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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Mon 17 Apr 12:26
It`s the argument between VEE and OP, on the Football forum thread, "Happy Pars Family" - it got me wondering, something I notice about people at times - are they both right and wrong?
Being left-footed at fitba`, I`m surprised I never heard of "left-footer" as a derogatory term. I looked it up and it is though, when used in the context of a particular religion.
If it was used in a purely football context, i.e. being left-footed, it`s not derogatory, but in the context of sectarianism, (football context or not), it is.
Nevertheless, just as I had never even heard of it, maybe somebody who used "left-footer" in a post on the football forum had thought only that the UK`s official religion is Protestant, and assumed that "left-footer" must mean any non-official religion?
I could easily have made that mistake, if I hadn`t just read that the UK`s official religion is not Protestantism, but Christianity, including all its denominations - Catholic, Protestant, Baptist, Methodist etc.
I don`t know the original posts VEE and OP were arguing about, which could make a difference – but I wonder if they could possibly both be wrong and right?
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Mon 17 Apr 12:34
Left footer is a pretty old school term. Few will even be aware of it as society has progressed somewhat.
The origins of the term in the offensive sense are pretty offensive and understandable that people wouldn`t like that term being used. However, I`m sure most people can tell the difference between "left footer" being used to describe someone hitting a ball with their left foot and "left footer" being used to describe someone`s religious leanings.
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Mon 17 Apr 12:50
I wouldn`t have understood it though, Jake, and I`m not all that thick. I`d have thought it just meant different to the mainstream (official) religion; which I had mistakenly thought was Protestantism. That`s what I thought I had learned at school, i.e. got to keep the Jacobites out!
Not that what the UK`s official religion is matters to me, but I know it does to a lot of folk. But I do like the peace in some o` the old churches, abbeys and cathedrals.
Post Edited (Mon 17 Apr 12:50)
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Topic Originator: Stanza
Date: Mon 17 Apr 13:56
Quote:
onandupthepars, Mon 17 Apr 12:26
Nevertheless, just as I had never even heard of it, maybe somebody who used "left-footer" in a post on the football forum had thought only that the UK`s official religion is Protestant, and assumed that "left-footer" must mean any non-official religion?
I could easily have made that mistake, if I hadn`t just read that the UK`s official religion is not Protestantism, but Christianity, including all its denominations - Catholic, Protestant, Baptist, Methodist etc.
I`m not sure it`s right to assume that the UK`s official religion is an all-embracing "Christianity", although the British Council website seems to make this claim.
For example, the 1689 Bill of Rights and the 1701 Act of Settlement specifically exclude a Roman Catholic from succession to the throne. Also, the Sovereign must be in communion with the Church of England and must swear to preserve the established Church of England and the established Church of Scotland. The Sovereign must also promise to uphold the Protestant succession.
Restrictions on Roman Catholics also extend to some senior elected politicians whose job it is to advise the sovereign on the appointment of Church of England bishops.
The 1829 Roman Catholic Relief Act makes it unlawful for anyone “professing the Roman Catholic religion” to be involved in offering this advice. So the Lord Chancellor is barred, and this should probably also bar the Prime Minister who appoints the Lord Chancellor. Typically, Boris Johnson ignored this despite being a baptised Roman Catholic, and Tony Blair only officially converted to Roman Catholicism after leaving office despite practicising Catholicism secretly for many years.
Back to the main point, as an older generation Glaswegian the term "left-footer" is very familiar to me, and it`s not one that is very complimentary, although it was often used semi-jokingly. In Michael Munro`s "The Patter" it is defined as:
"to kick with the left foot means to be a Roman Catholic. To kick with the wrong foot means to profess a religion regarded as unsuitable: `Nae chance of gettin a game for them. Ye kick wi the wrang fit.` "
Possibly it is similar to the way in which dexterous and sinister have their origins in the Latin words for right and left. Most people are right-handed/footed so those who are not are seen as strange and not to be trusted.
_________________
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Topic Originator: Bletchley_Par
Date: Mon 17 Apr 14:31
"That great radish? That steaming great left-footer? The Earl of Doncaster, Baldrick, has been riding side-saddle since he was seventeen...."
I grew up thinking "left-footer" was a derogatory term for something else.
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Topic Originator: Ormiston_Par
Date: Mon 17 Apr 15:50
Just to be very clear - I was not taking issue with the term "left footer" in the context of describing someone who literally kicks with their left foot. That would of course be ridiculous...
I was calling out its use as a derogatory term for Roman Catholics, which I (perhaps naively) thought had no place in civilised conversation in the year 2023.
The defence of saying that "I`ve been called a left-footer myself but I never took offence" is flimsy at best, and offers no justification whatsoever IMO.
Let us consider the fact that African Americans tend to use the N-word much more often than any other group - does that make the word itself any less objectionable?
In my view, "Left footer" is no more acceptable than terms like "Darkie", "Fenian", "Paki" or "Chinky".
Post Edited (Mon 17 Apr 15:52)
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Mon 17 Apr 16:39
Or `Hun`
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Mon 17 Apr 16:50
I was born into the Catholic religion and also taught in a RC high school for most of my career - not through choice, initially. There were 2 posts and I was asked for my preference. I asked for the non denominational school but was assigned to the RC - probably so I could be asked to teach RE for a couple of periods per week.
The term "left footer" was regularly bandied about by both Catholic colleagues and non and nobody was ever upset by it. Perhaps we were ignorant of the fact that we should have been.
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Mon 17 Apr 19:18
It`s easy to come on here and pretend that the language we use has no bearing outside of our wee privileged existence as folk with the time, energy and resources to argue about words on the internet. But clearly we are unlikely to be at the sharp end of the damage they do, and soldier on with naive innocence about the impact of words and language.
The only red card I got on here for trying to argue that it was acceptable to use the N-word in a discussion about language. I argued that it was perfectly fine to use that word unless you were using it to describe another person.*
I was wrong then. I was distracted by my own naivety regarding the wider implications of how that word had, and is, used. I`d probably been watching The Wire or Quentin Tarantino and got excited.
*To highlight how the debate around this has moved on, a fair few in that discussion were arguing that it was fine to use the word to describe people because "it`s just the Spanish word for black."
"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
Post Edited (Mon 17 Apr 19:19)
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Topic Originator: veteraneastender
Date: Mon 17 Apr 19:26
What is Spanish for a black and white scarf, for example ?
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Mon 17 Apr 20:05
Whats French for Deja vu
We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Mon 17 Apr 22:22
A point I was trying to make really boils down to ignorance, in the true meaning of the word, i.e. lack of knowledge and understanding.
Using myself as an example, there are things I think are true which must have got into my head early, e.g. at school or through TV, and I never had reason to doubt them.
When I asked my wife what she thought is the official religion of the UK, she also said "Protestantism." (Because of this thread, I don`t think there is an "official religion" of the UK now, I think there`s a prevalent one: Christianity, and that the most common denomination is Protestantism.)
I assume it`s the same for a lot o` folk, that there are things we think are true, that we didn`t choose to think are true, they just get in our nuts somehow. And where does it leave us (/Humanity), if we don`t know what it is that we don`t know?
We can`t go through our heads questioning everything we ever thought was true, but I suppose we can question some of the more significant things, and such things as are brought to our attention, which is the value of having a thread like this - it wouldn`t have happened if not for Ormiston Par raising the objection, so credit to OP there.
I agree with him that "left-footer" as applied to a particular religion is completely objectionable. Now I wonder if VEE used it originally in that context, or was he just being matter of fact about never having felt offended by it, as was GG Riva and myself, when we said we just didn`t know there was a derogatory meaning?
Post Edited (Mon 17 Apr 22:25)
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Tue 18 Apr 02:29
The term ‘left footer’ was clearly derogatory when I heard it as a boy in the 1960s as applied to Catholics. It sounded old fashioned even then but to my ear sounded slightly less offensive than either ‘Fenian’ or ‘Pape’ which were also in the air. As a Protestant who was sent off to Sunday School of a morning I was probably not in a good position to judge how offensive any these terms actually were but I don’t remember them being much used by people my age.
As an adult in the 1970s I used terms like ‘Paki’ and ‘Chinky’ but only in relation to shops: like many others I would never have dreamed of using these terms in relation to actual people. I would have said ‘Pakistani bloke’ or ‘Chinese girl,’ so maybe that makes me a bigot with a conscience.
The last 20 years I worked outside UK and found myself on the receiving end for a change. In the Anglo-Saxon foreign workers’ world (called ‘ex-pats’ for reasons unknown) I was a one of the ‘Jocks’ alongside ‘Paddies’ and ‘Taffies.’ Well, that was the case with any English worker who had ever been near the UK military. There was no obvious malice in these terms any more than intended by mine regarding Asians in the 1970s but I made it clear, as did others, that these terms were past their sell by date.
So language and terms of reference move on and while we don’t need to be ultra-sensitive, we have to recognise that fact if we want to have good relations with others.
sammer
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Tue 18 Apr 08:37
I remember back in the late fifties Catholics being referred to as left footers and occasionally hairy backs We lived next door to a Catholic family and the son John was my best pal growing up .. It was his Uncle George that took us to our first Dunfermline v Celtic game and we were both Pars fans from that day on .. much to George`s annoyance as he thought we would be Tic fans like him :-))
We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Tue 18 Apr 11:37
Wotsit, the N-word as I understand it (as in the word you`d often hear in a Quentin Tarantino movie) isn`t the same as the Spanish word for black.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: DBP
Date: Tue 18 Apr 12:20
Funny take on power of words and them being claimed by that respective community - prejudice by Tim Minchin
https://youtu.be/KVN_0qvuhhw
Post Edited (Tue 18 Apr 12:20)
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Topic Originator: veteraneastender
Date: Tue 18 Apr 12:28
The six letter `N` word, as corrupted into American slang and derived for the Spanish for black is absolutely racist and offensive.
The regular 5 letter word used in the Spanish speaking world is in the dictionary and used without any racial intent.
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Topic Originator: Stanza
Date: Tue 18 Apr 12:35
Quote:
veteraneastender, Mon 17 Apr 19:26
What is Spanish for a black and white scarf, for example ?
"una bufanda blanca y negra"
Not sure what argument that advances, though.
_________________
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Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Tue 18 Apr 14:38
Quote:
The One Who Knocks, Tue 18 Apr 11:37
Wotsit, the N-word as I understand it (as in the word you`d often hear in a Quentin Tarantino movie) isn`t the same as the Spanish word for black.
That was part of my argument at the time TOWK .
It fell on deaf ears though.
"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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Topic Originator: Ormiston_Par
Date: Tue 18 Apr 19:06
The regular 5 letter word used in the Spanish speaking world is in the dictionary and used without any racial intent.
Yes, by native Spanish speakers. In English, that 5 letter word is very much used with racial intent.
The six letter N-word is also in the dictionary, incidentally.
The artist formerly known as KGB / Slim Hoolie
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Topic Originator: parsfan
Date: Tue 18 Apr 19:55
Quote:
Ormiston_Par, Tue 18 Apr 19:06
The regular 5 letter word used in the Spanish speaking world is in the dictionary and used without any racial intent.
Yes, by native Spanish speakers. In English, that 5 letter word is very much used with racial intent.
The six letter N-word is also in the dictionary, incidentally.
The Spanish and English pronunciations are different, so quite easy to avoid confusion. That said, I`ve seen people in Spanish classes have trouble saying it, a bit like some at school being too embarrassed to say the German word for "six".
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The universe is ruled by chance and indifference
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Topic Originator: veteraneastender
Date: Tue 18 Apr 20:00
I’m surprised that the racist 6 letter word is in the Spanish dictionary - it’s origins I think are originally an English corruption of the Latin for black.
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Tue 18 Apr 23:15
Sort of related to this, some cretin has spray painted "SHOOT [inappropriate slang term for a Catholic person]" on one of the advertising boards in the field just as you come into Crossgates from Cowdenbeath. It`s private land so the council won`t touch it. Does anyone know who it should be reported to?
I suspect it`s the UB07 mob again. They seem obsessed with vandalising under the bridge there too. It`s currently covered in red, white and blue paint. Is Crossgates now twinned with Derry/Londonderry?!
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Topic Originator: alwaysaPar
Date: Wed 19 Apr 06:36
Quote:
jake89, Tue 18 Apr 23:15
Sort of related to this, some cretin has spray painted "SHOOT [inappropriate slang term for a Catholic person]" on one of the advertising boards in the field just as you come into Crossgates from Cowdenbeath. It`s private land so the council won`t touch it. Does anyone know who it should be reported to?
I suspect it`s the UB07 mob again. They seem obsessed with vandalising under the bridge there too. It`s currently covered in red, white and blue paint. Is Crossgates now twinned with Derry/Londonderry?!
Humour it may be , but tarring the whole village with the actions of a couple of bored youngsters is a bit much.....
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Wed 19 Apr 06:50
"Bored kids"? They`ve painted "SHOOT [T-WORD]" in foot high letters. Assuming it`s the same people, they`ve been vandalising that bridge for a good few years with constant sectarian crap. An absolute embarrassment for the village and Fife as a whole to seem to accept this nonsense.
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Topic Originator: alwaysaPar
Date: Wed 19 Apr 09:04
Quote:
jake89, Wed 19 Apr 06:50
"Bored kids"? They`ve painted "SHOOT [T-WORD]" in foot high letters. Assuming it`s the same people, they`ve been vandalising that bridge for a good few years with constant sectarian crap. An absolute embarrassment for the village and Fife as a whole to seem to accept this nonsense.
Looks for the acceptance..........
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Wed 19 Apr 10:41
They`re clearly not "bored youngsters" though? This isn`t a spur of the moment thing like scratching something into a bench. It`s a co-ordinated activity.
Agree not to tar the whole area with the same brush, but it`s been going on for years and it looks like the council (or highways) have given up removing the vandalism on the bridge. The current "shoot" message is in a farmers field so not sure what can be done about that. It doesn`t reflect well on the area though.
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Topic Originator: Ormiston_Par
Date: Wed 19 Apr 11:33
The Spanish and English pronunciations are different, so quite easy to avoid confusion.
Indeed, that was my point. The word in its native Spanish usage isn`t inherently racist - it`s just the word for "black". When used in English though, I`m not sure I can actually think of a non-racial context in which it might be used.
The artist formerly known as KGB / Slim Hoolie
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Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert
Date: Wed 19 Apr 12:56
The colours on the flyover change regularly, from blue/red/white to green/orange/white, must be costing them a fortune!
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Fri 21 Apr 21:09
Looks like Police Scotland have finally noticed.
Click here
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Sun 30 Apr 06:56
Quote:
Ormiston_Par, Wed 19 Apr 11:33
The Spanish and English pronunciations are different, so quite easy to avoid confusion.
Indeed, that was my point. The word in its native Spanish usage isn`t inherently racist - it`s just the word for "black". When used in English though, I`m not sure I can actually think of a non-racial context in which it might be used.
Isn`t it context and intent which determines whether a word or phrase is racist or not? To further confuse matters, what is or isn`t considered racist, can differ in different countries.
e.g. In Italy it is considered racist to describe a person with dark skin as "nero" which means "black." The accepted terminology is " signore/signora di colore", literally a "a gentleman/lady of colour". A less clumsy translation would be "a coloured lady/ gent" which would be regarded as racist and offensive in this country, I believe.
I had to laugh when I watched a police series on Italian TV, "Nero a Metà", which means "Half Black", starring a white cop and a black cop, similar to the Lethal Weapon films. A white lady came in to the police station to report a crime. "It was a lady of colour" she informed the black cop, "She had a colour". "Everybody has a colour" the exasperated cop replied. "You`re not transparent, are you?"
I can highly recommend the series, btw, if you can get it dubbed into English or with subtitles
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert
Date: Sun 30 Apr 13:22
Still get embarrassed at ordering dark rum in Spain, whilst being offered Bacardi.
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Sun 30 Apr 15:28
Quote:
LochgellyAlbert, Sun 30 Apr 13:22
Still get embarrassed at ordering dark rum in Spain, whilst being offered Bacardi.
Dark rum in Spanish is ron oscuro?
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Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert
Date: Sun 30 Apr 15:40
Quote:
jake89, Sun 30 Apr 15:28
Quote:
LochgellyAlbert, Sun 30 Apr 13:22
Still get embarrassed at ordering dark rum in Spain, whilst being offered Bacardi.
Dark rum in Spanish is ron oscuro?
Cheers for that, I usually just say negro!
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Topic Originator: charlie1
Date: Sun 30 Apr 15:53
It`s Anejo.
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Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert
Date: Sun 30 Apr 19:49
Anejo denotes age of rum?
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Tue 2 May 23:37
And this is the kind of anti-Catholic crap going on in the 21st century: Click here
Couple of drunk Rangers fans abusing a young woman with a baby for the single reason of being a Catholic. The video is horrific. The story seems to be that she`s been advised to move for her own safety whilst the pair of them have been released pending further enquiries.
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