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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Tue 16 Sep 11:28
An interesting article on BBC News -
`More than 13,000 heroin and opioid deaths have been missed off official statistics in England and Wales, raising concerns about the impact on the government`s approach to tackling addiction. Research from King`s College London, shared exclusively with BBC News, found that there were 39,232 opioid-related deaths between 2011 and 2022, more than 50% higher than previously known.
The error has been blamed on the government`s official statistics body not having access to post-mortem reports or toxicology results. Data on specific drug deaths is a major driver of policy and it is understood the government is now working with coroners to improve the reporting of deaths. The number of opioid deaths per million people in England and Wales has almost doubled since 2012, but this new study means the scale of the problem is likely to be even greater.
The flaw in the ONS system is not present in Scotland, where there are no coroners and where National Records Scotland (NRS) is responsible for collating official statistics. Unlike the ONS, the NRS does receive more detailed pathology reports, but differences in how deaths are reported across the UK make it difficult to compare.`
After adjusting for this error the rate of drug deaths in Scotland will still be approx 1.5 times the rate for E&W rather than 2.3 times the rate as previously reported. Can we expect to see this reported on the front of the Mail/Express/Telegraph etc?
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Tue 16 Sep 12:40
All sorts of deaths are recorded differently depending on the country. They key thing in Scotland is to ensure deaths are recorded accurately and seek to reduce instances of deaths that could have been avoided.
It sounds like England needs to review how it captures and analyses data.
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Tue 16 Sep 13:18
You would have thought the media would check statistics were compiled on a consistent basis before quoting them for comparison purposes. Who can you believe if you can`t trust non-political statistical bodies?
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Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert
Date: Tue 16 Sep 13:44
I believe that a "drug death" in Scotland is recorded whenever drugs are found in the blood stream of the victim.
Someone who is killed in a car crash and has any drugs in their system is recorded as a "drug death"
The rules in England are different, hence the big difference.
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Topic Originator: NMCmassive
Date: Tue 16 Sep 13:53
Quote:
LochgellyAlbert, Tue 16 Sep 13:44
I believe that a "drug death" in Scotland is recorded whenever drugs are found in the blood stream of the victim.
Someone who is killed in a car crash and has any drugs in their system is recorded as a "drug death"
The rules in England are different, hence the big difference.
See that raises other questions and it starts becoming really tedious. You really need to know on a case by case basis.
So if you’re killed as a passenger in a car and you’re found to have heroin in your system, would that be a drug death?
COYP
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Tue 16 Sep 14:12
If the figures compiled for the nations within the UK are not comparable how can we be sure those compiled for other countries throughout the world are? Scotland might have a much stricter definition of `drug death` than anywhere else.
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Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Tue 16 Sep 14:26
There`s often more than one reason given, or, more accurately, more than one [I]contributing factor listed, for a death.
A passenger in a car who is in an accident with heroin in their system wouldn`t be a drug death unless the drug was considered a contributing factor. Someone on coke distracting the driver and causing them to crash for instance.
If drugs are found in the blood of a driver who dies in a car accident then it would most likely be listed as a contributing factor.
The cause of death, as it appears on the death certificate, would usually be respiratory failure in the case of a heroin overdose, and whatever specific fatal injuries occurred in the case of a car accident.
The enemy travels by private jet, not by dinghy.
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Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert
Date: Tue 16 Sep 16:20
So surely only cases should be classed as "drug death " when it`s an obvious overdose?
Or does that disrupt the narrative?
Post Edited (Tue 16 Sep 16:21)
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Topic Originator: NMCmassive
Date: Tue 16 Sep 16:34
Quote:
LochgellyAlbert, Tue 16 Sep 16:20
So surely only cases should be classed as "drug death " when it`s an obvious overdose?
Or does that disrupt the narrative?
That was my understanding of it but I may be wrong 🤷🏻♂️
COYP
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Tue 16 Sep 16:44
There was the same issue during COVID. You had people who had stage 4 cancer dying while having COVID and it being recorded as a death from COVID when it was probably the straw that broke the camels back!
Remember the phrase - Lies, damned lies, and statistics.
Look at minimum unit pricing for example. Stats show a reduction in alcohol abuse, which would suggest success. But it doesn`t consider what the trend was before and if higher alcohol prices were why alcohol abuse reduced. There`s evidence to suggest that problem drinkers simply moved to cheap drugs instead of alcohol.
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Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Tue 16 Sep 17:51
I think folk are maybe missing the distinction between "cause" and " contributing factor"?
If you have cancer and die six months earlier than predicted because you get COVID, meaning your respiratory system is impacted, then your cause of death is still cancer, but it`s still medically valid to note that COVID played a part.
If you have cancer and your meds impact your judgement so you have a car crash your cause of death would maybe be trauma, but I assume that folk are comfortable with the idea that cancer played a part?
If you are addicted to heroin such that your life descends into chaos and you end up homeless and sleeping rough, but die of exposure due to not being aware of your surroundings so you fall asleep on a bench in January with no shirt on, does heroin not play a part in your death despite the actual cause being exposure?
The enemy travels by private jet, not by dinghy.
Post Edited (Tue 16 Sep 17:53)
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Tue 16 Sep 18:10
It doesn`t really matter what the measure is. What matters is comparing like for like. Scotland could becomes the country with the least number dying from drugs if it changes the measure to say they only count it if the person has left a signed declaration stating their death was linked to drug use.
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Tue 16 Sep 18:36
That was the point of the original post, jake. If you`re going to prepare a `league table` of countries` drug deaths you have to make sure they`re all defining drug deaths in the same way. I`ve never seen that disclaimer on any of the stats I`ve seen putting Scotland in the worst position.
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Topic Originator: veteraneastender
Date: Tue 16 Sep 18:55
Stats (in all areas) can be very misleading - a few years back it was highlighted that there had been an annual 100% rise in police Scotland shooting incidents resulting in the death of the allegedly armed victim.
The report failed to mention that there had been only one such occurrence the previous year.
Post Edited (Tue 16 Sep 18:55)
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Tue 16 Sep 18:58
Quote:
wee eck, Tue 16 Sept 18:36
That was the point of the original post, jake. If you`re going to prepare a `league table` of countries` drug deaths you have to make sure they`re all defining drug deaths in the same way. I`ve never seen that disclaimer on any of the stats I`ve seen putting Scotland in the worst position.
Yep, it`s pointless doing comparisons. If you look at Portugal it will likely have the lowest levels of illegal drug use...because it decriminalised so many drugs 😂
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Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Tue 16 Sep 19:22
Biggest issue is the headlines in the papers - focus on the negative “Scotland has the biggest drug deaths in Europe again” rather than the positive “Scottish drug related deaths reduced from last year”
Usual sh*te though, had it been in England it would’ve been other way about.
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Topic Originator: Tad Allagash
Date: Tue 16 Sep 22:39
Maybe life expectancy is a better measure. Cause of death is subjective, but age at death is accurately recorded and can’t be gamed.
Low life expectancy in an area is a pretty good indicator that there are high levels of drug/alcohol/suicide deaths.
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Tue 16 Sep 23:12
No one is disputing that. We`re making the point that you can`t make meaningful comparisons between different countries if you`re not using a consistent way of identifying the cause of death.
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Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert
Date: Tue 16 Sep 23:46
Quote:
wee eck, Tue 16 Sept 23:12
No one is disputing that. We`re making the point that you can`t make meaningful comparisons between different countries if you`re not using a consistent way of identifying the cause of death.
Spot on!
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Topic Originator: ipswichpar
Date: Wed 17 Sep 09:50
The start of this week`s More or Less on Radio 4 made me think about this thread (although it was about employment and unemployment claims).
If it takes a professor 10 minutes to explain it`s complicated then there`s no way that a journalist is going to be smart enough to communicate this stuff, or the majority of the country come close to properly understanding it!
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Wed 17 Sep 10:18
Quote:
Tad Allagash, Tue 16 Sept 22:39
Maybe life expectancy is a better measure. Cause of death is subjective, but age at death is accurately recorded and can’t be gamed.
Low life expectancy in an area is a pretty good indicator that there are high levels of drug/alcohol/suicide deaths.
Scotland still loses on life expectancy, though mainly because Glasgow drags the entire country down. If you exclude Glasgow then Scotland`s doing pretty well in terms of life expectancy, drug deaths and deprivation. When a Weegie slags the rest of Scotland you have to wonder what drugs they`re on. They keep trying to treat the "problem" that is Glasgow rather than solve it.
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Topic Originator: NMCmassive
Date: Wed 17 Sep 11:44
Quote:
jake89, Wed 17 Sep 10:18
Quote:
Tad Allagash, Tue 16 Sept 22:39
Maybe life expectancy is a better measure. Cause of death is subjective, but age at death is accurately recorded and can’t be gamed.
Low life expectancy in an area is a pretty good indicator that there are high levels of drug/alcohol/suicide deaths.
Scotland still loses on life expectancy, though mainly because Glasgow drags the entire country down. If you exclude Glasgow then Scotland`s doing pretty well in terms of life expectancy, drug deaths and deprivation. When a Weegie slags the rest of Scotland you have to wonder what drugs they`re on. They keep trying to treat the "problem" that is Glasgow rather than solve it.
Glasgow is always going to reflect the extremes of the country more just because of it’s population compared to the rest of the country.
COYP
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Wed 17 Sep 13:43
Quote:
NMCmassive, Wed 17 Sept 11:44
Quote:
jake89, Wed 17 Sep 10:18
Quote:
Tad Allagash, Tue 16 Sept 22:39
Maybe life expectancy is a better measure. Cause of death is subjective, but age at death is accurately recorded and can’t be gamed.
Low life expectancy in an area is a pretty good indicator that there are high levels of drug/alcohol/suicide deaths.
Scotland still loses on life expectancy, though mainly because Glasgow drags the entire country down. If you exclude Glasgow then Scotland`s doing pretty well in terms of life expectancy, drug deaths and deprivation. When a Weegie slags the rest of Scotland you have to wonder what drugs they`re on. They keep trying to treat the "problem" that is Glasgow rather than solve it.
Glasgow is always going to reflect the extremes of the country more just because of it’s population compared to the rest of the country.
Well, only really the negative extremes. High drug and alcohol deaths, low life expectancy, poor health outcomes, higher than average unemployment levels. I`m sure there`s an interesting study to be done into it as there`s almost a pretty neat East-West split (there are exceptions like Dundee).
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Topic Originator: NMCmassive
Date: Wed 17 Sep 14:07
Quote:
jake89, Wed 17 Sep 13:43
Quote:
NMCmassive, Wed 17 Sept 11:44
Quote:
jake89, Wed 17 Sep 10:18
Quote:
Tad Allagash, Tue 16 Sept 22:39
Maybe life expectancy is a better measure. Cause of death is subjective, but age at death is accurately recorded and can’t be gamed.
Low life expectancy in an area is a pretty good indicator that there are high levels of drug/alcohol/suicide deaths.
Scotland still loses on life expectancy, though mainly because Glasgow drags the entire country down. If you exclude Glasgow then Scotland`s doing pretty well in terms of life expectancy, drug deaths and deprivation. When a Weegie slags the rest of Scotland you have to wonder what drugs they`re on. They keep trying to treat the "problem" that is Glasgow rather than solve it.
Glasgow is always going to reflect the extremes of the country more just because of it’s population compared to the rest of the country.
Well, only really the negative extremes. High drug and alcohol deaths, low life expectancy, poor health outcomes, higher than average unemployment levels. I`m sure there`s an interesting study to be done into it as there`s almost a pretty neat East-West split (there are exceptions like Dundee).
It’s not like the entire city is a slum. Drumchapel is right next to Bearsden.
Also I’m no being funny but I do go between both Glasgow and Edinburgh a fair bit and Glasgows a much better kept place than Edinburgh.(which I’d be blaming Edinburgh city council)
COYP
Post Edited (Wed 17 Sep 14:17)
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Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert
Date: Wed 17 Sep 14:23
The roads in Edinburgh are a disgrace!😡
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Topic Originator: NMCmassive
Date: Wed 17 Sep 14:40
Quote:
LochgellyAlbert, Wed 17 Sep 14:23
The roads in Edinburgh are a disgrace!😡
100%
Only thing in Edinburgh that can be relied on are the parking attendants
COYP
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Wed 17 Sep 15:39
The numbers speak for themselves.
Glasgow has:
Lowest life expectancy for men
Second lowest life expectancy for women
Highest drug death rate in Scotland
Second worst health outcomes in Scotland (take a bow Inverclyde)
Highest proportion of deprived areas (jointly shared with Inverclyde depending on the measure)
Second highest alcohol deaths (another "win" for Inverclyde)
Highest unemployment rate
As a city it has some stunning architecture and great people, but it undoubtedly has enormous issues that don`t seem to be getting better despite decades of getting higher government spend per person than it`s east coast neighbour.
And don`t start me on the state of Edinburgh`s roads.
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Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Wed 17 Sep 15:59
All of our cities are a shambles in one way or the other. The mismanagement from the councils is a joke. Too happy to accept planning permission for thousands of new, unaffordable housing, but cant afford to pay for the upkeep of the inner city centres.
And Edinburghs roads are the prime example - council would rather put money to pushing cars out and bringing in bikes than relaying pretty much every road in the city, as they are all like the surface of the moon.
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Wed 17 Sep 16:19
Quote:
Dave_1885, Wed 17 Sept 15:59
All of our cities are a shambles in one way or the other. The mismanagement from the councils is a joke. Too happy to accept planning permission for thousands of new, unaffordable housing, but cant afford to pay for the upkeep of the inner city centres.
And Edinburghs roads are the prime example - council would rather put money to pushing cars out and bringing in bikes than relaying pretty much every road in the city, as they are all like the surface of the moon.
That`s because council funding has effectively been cut. Inflation, aging population and increased social care needs are destroying council budgets...then there`s the payments on all those shiny PFI deals.
Edinburgh is also an area that receives less government funding (£300 less per person compared to Glasgow). The reason councils look at these active travel projects is they are paid for centrally. Look at Aberdour Road, for example. A completely unnecessary shared use path added right beside an existing cycle path. Fife Council just got half of a mile of pavement resurfaced for free though.
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Topic Originator: DBP
Date: Wed 17 Sep 17:46
Agree edinburgh is becoming more and more of a dump each year - can’t believe how crap it is now compared to when I lived there.
With my daughter now in Glasgow, I find myself going through regularly and much prefer it there out of the two
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Wed 17 Sep 18:37
Edinburgh is still a spectacular city but it`s massively accelerated it`s reputation as being a tourist city. Glasgow has always felt more European to me but the city centre, like everywhere, is in decline. Sauchiehall Street in particular is a depressing hellhole.
While it might not seem obviously linked, the state of town and city centres has an impact on people. Scotland is a pretty bleak place during the winter and Glasgow is ever worse as the west coast is always wetter/colder. On its own, living somewhere a bit miserable/depressing won`t result in health issues but it also doesn`t help. People often slag place standards as being nonsense but I`d certainly much rather live in a tree lined street with active travel routes than a 60s towerblock surrounded by red ash football pitches.
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Topic Originator: NMCmassive
Date: Wed 17 Sep 19:41
Quote:
jake89, Wed 17 Sep 18:37
Edinburgh is still a spectacular city but it`s massively accelerated it`s reputation as being a tourist city. Glasgow has always felt more European to me but the city centre, like everywhere, is in decline. Sauchiehall Street in particular is a depressing hellhole.
While it might not seem obviously linked, the state of town and city centres has an impact on people. Scotland is a pretty bleak place during the winter and Glasgow is ever worse as the west coast is always wetter/colder. On its own, living somewhere a bit miserable/depressing won`t result in health issues but it also doesn`t help. People often slag place standards as being nonsense but I`d certainly much rather live in a tree lined street with active travel routes than a 60s towerblock surrounded by red ash football pitches.
Need to remember Glasgow was the 2nd City of the empire. It was one of the richest cities in the world at that time, second to none in heavy industry. For working class people, life expectancies was still low though. The divide between the have’s and the have not’s was probably larger back then than it is today. (It does feel like we’re slipping backwards in that regard these days tho)
In terms of the tower blocks and architecture-that was the fashion at the time 🤷🏻♂️ Horrendous but everywhere got the same. Brutalism is brutal.
I definitely agree about standards though. I don’t think local standards will be addressed while Holyrood and Westminster take as much as they do and local councils get as little as they are.
From what I can see Holyrood and Westminster are basically black holes where money disappears and results are never seen.
COYP
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Topic Originator: desparado
Date: Wed 17 Sep 22:02
Wake up folks for gods sake.
Surprise Surprise, England has been manipulating Drug Deaths to make Scotland look bad for donkeys years ……despite the fact that legislation in this instance is……….Reserved…….to Westminster.
Covid deaths were reported differently between England and Scotland……..Waiting times at AnE are reported differently between England and Scotland……
It’s just political gamesmanship to show Scotland in a bad light , continually.
If the reporting was consistent then the difference between Scotland and England regarding drug deaths would be very similar, in fact there are stats out there now that show that this problem in England is now surpassing the problem in Scotland. Regardless we still have people who will make political gain, political point scoring over an issue that the Scottish Government have very little control over. They are absolute scum.
Our Uber Unionist on here…..Parboiled…..has on many occasions bumped his gums on this subject without being fully aware of the actual facts. The epitome of an ignoramus. He was probably down in London recently with a butchers apron draped over his shoulders.
Scotland has to escape from this absolute sh*t show that this unequal union is …..and soon or we are going to be engulfed in a torrent of English nationalism disguised as British nationalism…..both of which are……nasty…
If we don’t escape soon we are going to be well and truely fu..’k…d…
Post Edited (Wed 17 Sep 22:20)
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Topic Originator: red-star-par
Date: Wed 17 Sep 22:48
Great post, Desparado
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Wed 17 Sep 23:02
Quote:
desparado, Wed 17 Sept 22:02
Wake up folks for gods sake.
Surprise Surprise, England has been manipulating Drug Deaths to make Scotland look bad for donkeys years ……despite the fact that legislation in this instance is……….Reserved…….to Westminster.
Covid deaths were reported differently between England and Scotland……..Waiting times at AnE are reported differently between England and Scotland……
It’s just political gamesmanship to show Scotland in a bad light , continually.
If the reporting was consistent then the difference between Scotland and England regarding drug deaths would be very similar, in fact there are stats out there now that show that this problem in England is now surpassing the problem in Scotland. Regardless we still have people who will make political gain, political point scoring over an issue that the Scottish Government have very little control over. They are absolute scum.
Our Uber Unionist on here…..Parboiled…..has on many occasions bumped his gums on this subject without being fully aware of the actual facts. The epitome of an ignoramus. He was probably down in London recently with a butchers apron draped over his shoulders.
Scotland has to escape from this absolute sh*t show that this unequal union is …..and soon or we are going to be engulfed in a torrent of English nationalism disguised as British nationalism…..both of which are……nasty…
If we don’t escape soon we are going to be well and truely fu..’k…d…
It`s actually worse than this. Unionist parties in Scotland voted against significant reforms to social care in Holyrood. Guess what? https://www.thecanary.co/uk/analysis/2025/09/15/unite-continues-the-fight-against-point-of-no-return-in-scotlands-social-care-crisis/ Let`s hope idiots like Jackie Baillie, Sandesh Gulhane and Alex Cole-Hamilton don`t have any friends or family needing support. Weirdly, Labour support similar reforms in English social care. Weird that. Pricks the lot of them.
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Topic Originator: NMCmassive
Date: Thu 18 Sep 00:57
We all argue about left wing this and right wing that. I’ve got to be honest, I don’t think any of them give 2 hoots about us. I think the majority start with good intentions and great expectations but by the time their balls are tickled and their pockets are full, the game is on to remain in power
COYP
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Topic Originator: Tad Allagash
Date: Thu 18 Sep 22:49
‘manipulating Drug Deaths to make Scotland look bad’.
Who said it made us look bad? We’re Scottish, and we like our drugs.
We chose not to choose life - we chose something else….
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Thu 18 Sep 23:05
Speak for yourself!
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