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 Clapham Common Vigil
Topic Originator: desparado  
Date:   Sun 14 Mar 17:59

Turned a bit nasty last night.

However, I saw some footage of it today and the Duchess of Cambridge was filmed laying a wreath in memory of the poor lady who was murdered and she was not wearing a face mask despite being close to others.

I thought that would be all over the news ?

Now I know it was outside but surely anyone who is a public figure would use common sense and mask up.......

Can you imagine the furore if it had been Nicola Sturgeon ?

No neither can I....WOT !

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 Re: Clapham Common Vigil
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Sun 14 Mar 18:34

It got ugly ... polis heavy handed ... could not cope with defenceless women chanting... arrest your own .... and shame on you where is Priti ?

We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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 Re: Clapham Common Vigil
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Sun 14 Mar 18:56

Cressida Dick strikes again.

This is the woman who ordered the shooting of Jean Charles de Menezez remember - she's got form for heavy handedness against the defense less.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Clapham Common Vigil
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sun 14 Mar 19:18

The question that seems to be being debated is `are all men to blame for violence against women`?

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/sarah-everard-everything-supposed-woman-23705018

Several other articles raising the same issues as that in various media outlets over the last few days.


Post Edited (Sun 14 Mar 19:23)
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 Re: Clapham Common Vigil
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Sun 14 Mar 19:31

I can well understand why these women were moved to mark this tragedy in a respectful and dignified manner, but they were as guilty of flouting lockdown rules as those idiots in George Square last week.

I want to stress that I'm not in any way comparing the two. The Clapham Common women had every good reason to attend while those in George Square were taking the p!ss.

Eta. The heavy handed approach by the police to a peaceful protest is hard to understand. A bit of sensitivity would not have gone amiss.



Not your average Sunday League player.


Post Edited (Sun 14 Mar 20:24)
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 Re: Clapham Common Vigil
Topic Originator: parfection  
Date:   Sun 14 Mar 20:12


As a man who has both a wife and a daughter of course I have sympathy with the cause the ladies in London are promoting. However, whether we agree with the cause they espouse or whether we think it unworthy really isn’t the point. Gatherings on a big scale are currently forbidden - and that’s the end of it. Viruses are spread no less by people gathering in a noble cause than they are by followers of any given football team celebrating en masse. There can be no distinction - that would be neither right nor fair.

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 Re: Clapham Common Vigil
Topic Originator: widtink  
Date:   Sun 14 Mar 21:17

^^^
This


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 Re: Clapham Common Vigil
Topic Originator: arpar  
Date:   Sun 14 Mar 22:14

Just imagine what would have happened in the football supporters had been shot with rubber bullets as some suggested when this is the backlash with just a few people getting handcuffed.
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 Re: Clapham Common Vigil
Topic Originator: twin par  
Date:   Sun 14 Mar 22:30

Agree.Virus,does not respect political or any other boundaries ,just stay in yer hoose!
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 Re: Clapham Common Vigil
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Sun 14 Mar 23:48

....or the polis will beat you up!


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Clapham Common Vigil
Topic Originator: Luxembourg Par  
Date:   Mon 15 Mar 00:14

....or the polis will beat you up!...

IF you`re a bunch of women.

But if you`re a bunch of drunken neanderthals, the polis crap out, and will let you all march to central area and party away...

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 Re: Clapham Common Vigil
Topic Originator: parfection  
Date:   Mon 15 Mar 00:51

The following has no bearing on the paramount importance of treating all large gatherings in the UK in the same way, but it is interesting to note how our close neighbours in Western Europe approach the issue.

In the Netherlands, a lockdown protest exceeding an agreed maximum number was met on Sunday with mounted police, riot police with shields and batons, police dogs and water cannon. In addition, a warning shot was fired into the air. Makes the police approach here seem almost welcoming !

I spent time in Switzerland many years ago and can clearly remember batons and tear gas being used against students protesting about a perceived lack of facilities for youth culture in Zürich. I witnessed it first hand, and it was extremely intimidating and scary.

Neither of these countries are anything like police states, quite the opposite in fact, yet the rule of law is enforced with an iron hand - at least compared to the UK.

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 Re: Clapham Common Vigil
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Mon 15 Mar 08:28

Was it not an unlawful assembly ?
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 Re: Clapham Common Vigil
Topic Originator: Rastapari  
Date:   Mon 15 Mar 13:20

Quote:

parfection, Sun 14 Mar 20:12

As a man who has both a wife and a daughter of course I have sympathy with the cause the ladies in London are promoting. However, whether we agree with the cause they espouse or whether we think it unworthy really isn’t the point. Gatherings on a big scale are currently forbidden - and that’s the end of it. Viruses are spread no less by people gathering in a noble cause than they are by followers of any given football team celebrating en masse. There can be no distinction - that would be neither right nor fair.


Surely the point is that football fans and things like BLM got a free pass?

Carole Baskin fed Rasta to a tiger.
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 Re: Clapham Common Vigil
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Mon 15 Mar 13:55

You get a free pass if you are likely to defend yourself against police intimidation.

As normally happens under a Tory government we are in a survival of the fittest scenario: you get to protest if you are in a position to threaten violence, otherwise you get the baton.

And today parliament is voting on a law which gives the police even more powers against peaceful protest because Cressida asked nicely.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Clapham Common Vigil
Topic Originator: Parplod  
Date:   Mon 15 Mar 14:01

Great sympathy must go to Sarah Everard’s family. They are having to cope with the horrific murder of their loved one - a murder aggravated by the fact that the alleged perpetrator is a serving police officer. In addition now they have to witness the media onslaught following the weekends events linked to Sarah’s name. Sadly as is always the case nowadays the public view is polarised - those who say the protestors brought it on themselves and those who blame the police.
Rastapari is correct when he says that there has been a precedent set when little, if any action, has been taken against BLM or football fans.
Following the awful murder of George Floyd at the hands of police officers and the initial outcry that followed, there was a chance to make a difference and reform the dysfunctional policing system in the US which has more than 2000 policing bodies. But it was hijacked by extremists and polarised public opinion. The result being that nothing has changed.
Interesting to see social media beginning to highlight that the weekend event at Clapham Common was attended by a vast majority of individuals wishing to show solidarity but infiltrated by a small number of the usual woke attention seekers who stage managed arrests. As in America the real reason behind the vigil is now taking a back seat.

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 Re: Clapham Common Vigil
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Mon 15 Mar 14:06

the usual woke attention seekers who stage managed arrests.

Firs time I`ve heard the Met referred to as "woke attention seekers" but fair play, it`s fairly observant to point out that police are nearly always the escalating factor in these situations


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Clapham Common Vigil
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Mon 15 Mar 14:21

I certainly think calls for a curfew on men after 6pm to be somewhat extreme.

We all hate poverty, war, and injustice.
Unlike the rest of you squares.
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 Re: Clapham Common Vigil
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Mon 15 Mar 14:28

I haven`t heard about any serious calls for that.

However, after decades of being told what to wear, where to go, when to go there and how to behave once they are there a number of women may well have become peed of with things given that it`s not them who are doing all the raping, battering and murdering.

The best way to prevent this stuff is to educate men about the impact it has on women.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Clapham Common Vigil
Topic Originator: parfection  
Date:   Mon 15 Mar 14:42

“Surely the point is that football fans and things like BLM got a free pass?”

What evidence is there that the Rangers fans were less harshly treated? I’m not saying where the truth lies - I honestly don’t know, but the bare statistics seem to say 28 arrests were made in Glasgow and 4 arrests in London. All I want to say is that I believe in having a common approach. I’m no Rangers fan, far from it, and I have great sympathy for women having the right to walk around wholly unmolested, but both groups have to be treated equally.

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 Re: Clapham Common Vigil
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Mon 15 Mar 14:58

Why should they be treated equally?


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Clapham Common Vigil
Topic Originator: Rastapari  
Date:   Mon 15 Mar 15:01

Quote:

Wotsit, Mon 15 Mar 14:06

the usual woke attention seekers who stage managed arrests.

Firs time I`ve heard the Met referred to as "woke attention seekers" but fair play, it`s fairly observant to point out that police are nearly always the escalating factor in these situations


He could be referring to pictures doing the rounds suggesting the red haired woman shown held down police is the same "crisis actor" who was paraded round the streets with a bandage round her head after a London underground explosion...
I don't know, the country is crazy right now.

Carole Baskin fed Rasta to a tiger.
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 Re: Clapham Common Vigil
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Mon 15 Mar 15:51

Quote:

parfection, Mon 15 Mar 14:42

“Surely the point is that football fans and things like BLM got a free pass?”

What evidence is there that the Rangers fans were less harshly treated? I’m not saying where the truth lies - I honestly don’t know, but the bare statistics seem to say 28 arrests were made in Glasgow and 4 arrests in London. All I want to say is that I believe in having a common approach. I’m no Rangers fan, far from it, and I have great sympathy for women having the right to walk around wholly unmolested, but both groups have to be treated equally.


I think it's fair to say that Police Scotland adopted a low key approach to both weekend celebrations outside Ibrox and even escorted the Sunday crowd to George Square, where they were allowed to continue their celebrations until around 10 pm. There were even reports of officers posing for selfies with fans. Tam Cowan made me lol when he said on RS, "There were 500 police officers in George Square - and 200 of them were on duty."

All joking aside, the low key approach by PS was probably a good call - had they tried to move them on forcefully, we might have seen a full scale riot. It would have been easier to stop the crowds forming by closing off all roads to the stadium before the game and turning the fans away as they arrived.

I would argue that a tolerant approach at Clapham Common would have been more dignified and respectful. Were the officers on duty instructed to be tolerant or to break up the gathering with force if necessary? I don't think you can point to the number of arrests in each case and use that as a barometer of how tough the Police approach was. Going by the TV pics, far more than 28 louts should have been arrested.

Can we honestly say that about those gathering to remember that poor girl? Were they creating a disturbance or a threat to public order?



Not your average Sunday League player.


Post Edited (Mon 15 Mar 15:52)
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 Re: Clapham Common Vigil
Topic Originator: parfection  
Date:   Mon 15 Mar 15:59

“Why should they be treated equally?”

My own view is that the law has to apply to all citizens equally. Could a magistrate slap harsher penalties on the Rangers fans because he happens to be a Celtic fan? Could a different magistrate impose more draconian punishments on women because he happens to be a raging misogynist?

It is, to me, self evident that this would be intolerable. The imposition of legal restrictions and punishments has to be impartial.

In the case of the Clapham ladies and the Glasgow football fans, neither would, in normal times, be breaking any laws by gathering in a large group. They’d be wholly entitled to do so. Problem is, we’re not living in normal times, and different rules pertain. Both groups broke those rules, despite clear warning, and can expect no favourable treatment in consequence.

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 Re: Clapham Common Vigil
Topic Originator: Jbob  
Date:   Mon 15 Mar 16:17

The vigil should not have been happening at this time. End of.

Of course we all sympathise but the above us true.

Bobs of the world unite
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 Re: Clapham Common Vigil
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Mon 15 Mar 16:56

So let`s take the view that circumstances are not relevant and apply it generally then parfection.

Should a single dad who steals a chicken to feed his family be treated the same as a rich kid who steals a chicken for a thrill?

Should a wife who kills her abusive husband out of desperation be treated the same as a cold blooded murderer?

Should an act of violence which is in self-defence be treated the same as an act of violence which is a person letting off steam?


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Clapham Common Vigil
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Mon 15 Mar 17:41

The question that`s being posed is, away from the rights and wrongs of the police response, is there a problem with masculinity and men in this country. There might be but if there is it is predominantly men who are paying the price for it as far more men are murdered and violently assaulted on the streets than women.

We all hate poverty, war, and injustice.
Unlike the rest of you squares.
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 Re: Clapham Common Vigil
Topic Originator: Milos Drizzle  
Date:   Mon 15 Mar 17:50

"The best way to prevent this stuff is to educate men about the impact it has on women."

Me, all my male friends, and my male role models, are aware of the impact of this on women. I wouldn't dream of wolf-whistling at women or other such derogatory behaviour. I think if this movement is to have any real traction in society it needs to stop demonising the vast, vast majority of men that are decent to women.

This is my signature

Post Edited (Mon 15 Mar 17:51)
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 Re: Clapham Common Vigil
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Mon 15 Mar 19:25

The MET not really doing well just now ..... If true


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-56409023

We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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 Re: Clapham Common Vigil
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Mon 15 Mar 19:34

Toxic masculinity is definitely harmful to men as well as to women, there`s no doubt about that, which is why it is useful when men who are not toxic call out those who are.

Men have to protect themselves from it and the consequences of it.

It has to be said though that, more often than not, men have better physiological tools to deal with violence by other men. I`m not exactly a great fighter but I reckon I could overpower the vast majority of women if I wanted. That creates a far different psychology around it.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Clapham Common Vigil
Topic Originator: Milos Drizzle  
Date:   Mon 15 Mar 20:04

Totally agree with that Wotsit. I`d even agree that I could probably still do with more insight and understanding as the extent and nature of what is being talked about here (I`m sure there must be in-depth studies) - maybe I am underestimating the number of knuckledraggers out there, or maybe even I am harbouring some prejudices of my own I`m not quite aware of. But surely the best way to get this going is to not immediately alienate your target audience, the (vast?) majority of whom are totally behind the cause.

This is my signature
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 Re: Clapham Common Vigil
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Mon 15 Mar 20:41

And again if true :(


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-56409029

We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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 Re: Clapham Common Vigil
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Tue 16 Mar 09:00

Quote:

Buspasspar, Mon 15 Mar 19:25

The MET not really doing well just now ..... If true


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-56409023


I believe there was an article in the Times recently about calls from within the corridors of power for an official enquiry into the Met’s handling of Operation Midland and associated enquiries.

Then there was the shambles of their role in the Cliff Richard house search.

Now we have this incident at Clapham - Cressida Dick doesn’t have her troubles to seek.
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 Re: Clapham Common Vigil
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Tue 16 Mar 09:01

They're okay at guarding statues BPP!🤔🤬🤬🤬
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 Re: Clapham Common Vigil
Topic Originator: Rastapari  
Date:   Tue 16 Mar 13:03

The answer being undercover cops in nightclubs and bars apparently.....given it was a policeman who killed the lass who is this supposed to make feel protected?

Carole Baskin fed Rasta to a tiger.
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 Re: Clapham Common Vigil
Topic Originator: Jbob  
Date:   Tue 16 Mar 13:11

So does that one policeman mean that they are all sexual predators. Would you rather have plumbers or long distance lorry drivers,

Bobs of the world unite
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 Re: Clapham Common Vigil
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Tue 16 Mar 15:28

"So does that one policeman mean that they are all sexual predators."

We`ve had killer doctors and nurses.

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 Re: Clapham Common Vigil
Topic Originator: da_no_1  
Date:   Tue 16 Mar 23:36

Quote:

Rastapari, Tue 16 Mar 13:03

The answer being undercover cops in nightclubs and bars apparently.....given it was a policeman who killed the lass who is this supposed to make feel protected?


You're unbelievable.

"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
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 Re: Clapham Common Vigil
Topic Originator: Rastapari  
Date:   Wed 17 Mar 07:50

Quote:

da_no_1, Tue 16 Mar 23:36

Quote:

Rastapari, Tue 16 Mar 13:03

The answer being undercover cops in nightclubs and bars apparently.....given it was a policeman who killed the lass who is this supposed to make feel protected?


You're unbelievable.


Why, expand?

Carole Baskin fed Rasta to a tiger.
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 Re: Clapham Common Vigil
Topic Originator: da_no_1  
Date:   Wed 17 Mar 13:16

Quote:

Rastapari, Wed 17 Mar 07:50

Quote:

da_no_1, Tue 16 Mar 23:36

Quote:

Rastapari, Tue 16 Mar 13:03

The answer being undercover cops in nightclubs and bars apparently.....given it was a policeman who killed the lass who is this supposed to make feel protected?


You're unbelievable.


Why, expand?


The horrendous actions of one member of any organisation doesn't necessarily mean the others from the same organisation can't do something to prevent it from happening again.

"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
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 Re: Clapham Common Vigil
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Wed 17 Mar 13:52

The police in this country has a habit of closing ranks and protecting those who cause the public harm to the extent that people from all sorts of walks of life have completely lost trust in them as an institution.

If you hear about and see the police causing more harm than good to the people in your community, your family and your friends then the last people you want to hear about "protecting" you are the police.

This will not change until the police are hold themselves accountable.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Clapham Common Vigil
Topic Originator: Andrew283  
Date:   Wed 17 Mar 14:00

[Post Deleted] - Utter Bollocks
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 Re: Clapham Common Vigil
Topic Originator: da_no_1  
Date:   Wed 17 Mar 14:41

Quote:

Andrew283, Wed 17 Mar 14:00

Edited to remove quote of post which has rightly been removed.
Admin

What a way to live your life

"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
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 Re: Clapham Common Vigil
Topic Originator: widtink  
Date:   Wed 17 Mar 14:53

Apologies da_no_1... Just noticed that you're still on a yellow.
My bad... Will be removed ASAP.


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 Re: Clapham Common Vigil
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Wed 17 Mar 16:55

Some people [I]have[/I] to assume that ACAB though, otherwise they wouldn't be able to lead any sort of life free from harassment.

And that's not "utter bollox" either: I know people personally for whom that is true.

What might be "utter bollox" is the notion that each individual officer is corrupt or somehow at it. However the ones who know about corrupt colleagues and either do nothing or actively cover it up are the ones who need to sort themselves, and their failing "service" out.

The service as a whole is not fit for purpose and when parts of the service actively try to hide or deny these failings then they are not to be trusted.

Therefore, I agree with Andrew - folk often do have to assume that ACAB because that's the evolutionary advantageous position for certain people to take.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Clapham Common Vigil
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Wed 17 Mar 22:18

What seems missed amongst many of these protestors is that tarring all men with the same brush does not help. They should be calling on the good men to call out friends, family, random creeps in pubs etc. who act inappropriately to women.

Although someone saying "she'd get it" may just be nonsense lad chat, there's always a risk that someone is very serious.

The problem with these issues is the potential for knee-jerk reactions. Finger pointing at computer games, TV shows and naughty websites for how they portray women. 99% of people understand that these forms of media are not accurate representations of reality. The issue is the 1% and they should be called out if taking things too far.
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 Re: Clapham Common Vigil
Topic Originator: Rastapari  
Date:   Thu 18 Mar 07:35

Quote:

da_no_1, Wed 17 Mar 13:16

Quote:

Rastapari, Wed 17 Mar 07:50

Quote:

da_no_1, Tue 16 Mar 23:36

Quote:

Rastapari, Tue 16 Mar 13:03

The answer being undercover cops in nightclubs and bars apparently.....given it was a policeman who killed the lass who is this supposed to make feel protected?


You're unbelievable.


Why, expand?


The horrendous actions of one member of any organisation doesn't necessarily mean the others from the same organisation can't do something to prevent it from happening again.


Didn't say they couldn't but it's full fat brexit Britain when the answer to a policeman murdering someone is more police powers.

Carole Baskin fed Rasta to a tiger.
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 Re: Clapham Common Vigil
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Thu 18 Mar 08:53

Quote:

Rastapari, Thu 18 Mar 07:35

Quote:

da_no_1, Wed 17 Mar 13:16

Quote:

Rastapari, Wed 17 Mar 07:50

Quote:

da_no_1, Tue 16 Mar 23:36

Quote:

Rastapari, Tue 16 Mar 13:03

The answer being undercover cops in nightclubs and bars apparently.....given it was a policeman who killed the lass who is this supposed to make feel protected?


You're unbelievable.


Why, expand?


The horrendous actions of one member of any organisation doesn't necessarily mean the others from the same organisation can't do something to prevent it from happening again.


Didn't say they couldn't but it's full fat brexit Britain when the answer to a policeman murdering someone is more police powers.


Which “more police powers” are you referring to ?
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 Re: Clapham Common Vigil
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Thu 18 Mar 08:56

The ones Westminster voted through the other day presumably vee?


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Clapham Common Vigil
Topic Originator: da_no_1  
Date:   Thu 18 Mar 09:04

I'm really confused.

We want our streets to be safer but without increasing the power of the people best placed to make them safer.

"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
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 Re: Clapham Common Vigil
Topic Originator: Jbob  
Date:   Thu 18 Mar 09:06

Let`s not turn this thread into another let`s look at rasta

Bobs of the world unite
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 Re: Clapham Common Vigil
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Thu 18 Mar 11:49

"The ones Westminster voted through the other day presumably vee?"

I was making that assumption, however I`m struggling with the relevance and linkage with that and a rogue policeman murdering that poor girl.

Also, the legislation has been in the pipeline for sometime.

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 Re: Clapham Common Vigil
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Sun 21 Mar 12:53

Yesterday's anti lockdown "protests" being compared to the "vigil" on Clapham Common, facemasks and all!😷😷😷
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 Re: Clapham Common Vigil
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Mon 22 Mar 09:14

So Bristol has rioted with a fair amount of violence against Patel's anti protest Bill.

Don't think that this will be the last one, rumblings in Liverpool already with the Tories threatening to take over council due to corruption!🤔

Seemingly they haven't been doing it properly!🤣🤣🤣
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