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Topic Originator: Diolch
Date: Wed 29 Sep 18:19
I am not the greatest believer of the death penalty, but the monster responsible for her death makes the argument against it very weak!!
That poor, poor young woman, and my heart breaks for her family.
Some people are just pure evil.
"Everyday I wake up and thank the Lord I'm Welsh......"
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Topic Originator: Big T Par
Date: Wed 29 Sep 18:28
Absolutely horrific reading. What an evil basturt
Post Edited (Wed 29 Sep 18:29)
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Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend
Date: Wed 29 Sep 18:49
Death penalty would be appropriate
It`s bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Wed 29 Sep 18:57
The death penalty is difficult when there's even the slightest hint of the wrong person being accused, but this guy is clearly guilty as sin. I'm sure what her family will want to know is the "why?". Why on Earth would anyone go out an do this? What was going through his mind? Why her?
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Topic Originator: Parnott
Date: Wed 29 Sep 20:23
Why her?
She got unlucky. Wrong place at the wrong time. He was caught on CCTV drving around in loops looking for lone females.
Horrific.
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Topic Originator: ipswichpar
Date: Wed 29 Sep 20:54
Poor poor lady. Beyond any understanding.
This society really does need to start to look at the treatment of women.
I hope this bloke has a painful and misery filled life.
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Topic Originator: parsmad68
Date: Wed 29 Sep 21:09
Premeditated and many questions I need answered. Handcuffs- where did he get them from?
Police records- how is an individual like this not picked up by the system when in a position of trust?
Open question- is this the first?
What a truly evil individual.
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Topic Originator: CAPar
Date: Thu 30 Sep 06:44
He had handcuffs because he was a serving police officer.
It was bad enough to begin with but for those to have been the circumstances of her murder makes it even worse. Now women aren't even safe in public from men in positions of trust.
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Topic Originator: red-star-par
Date: Thu 30 Sep 10:21
Quote:
CAPar, Thu 30 Sep 06:44
He had handcuffs because he was a serving police officer.
It was bad enough to begin with but for those to have been the circumstances of her murder makes it even worse. Now women aren't even safe in public from men in positions of trust.
Have the police ever been trustworthy? I know I don't trust them
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Topic Originator: MDCCCLXXXV
Date: Thu 30 Sep 11:05
Put the bastard in prison and let everyone know he was a policeman and exactly what he done. Not quite the death penalty but as good as.
Animal
 East End Park is a symbol of all that is DAFC.
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Topic Originator: DA-go Par Adonis
Date: Thu 30 Sep 11:58
I certainly don't think he'll last too long on there - one way or another.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I love it when we go sell Kevin Nisbet,
He's gonna pay for everyone this season.
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Topic Originator: Rastapari
Date: Thu 30 Sep 12:12
What annoys me is that the language used is always aimed at all men....nah, sorry, not all men are power abusing utter pigs like this, Police failings should be under scrutiny here not "all men" imo.
Carole Baskin fed Rasta to a tiger.
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Thu 30 Sep 12:55
Quote:
Rastapari, Thu 30 Sep 12:12
What annoys me is that the language used is always aimed at all men....nah, sorry, not all men are power abusing utter pigs like this, Police failings should be under scrutiny here not "all men" imo.
Agree on this. I find it quite odd that it's acceptable to make claims like this too. Years ago there was a domestic abuse campaign where organisations put stickers on the mirrors in the gents toilets reading something like "are you looking at an abuser?". I was flabbergasted. There was no such campaign in the women's toilets so the suggestion was that only men can be abusers. Yes, far more likely that a man will be the abuser but it's something like a 25/75 split on abuse and that figure doesn't take into account that men are far less likely to report being abused by their partner.
Call him what he is - a murderer, a pervert, a rapist, an abuser, scum etc. His gender is irrelevant.
We disappointingly see this with religion too. Someone becomes a "Muslim man" rather than just "man". This is even used for day to day things like "Muslim comedian". Why is the religion relevant? We wouldn't see "Christian comedian John Smith performed his best set yet."
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Topic Originator: kechal7
Date: Thu 30 Sep 13:44
Ever heard of many woman abducting, raping & killing a man? Take the offensive vision specs off and look at the bigger picture
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Thu 30 Sep 14:13
It's not about being offended, it's about being mislead by the media. The assumption is very much that all men are predators. This is simply untrue. Whilst too many men are predators (and I include creeps who wolf-whistle at women), the majority of men are not. That said, I'm sure many women would be scared if I was walking behind them late at night due to an unconscious prejudice due to previous experiences.
Where I'm disappointed at my own gender is where the good ones don't call out the poor behaviour of others. To me it makes you complicit to some extent of you don't challenge the behaviours of others. Admittedly, there will be times you can't intervene, but you should when you can.
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Topic Originator: kechal7
Date: Thu 30 Sep 14:26
I think you need to flip the coin on your perception. The media aren`t trying to promote that all men are predators. What they are doing however is pointing out that all the predators are men, especially in these sort of circumstances. The male resistance to this doesn`t help resolve the situation.
I absolutely agree with your view on condemnation, although it is improving slowly. There is a very fine line between banter and abuse, which sometimes shortens dependent on the person at the receiving end
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Topic Originator: kechal7
Date: Thu 30 Sep 14:29
And I`m not sure finding two examples from South Africa and Georgia are quite in line with the argument in the UK
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Topic Originator: MDCCCLXXXV
Date: Thu 30 Sep 14:56
K7 I must have read you post wrong, did it say
Have you ever heard of many woman abducting, raping and killing a man in the UK?
East End Park is a symbol of all that is DAFC.
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Topic Originator: kechal7
Date: Thu 30 Sep 14:59
I`m pretty sure this whole topic is relating to a case in the UK and the following media coverage, also in the UK. No?
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Topic Originator: Stanza
Date: Thu 30 Sep 15:03
Any suggestion that there is equivalence between men and women when it comes to violent crime is simply wrong-headed, and it's disappointing to read anything that suggests this.
A UN study in 2000 reported that 96% of homicides worldwide are committed by males. Admittedly, the majority of the victims were also males (76%) but that leaves 24% who were female, and overwhelmingly they were killed by males.
The chance of a female being assaulted, raped or murdered by a male (often her partner) is far, far higher than the chance of a male being assaulted, raped or murdered by a female.
Of course most men do not go around committing assaults, rapes or murders. But earlier this year a YouGov survey reported that 71% of women said they had experienced sexual harassment in a public space (for young women aged 18-24 the figure was 86%). Even if you think the figures are inflated, they explain why women are right to be concerned about men's behaviour.
_________________
 Support Dunfermline Athletic Disabled Supporters` Club (DADSC) when you shop online with one of 8000 firms: https://www.easyfundraising.org.uk/causes/dadsc[
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Topic Originator: TAFKA_Super_Petrie
Date: Thu 30 Sep 16:30
He was Royal / VIP protection detail so he would have been vetted to pretty much the highest level you can get, even above MV & SC clearence, and revaluated every 2 years at the very least with mental health checks potentially even more frequently than that.
If he had anything on him - even as trivial as a wee bit of debt on a store card - it would flag up.
He's just a horrible, horrible bastard who has abused a position of trust in the worst possible way but i don't think he 'slipped through the net' for lack of a better term in regards to nobody picking up on him being a wrong' un.
---------------------------------------------------------------
"People always talk about Ronaldinho and magic, but I didn't see him today. I saw Henrik Larsson; that's where the magic was."
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Thu 30 Sep 16:31
These statistics confirm what most of us have always known: that most violence is committed by (young) men and most victims are also (young) men.
The Sarah Everard murder became a massive news story due to her mysterious disappearance, later confirmed as kidnap, and eventual discovery her killer was a policeman. She was also, in newspaper terms, a perfect symbol of an innocent victim so her face became familiar to all of us. The same can`t be said of the almost daily victims of knife crime, especially in the London area. They live, they die as teenagers, and we rarely know their name or their face.
sammer
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Thu 30 Sep 16:33
Yes I agree that women should be concerned about men`s behaviour Stanza but also men should be worried about men`s behaviour. Hands up I haven`t looked for the figures yet but I`m going to go out on a limb and say more men are the victims of assault and murder than women.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: Stanza
Date: Thu 30 Sep 16:39
Quote:
TAFKA_Super_Petrie, Thu 30 Sep 16:30
He was Royal / VIP protection detail so he would have been vetted to pretty much the highest level you can get, even above MV & SC clearence, and revaluated every 2 years at the very least with mental health checks potentially even more frequently than that.
If he had anything on him - even as trivial as a wee bit of debt on a store card - it would flag up.
He's just a horrible, horrible bastard who has abused a position of trust in the worst possible way but i don't think he 'slipped through the net' for lack of a better term in regards to nobody picking up on him being a wrong' un.
Perhaps nothing will come of it, but the Independent Office for Police Conduct is investigating Kent Police's handling of a flashing incident in 2015, as well as the Met's handling of 2 indecent exposure incidents in February, all linked to Couzens.
_________________
Support Dunfermline Athletic Disabled Supporters` Club (DADSC) when you shop online with one of 8000 firms: https://www.easyfundraising.org.uk/causes/dadsc[
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Topic Originator: TAFKA_Super_Petrie
Date: Thu 30 Sep 16:44
Was not aware of that! Thought he would be suspended pending investigation if anything like that occurred, usually a standard process.
---------------------------------------------------------------
"People always talk about Ronaldinho and magic, but I didn't see him today. I saw Henrik Larsson; that's where the magic was."
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Topic Originator: Rusty Shackleford
Date: Thu 30 Sep 20:43
A thread about a poor young woman being murdered turns into a thread with men debating with other men about violence statistics. Time for men to shut up and open their ears to the women in their lives.
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Fri 1 Oct 01:39
I’m not sure how you would know what the ‘women in our lives’ are saying; it might not be what you think.
There were placards and statements made last week in relation to the murder of another woman which I would pay very little heed to. One talked of an ‘epidemic’ of violence against women: if the word is accurate then the epidemic has been running all of my lifetime since the number of women killed each year remains fairly constant and remains far below that of the number of men killed.
Another placard called for ‘an end to male violence.’ Good news for the female murderers who presumably are to be given free reign.
One woman suggested that men should be in curfew off the streets after such a murder. Good news again for female aggressors who could bully their fellow gender with impunity, especially since this proposed curfew would also see male police officers confined to their homes. My granddaughter could be getting a hammering from some girl gang and I am to sit powerless in my home.
I have no intention of listening to those who hijack murder to promote their own poisoned agenda, an agenda which for many years has had as its slogan: ‘All men are rapists.’
sammer
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Topic Originator: DBP
Date: Fri 1 Oct 06:03
Quote:
Rusty Shackleford, Thu 30 Sep 20:43
A thread about a poor young woman being murdered turns into a thread with men debating with other men about violence statistics. Time for men to shut up and open their ears to the women in their lives.
This, 100% this
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Fri 1 Oct 07:56
Quote:
Rusty Shackleford, Thu 30 Sep 20:43
A thread about a poor young woman being murdered turns into a thread with men debating with other men about violence statistics. Time for men to shut up and open their ears to the women in their lives.
That's exactly what men ARE doing but there is a clear issue when a minority of the people men are attempting to support are turning round and suggesting ALL men are rapists, murderers, predators etc. This doesn't help in the slightest.
100% we need intervention by the good men to the bad men. Women (or anyone!) should not feel unsafe walking in the dark or even just down the street. Call it out where it's safe to do so.
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Topic Originator: Rusty Shackleford
Date: Fri 1 Oct 08:25
Do you genuinely believe there are people out there who think that all men are rapists? And if so, do you genuinely believe that viewpoint will gain any sort of traction?
It's important to ignore extremist nonsense on both sides and focus on what's actually true insomuch as (a) most violence is perpetrated by men and (b) most women face or have faced sexual harassment.
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Topic Originator: P
Date: Fri 1 Oct 08:33
Quote:
Rusty Shackleford, Fri 01 Oct 08:25
Do you genuinely believe there are people out there who think that all men are rapists? And if so, do you genuinely believe that viewpoint will gain any sort of traction?
It's important to ignore extremist nonsense on both sides and focus on what's actually true insomuch as (a) most violence is perpetrated by men and (b) most women face or have faced sexual harassment.
Missed part (3) which is most women will have been in fear when walking alone in remote places or at night. I know several women who have say they routinely walk with house keys between their fingers in case they have to protect themselves. Much of that may be perceived fear rather than an actual threat but the fact that people feel like that says much is wrong and should be the focus.
I doubt many women think all men are rapists but the vast majority will at some point have felt fear because they have been in a situation where they have thought any unknown man ‘could’ be a rapist
Post Edited (Fri 01 Oct 08:34)
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Fri 1 Oct 08:51
Quote:
Rusty Shackleford, Fri 1 Oct 08:25
Do you genuinely believe there are people out there who think that all men are rapists? And if so, do you genuinely believe that viewpoint will gain any sort of traction?
Yes and yes. Without sounding like someone else on here - Google is your friend.
It's a minority, but they do unfortunately exist and that narrative comes across in the media too.
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Topic Originator: DBP
Date: Fri 1 Oct 08:51
exactly P - because by default they are vulnerable...
said on another thread the other week that i was raging because my daughter has been leered at and had comments shouted at her walking home from town and one car slowed up a bit and she felt very scared and vulnerable and now doesn`t feel safe walking home from work when it`s dark.
my wife has also told me loads of stories from when she was a teenager of bosses and co-workers being a bit `handsy`, boys from college offering to give her more drunk pals a `lift` home after a night out, etc
i`m lucky, i feel safe when i walk home even if a bit drunk...
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Fri 1 Oct 09:02
Now being suggested this beast was in a WhatsApp group including other Met officers sharing vile comments. I hope those "men" are taking a hard look in the mirror.
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Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend
Date: Fri 1 Oct 09:04
I`m very aware when walking and catching up to a female, that my innocent actions could alarm them, so I try to cross the road or speed up to get past them quickly.
a sad state of affairs
It`s bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983
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Topic Originator: buffy
Date: Fri 1 Oct 09:31
It’s very sad to read what Sarah Everard went through; and how frightened she would have been. I feel for her family ~ and every family which has to deal with losing loved ones in this way.
Imo education is as important as advising what you should do if you find yourself in a fearful situation, and violence should never occur under any circumstances. Teach respect and decency.
”Buffy’s Buns are the finest in Fife”, J. Spence 2019”
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Topic Originator: EastEndBoy
Date: Fri 1 Oct 10:42
Quote:
Rusty Shackleford, Thu 30 Sep 20:43
A thread about a poor young woman being murdered turns into a thread with men debating with other men about violence statistics. Time for men to shut up and open their ears to the women in their lives.
This and only this.
Any narrative that paints 'all men' as rapists or predators is of course completely wrong, but guess what gents? It's not about us.
...ken?
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Fri 1 Oct 10:56
Definitely not about us, but the point is that it doesn't help to have idiots saying things like this as all it does it stoke up the hatred some men seem to have.
The focus should be on education and encouragement to call out these behaviours before they turn into events like we're seeing relayed on the news.
It's not about saying "As a man you are a predator" it's about saying "As a man you may be perceived as a predator...and here's what you can do to stop that.".
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Topic Originator: EastEndBoy
Date: Fri 1 Oct 10:57
Quote:
DBP, Fri 1 Oct 08:51
said on another thread the other week that i was raging because my daughter has been leered at and had comments shouted at her walking home from town and one car slowed up a bit and she felt very scared and vulnerable and now doesn`t feel safe walking home from work when it`s dark.
I remember reading the thread and being seriously p****d off.
It's not just about the Sarah Everard end of the scale. It's also about the routine, low level, often subtle miogynistic abuse women receive on a daily basis. Maybe because of what they're wearing. Or because they're on their own. Or because some creep thinks he has a right to say whatever he wants to a woman without a single thought to how that might make her feel.
When my daughter grows up I want her to feel safe and that process starts with discussions like this. Instead of peddling the ridiculous 'it's not all men' line, ask yourself if there's anything you could do better. Maybe there's not, and you've never done a single thing ever that has made a woman feel even a tiny bit uncomfortable. Great.
But at least try to appreciate that there are a lot of men around - most likely a few that you know - who can't honestly say the same.
...ken?
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Topic Originator: evo!
Date: Fri 1 Oct 12:08
It`s alarming reading reports today now of all the mesogenic and sexist WhatsApp chats going between Couzins and other officers. While it doesn`t mean other officers will commit murder, it erodes confidence more in officers, specifically male.
And yes it is a minority. But if one person killed my daughter, the fact it was a minority of a 1 who did it, would not comfort me as it wont the Everards or any other families with similar experiences. Sadly there is no easy answer for the police to this one, i feel for the good officers who do good work and do protect the vulnerable or which i`m sure there are loads.
And yes there are women who do nasty unspeakable things too, not the same thing but we all remember Roxanne from Big Brother. Does women no favours in feeling they can approach police as they may not be believed because of actions like hers. Nevertheless, the name of the police is damaged at the moment and I can only hope it wont be long before women (or men) feel safe with good reason going forward. I have big doubts though
BEAST!
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Topic Originator: parsmad68
Date: Fri 1 Oct 12:17
Quote:
Raymie the Legend, Fri 01 Oct 09:04
I`m very aware when walking and catching up to a female, that my innocent actions could alarm them, so I try to cross the road or speed up to get past them quickly.
a sad state of affairs
Very interesting. I also do this. Either when a lady is walking towards or away from me. I do it out of habit but don’t remember when I started this.
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Topic Originator: Sarah
Date: Fri 1 Oct 12:41
It may not be all men, but it is pretty close to all women.
From my experience, almost every woman will have a story to tell of an experience of being flashed at, or touched or rubbed against, or followed/talked to in a way that made her feel uncomfortable, or having something unacceptable shouted at them. And in almost all cases, it will be by a man.
In many ways, this has been normalised. We bring up our daughters to expect it, and give them advice on how to deal with it when it happens. Sadly, not if it happens, but when it happens.
So when that sort of behaviour is normalised, it is no wonder (and not new) that extreme versions occur.
I don`t pretend to know the answers, but there must be something wrong deep in our society/culture that this sort of behaviour still occurs on a regular basis. How are we bringing up our boys? What sort of an example do we set them, consciously or unconsciously?
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Fri 1 Oct 12:55
Does anyone know anything about the selection procedures in place for applicants to join the police? Are they subject to some sort of personality testing to make sure they are suitable candidates and are they regularly re-assessed for unsuitable personality traits? I`m not sure how reliable such testing would be though.
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Topic Originator: Grant
Date: Fri 1 Oct 13:51
Quote:
buffy, Fri 1 Oct 09:31
It’s very sad to read what Sarah Everard went through; and how frightened she would have been. I feel for her family ~ and every family which has to deal with losing loved ones in this way.
Imo education is as important as advising what you should do if you find yourself in a fearful situation, and violence should never occur under any circumstances. Teach respect and decency.
The statements from her family are absolutely heartbreaking.
I have absolutely no idea on the solution to this, the amount of precautions women will feel they need to take when simply going out for a walk by themself is staggering, and by all accounts Sarah Everard had done them, she was wearing bright clothing, had texted her friends and was on the phone, all for someone in a position of power to do that. Simply awful
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Fri 1 Oct 14:29
The issue of violence against women is a blight on society but I don’t believe emotive language will be of much help; the bare facts of the Sarah Everard case speak horrifically enough for themselves. Neither will stigmatising men do much good since most of us are husbands and have daughters, so we naturally feel offended at the suggestion we are in some vague way part of the problem.
However I’m not sure how we can be part of the solution. We can support ‘increased police patrols’ but we might ask why there were never enough in the first place. And would it benefit much to redeploy street patrols away from areas with high knife crime into areas where women might be vulnerable when walking? As noted above, we probably already take care not to get too close to a lone woman walking at night lest we make her uneasy. We would surely intervene if we saw a woman being harassed.
Some say the problem is cultural but that’s not much help either. I was brought up to open doors and offer a seat on transport to women but that fell out of fashion for being condescending and treating women as the weaker sex. (Although I notice when I continue to do this women don’t seem particularly offended.) The objectification of women as sex objects is cited as an issue, but again the message is confusing. There is no shortage of women willingly using their sex appeal in the entertainment world and presumably no shortage of men prepared to look at them. Some spokespersons for the feminist cause label this ‘exploitation’ whilst others hail it as ‘empowerment;’ take your pick.
Short of a Taliban type society, where men and women are segregated in the name of safety, I am not sure what steps could be taken to make the situation better
sammer
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Fri 1 Oct 14:53
``Does anyone know anything about the selection procedures in place for applicants to join the police?``
In the case of Couzens I think an I.Q. test would have been helpful. As a working policeman he would be more aware than most of how everyday life leaves a footprint in terms of CCTV, mobile phones and dashcams. Yet he mounted the pavement in his hired car- bought under his own name- with the hazard lights flashing, even although a marked police car had been in the area three minutes before he made his move.
Presumably he had a cover story ready had he been challenged by uniformed police but maybe it was as weak a story as his claim that ‘Eastern European immigrants’ were leaning on him and threatening to harm his family. A teenager could have come up with a better story than that nonsense about being forced to hand over a woman into prostitution, yet he mumbled it out in front of experienced detectives.
‘Forensically aware’ does not seem to have been in his vocabulary either. He was wearing the same clothes the day after the murder and his car yielded enough forensic evidence to put him away for life.
sammer
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Topic Originator: evo!
Date: Fri 1 Oct 14:53
"As noted above, we probably already take care not to get too close to a lone woman walking at night lest we make her uneasy. We would surely intervene if we saw a woman being harassed"
A fair way to look at things and i agree totally, have done this myself, however there was a video i seen recently of a woman getting mugged at a cash machine while 2 or 3 people stood around within a few feet of the incident filming it on the phone. So sadly the good Samaritan approach is quite different nowadays. Everyone would probably just want to post the video online as its a conversation piece
BEAST!
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Topic Originator: parsmad68
Date: Fri 1 Oct 17:03
Quote:
evo!, Fri 01 Oct 14:53
"As noted above, we probably already take care not to get too close to a lone woman walking at night lest we make her uneasy. We would surely intervene if we saw a woman being harassed"
A fair way to look at things and i agree totally, have done this myself, however there was a video i seen recently of a woman getting mugged at a cash machine while 2 or 3 people stood around within a few feet of the incident filming it on the phone. So sadly the good Samaritan approach is quite different nowadays. Everyone would probably just want to post the video online as its a conversation piece
Hi Evo I read a very detailed psychology book on this subject and the interveners would be very low as a percentage. It shocks many but is a true fact that people think they would intervene when asked but seldom do unfortunately.
Post Edited (Fri 01 Oct 17:07)
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Topic Originator: Milos Drizzle
Date: Fri 1 Oct 18:08
I wonder whether there is a connection between the low-level lurid behaviour towards women (the innuendo, the wolf whistles) still somewhat prevalent in society and the more extreme, rarer violence? Maybe if we go after that low-level behaviour we can reduce the more serious offences also. What I would also say is that we need to keep things neutral and sensible - suggesting #menbad will simply alienate the vast, vast majority of men that find wolf-whistling abhorrent!
This is my signature
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Fri 1 Oct 18:45
There are a couple of reasons why citizens don’t involve themselves when they see a person in trouble.
One is fear of being pulled into the situation and putting themself at risk. I saw this first hand as a boy when a man with a kitchen knife was chasing his wife down our street, she shouting for help. My next door neighbour punched the bloke to the ground where he struck his head and was laid out. By the time the police arrived (no telephones in houses back then) the woman was demanding that the police arrest my neighbour for attacking her ‘man.’ It took the intervention of those who had witnessed the scene to prevent this happening, otherwise my neighbour would likely have been charged with assault.
Another reason is that situations are not always clear at the time. The Sarah Everard case provides a good example of this. A man in civilian clothes is handcuffing a woman and putting her into the back of a civilian car. Yet a couple driving past did nothing. It sounds bad, but they assumed what they were meant to assume by Couzen: that a woman being handcuffed and put in a car with flashing hazard lights must have been arrested legally.
sammer
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Fri 1 Oct 19:45
Quote:
Milos Drizzle, Fri 1 Oct 18:08
I wonder whether there is a connection between the low-level lurid behaviour towards women (the innuendo, the wolf whistles) still somewhat prevalent in society and the more extreme, rarer violence? Maybe if we go after that low-level behaviour we can reduce the more serious offences also. What I would also say is that we need to keep things neutral and sensible - suggesting #menbad will simply alienate the vast, vast majority of men that find wolf-whistling abhorrent!
I wouldn't suggest the two are linked, but if you show that nonsense like wolf-whistling won't be tolerated then it indicates that more serious behaviours definitely won't be accepted.
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Topic Originator: Grant
Date: Fri 1 Oct 20:51
Quote:
jake89, Fri 1 Oct 19:45
Quote:
Milos Drizzle, Fri 1 Oct 18:08
I wonder whether there is a connection between the low-level lurid behaviour towards women (the innuendo, the wolf whistles) still somewhat prevalent in society and the more extreme, rarer violence? Maybe if we go after that low-level behaviour we can reduce the more serious offences also. What I would also say is that we need to keep things neutral and sensible - suggesting #menbad will simply alienate the vast, vast majority of men that find wolf-whistling abhorrent!
I wouldn't suggest the two are linked, but if you show that nonsense like wolf-whistling won't be tolerated then it indicates that more serious behaviours definitely won't be accepted.
Fully agree with you, however in this case surely the bloke in question was aware his actions wouldn't be accepted?
Can only stress again that I don't know the answer, but in serious crimes like Murder surely the perp knows what they're doing is wrong? I don't know how you defend against something like that. The **** seems unhinged, he'll have grown up knowing that murder was wrong though, but regardless he still done it. It's totally beyond me as to how you stop that.
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Fri 1 Oct 21:21
True. I imagine there are multiple things that lead to someone committing such an act.
However, perhaps if people called him out and reported him he would have been identified as a threat earlier on. In fairness, the suggestion is he WAS identified but it wasn't taken seriously enough.
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Sat 2 Oct 09:41
"In fairness, the suggestion is he WAS identified but it wasn`t taken seriously enough."
Or maybe covered up jake89 ? .. who knows
Meanwhile, there are calls for North Yorkshire commissioner Philip Allott to resign after he said women need to be "streetwise" about powers of arrest, adding that Ms Everard "never should have submitted" to the arrest by her killer.
Labour Party leader Sir Keir Starmer condemned the comments, saying: "I can`t think of a more inappropriate thing for a police and crime commissioner to say at any time, but at this time in particular."
We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Sat 2 Oct 09:59
Every single person should simply just resist arrest until such time as the police sort themselves out.
By sort themselves out I mean a root and branch examination of their recruitment, training and and supervision systems so that no further racists, misogynists or victim blamers are recruited or retained by any police force in the country.
The police in this country have covered up innumerable wrongdoings by their employees in an effort to maintain trust, despite the fact that the vast majority of us are far more likely to trust somebody who admits their mistakes and tries their best to rectify them.
What does Cressida Dick know? Because everyone else would have been fired a long time ago if they had presided over the seemingly unending procession of shameful and shambolic goings on at the Met since she took over. Although she would never have got the job in the first place were she properly held to account for her role in the Jean Charles de Menezes murder.
The enemy travels by private jet, not by dinghy.
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Sat 2 Oct 11:20
I wouldn’t recommend resisting arrest given the weaponry the average policeman is permitted to carry. The police are now kitted out like a paramilitary force and that reflects the gap of trust that has grown between the police and the public. Their uniform, particularly when attending protests, is designed to intimidate. That this development has occurred in line with an increasing gap between the extremely rich and the rest of society I do not regard as a coincidence.
So long as the police are required to defend a status quo that is so clearly unjust then it matters little whether or not they are staffed by misogynists, racists or victim blamers. Such attitudes may add salt to the wound but the real problem is the police being required to enforce laws that are designed to protect the rich and powerful. No one can surely believe that a misogynist copper would rough up Kate Middleton or a racist bobby put Priti Patel in a headlock.
The problem with the police is the laws they enforce and the mindset this encourages. (Notice how Couzens managed to namecheck ‘Eastern European’ and ‘immigrants’ into his preposterous fantasy story. He must have believed he had a sympathetic audience in his fellow policemen.) The ‘them’ and ‘us’ attitudes will not be removed by rooting out prejudiced officers.
sammer
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Topic Originator: Rastapari
Date: Sun 3 Oct 07:49
Sammed nails it, the police aren't there for othe same reasons they used to be, the lowered standards, it shows.
Carole Baskin fed Rasta to a tiger.
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Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Sun 3 Oct 10:23
Whilst I'm a raging anarchist who would love nothing better than I would the destruction of all involuntary hierarchies I tend to find it off-putting for a lot of folk if I never compromise on that.
I have learned over the years that if I employ a touch of pragmatism then I'm more likely to make any sort of sense to folk who have less familiarity with the impenetrable ramblings of 19th century German dudes (plus that one American woman.)
The enemy travels by private jet, not by dinghy.
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Tue 5 Oct 15:54
Quote:
Buspasspar, Sat 2 Oct 09:41
Meanwhile, there are calls for North Yorkshire commissioner Philip Allott to resign after he said women need to be "streetwise" about powers of arrest, adding that Ms Everard "never should have submitted" to the arrest by her killer.
Labour Party leader Sir Keir Starmer condemned the comments, saying: "I can`t think of a more inappropriate thing for a police and crime commissioner to say at any time, but at this time in particular."
Ah, I get it. It was all the poor girl's own fault really?
What a complete tool of a man to be holding such a position
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Mon 11 Oct 09:13
From the Times .. Grim reading if true :-
Two thousand police have been accused of sexual misconduct, including rape, over the past four years.
In nearly two thirds of cases officers accused of sexual violence and of abusing their power for personal gratification faced no further action.
The figures were revealed as a Times investigation showed that sexual misconduct and other police corruption is routinely covered up. Forces frequently hold hearings to examine cases in private, even though they should be heard in public. Damning information on the outcome of cases is also deleted from websites where the public could see it.
....................................................
Dozens of police officers in Scotland have been accused of sexual misconduct in the past four years but none has been dismissed, an investigation has found.
Since 2017 the national force has had 166 officers and special constables accused of more than 245 separate sexual offences.
Channel 4 Dispatches found that no one had been dismissed from Police Scotland over these allegations, claiming that some serving officers with proven cases of misconduct remained on active duty.
We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Thu 14 Oct 16:10
The tool has gone G.G. Not before time :-
A police boss whose comments about the Sarah Everard case sparked outrage has resigned hours after a no-confidence vote.
Philip Allott said he would "do the decent thing" and leave his post as North Yorkshire Police, Fire and Crime Commissioner.
It followed a unanimous vote passed by the county`s Police, Fire and Crime panel.
Members had urged him to step down after an outcry over his remarks.
Mr Allott has faced waves of criticism since he told BBC Radio York that women should be more "streetwise" during an interview about Ms Everard`s murder.
He had resisted multiple calls to stand down, which were repeated by members of the panel at the meeting prior to the no-confidence vote.
We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Thu 14 Oct 22:47
We don't need to better protect our daughters, we need to better educate our sons.
The enemy travels by private jet, not by dinghy.
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Fri 15 Oct 14:52
There is so much that could and should be tackled in this area. A lot of this can be put on education and parents, but it needs EVERYONE to work together.
There's no point parents telling kids to respect women if they're then meeting their pals or going to school and hearing "she'd get it" or "nice t*ts" etc. This sort of language needs to be killed off. Same with any other language around sexual orientation, race, wealth, gender etc.
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Fri 15 Oct 18:43
I’m not so sure that school education can achieve very much in this area. In terms of influencing boys’ behaviour women have unprecedented access. Every boy has a mother and is usually brought up by her. 75% of teachers in UK schools are female. This seems a heaven sent opportunity to crush what is loosely described as a culture of ‘toxic masculinity’ yet it is apparently unable to do so. An astonishing failure, especially since 30 years ago we were told that increased numbers of female teachers schools would lead to a kinder, more empathetic pupil taking his or her place in society. Will it take 100% females in schools to bring this about?
And how is this topic of ‘Respect’ going to be taught? Most likely some beleaguered Guidance Teacher will be asked to issue worksheets fashioned by education offices, big on good intentions and weak on detail. An abstract vocabulary of ‘toxic’ ‘controlling’ ‘stalking’ ‘misogynist’ ‘entitlement’ will be learned but little absorbed, boxes ticked and attitudes largely unchanged.
Picking up Jake’s point about language, the term ‘toxic masculinity’ is part of the problem since masculinity has got absolutely nothing to do with mistreating women, toxic or otherwise. In fact masculinity is very much about sharing the responsibilities we have to society alongside women. People who use the term ‘toxic masculinity’ are either thoughtless, or have a problem with men per se. They have developed the habit of shoving the adjective ‘toxic’ in front of anything they don’t like in order to make their own argument easier. It has no more meaning than me describing a woman who has murdered her husband as an example of ‘toxic femininity.’
sammer
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Fri 15 Oct 21:15
It's a complex issue. The majority of mental health is in men, the majority of suicide is in men. Men are told we're all equal but you're still far more likely to see a woman cry or a share an issue they have. It's still expected of men that they should "man up". That attitude comes from both men and women.
So men are taught from a young age to be a bit of a lad. It's alright to chase a bit of skirt - that's what lads do.
My kids have both told me that something is a "girls toy". We've never told them what's a "girl" toy or a "boy" toy but society teaches them this. We pretend we've moved on and girls can join the scouts and men can join the guild, but it's not really changed. A girl joining the scouts as seen as a bit edgy, a man joining the guild is assumed to be effeminate.
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Wed 27 Oct 09:24
From the Daily Mirror :-
Wayne Couzens is seeking permission to appeal against his whole-life term for the murder of Sarah Everard.
The Met Police officer used Covid powers to falsely arrest Sarah, 33, as she walked home from a friend`s house in March.
A court official said on Tuesday: "We have been notified that an appeal has been lodged by Mr Couzens."
If permission is granted the case will be heard by the Court of Appeal Criminal Division.
Couzens, 48, pleaded guilty to the kidnap, rape and murder of Sarah.
Labour MP Jess Phillips condemned Couzens attempts to appeal the sentence.
"I`m shocked by what appears as a continued inability of Couzens to understand the severity of his actions or the pain that such an appeal will cause to the Everard family," she told The Mirror.
We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Wed 27 Oct 16:58
It’s true that Couzens still seems unaware of the gravity of his crime, but maybe not in quite the way that Jess Phillips sees it. In simple terms kidnap, rape and murder is a life sentence obviously but the full life tariff was imposed for a number of reasons.
First of all the crime was premeditated, for there was clear evidence of what used to be called ‘malice aforethought.’ Secondly, the disposal of the victim and the relaxed nature of Couzens afterwards displayed contempt for human life in general, including his immediate family.
I doubt if these two reasons were sufficient for an all life tariff however. Had the victim been one of the prostitutes Couzens consorted with then the media interest would have been less obvious, the public outrage more muted. However Sarah Everard was a white, middle class woman who responded politely when approached by a policeman as she walked along a London street. She would have been brought up to respect the police and comply with their orders. That is why I think Couzens is doomed to die in jail, for he did not just betray the wider public but undermined the police service in the eyes of the very people who offer it instinctive support.
sammer
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Wed 27 Oct 17:03
Good post sammer
I honestly cannot believe he is appealing .. Sarahs family have gone through enough without that
Hopefully he will be denied the appeal and rots in gaol
We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend
Date: Wed 27 Oct 18:12
Well said, Sammer
It`s bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983
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Topic Originator: ipswichpar
Date: Wed 27 Oct 18:20
Do we have time to bring back the death penalty before his appeal is heard?
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Wed 27 Oct 23:16
Well the UK probably could, now that it outwith the EU. In fact I have always thought that imperial measures and the death penalty were part of the populist anti-EU movement’s cards to be played at a later date.
Executing Couzens would be legitimate enough, but opens up more problems than it solves. His guilt is clear enough but other, equally terrible crimes like the Clydach triple murders, are not. So we might end up with two categories of murderer: those who are to be executed because their guilt is absolutely proven, and those whose guilt is merely proved beyond a reasonable doubt. Once we have two levels of guilt the concept of murder becomes tarnished.
And the tabloids must be licking their lips at the prospect of capital punishment since they can run polls on who is to be reprieved and who is not. This happened back in the 1950s and would be more of a problem now. Pierrepoint hanged a elderly Cypriot woman in the 1950s and walked out into an empty street. A few months later he hanged Ruth Ellis, a young, blond, English woman and could not leave the prison for a few hours due to the crowd outside protesting.
A person’s life can be swayed by the mob? No thanks. I am sure McArthur and Grant would agree.
sammer
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Thu 28 Oct 07:18
Ellis was Welsh rather than English. She was also well known with some semi-famous characters, which I'd expect swayed the media.
The trouble with the death penalty will always be that it's final. You can't release a dead person based on new evidence.
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Topic Originator: veteraneastender
Date: Thu 28 Oct 09:27
"Do we have time to bring back the death penalty before his appeal is heard? "
The UK abolished Capital Punishment in all circumstances as of 1st Feb.2004, there is zero chance of it being reintroduced.
As for Couzens appeal (correct me if wrong) he has nothing to lose - as I understand it the Appeal Court has powers to increase a sentence, as well lessen it - therefore it could be a gamble to appeal except if there is no possibility of a more severe sentence.
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Topic Originator: Rastapari
Date: Fri 29 Oct 13:41
Another Met officer...this time child porn.
Makes you wonder what the vetting process is.
Carole Baskin fed Rasta to a tiger.
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Topic Originator: auldpar
Date: Fri 29 Oct 13:56
Also makes you wonder how Cressida Dick is still in a job.
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Topic Originator: Grant
Date: Fri 29 Oct 14:26
Quote:
Rastapari, Fri 29 Oct 13:41
Another Met officer...this time child porn.
Makes you wonder what the vetting process is.
I don't imagine that everyone who joins the police has to hand over there hard drive tbf mate.
I'm fortunate that I've never known a paedophile, however I've got mates that have in the past, and they are all consistent in that they didn't know, and absolutely wouldn't have suspected it. Which is fairly obvious right enough but you get the jist?
Ive said it before, maybe even on this thread but when you recruit at such numbers as what the Police, Army etc does, and give people a role with some powers I don't think it's terribly surprising that you'll get wrong 'uns, as much as we might not like to think it theres some bad people in the world, it's not surprising that a job with power would appeal to them.
With that in mind I don't find it surprising that some people in these positions are in turn bad people, all I ask is that they when are found they are treated with the full force of the law.
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Topic Originator: Pars232
Date: Fri 29 Oct 16:20
I agree with what Rasta has alluded to. Not just vetting to be accepted into the police but is there frequent checks around integrity? I’d assume there to be but are they robust enough? I have in my job
Post Edited (Fri 29 Oct 16:21)
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Sat 30 Oct 12:53
We don't check out any professional. Years ago I spoke to a guy who worked at Disclosure Scotland and he said all that bit of paper proved was you hadn't been caught or you'd been caught abroad and the details hadn't been shared with the UK.
The difference here is that this officer had been caught previously.
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Topic Originator: veteraneastender
Date: Sat 30 Oct 18:28
Quote:
jake89, Sat 30 Oct 12:53
We don't check out any professional. Years ago I spoke to a guy who worked at Disclosure Scotland and he said all that bit of paper proved was you hadn't been caught or you'd been caught abroad and the details hadn't been shared with the UK.
The difference here is that this officer had been caught previously.
Disclosure is only accurate on the day it’s issued, which is universally accepted as an unavoidable limitation.
It does (or should) however reveal any previous debarring issues, which is the reason it was introduced.
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Sat 30 Oct 22:38
But only if you were caught and convicted. So, for example, Jimmy Savile would have had no mention of being a rapist and child abuser on his disclosure as he wasn't convicted until after death.
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Topic Originator: veteraneastender
Date: Sun 31 Oct 00:09
If an applicant has no criminal record, of any type, (not only offences of a sexual abuse nature), then the Disclosure process obviously can`t identify the applicant as unsuitable for working with young people or vulnerable adults.
It can, and does, pickup on individuals with previous convictions.
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Topic Originator: Rastapari
Date: Sun 31 Oct 06:34
My old man worked at the Scotyish Police College.....standards have slipped somewhat in recent years.
Some of the stories really should have been plastered all over the papers, animals...pigs...if you like.
Carole Baskin fed Rasta to a tiger.
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