: londonparsfan
Date: Wed 20 Jan 22:56
For those that don't think race was a factor: how often do the cops in Kirkcaldy think they are walking into a potential Lee Rigby/potential terror attack when they are called out to investigate a white guy with a knife?
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Wed 20 Jan 23:21
I do not ever wish to be a bully. But I read your following comment as a suggestion that the truth might be harmful to the case of Sheku Bayoh.
`Anyway, the poor guy didn`t deserve to die and his family deserve the truth, whatever it may be.`
The last four words I read as a suggestion that he may have an uncomfortable truth exposed to his family. I think any uncomfortable truths have long been highlighted from Police Scotland via the media and that the reputation of Sheku Bayoh has nothing left to lose.
In response to the danger to Fife police, the good news is that no Fife policeman has been killed on duty for over a century. I think it was the late 1880s when a police constable was kicked to death down near Kirkcaldy Harbour. The death rate in mining from the period is astronomical by comparison and even construction.
Front line policing is a thankless job which exposes decent public servants to the worst aspects of anti social behaviour such as head butting, knees in the groin, spitting and shrill verbal abuse. However, in Fife at least, it has not proved fatal for some time.
I
sammer
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Topic Originator: da_no_1
Date: Thu 21 Jan 00:09
Well you read it totally wrong.
"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
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Topic Originator: Grant
Date: Thu 21 Jan 16:29
The police can only go of the information they had at the time, they'd been told he had a knife, and indeed that part of the story doesn't seem disputed anywhere.
They had just seen him deck a female police officer with considerable force, while the police have powers I don't beleive they have the power of x-ray vision, while they couldn't confirm he still had a knife they also couldn't confirm that he didn't have a knife.
And let's be honest, if you're charged with restraining someone who's just shown himself as willing to punch a female, and has been seen with a knife, you're taking no chances with regards to how many people are getting involved with restraining the individual, I honestly don't see the problem with the actions, or the numbers of the police upto the point where they are restraining him.
While no police officers have been killed on duty since 1800 and whenever, people have been killed since by knife crime in Fife, if you're charged with restraining someone who's beleived to hold one who's been behaving erratically and is evidently, violent. You're going to be absolutely s******g it.
The issue for me rests on the methods of restraint, but without bodycams we're not going to find out whether or not they were correct, or safe etc.
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Topic Originator: londonparsfan
Date: Thu 21 Jan 16:56
On the Disclosure Scotland documentary there was footage of the police kneeling on his torso for an extended period of time which you are expressly told not to do.
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Topic Originator: JTH123
Date: Thu 21 Jan 18:30
Agree with Grant 're the weapon.
I was party to a trial a few years back where the accused had got into an argument with others then pulled a concealed hammer and set about them. Scary.
FWIW I totally agree with DA_No1 saying that the family deserve the truth as uncomfortable as it may be. Clearly the whole episode started with him misbehaving so he put himself into the situation but no-one deserves to end up dead because of the way they are restrained.
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Thu 21 Jan 18:58
Why has this `new` evidence been made public via a BBC documentary rather than through the public inquiry which is ongoing? I`m all for transparency but there seems to be a trend towards `leaking` evidence before it`s presented through the proper channels. The same thing seems to be happening with the inquiry into the Scottish government`s handling of the claims made against Alex Salmond. In that case evidence is made public before witnesses have appeared and there have been articles written in the media by MSPs who are part of the panel conducting the inquiry about the possible effects of the findings of that inquiry.
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Topic Originator: JTH123
Date: Thu 21 Jan 19:07
The other thing I don't understand why a case like this should take years to conclude.
Makes sense when you're dealing with the Grenfell fire but not this.
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Topic Originator: da_no_1
Date: Thu 21 Jan 19:28
Quote:
JTH123, Thu 21 Jan 19:07
The other thing I don't understand why a case like this should take years to conclude.
Makes sense when you're dealing with the Grenfell fire but not this.
I'm sure I read the enquiry could take 4 years.......that cannot be right surely?
"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Thu 21 Jan 20:13
I`m sure I read the enquiry could take 4 years.......that cannot be right surely?
Only when its a case against the establishment da
If the police woman had died as a result of the punch it would have been 6 to 9 months
We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend
Date: Thu 21 Jan 20:33
Are the two officers involved still on the sick or have they got early retirement?
It`s bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983
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Topic Originator: londonparsfan
Date: Thu 21 Jan 20:39
Already early retirement after a court case. The police force did actually refuse to let them medicaly retire initially.
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Topic Originator: da_no_1
Date: Thu 21 Jan 20:45
Quote:
Buspasspar, Thu 21 Jan 20:13
I`m sure I read the enquiry could take 4 years.......that cannot be right surely?
Only when its a case against the establishment da
If the police woman had died as a result of the punch it would have been 6 to 9 months
You learn something every day on .net! Cheers
"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Fri 22 Jan 18:08
Quote :-
Topic Originator: da_no_1 like | nolike
Date: Wed 20 Jan 13:26
It was really hard to say Buspasspar, the footage was really grainy & out of focus.
Thanks da ....This has been niggling away at me
Do we not have technology that can enhance cctv footage ? ... or is that only for spy movie`s ?
Also does it benefit the Police officers cause more than Sheku`s to have the cctv grainy and out of focus ? .... Time will tell...... maybe :(
We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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