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 Scottish Education
Topic Originator: renegade master  
Date:   Sun 23 Feb 23:21

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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Mon 24 Feb 04:17

"We are now the the worst. Please discuss?"

No we aren't.

The link you copy and pasted from wiki relates to tertiary education. Tertiary education is post high school education.

You've then quoted our recent Higher results that don't correlate with tertiary education results.

The results for 2019s Highers were published in August 2019 without the same level of hysteria :

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-49236257

The fact that the author of the recent BBC article chose to headline the article with largest % drop for a subject rather than the overall % drop which is far smaller (1.9%) is interesting. It's almost like they want to overstate the drop isn't it?

One subject saw a 33% increase in its pass rate. Should we highlight that and say our education system is amazaballs?

Here is a list of Higher Pass rates going back to 2006:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/326717/scotland-attainment-statistics-higher-pass-rate/

It looks like the SNP have managed to deliver a net improvement to the pass rate since they came into power.

That is against having its discretionary budget cut:

https://fullfact.org/scotland/has-scottish-government-budget-increased-or-decreased-2010/

Imagine what they could have done with a competent Westminster Government implementing decent economic policies to provide proper funding for the UKs services?
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Mon 24 Feb 08:11

But London, facts v like that don't support the peddled and growing narrative that our education system is failing, our NHS is failing, ergo the SNP are failing in gov. which means that we're obviously not capable of running our own country and we need to vote them out (and thus remain dependent on the rest of the UK to keep us warm and safe)
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Mon 24 Feb 11:39

There are lies, dammed lies and statistics. You can twist them as you like .

I have a child who is in first year at high school. She has a much wider curriculum than I enjoyed when I was at school. She is doing very well and her recent report card is excellent. There are a couple of teachers she doesn't like as much but that's always going to be the case.

I also have a couple of older children who left school about 15 years ago. Their school was terrible in comparison and they were not well supported at school.
In my opinion in the last 15 years things have improved dramatically.
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: Tenruh  
Date:   Mon 24 Feb 11:39

Looking like this has backfired on you RM, discuss...
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Mon 24 Feb 12:52

While the overall higher pass rate has only declined by 1.9% on average that includes one subject (Chinese languages) that has increased by a massive 33%. I'd like to know the reasons behind such an increase in that subject. Is that subject being studied by capable pupils who would have in the past studied French and that might explain the 10% drop in that subject? Either way that 33% somewhat distorts the average surely?
There does appear to have been a dip in performance. Now it takes more than a year to create a trend so it's too soon to draw any conclusions.



And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed

Post Edited (Mon 24 Feb 12:53)
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Mon 24 Feb 13:28

The overall % wont be distorted by the 33% increase in Chinese as the overall % is still calculated using the total number of exams taken by students.

The dramatic increase in passes for Chinese probably comes from the comparatively low number of students that studied it previously. If you had one person pass the year before then you have two people the next year then you've delivered a 100% improvement. Sounds flashy until you realise it's one more person. The fact there has been a few years of small decreases in attainment certainly needs to be looked at but it could be that's the generation at the peak of the austerity cuts coming through the system 4/5 years later. It also might not be as I have no evidence to base that on which is why you need proper review mechanisms to ensure your standards aren't on a downward trajectory.
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Mon 24 Feb 15:58

If you see the facilities, computers etc. in the "red" classroom at QAHS you might realise why Chinese Language levels are rising.
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Mon 24 Feb 16:32

I think it's great... My oldest is pretty much fluent in mandarin, has been to China several times and now teaches economics and English at one of Beijing best universities...
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Mon 24 Feb 16:34

Considering it's an economic giant and its influence is increasing all the time it's probably a sensible career move for the future.
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Mon 24 Feb 16:50

The UK unionists are now turning their fire on Sturgeon in anticipation of a constitutional conflict further up the road. Sturgeon used to be a mere footnote in the UK media but she is now being given the Corbyn/Meghan treatment on a daily basis. Once the Salmond trial gets underway there should be plenty of salacious details to keep the Natbashers at their keyboards. The background music to all of this will be SNP ‘failures’ in Education, Health Care and Policing, although most of us realised a long time ago that manipulating statistics in these areas is part and parcel of tribal politics.

As regards education I am always perplexed why politicians make it a ‘priority’ since there are no votes in education. Take these three myths.

1. The Nokia Myth. If Scotland spends more on education like Finland does then we will rear a high technology, high paid workforce. Except we probably won’t, because a rise in education spending does not automatically trigger a rise in GNP. Countries normally invest in education after increased economic performance and that is probably a good long term plan, but it is unlikely to produce any short term advantages.

2. Better education produces more rounded, engaged citizens. It’s hard to argue with this noble concept of education, but any government going down this line is asking for trouble. After university grants were made widely available these better educated, engaged students marched for CND against nuclear weapons, set up a civil rights movement in Northern Ireland that indirectly led to civil war, highlighted the American involvement in the Vietnam War and blacklisted apartheid South Africa for good measure. It took high unemployment and student loans to dampen that lot down and make life a bit easier for the parties in power.

3. The Social Engineering Myth. Politicians rarely distinguish between instruction and education. They assume that if they promote good causes as part of a social education programme then such evils as racism, sexism, sectarianism and unhealthy eating and drinking will simply fade away. Unfortunately pupils are well able to absorb all these messages, maybe even pass the odd exam relating to them, then blithely carry on as their parents and grandparents have done before them.
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Mon 24 Feb 17:49

Sammer that is a gold star on your homework book :-)
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: Andrew283  
Date:   Mon 24 Feb 19:05

This thread has turned out exactly as intended hahaha
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: donj  
Date:   Mon 24 Feb 19:21

Hate to break it to you but you never started the thread.ha ha
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: Andrew283  
Date:   Tue 25 Feb 00:33

My post was clearly sarcastic aimed at Renegades crusade against the SNP
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Tue 25 Feb 08:48

I can't help thinking that basing the success or failure on the % of exam passes is seriously flawed. I sat my Highers in 1970. I can categorically state that today's 17 year olds would struggle hopelessly to pass these same Highers in English, Maths, Physics and Chemistry, not because I''m Brain of Britain but because these examinations have been made consistently easier during the subsequent 50 years.

As a secondary school teacher, I witnessed several changes in which the more difficult content was removed from H and pushed up into Sixth Year Studies or Advanced Higher and replaced by content first from O Grade and later Standard Grade subjects. So the fact that more pupils can now pass these exams is not in any way reliable evidence that education is better or worse.

I'm more concerned at the direction education has taken in our primary schools. 5-14 was ditched in favour of Curriculum for Excellence, which sounds very grand but children are trying to learn across a curriculum which is far too wide. As a result not enough hours are allocated to the basics ( what used to be known as the 3 Rs) and we have many children in P7 who are semi literate - something I regularly see when I read the evaluations they complete after a Pars visit. By way of comparison, when I was in P7, we were expected to analyse compound sentences, picking out the principal clause and identifying subordinate adverbial or adjectival clauses.



Not your average Sunday League player.


Post Edited (Wed 26 Feb 08:29)
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Tue 25 Feb 19:38

I’ve attached my primary 7 reports from the archive to make a few points. (Clearly teachers back then were totally incapable of recognising genius when it was right in front of them.)



The biggest difference is that there was no requirement then to teach either RME, Health and wellbeing or Technology as discrete subjects. Moral issues were considered a private matter, not one that the state should influence directly through instruction. If you wanted religion there was a church up the road. We got P.E,, outdoor games and a third of a pint of milk each day to cover Health and Wellbeing. Technology was limited to Handcraft (mostly cutting card and papier mache) with Needlework for the girls. The Headmaster of my school was a former Science teacher who campaigned to introduce the subject at primary level, but on my report it is merely tagged on at the bottom as an afterthought. I would imagine funding for Technology and Science was an issue for primary schools and probably still is. Subjects such as Handwriting and Spelling were cheaper to teach although they will surely soon become redundant in the era of the spellcheck computer.

The CfE is more ambitious and wants to attend to a pupil’s spiritual and emotional development. That’s a worthy aim but since these areas could never really be tested they will have little credibility within either the classroom or the staffroom. Maybe they’re better learned from good adult behaviour, such as when teachers at primary wangled things so that any extra milk in the crate went to those who had probably had no breakfast that morning. There were a few mutterings about unfairness but we were being taught that being fair is about more than being able to count. At secondary level moral issues are bound to crop up and be discussed in the context of Literature, Science and the Humanities so I don’t see much value in making them discrete areas for study.

Whatever the curriculum, any teacher has to work within his or her own culture. It’s all very well CfE declaring its intention to produce confident citizens but that is an easier prospect in a Scandinavian country than in the UK where some politicians snigger about ‘bog standard comprehensives’ and others wring their hands over ‘the attainment gap.’ Likewise, teaching a foreign language was never an easy number in secondaries- ask JK Rowling- and it won’t have got any easier post Brexit.
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Tue 25 Feb 20:20

Not clear on how we measure educational performance when each country uses a different curriculum? How do the people measuring decide what to compare?

I suspect an issue nowadays is the differing professions. We've moved on from labourers, carpenters, doctors, solicitors etc to now having so many roles. Even the much laughed at "Influencer" requires skills in marketing, communication and negotiation.
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: donj  
Date:   Tue 25 Feb 21:04

Amazed you still have that Sammer.Only things like that I found were my ONC and HNC papers but faded beyond reading.
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: back oh the net  
Date:   Wed 26 Feb 20:17

Aw dear RM looks like you have been used like a cheap hoor doon leith docks again

Come on ye pars ⚽️
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: renegade master  
Date:   Wed 26 Feb 20:38

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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Thu 27 Feb 03:02

Quote:

renegade master, Wed 26 Feb 20:38

Not at all a few informed comments, the usual NATS defending everything admitting nothing. The facts are there that Scotland's education levels have slid (confirmed by GG Riva a teacher).

When your own education secretary calls for an investigation into why educations levels are falling you can't really argue, but you have which does prove a point!

An ostrich only sees what is going on when it lifts its head out of the sand. It's the same for a NAT supporter they need to stop kissing NS's er$e to see what is going on!


As stated I have to go by personal experience with education. As far as I see my daughter is currently getting a far wider and more informed education than my two sons did 15 years ago.

This is not from an ostrich who sees no wrong with SNP. This is my first hand experience.

I'm willing to admit that this may not be the case all over Scotland but I can only comment on my experience.

Post Edited (Thu 27 Feb 03:03)
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy  
Date:   Thu 27 Feb 07:25

RM - I'm also a qualified teacher, but have not taught in Scotland, although I did some placement experience in Dunfermline. I took a year out of my Science activities and qualified at Durham in England and returned to Sweden.

To a degree, many of the issues in Scotland seem to be a result of repeated footering with the structure of the curriculum. The Scottish curriculum is generally better and more broad than a number of other places. Unquestionably though, the SNP tried to fix a system that wasn't broken - the simple thing would have been to get rid of the Standard Grades and use the Int1 for S2, Int2 across S3/S4, Highers in S5 and Adv Highers in S6. That said, I'd say that schools need further digitisation using specialist software that can cut a lot of teachers' admin work and let them actually focus on helping kids.

I'd say that we need to bring foreign language training standards up at a younger age with kids. I think it was GG Riva who raised the point about identifying subordinate clauses etc in English at school. I remember my Higher English (2007/08) where we had absolutely no factual writing assessed component and had to write a load of bumph about shakespeare and poetry, which I think was shocking. If you introduce say French, Spanish or German (perhaps even Gaelic as Irish have done) into primary schools and use that I think you would find literacy levels would increase quite dramatically - learning a second language helps massively with understanding the mother tongue and learning another language. At least that's what I found with Swedish.

As is the case in a number of places across the public sector, there has been an obsession about "teacher numbers" (as with Police number etc), which is all well and good but support staff have been forgotten. Teaching assistants are vital in primary schools to get literacy and numeracy levels up. In High schools as well, they are vital to helping lower ability students. Perhaps a solution would be that prospective teacher trainees have spend one/two years as teaching assistants (fully paid of course). Either that or the PGDE training could be extended to two years with 50%-hours as a teaching assistant 50% as a full teacher on a 50% salary? This could ensure a steady stream of teaching assistants and better help new teachers understand less able students' needs.

Our universities are still performing well and the Four Ancients are world-respected institutions. If I'm not mistaken though Universities are still receiving only £1820 per Scottish/EU student per year when inflation should have pushed that up to nearer £2750 by now over the time that the SNP have been in power. I'd argue that this figure should also be subject specific as certain subjects such as Chemistry, Bio Sciences, Physics, Engineering, Medicine etc cost more for universities to run. Personally, I would also advocate that Scotland moves to the Bologna System (3 Year Bachelors, 2 Years Masters with the ECTS Credit system) to bring us into line with the rest of the continent. Conversely, the SNP did introduce tuition free university which should remain in place, while Labour and the Tories in England have introduced Fees and increased them dramatically respectively. My experience at Durham compared to Aberdeen, Heidelberg, Leiden and Lund (all which were tuition free) certainly did not warrant the ridiculous tuition fees.

That said, the obsessive focus on getting kids to university has to stop and we need to look at ways to better teach trades. The Australian TAFE system works really well for vocational training from what I understand. Perhaps Regional "Trade colleges" is a solution and we could create one or more of these in every council area, depending on population.

I'll also say that you most definitely do not want the English system brought up into Scotland. Part of my training was in Middlesbrough with a Trust called "Outwood Grange" who have a number of schools around the North East. Their idea of behaviour management was to have senior management walk around the school and pull kids out of the class and scream in their faces. A number of these senior managers had no teaching experience, but were on considerably higher salaries than the classroom teachers when they essentially walked around thinking they were Billy Big Bawz. The Chief Exec of this Trust was on the princely sum of £184k per year. They were obsessed with statistics rather than actually focussing on getting kids motivated and learning. Being England of course, a society obsessed with heirarchy and status, the big thing was the OFSTED rating. This school I've just described was rated as "Good" and going for "Outstanding" by OFSTED, but if I can compare this to the school I had my first placement in - which was "Requires Improvement" - I'd say that the mentorship I received and quality of teaching I saw was far superior in the lower-rated school. There are also no incrementals in England and you generally have to apply for your salary increases with a portfolio, which discourages people from staying in teaching too long. It also creates a situation where experienced teachers struggle to find permanent contracts because they are seen as "too expensive". Put on top of that, the masses of public money disappearing to pay exorbitant salaries of Trust execs - at the expense of teaching staff - then you can see a badly broken situation.

Moral of the story is that statistics ain't the simple truth and the Tories are on a hiding to nothing if they are trying to exemplify the English system.

To say though that Scotland is now one of the worse education systems was simply you fishing for a response to stir it up, so lets not pretend otherwise.
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Thu 27 Feb 07:48

<<Amazed you still have that Sammer.Only things like that I found were my ONC and HNC papers but faded beyond reading.>>


Somewhere in my home library - goodness knows where - is my first published work: a poem in the school magazine from 1968.

A good Scottish education has done most of us no harm at all.

:)
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: renegade master  
Date:   Thu 27 Feb 08:54

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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Thu 27 Feb 09:17

<<That said, the obsessive focus on getting kids to university has to stop and we need to look at ways to better teach trades. The Australian TAFE system works well for vocational training from what I understand. Perhaps Regional "Trade colleges" is a solution and we could create one or more of these in every council area, depending on population. >>

As usual, Hurricane Jimmy has produced a thoughtful and intelligent assessment of an issue; in this case, education.

I thought it worth responding to his comments on the Australian TAFE (Technical & Further Education) system.

When instituted TAFE provided an excellent supplement to the university system, offering sub-university level students a route to ongoing education and direct training for trades. However, as time went on, the TAFEs got ambitious, and in truth a little ahead of themselves. They introduced degree courses and before we knew it, they were seeking recognition as full-blown universities.

Politics being what it is, saw many of them get accepted as universities when, realistically, they were far below the international standards one would expect of university institutions.

Following these moves, right-leaning federal and state governments sought liberalisation of the TAFE sector, effectively privatising it.

This allowed a swathe of highly questionable training bodies to sweep up the public money provided through student grants in exchange for very poor quality training. It was/still is to a lesser extent, a scandal; most of it has been exposed, but what remains is a pale shadow of the globally-admired TAFE system that existed in Australian 10 years ago.

Linked to this has been the arrival of shonky (largely Indian and Chinese) training colleges offering foreign students an easy opportunity to obtain student visas while ostensibly undergoing training in Australian cities. Sadly, far too many of these have been exposed as fake immigration scams. Many offer no training at all and operate as fronts for sex trafficking and restaurants seeking slave-labour wage level employees.

Those that do offer training are offering courses such as hairdressing, in which we have a plentiful labour surplus and in which foreign students could be more than adequately trained back home in their countries of origin.

So I suppose the moral of this tale is, HJ, be careful what you wish for...
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Thu 27 Feb 11:42

Since I've been name checked several times by RM, I'd like to clarify my observations:-

1. Today's pupils are, on average, less well versed in the 3Rs than those of my generation. (I believe there has been a gradual erosion during the past 50 years or so.)

2. Conversely, today's pupils are far more savvy in ICT skills than those of yesteryear.

3. Today's pupils are taught across a more wide-ranging curriculum, consequently spending less hours on specific areas such as literacy and numeracy.

4. Content in almost every subject in secondary schools has been diluted over the years and consequently external examinations are easier to pass as there is less subject matter to learn and understand.

5. The learning experience in primary schools varies greatly from one school to another. This can be down to a variety of factors, such as the class teacher's experience and classroom management, the level of leadership and support offered by the head teacher, the social mix of the class etc.

I should like to stress that my experience of the Pars school visits I've been involved in since 2014, has ranged from positive to extremely positive, but then we are delivering a lesson using real, live, professional footballers - an educational tool primary teachers can only dream about.

Some teachers are often so fearful that their pupils are going to embarrass them by behaving badly, that they often lecture their class or apologise to me beforehand. In every case, their fears have proved unfounded, but it's easy to surmise that normal lessons don't always run so smoothly.

"The eldest despite his problems left school with 5 Advanced Highers, (Maths, English, Physics, Biology and Chemistry} 7 Highers and 8 Standards. Yet didn't have to work overly hard to achieve these in fact he did no revision whatsoever.''

Your lad is either a budding Einstein, or proof that my assertion that today's exams easier is correct. In my day, 4 Highers and 2 SYS or Adv Highers was very good going.... :-)



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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: Rastapari  
Date:   Thu 27 Feb 13:19

RM could you not just own being a reviled Tory and list the good things your beloved rich posh boys do instead of "everyone else" bad?

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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Thu 27 Feb 14:19

Quote:

Rastapari, Thu 27 Feb 13:19

RM could you not just own being a reviled Tory and list the good things your beloved rich posh boys do instead of "everyone else" bad?


No
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: renegade master  
Date:   Thu 27 Feb 19:28

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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Thu 27 Feb 20:03

Don't private schools teach the same curriculum and sit the same exams?
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Thu 27 Feb 20:43

That’s a lot of talent going to waste so I hope your son can find a path back into a more productive life.

Maybe the SNP could be making a better fist of things but schools don’t exist in a vacuum and two of the problems you mentioned- bad behaviour in the classroom and slow progress in subjects- have long been an issue in Scottish education. In the past the incorrigible were sent to special schools while the merely disruptive were belted into semi-obedience, neither of which are realistic options at present. In the UK those at the bottom can either ‘stick in’ at school and try to improve their lot- or stick two fingers up instead. There have always been plenty who chose the latter, even in the days of the belt.

It’s a similar story with slow progress. I’m sure when your daughters come home with reading homework (I hope that still exists) you will spend time listening so they will take a pride in doing it well. For them progress will be fast but that is not happening in some other homes so the classroom teacher will have to start dividing the pupils into ability groups. These groups tend to become self-reinforcing and this limits one of the most effective teaching tools: the whole class lesson.

If you can afford to pay for private education then these two problems will largely disappear but the society which contains them will not disappear and that is likely where your daughters will be making their life. What would you like to see the SNP government do, in both the short and long term, to improve matters?
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: Aylesbury_Par  
Date:   Thu 27 Feb 22:23

Quote:

renegade master, Thu 27 Feb 19:28


I was SNP voter at this time.


Jokes forum for this pihs!!
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: renegade master  
Date:   Thu 27 Feb 23:18

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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Fri 28 Feb 07:19

''Yes GG all the ability!

Highest Grades ever achieved in Biology at BHS. Pupil of the year in that subject.

Educated at Hill of Beath and Beath High School after being expelled from Crossgates in 1st year as he was described as naughty and disruptive. He actually had ADHD and the education system along with our support and a term at Lumphinans special support unit and Dr Steer sorted his medication to allow him to use his IQ of 163.

I was SNP voter at this time.

Despite being offered 5 University places including a Scholarship in America, he went to Edinburgh on a 9 year Masters studying Bio medical science and infectious diseases course.

Unfortunately after 3 years he got mixed up with the wrong crowd, drink, drugs, suicide attempts ruined any chance of being a scientist. He is currently in the deepest backwater in Wales slowly rebuilding his life.

We were always warned that this could be the outcome if he stopped his medication which at 18 and living away was his choice.

Like I said all the rest of our children are in the same schools and education system and the changes of standards and teaching ability are a lot inferior. Hence why I said I have 1st hand experience of the exact same schools over about the last 18 years.

I must admit however I am considering private school for our 2 youngest if the education situation deteriorates much more this will be given higher consideration.''

That's a shame the way your lad's education has turned out. Thanks for sharing with us. Some of it vindicates what I said that different schools offer different experiences. Your son obviously had a much happier time at Hill of Beath. Perhaps if his ADHD had been diagnosed earlier, he would have been had an equally positive education at Crossgates?

Private education is your prerogative, but sammer has some wise words on the subject. I think he and I both attended a junior secondary school from age 12 and were not handicapped as a result, eventually sitting Highers and going on to a university education. I have a brother who lives in Edinburgh and he worked long hours to finance his two kids private education. He said that 30% of Edinburgh children attend private schools, meaning that the remainder is a ''rump'' of pupils, many of whom have a poor attitude to school, which makes the learning environment difficult for those who want to succeed. I suggested to him that it would be cheaper for him to move back to Dunfermline and have his kids educated in a state run school here, but he decided against it.

He has two smashing kids who have both completed their education now, but I'm not convinced that his sacrifices have given them any significant advantages over mine, who had a comprehensive education in Dunfermline, before graduating from Glasgow Uni.



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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Fri 28 Feb 07:21

Are GCSEs any better? I recall them being easier than Standard Grades.
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: renegade master  
Date:   Fri 28 Feb 17:48

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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Fri 28 Feb 18:30

It'd be interesting to see primary school performances by area. Not one for league tables but I'd be interested in seeing the effects of different approaches. For example, I know Fife primaries encourage doing cursive writing from P1 whereas in Edinburgh and the Lothians they don't.
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Fri 28 Feb 19:11

Quote:

jake89, Fri 28 Feb 18:30

It'd be interesting to see primary school performances by area. Not one for league tables but I'd be interested in seeing the effects of different approaches. For example, I know Fife primaries encourage doing cursive writing from P1 whereas in Edinburgh and the Lothians they don't.


Even within the same areas using an identical approach, there are marked differences, Jake. Much of it is down to parental involvement, imo. It's a cliche but parents are the child's first educators. In areas of high social deprivation, parental input appears to be minimal or non-existent and their children are not stimulated and consequently their learning is slow. Standards and expectations in these schools are therefore much lower and is often exacerbated by poor attitude and behaviour. Morale among staff in these schools is understandably low and I know of several teachers who have resigned their posts to pursue alternative careers. Others are sticking gamely to their vocation, but are frustrated by the changes which have been introduced, requiring them to carry out a variety of assessments and administrative tasks, leaving less and less time for teaching.....



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: parsfan  
Date:   Fri 28 Feb 21:27

Quote:

jake89, Fri 28 Feb 18:30
For example, I know Fife primaries encourage doing cursive writing from P1 whereas in Edinburgh and the Lothians they don't.


They do at my kids' primary in Edinburgh.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The universe is ruled by chance and indifference



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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Fri 28 Feb 22:23

Quote:

parsfan, Fri 28 Feb 21:27

Quote:

jake89, Fri 28 Feb 18:30
For example, I know Fife primaries encourage doing cursive writing from P1 whereas in Edinburgh and the Lothians they don't.


They do at my kids' primary in Edinburgh.


My daughter was doing this in P3 in Aberdeen.
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: renegade master  
Date:   Fri 28 Feb 22:55

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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Fri 28 Feb 23:00

If Amazon paid their fair share of taxes maybe more could be invested in education.
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: renegade master  
Date:   Fri 28 Feb 23:06

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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Fri 28 Feb 23:38

RM, how do you know the Amazon were super critical of the school?

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: renegade master  
Date:   Fri 28 Feb 23:45

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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Fri 28 Feb 23:47

So someone from Amazon told your 8 year old daughter that they were super critical of the school that she attends?

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: renegade master  
Date:   Fri 28 Feb 23:49

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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Fri 28 Feb 23:51

Apart from having a son in primary school none. I'm actually sort of on your side in this debate in as much as your opponents on this thread are stubbornly refusing to admit that anything could be done better but your Amazon story just doesn't quite strike the ear right.

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: renegade master  
Date:   Fri 28 Feb 23:52

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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: renegade master  
Date:   Fri 28 Feb 23:57

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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Sat 29 Feb 01:20

It’s hard to read that last comment as anything other than snobbery. Why did you choose a ‘miners conference’ to make the point? For someone who has been whining about low standards in education your own spelling and use of the apostrophe are often quite sloppy.

I don’t know what he was like at quantum physics but there was one lad, whose father had been a miner, who did rather well at Beath High School. Sir James Black certainly knew a lot about Chemistry and was awarded the Nobel Prize in 1988. No student grants back then though in the 1940s, so he had to move overseas for a few years in order to acquire enough money to pay back his debts. We’re lucky he came back.
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: renegade master  
Date:   Sat 29 Feb 01:57

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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Sat 29 Feb 10:13

Perhaps Duloch Primary is different, but all the kids were taught coding in P2. They use Kodable, which takes a similar approach to Scratch on the Pi. My son has a subscription and enjoys doing it at home.
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Sat 29 Feb 12:52

Quote:

jake89, Sat 29 Feb 10:13

Perhaps Duloch Primary is different, but all the kids were taught coding in P2. They use Kodable, which takes a similar approach to Scratch on the Pi. My son has a subscription and enjoys doing it at home.


Duloch PS is different,Jake. For one thing, it has fantastic facilities, certainly the best in the 42 West Fife primary schools I've visited in recent years. No less important are its pupils and teachers, of course. The Pars Tackle Health initiative has totalled 10 visits to Duloch so far and in every case we have been impressed by how focussed, knowledgeable and well behaved the children have been. This reflects well on their parents and teachers, as well as the pupils themselves, of course.

There are other schools operating at similarly excellent levels to Duloch, with inferior facilities, but there are also schools which are striving to overcome significant obstacles to learning, due to poor resources and facilities and disadvantaged children.



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Sat 29 Feb 13:00

A quick Google revealed Newport also uses Kodable. Surely used Fife wide?
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: pacifist  
Date:   Sat 29 Feb 19:47

Anything to do with the Scottish Government will now become ott as the next elections will be Scottish Government Elections. Expect piles of mince to be poured over the tatties in the build up. The op on this thread is obviously part of a campaign. Scottish Education is not the worst in Europe. Educationalists are expected to sort out all the social problems in the world and that isn't possible. Austerity from the tories and lib dems has a huge part to play in this. Scottish local authorities and the SG are working wonders mitigating tory policies but can't prevent everything. We have many dedicated people making things better and they are succeeding against incredible pressures.
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Sat 29 Feb 20:26

Quote:

jake89, Sat 29 Feb 13:00

A quick Google revealed Newport also uses Kodable. Surely used Fife wide?


Aberdeen all use scratch. My daughter did that from p3.
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: renegade master  
Date:   Sat 29 Feb 21:17

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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Sat 29 Feb 23:14

Partially agree with you there RM but the solution isn't to cut support for drug addicts, it's to look at why people become addicts in the first place. Most of it can be linked back to deprivation and adverse childhood experiences, which is why it's great that research is being done in these areas.

Let's be honest, if you live in a fairly miserable area then you're going to end up with poorer health, poorer prospects and be more likely to turn to some cheap crap being peddled by a local drug dealer to escape it all for a while.

Council budgets have been getting cut for years, meaning debts increase and repayments increase, meaning even less money in the pot. It's a vicious cycle. Right now 25% of your council tax is effectively burned as it goes to servicing debt.
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Sun 1 Mar 00:55

That £20 million is try and keep people alive.
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Sun 1 Mar 01:17

'But they are not, Fife Council having to cut £3m from it's education budget proves this. Yet they can find an additional £20m to try and cut drug deaths in Glasgow'

Are you blaming Fife Council or the SNP? Or conflating two issues to make confirm a prejudice?

As for trying to frighten the sh*** out of teenagers, you are on a doomed mission there. To their eternal credit, teenagers the world over have always discounted the doom laden prophecies of their elders, otherwise we would still be living in caves. Sometimes they reject good advice, sometimes bad, but fear of dying is not something they respond to very well.

Drugs have been intrinsic to my life for around 50 years, but since I pay tax on tobacco and alcohol no one seems to think this is a problem. I suppose I am a drug addict and was warned as a child that this would be bad for my health. Yet all of the people who told me this are now dead and I am still alive. So why should I have listened to them? I am a drug addict who was in steady employment for all my adult life and never saw the inside of a prison. I assume I am part of the majority of drug addicts. Why are we constantly demeaned by the Holy Willies?
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sun 1 Mar 09:36

I think plenty in government, even in Russia, see a problem with being addicted to tobacco and alcohol Sammer that's why, even in Russia, the governments have large public health campaigns to discourage their citizens from becoming addicted to such substances. Congratulations on out living those who tried to advise you to not smoke or drink excessively. You sure showed them. I can assure you though if you had started to inject yourself with heroin 50 years ago the end result wouldn't have been so positive so maybe these doom mongers are worth listening to sometimes.

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: pacifist  
Date:   Sun 1 Mar 09:38

an extra 350 jobs in Fife created for the doubling of free child care perhaps needs mentioned amidst the negativity from the original poster. Fife Council is run by both labour and the snp. They are facing huge increases in demand and the problems of a decade of tory austerity. They will be taking decisions on what is the least hurtful.
I believe local councils in England have had their budgets cut by 49% in 8 years. Folk who value local services should be thankful they live in Scotland.
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: pacifist  
Date:   Sun 1 Mar 09:43

"doesn't care if a waster dies in Glasgow" there's a tory attitude for you. Probably doesn;t care about the deaths from benefit cut backs either, or the tragedy of foodbanks.
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sun 1 Mar 09:50

Surely now that the Scottish government can raise income tax levels our councils shouldn't have to cut back public services?

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: pacifist  
Date:   Sun 1 Mar 09:58

actually, I think the deal between the SG and greens means they probably don't have to cut back on services. The £95 million shortfall has been filled.
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Sun 1 Mar 14:16

Those free nursery places mean my son's private nursery is upping it's fees as the "free" hours funding from SG doesn't cover their costs.
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sun 1 Mar 14:43

Why would that cause them to up their fees? Wouldn't their costs be whatever they are regardless of any SG free provision?

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Sun 1 Mar 21:22

Because SG will pay £50 p/d whereas the nursery fees are £55. So, to help with the shortfall, they charge the fee-payers £57 instead.

It's the same with university tuition fees. The rate paid by SG to cover Scottish and EU student fees hasn't gone up in years meaning it's costing the universities to take on these students. This is why so many are desperate to get the Chinese students in.

Getting things for free is great but it needs to be remembered that the companies offering these services aren't charities.
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sun 1 Mar 21:51

Can't the nursery just charge the difference?

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Sun 1 Mar 22:31

We could always revert to the perceived Good Old Days to improve results - simply persuade the "also rans" not to attempt the exam(s) and allow the near certain pass candidates to sit.

Or go even further back to the days of the Junior Secondary schools which essentially embraced the same by a different method.
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Mon 2 Mar 22:39

Quote:

The One Who Knocks, Sun 1 Mar 21:51

Can't the nursery just charge the difference?


Nope as that could be be open to abuse. The SG offers what is considered fair. Some nurseries are exceptional whilst others are very poor. It's usually reflected in the price.
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: pacifist  
Date:   Thu 5 Mar 17:02

very little negative in my opinion in providing an increase of free hours from 600 to 1140.
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 Re: Scottish Education
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Thu 5 Mar 19:21

Don't disagree with increasing provision but it was highlighted on the radio earlier in the week all the issues it's causing as they don't have the facilities or the staff to support this rate. They also highlighted what I'd said about the burden on private nurseries. The key thing was the limited involvement of private nurseries in the decision making.
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