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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Thu 20 Aug 16:49
I`m in two minds about this. It seems excessive but I don`t begrudge the First Minister of Scotland travelling business class. I`d actually be surprised if he or any government minister, UK or Holyrood travelled economy. Kudos to those who do but but as for the most senior elected politician in Scotland goes I`m not sure he should be flying long distance in window seat 144 row K.
Now is there an argument that they shouldn`t have been there in the first place? Maybe unless it tied in with other engagements that pressed the interests of Scotland.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe
Date: Thu 20 Aug 17:29
There was a business meeting while over there but I guess that will be seen as a smokescreen.
The First Minister is in a no win situation really.
On the one hand, he’s handsomely paid and could afford his own flight for what was effectively a trip to the football.
I believe Stephen Flynn paid his own costs for ticket and flights for example but I don’t think anyone should begrudge a first minister regardless of party representing his country.
I’m not as sure on the other hand about Maree Todd and Angus Robertson getting the same VIP treatment.
Zwei Pints Bier und ein Päckchen Chips bitte
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Thu 20 Aug 17:49
`I’m not as sure on the other hand about Maree Todd and Angus Robertson getting the same VIP treatment.`
Angus Robertson going along for the ride would be a scandal. He lost his seat at the May election.
Post Edited (Thu 20 Aug 18:12)
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Topic Originator: ipswichpar
Date: Thu 20 Aug 18:02
Maree Todd went economy didn`t she? It was the SPADs that went business class.
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Thu 20 Aug 18:29
SPADs Ipswich?
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Thu 20 Aug 18:47
SPecial ADvisers.
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Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Thu 20 Aug 19:00
Damned if he did, damned if he didn’t.
He’s the First Minister of Scotland. Scotland is, in its own rights, a sovereign footballing nation.
To claim he shouldn’t be there and it be paid for by the government/taxes is just typical behaviour of the media and their fan boys.
It’s a non story.
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Topic Originator: Tenruh
Date: Thu 20 Aug 19:11
Quote:
wee eck, Thu 20 Aug 17:49
`I’m not as sure on the other hand about Maree Todd and Angus Robertson getting the same VIP treatment.`
Angus Robertson going along for the ride would be a scandal. He lost his seat at the May election.
Maree Todd also list her constituency seat but managed to get to the top of the list so got re-elected by default, which in my opinion is wrong. If the electorate rejected you you shouldn`t be sneaking in on the list.
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Thu 20 Aug 19:21
Not sure what the relevance of that is to the topic, but are you saying we should abolish the `list system`? It`s supposed to make the make-up of MSPs at Holyrood more representative of the electorate. Some opposition MSPs have never won an election but have been there for years.
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Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe
Date: Thu 20 Aug 19:40
Quote:
wee eck, Thu 20 Aug 19:21
Not sure what the relevance of that is to the topic, but are you saying we should abolish the `list system`? It`s supposed to make the make-up of MSPs at Holyrood more representative of the electorate. Some opposition MSPs have never won an election but have been there for years.
It should be one term on the list and if you fail next time, then you are out.
Too many MSP’s know full well they won’t get elected but will be safely parachuted in with all the same perks and voting rights as the rest.
Zwei Pints Bier und ein Päckchen Chips bitte
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Topic Originator: BouncyPar
Date: Thu 20 Aug 19:53
Quote:
Dave_1885, Thu 20 Aug 19:00
Damned if he did, damned if he didn’t.
He’s the First Minister of Scotland. Scotland is, in its own rights, a sovereign footballing nation.
To claim he shouldn’t be there and it be paid for by the government/taxes is just typical behaviour of the media and their fan boys.
It’s a non story.
This 💯
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Topic Originator: P
Date: Thu 20 Aug 20:10
Was curious so set AI to work (only a cursory check for hallucinations) and the numbers of heads of state attending their countries games World Cup and matches attended given below.
I had to expand the criteria as only 8 heads of state attended a game involving their own country, host leaders had other obligations….
leader — country — match(es) attended:
1. Mark Carney — Canada — Canada v Qatar; World Cup Final
2. José Maria Neves — Cabo Verde — Cabo Verde v Spain
3. Andrej Plenković — Croatia — Croatia v Panama
4. Daniel Noboa — Ecuador — Ecuador v Côte d’Ivoire
5. Alix Didier Fils-Aimé — Haiti — Haiti v Scotland
6. King Abdullah II — Jordan — Jordan v Algeria
7. Claudia Sheinbaum — Mexico — World Cup Final
8. King Willem-Alexander — Netherlands — Netherlands v Sweden; Curaçao v Ecuador
9. Jonas Gahr Støre — Norway — Norway v Iraq
10. Santiago Peña — Paraguay — USA v Paraguay
11. António José Seguro — Portugal — Colombia v Portugal
12. John Swinney — Scotland — Haiti v Scotland
13. King Felipe VI — Spain — World Cup Final
14. Pedro Sánchez — Spain — World Cup Final
15. Guy Parmelin — Switzerland — Switzerland v Algeria
16. Donald Trump — United States — World Cup Final
17. King Philippe — Belgium — Belgium v Spain
17 leaders from 16 countries out of 48 countries
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Topic Originator: ipswichpar
Date: Thu 20 Aug 21:12
It would be equally interesting to find out how often Swinney goes abroad for work, and how many times he has gone to the US previously.
Or some understanding of the value of the meetings out there. Did it cover the £100k cost and the opportunity cost of them all going missing for a week?
This does feel like a convenient jolly.
Not sure what John Webster was doing out there.
There was one guy at my work identified as spending more than 100k in a year on expenses once. He got punted.
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Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Thu 20 Aug 21:18
I`d be concerned if he had travelled using a private passenger jet given to him by Kuwait without explanation then hid in a catering truck on the way home.
A head of government travelling business class (or first class even) on a scheduled flight seems pretty reasonable to me.
“The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”
Post Edited (Thu 20 Aug 21:18)
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Topic Originator: Jimmy riddell
Date: Thu 20 Aug 21:49
I don’t question his trip to the USA but I do the cost.
To pay almost £18k for a return business class flight suggests a last minute reservation on an already busy route to Boston. Even a last minute economy fare was in the thousands as there was little availability at that time. I know as I checked.
The issue is clearly one of lack of forward planning or a laissez faire attitude to public expenditure.
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Thu 20 Aug 22:01
I don`t recall any indication prior to the World Cup that JS had any interest in football unlike, say, Neil Gray or Stephen Flynn. No doubt he enjoyed his trip and the experience of being at the WC but it`s just as likely he saw it as opportunity to promote Scotland and its business. It would hardly be appropriate for the First Minister of Scotland to travel with the riffraff at such a busy time.
Post Edited (Thu 20 Aug 22:02)
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Thu 20 Aug 22:41
Politicians take the p*** tbh but isn`t it weird how they`ve not published how Starmer`s ticket cost?
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Topic Originator: parsmad68
Date: Thu 20 Aug 23:08
Divide & conquer.
Non story. The revenue alone from Americans coming to Scotland on the back of the World Cup wipes this out.
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Topic Originator: Jeffery
Date: Thu 20 Aug 23:34
It does seem poorly organised for the price to be that high. That being said, if the actual leader of a country can`t fly business or first class then who is it actually for.
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Topic Originator: DBA
Date: Thu 20 Aug 23:43
Quote:
Buspasspar, Thu 20 Aug 14:29
Should be made to pay every penny back .. disgusting
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ceqe385qen2o
So you don`t think the First Minister of Scotland should have tried to promote Scotland in America, during a World Cup where Scotland was getting plaudits for the people who travelled?
Seems like the perfect time to be going out, and trying to exploit that for our benefit.
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Topic Originator: ipswichpar
Date: Fri 21 Aug 05:45
Quote:
parsmad68, Thu 20 Aug 23:08
Divide & conquer.
Non story. The revenue alone from Americans coming to Scotland on the back of the World Cup wipes this out.
So they are all coming to see the MPs, or the MPs were the ones instigating the Boston Hoolie?
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Topic Originator: P
Date: Fri 21 Aug 08:26
Quote:
jake89, Thu 20 Aug 22:41
Politicians take the p*** tbh but isn`t it weird how they`ve not published how Starmer`s ticket cost?
Probably because he never went - presumably because he realised the optics were bad.
I’ve no problem with him travelling business class btw, if I travel to another continent with my work I wouldn’t do it if I wasn’t travelling business class. That said I would have a valid reason. No tourists are going to visit Scotland on the back of his visit, the TA would be a greater/only factor in that.
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Fri 21 Aug 08:39
Starmer, famous for having the common touch, realised the `optics` would be bad, having already been criticised for taking advantage of free suits and glasses when he first came to office. Being a keen football fan he was probably saving his visit for the Final.
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Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert
Date: Fri 21 Aug 10:08
Does the UK government not use the jet that Boris acquired, that cost millions in a lease deal and new paint job?
Called "Airfarce 1" at the time!
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Topic Originator: parsmad68
Date: Fri 21 Aug 16:46
Quote:
ipswichpar, Fri 21 Aug 05:45
Quote:
parsmad68, Thu 20 Aug 23:08
Divide & conquer.
Non story. The revenue alone from Americans coming to Scotland on the back of the World Cup wipes this out.
So they are all coming to see the MPs, or the MPs were the ones instigating the Boston Hoolie?
The Boston Hoolie happened organically. Nobody could have predicted prior to the World Cup what the supporters achieved during the month of June.
As there was interactions with political people within the USA from the Tartan Army in Boston and Providence, it totally made sense for Swinney to press the flesh of the political and business sectors. If he didn’t, he would have been criticised on a lost opportunity. So maybe he jumped on the Bandwagon, but the government also topped up the mental health fundraiser that we were involved in during Boston, so there was that prior to travelling. Either way, it is still a non story as he would have criticised either way.
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Fri 21 Aug 17:42
The real scandal is how much airlines charge for business class air tickets!
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Topic Originator: Tad Allagash
Date: Fri 21 Aug 17:49
Quote:
wee eck, Fri 21 Aug 08:39
Starmer, famous for having the common touch, realised the `optics` would be bad, having already been criticised for taking advantage of free suits and glasses when he first came to office. Being a keen football fan he was probably saving his visit for the Final.
Swinney should have saved his visit for the final.
A pretendy First Minister turning up for the first round makes us look like a ‘just happy to be there’ diddy country.
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Fri 21 Aug 18:12
I`m surprised you agree Scotland should be allowed representation at the World Cup if it has a `pretendy` parliament and is a `diddy` country.
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Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe
Date: Fri 21 Aug 18:48
Quote:
Tad Allagash, Fri 21 Aug 17:49
Quote:
wee eck, Fri 21 Aug 08:39
Starmer, famous for having the common touch, realised the `optics` would be bad, having already been criticised for taking advantage of free suits and glasses when he first came to office. Being a keen football fan he was probably saving his visit for the Final.
Swinney should have saved his visit for the final.
A pretendy First Minister turning up for the first round makes us look like a ‘just happy to be there’ diddy country.
Yeah Cap in hand mate. That suits your narrative of what it means to be Scottish.
Zwei Pints Bier und ein Päckchen Chips bitte
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Fri 21 Aug 22:53
I hadn`t realised this was reported as one of the lead stories on the BBC`s UK networked News at Six on Thursday!
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Topic Originator: NMCmassive
Date: Sat 22 Aug 11:12
Quote:
wee eck, Fri 21 Aug 22:53
I hadn`t realised this was reported as one of the lead stories on the BBC`s UK networked News at Six on Thursday!
It should be. SNP constantly taking the pi55 out of us - including you Eck. That’s your money that’s disappearing.
They always pay too much. They never get anything done on time and they’re consistently caught lying. £18,000 for 1 ticket… c’mon
You really can’t be trying to defend them anymore
COYP
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Sat 22 Aug 12:13
Well there will be receipts for the plane ticket NCM and if there isn`t Swinney will have to resign. If there is though then you just made an incorrect insinuation.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Sat 22 Aug 12:59
Deleted
Post Edited (Sat 22 Aug 13:01)
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Sat 22 Aug 13:13
How is it `disappearing` when we know exactly how it is spent?
And wasn`t the Queensferry Crossing delivered on time, possibly uniquely when it comes to the completion of public works projects in the UK?
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Sat 22 Aug 13:48
Like I said earlier I don`t really think it`s a big deal Swinney travelling business class. Took in a Scotland game.and did some promotional work for Scottish businesses. If he accepted into his personal bank account many millions of pounds from a foreign based crypto billionaire then I`d be more concerned. Fortunately for him and indeed the country he hasn`t been compromised in such a manner.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Sat 22 Aug 14:36
That Tw*t Kerr was caught sending in AI generated questions that cost the Scottish Government over £200k to reply to. Take a look at his expenses. Take a look at all their expenses.
£100k is steep but it`s a drop in the ocean. It`s also not headline news. The Permanent Secretary spent £10k going for lunch in Aberdour!
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Topic Originator: NMCmassive
Date: Sat 22 Aug 18:38
Quote:
wee eck, Sat 22 Aug 13:13
How is it `disappearing` when we know exactly how it is spent?
And wasn`t the Queensferry Crossing delivered on time, possibly uniquely when it comes to the completion of public works projects in the UK?
If you’re happy to keep giving your money to the SNP that’s on you.
Like if you want to say that’s the 1 thing they’ve done on time but transport Scotland in that instance were the client and it was outsourced to a conglomerate to build and transport Scotland had nothing other than design to do with it.
So basically the part they had anything to do with was the bit they’ve got wrong. They never updated the road network and the bridge doesn’t have enough road capacity so it’s difficult to cross without being stuck in traffic.
Great job that eh!
COYP
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Topic Originator: NMCmassive
Date: Sat 22 Aug 18:42
Quote:
The One Who Knocks, Sat 22 Aug 12:13
Well there will be receipts for the plane ticket NCM and if there isn`t Swinney will have to resign. If there is though then you just made an incorrect insinuation.
There was a receipt. For an impressive £17,893 on business class. I would have thought someone of your impressive intellect (that’s sarcasm btw) would have know that TWOK?
COYP
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Sat 22 Aug 19:54
"They never get anything done on time and they’re consistently caught lying. £18,000 for 1 ticket… c’mon"
See that would suggest, NCM, you think 18 grand for the ticket was a lie. Or maybe it was just the poor way you worded it.
No need for the sarcasm (which is the lowest form of wit by the way). Nobody that spends anytime reading these threads would be under any illusion that my intellect is impressive. It`s probably one of the few things you and I have in common.
Post Edited (Sat 22 Aug 19:55)
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Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy
Date: Sat 22 Aug 23:19
Absolutely should have been better planned for cost saving...
Faux outrage from the Yoons in spite of the MP expenses on duck houses etc over the years... priceless!
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Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert
Date: Sun 23 Aug 09:59
Not forgetting the Truss jaunt to Australia, or maybe the Speaker of the House who is surely sponsored by TUI!
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Topic Originator: veteraneastender
Date: Sun 23 Aug 14:24
The optics of this don’t look good - I have no problem with the First Minister going to the WC at public expense, however it’s the camp followers on the tab that bring the negative vibes.
As long as we don’t get any Michael Mathiewson type attempts at body swerving the issue.
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Sun 23 Aug 14:29
How do you know they were `camp`?
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Topic Originator: Tad Allagash
Date: Sun 23 Aug 15:00
Quote:
wee eck, Sun 23 Aug 14:29
How do you know they were `camp`?
They were dancing to ‘Yes sir, I can boogie’?
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Topic Originator: veteraneastender
Date: Sun 23 Aug 15:36
Quote:
wee eck, Sun 23 Aug 14:29
How do you know they were `camp`?
Their favourite brand of coffee 🤔
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Topic Originator: Hoolie
Date: Sun 23 Aug 20:32
If Swinney was going over to have meetings with the American government(don’t know why) and taking in a Scotland game as an ambassador for our country then fair enough…but fek me nearly 100k of our hard earned money to get him and his sidekicks there is ludicrous…and let’s remember he is using the working people’s money for this.
If him and his sidekicks came back and said we have agreed terms with America for blah blah saving£££ for import/export then fair enough but it’s obvious he and his management went on a jolly for the World Cup..
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Topic Originator: NMCmassive
Date: Sun 23 Aug 21:00
Quote:
The One Who Knocks, Sat 22 Aug 19:54
"They never get anything done on time and they’re consistently caught lying. £18,000 for 1 ticket… c’mon"
See that would suggest, NCM, you think 18 grand for the ticket was a lie. Or maybe it was just the poor way you worded it.
No need for the sarcasm (which is the lowest form of wit by the way). Nobody that spends anytime reading these threads would be under any illusion that my intellect is impressive. It`s probably one of the few things you and I have in common.
TWOK every time we have any interaction you try and twist words or put words in my mouth. Why? Is it the truth or intelligence that you’re struggling with?
COYP
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Topic Originator: NMCmassive
Date: Sun 23 Aug 21:02
Quote:
hurricane_jimmy, Sat 22 Aug 23:19
Absolutely should have been better planned for cost saving...
Faux outrage from the Yoons in spite of the MP expenses on duck houses etc over the years... priceless!
I don’t understand why we’re making a difference between Holyrood and Westminster. They’re both guilty of it.
The argument that Holyrood is being held to a higher standard has been blown well out the water by the SNP since Sturgeon got control.
COYP
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Sun 23 Aug 22:32
But Sturgeon is no longer involved in the SNP. There aren`t half some confusing arguments made on here. A simple soul like me finds it very confusing.
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Sun 23 Aug 23:08
NCM, I can`t twist or put words in your mouth when they are all written by yourself but I`ll be no longer have any further interaction with you from now on so don`t worry.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: NMCmassive
Date: Mon 24 Aug 15:40
Quote:
The One Who Knocks, Sun 23 Aug 23:08
NCM, I can`t twist or put words in your mouth when they are all written by yourself but I`ll be no longer have any further interaction with you from now on so don`t worry.
Suits me TWOK 👍🏻 no need to try and stop you from making stuff up
COYP
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Topic Originator: NMCmassive
Date: Mon 24 Aug 15:42
Quote:
wee eck, Sun 23 Aug 22:32
But Sturgeon is no longer involved in the SNP. There aren`t half some confusing arguments made on here. A simple soul like me finds it very confusing.
If you can’t understand from Sturgeons reign until now… I don’t know how to explain it to you. My 9year old understands that concept
COYP
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Mon 24 Aug 15:47
I don`t seem to be the only one on here who has trouble understanding you sometimes so I`m opting out too.
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Topic Originator: NMCmassive
Date: Mon 24 Aug 18:58
Quote:
wee eck, Mon 24 Aug 15:47
I don`t seem to be the only one on here who has trouble understanding you sometimes so I`m opting out too.
I know you and TWOK struggle when people have a point counter to your own.
You 2 are literally doing the meme
COYP
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Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Tue 25 Aug 15:36
There`s no point using logic with you NMC, you ignore it and instead concentrate on any perceived slights from people in the thread so that you can act the victim; it`s all outrage and innuendo. Mainly brought about due to the knots of hypocrisy you`ve tied yourself into.
So far you have failed to engage with the premise that many (the vast majority) in the thread have presented their view: that it is perfectly fine for the head of a nation`s government to attend a sporting event which is garnering his nation a great deal of diplomatic favour.
Does it not seem reasonable to seize on that opportunity and hold meetings with local politicians to ensure that the travel and trade resources etc are in place to beat benefit from this unforseen opportunity?
Do you disagree that the potential trade and tourism gains for the Scottish economy from such visits could dwarf the cost of the trip?
And why shouldn`t the head of government of said nation travel business class if they decide not to use private travel, which comes with much greater expense?
Instead of answering the many counterarguments presented to you, you have been tenacious in your pursuit of a poster who interpreted one of your posts, quite reasonably given the way you worded it, in a way that you didn`t like. Seeking victimhood once more when most reasonable folk in that situation would apologise for the ambiguity and state their intended meaning.
When you do not debate in good faith, there`s very little point in debating with you.
“The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”
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Topic Originator: Indiapar1
Date: Tue 25 Aug 20:30
My assessment is that it was probably strategically useful but not yet demonstrably good value for money. The visit helped sustain the whisky campaign and produced potentially useful relationships, but no signed inward-investment agreement, quantified new jobs, export contract or measurable return has yet been published. The tariff result would vastly outweigh the visit’s cost if Swinney’s intervention materially influenced it, but the available evidence cannot isolate or quantify that contribution.
I suspect that it was an opportunity to go to the footbaĺl and tag on a few visits to justify it.
Obviously he wouldnt go alone and would have (hopefully) some sort of trade and industry expertise in tow. My experoence of working for many years internationally is that the deals are done business to business based on sound commercial and financial considerations and politicians go along to cut the ribbon given they generally are unlikely to have any real expertise in the particukar area.
Business flights I would have thought would be based on Scottish Government policy and business case. It would be useful to see if any tangible benefit in terms of jobs or investment came from the visit, but that may take time to materialise (if at all).
G Wardrope
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Topic Originator: NMCmassive
Date: Tue 25 Aug 21:35
Quote:
Wotsit, Tue 25 Aug 15:36
There`s no point using logic with you NMC, you ignore it and instead concentrate on any perceived slights from people in the thread so that you can act the victim; it`s all outrage and innuendo. Mainly brought about due to the knots of hypocrisy you`ve tied yourself into.
So far you have failed to engage with the premise that many (the vast majority) in the thread have presented their view: that it is perfectly fine for the head of a nation`s government to attend a sporting event which is garnering his nation a great deal of diplomatic favour.
Does it not seem reasonable to seize on that opportunity and hold meetings with local politicians to ensure that the travel and trade resources etc are in place to beat benefit from this unforseen opportunity?
Do you disagree that the potential trade and tourism gains for the Scottish economy from such visits could dwarf the cost of the trip?
And why shouldn`t the head of government of said nation travel business class if they decide not to use private travel, which comes with much greater expense?
Instead of answering the many counterarguments presented to you, you have been tenacious in your pursuit of a poster who interpreted one of your posts, quite reasonably given the way you worded it, in a way that you didn`t like. Seeking victimhood once more when most reasonable folk in that situation would apologise for the ambiguity and state their intended meaning.
When you do not debate in good faith, there`s very little point in debating with you.
You’ve wrote all that then finished it off with something about a debate in good faith. All I’ve said so far is £18k is a ridiculous amount to spend on a business class flight that normally costs £4k ish. That since Sturgeon has been in power the SNP’s reputation has taken a nose dive.
Is any of that untrue? Has there been any counter point to that, that’s provably true?
Everything else you’ve wrote about is conjecture. Have I said he shouldn’t have gone? Have I said he should have gone cattle class?
COYP
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Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe
Date: Wed 26 Aug 00:28
I think part of the issue is Sturgeon wouldn’t have gone as she clearly hates football but Swinney does like it and it was our first WC finals in 28 years.
The other issue is Kier Starmer didn’t go but planned for The Final if England got there.
I don’t mind him going there business class at our expense to be honest.
He’s representing our country whether you like his politics or not.
Zwei Pints Bier und ein Päckchen Chips bitte
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Topic Originator: Indiapar1
Date: Wed 26 Aug 08:48
If Swinneys flight cost was 18k for him alone thats more in the realms of 1st class not buiness class
G Wardrope
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