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Topic Originator: Indiapar1
Date: Tue 8 Sep 11:35
Press report stated: “Scottish Parliament is not working”
The report appears to summarise the following:
Poor quality scrutiny
Party politics overriding committee independence
MSP`s are developing insufficient subject expertise. The median tenure on a committee was 1.5 to 2 years.
Committee discussions have become less interactive
Legilslative scrutiny is ocurring too late. Legislation being loaded with late amendments partly to generate party political headlines.
Public confidence in the Scotish Government has slipped from 63% in 2021 to 45% in 2023.
Approximately 3/4 of the public believe the Scottish government needs improvement.
Not having any personal experience of the Scottish Parliament system is it that individually some MSPs are poor performers. The more worrying interpretation could be that the institutional system rewards behaviours that make good MSPs less effective?
G Wardrope
Post Edited (Tue 08 Sep 18:09)
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Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert
Date: Tue 8 Sep 15:32
How about changing rules regarding the "list" MSP`s that have never won a raffle in their life!🤔
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Tue 8 Sep 18:06
Over 2/3s of people in the UK don`t think Westminster works and more than half don`t trust it. Will we see a rebuilding of that too?
Holyrood is a bit of a farce with these list seats but I`d rather we focussed on Westminster first. Chuck the Lords, chuck all the expenses, chuck all the knobby historic customs.
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Tue 8 Sep 19:28
Add the Royal Family to yer list jake
We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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Topic Originator: NMCmassive
Date: Tue 8 Sep 19:32
Genuinely, if we want independence we need to improve Holyrood. The list votes are a joke. We look like fools to the outside world because of it.
I’d make it a priority. As long as Holyrood looks as bad as or worse than Westminster, independence will be more difficult to achieve.
I’ve got to be honest though I have zero confidence in Holyrood whatsoever.
COYP
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Tue 8 Sep 20:59
Who do you think devised the voting system for Holyrood and who can change it? It was done that way so no one party was likely to gain an outright majority and they got a hell of a fright when the SNP managed it one election.
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Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert
Date: Wed 9 Sep 00:42
And yet the Falklands "will have the democratic right to decide their own future " according to Burnham!
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Thu 10 Sep 15:13
Well, did Burnham `misspeak` in the HoC yesterday when he said Scotland was in a similar position to N Ireland re a referendum on independence? It at least gave Swinney the chance to keep the pot boiling by wririting to him about it.
I find it quite amusing that, since Burnham became PM, Labour have adopterd a few policies that already apply up here eg taking part of the rail network back into public ownership, extending free bus travel and now the possible introduction of a tourist tax by mayors! Nationalising all the water companies might prove too expensive. Our esteemed Scottish media don`t seem to have noticed.
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Topic Originator: Indiapar1
Date: Thu 10 Sep 16:07
Quote:
wee eck, Tue 8 Sept 20:59
Who do you think devised the voting system for Holyrood and who can change it? It was done that way so no one party was likely to gain an outright majority and they got a hell of a fright when the SNP managed it one election.
Wee Eck - my understanding of was that it made the political party more representative of the electoral vote allocation. Was that the case?
G Wardrope
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Thu 10 Sep 16:24
Well it gives the smaller parties a fairer representation in terms of seats than they would have had under `first past the post`. The down side is that none of these `List` MSPs has been voted in directly and I think some electors resent this. They are simply nominated by their parties in order of precedence and some have almost become permanent fixtures in the Parliament without being elected by or accountable to a particular constituency.
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Topic Originator: Indiapar1
Date: Thu 10 Sep 16:31
The performance of the SNP since coming to power has been a really mixed picture, howver this may not be substantially different to the UK government.
In Scotland;
NHS - The NHS has unquestionably been affected by COVID, an ageing population, inflation, workforce shortages and pressures also affecting England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Those are legitimate mitigating factors. But they do not entirely explain the scale of the problem because many capacity and waiting-time difficulties pre-date the pandemic.
EDUCATION - There are areas of strength. Scotland still performs relatively well internationally in reading. In PISA 2022 Scotland scored 493 in reading against an OECD average of 476.
The problem is that the government`s headline claim of "closing the attainment gap" can obscure the distinction between destination statistics and actual academic attainment. Scotland has made social-equity gains, but international evidence suggests deterioration in some core educational competencies.
POLICE AND CRIME - In the year ending June 2026 Scotland recorded 323,531 crimes, 7% higher than the previous year and 13% higher than 2022. Non-sexual violent crime rose by 7% year-on-year and dishonesty offences by 10%. This is a change in the trajectory that has been on a downward trend.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT - Over many years, councils have faced increasing demand from social care, additional-support-needs education, homelessness and statutory duties while simultaneously trying to protect politically prominent national commitments.
The result has increasingly been visible in:
1. Road and pavement maintenance
2. libraries and community facilities;
3. Cleansing;
l4. Leisure facilities;
5. School estates;
6. Planning departments
7. Parks
8. Preventative maintenance
This matters because cuts to apparently discretionary preventative services eventually become asset-management liabilities. Delaying road resurfacing, roof maintenance or planned maintenance rarely removes the expenditure; it usually converts planned expenditure into more expensive reactive expenditure.
HOUSING AND HOMELESSNESS - Scotland has created strong entitlements, but the supply of social and affordable housing has not consistently been sufficient to fulfil them.
FERRIES AND MAJOR PROJECTS - The Ferguson Marine ferries episode has become particularly damaging because it demonstrates failures extending beyond one late construction contract.
SUMMARY - After 19 years of continuous SNP government, the argument that inherited problems are responsible becomes progressively less persuasive. COVID, Brexit, UK fiscal policy and demographic change clearly matter, but a government in office for nearly two decades also owns the resilience—or lack of resilience—of the systems it governs.
It would be useful to draw a comparison with the UK overall.
G Wardrope
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Thu 10 Sep 17:48
In Scotland in the last 19 years the electorate has not been sufficiently impressed by any of the alternative parties to vote them into government. It`s quite an indictment to accuse the government of such incompetence but be unable to convince voters that they can do any better. Maybe voters look south and decide that maybe things aren`t so bad after all.
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Topic Originator: Indiapar1
Date: Thu 10 Sep 18:18
Quote:
wee eck, Thu 10 Sept 17:48
In Scotland in the last 19 years the electorate has not been sufficiently impressed by any of the alternative parties to vote them into government. It`s quite an indictment to accuse the government of such incompetence but be unable to convince voters that they can do any better. Maybe voters look south and decide that maybe things aren`t so bad after all.
I don`t think I am accusing anyone of incompetence wee eck. I think it would be useful to draw a comparison with the UK government at have obviously been run by both Labour and Tories over the last 19 years. I`m not drawn either way and thus for me I would want to know the facts rather than the rhetoric that seems to be in the public domain. It will perhaps become really important and relevant to understand the pro`s and con`s of any fututre debate given that the independence card has been turned over again and seems to be back on the table.
G Wardrope
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Thu 10 Sep 18:40
I was referring to the opposition parties calling the Scottish government `incompetent`, Indiapar. Anyway, to no one`s surprise, Burnham has spurned Swinney`s advances and we`re back where we started.
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Topic Originator: NMCmassive
Date: Thu 10 Sep 19:27
Tbf incompetence has been proven time and again by the Scottish government
COYP
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Thu 10 Sep 19:46
OK, for sake of argument, let`s accept the Scottish government is incompetent. Why then have they been in power for 19 years?
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Topic Originator: Indiapar1
Date: Thu 10 Sep 20:35
Looking at the factors to consider in any independence debate:
Creating the machinery of state is technically achievable. Scotland already possesses the NHS, education system, police, fire service, courts, prosecution service, prisons, local government and much of the welfare administration. The large additions would be sovereign functions: Treasury capability, a central bank, full tax collection, customs and immigration, passports, foreign affairs, defence, intelligence, debt management and several national regulators. Scotland`s justice system is already substantially self-contained.
The harder institutional programmes would be HMRC replacement, customs, benefits and pensions, financial stability, defence/intelligence and border systems. These are large interconnected IT and operational systems where poor commissioning could directly affect tax collection, pension payments, imports and exports.
The most significant economic exposure is the UK relationship. The latest Scottish export statistics estimate that 60% of Scottish exports went to the rest of the UK, worth £55.4bn in 2023. EU membership could remove barriers between Scotland and the EU but would necessarily create some customs and regulatory formalities for goods moving between Scotland and UK. The Common Travel Area could preserve largely frictionless movement of people, but it does not eliminate a customs border for goods.
A lot of challenges to consider.
G Wardrope
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Topic Originator: Tenruh
Date: Thu 10 Sep 21:28
Quote:
wee eck, Thu 10 Sept 19:46
OK, for sake of argument, let`s accept the Scottish government is incompetent. Why then have they been in power for 19 years?
Because the unionist vote is split 4 ways
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Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Thu 10 Sep 21:45
Quote:
Tenruh, Thu 10 Sep 21:28
Quote:
wee eck, Thu 10 Sept 19:46
OK, for sake of argument, let`s accept the Scottish government is incompetent. Why then have they been in power for 19 years?
Because the unionist vote is split 4 ways
But the SNP as a party still get more votes than the other parties…..so surely if they were that bad, people just wouldn’t the for them? You know, like when the Tories were ousted 2 years ago?
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Thu 10 Sep 22:00
Quote:
Dave_1885, Thu 10 Sept 21:45
Quote:
Tenruh, Thu 10 Sep 21:28
Quote:
wee eck, Thu 10 Sept 19:46
OK, for sake of argument, let`s accept the Scottish government is incompetent. Why then have they been in power for 19 years?
Because the unionist vote is split 4 ways
But the SNP as a party still get more votes than the other parties…..so surely if they were that bad, people just wouldn’t the for them? You know, like when the Tories were ousted 2 years ago?
It doesn`t. It gets more votes than each individually but not all added up.
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Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Thu 10 Sep 22:16
Quote:
jake89, Thu 10 Sep 22:00
Quote:
Dave_1885, Thu 10 Sept 21:45
Quote:
Tenruh, Thu 10 Sep 21:28
Quote:
wee eck, Thu 10 Sept 19:46
OK, for sake of argument, let`s accept the Scottish government is incompetent. Why then have they been in power for 19 years?
Because the unionist vote is split 4 ways
But the SNP as a party still get more votes than the other parties…..so surely if they were that bad, people just wouldn’t the for them? You know, like when the Tories were ousted 2 years ago?
It doesn`t. It gets more votes than each individually but not all added up.
Thats the point I was getting at……surely the people that vote for them would either not vote for them, or change their vote, if they were that bad?
I mean, I nearly didn’t vote for them this year, but felt there was still just enough to make that vote. But then, others are surely less delusional than me?
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Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert
Date: Fri 11 Sep 00:38
Is there any other country in the world governed by another country?
Apart from Trump`s acquisitions?
Won't make any difference though, the Israelis will fudge the figures!
Post Edited (Fri 11 Sep 00:44)
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Topic Originator: Tenruh
Date: Fri 11 Sep 06:42
Quote:
Dave_1885, Thu 10 Sept 22:16
Quote:
jake89, Thu 10 Sep 22:00
Quote:
Dave_1885, Thu 10 Sept 21:45
Quote:
Tenruh, Thu 10 Sep 21:28
Quote:
wee eck, Thu 10 Sept 19:46
OK, for sake of argument, let`s accept the Scottish government is incompetent. Why then have they been in power for 19 years?
Because the unionist vote is split 4 ways
But the SNP as a party still get more votes than the other parties…..so surely if they were that bad, people just wouldn’t the for them? You know, like when the Tories were ousted 2 years ago?
It doesn`t. It gets more votes than each individually but not all added up.
Thats the point I was getting at……surely the people that vote for them would either not vote for them, or change their vote, if they were that bad?
I mean, I nearly didn’t vote for them this year, but felt there was still just enough to make that vote. But then, others are surely less delusional than me?
Why the nearly didn`t? What other voting option was open to you ?
On another issue re the voting system, the SNP had Marie Todd standing in her constituency and on the list vote, she actually lost her constituency seat but being top of the list for the Highlands she managed to get re-elected and get to the World Cup off the back of that.
Seriously though, if the constituency rejects you surely it`s a travesty still getting elected?
Lastly she`s now in the Cabinet earning in excess of £110k a year....well rewarded for failure.
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Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Fri 11 Sep 07:01
The other option really was not voting, because there are no other viable options that Id back 🤷🏻♂️ but I felt I had to vote to have a say really. Maybe that is how they remain in power because despite their flaws, others feel compelled to vote for them as theres no other viable parties up here.
The list is a total farce. Not one Reform MSP won a constituency vote, and yet 17 sit in Parliament - including some who came THIRD in their area vote! It’s a total con.
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Topic Originator: Indiapar1
Date: Fri 11 Sep 08:37
I think the performance of the SNP is a consideration in terms of future voting. The other important factor is the stated aim for independence. For me the important consideration is "what will independence actually look like". Brexit perhaps is an example of the philosophy of an "independent UK". There are a number of parallels in ideas there. There have been pro`s and con`s of Brexot based on different perspectives. The other consideration is the external security threats from a changing world.
There is an interesting implication for Scotland and Scottish independence in terms of energy. For example, energy would be one of the most inational-security functions an independent Scotland would have to establish. This includes generation adequacy, Black Start/restoration, grid operation, strategic fuel stocks, North Sea infrastructure, interconnectors with England and Europe, cyber protection and emergency planning would all become sovereign-security considerations. That is a substantially bigger issue than simply asking whether Scotland produces more electricity than it consumes.
For me this is an example of the real debate we should be having. Patriotism is important but pragmatism is also a consideration.
G Wardrope
Post Edited (Fri 11 Sep 09:03)
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Fri 11 Sep 09:14
Would there have not been similar concerns when the constituent nations of the USSR, Yugoslavia or Czechoslovakia went their separate ways? Why should any of these issues be seen as insuperable just because they would result from the break-up of the UK?
Nations governing themselves is normal. Four nations being recognised internationally as one is not. I`ve never understood why the citizens of a country would willingly cede its governance to a neighbour, especially a much bigger one which would could outvote it on matters where a mutual interest might not exist. At present the UK speaks up for the sovereignty of places like Palestine, Ukraine and Greenland but is strangely reticent when it comes to the sovereignty of its own constituent nations.
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Topic Originator: NMCmassive
Date: Fri 11 Sep 10:05
What makes you think they’ve been competent?
COYP
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Topic Originator: Indiapar1
Date: Fri 11 Sep 10:28
Wee Eck - I think that many of these countries being part of the former Soviet Union would have attracted substantial funding from the EU for example. Ths is particularly so given their geographical location I would assume. Also, these were very institutionalised societies with perhaps some of the systems in place to transition. Many of these systems would not be IT driven in those days.
There would be substantial challenges for sure, and I would agree that they are not insurmountable. My question would be: what would be the implementation strategy, timetable and at what cost. I believe the conservative estimate to transition would be anywhere between 6 and 10 years.
My caveat would be if we struggled to deliver a few island ferries, how would we fair with a significantly larger and riskier project.
It may not impact me at my age, but the cost and implications would fall to the next and future generations should we get it wrong.
I take neither side, but would want to understand the detail because if anything we owe that to future generations.
G Wardrope
Post Edited (Fri 11 Sep 10:40)
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Fri 11 Sep 10:47
You won`t get any detail unless a referendum is agreed otherwise the nationalists will be accused of wasting time and money on trrelevant issues whilse people are struggling with the real issues of modern life. That won`t stop the unionists saying there are lots of unanswered questions though.
Post Edited (Fri 11 Sep 12:48)
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Topic Originator: NMCmassive
Date: Fri 11 Sep 17:37
The unanswered question from the last referendum was the economy and it’s still unanswered.
COYP
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Topic Originator: NMCmassive
Date: Fri 11 Sep 17:47
Quote:
wee eck, Fri 11 Sep 09:14
Would there have not been similar concerns when the constituent nations of the USSR, Yugoslavia or Czechoslovakia went their separate ways? Why should any of these issues be seen as insuperable just because they would result from the break-up of the UK?
Nations governing themselves is normal. Four nations being recognised internationally as one is not. I`ve never understood why the citizens of a country would willingly cede its governance to a neighbour, especially a much bigger one which would could outvote it on matters where a mutual interest might not exist. At present the UK speaks up for the sovereignty of places like Palestine, Ukraine and Greenland but is strangely reticent when it comes to the sovereignty of its own constituent nations.
The USSR was basically bankrupt. It communist regime that forced constituent nations into servitude.
You honestly can’t compare that to the UK and if you do, you’re ignorant or biased.
Czechoslovakia was reinvaded (for want of a better way to put it) for having the gaul of considering leaving the USSR and communism in 1968. Tanks in street type of invasion.
We were given a referendum.
COYP
Post Edited (Fri 11 Sep 17:48)
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Topic Originator: Indiapar1
Date: Mon 14 Sep 09:42
Quote:
NMCmassive, Fri 11 Sept 17:37
The unanswered question from the last referendum was the economy and it’s still unanswered.
I believe the fiscal deficit in Scotland is approximately 11% of GDP compared to 5% in the rest of the UK. I think you would have to set up separate institutions and governance bodies for tax collection, defence, foreign service, intelligence etc.
Within an environment of a declining population in Scotland, my understanding is that the SNP want a more liberal immigration policy. I think if thats the case its an important issue. There is a dichotomy here, in that what does Scottish Independence look like and what would be the cultural impact on higher levels of migration. There are also other considerations such as AI and how will that impact the job market and the types of jobs available. AI can potentially replace a number of jobs. This could be the cusp of a paradigm shift in the working environment.
G Wardrope
Post Edited (Mon 14 Sep 10:05)
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Mon 14 Sep 10:13
Quote:
Indiapar1, Mon 14 Sept 09:42
Quote:
NMCmassive, Fri 11 Sept 17:37
The unanswered question from the last referendum was the economy and it’s still unanswered.
I believe the fiscal deficit in Scotland is approximately 11% of GDP compared to 5% in the rest of the UK. I think you would have to set up separate institutions and governance bodies for tax collection, defence, foreign service, intelligence etc.
Within an environment of a declining population in Scotland, my understanding is that the SNP want a more liberal immigration policy. I think if thats the case its an important issue. There is a dichotomy here, in that what does Scottish Independence look like and what would be the cultural impact on higher levels of migration. There are also other considerations such as AI and how will that impact the job market and the types of jobs available. AI can potentially replace a number of jobs. This could be the cusp of a paradigm shift in the working environment.
What the SNP want in an independent Scotland is irrelevant.
I`d imagine the cost of things like defence etc would be lower given we in Scotland currently pay to have a load of civil service jobs in England and Wales who "work" on our behalf but add nothing to our economy.
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Mon 14 Sep 10:50
As Scotland isn`t in control of its own fiscal policy while it is part of the UK how can you measure its `fiscal deficit` in a way that would reflect the situation if it were an independent country?
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Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Mon 14 Sep 11:26
Watching Farage etc going mental about then3 devolved parliament’s meeting and signing this agreement today is hilarious.
Folk calling out Swinney for backing the IRAs political arm etc is just great viewing
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Topic Originator: NMCmassive
Date: Mon 14 Sep 11:29
Quote:
wee eck, Mon 14 Sep 10:50
As Scotland isn`t in control of its own fiscal policy while it is part of the UK how can you measure its `fiscal deficit` in a way that would reflect the situation if it were an independent country?
It would only be the 5th time that questions been answered
COYP
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Mon 14 Sep 11:54
I must have missed all five.
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Topic Originator: Indiapar1
Date: Mon 14 Sep 13:34
I don`t really have a strong position either way at the end of the day. My only real view is that the last referendum was presented as a generational one. For me that means another one in 2035 if thats what the majority of people in Scotland want. Referendums every 10 years creates too much uncertainty I think. The two scenarios would be - independence voted for, remain part of the UK. So ten years after that would there be another vote to rejoin the UK if independence was the outcome if, hypothetically speaking, the perceived benefits of independence did not materialise.
G Wardrope
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Mon 14 Sep 15:23
Quote:
Indiapar1, Mon 14 Sept 13:34
I don`t really have a strong position either way at the end of the day. My only real view is that the last referendum was presented as a generational one. For me that means another one in 2035 if thats what the majority of people in Scotland want. Referendums every 10 years creates too much uncertainty I think. The two scenarios would be - independence voted for, remain part of the UK. So ten years after that would there be another vote to rejoin the UK if independence was the outcome if, hypothetically speaking, the perceived benefits of independence did not materialise.
We left the EU on the basis of a marginal ADVISORY vote. If we need certainty then it surely needs to be a 60+% vote rather than 50.1%? Saying that, the vote result will be whatever the media and Israel decide it`s to be.
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Topic Originator: Indiapar1
Date: Mon 14 Sep 15:54
I agree Jake89. It needs to be a bigger margin to be sustainable. I think my only real concern is that the independence vote has created division in one form or another and there is victory on neither side.
In terms of the Brexit vote, there is the potential to go around in circles as rejoining or being reintegrated back into Europe seems to be back on the agenda.
G Wardrope
Post Edited (Mon 14 Sep 15:59)
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Mon 14 Sep 16:32
Personally, I`d have Scotland back in the EU in a heartbeat. I couldn`t care less about being governed from Westminster. Holyrood can be dodgy but Westminster is another level.
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Topic Originator: NMCmassive
Date: Mon 14 Sep 18:04
Quote:
wee eck, Mon 14 Sep 11:54
I must have missed all five.
You ignored all 5 cos it’s counter to your ideology
COYP
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Mon 14 Sep 19:26
No, I missed them. I was hoping someone might enlighten me.
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Mon 14 Sep 19:46
I remember someone else who used to post on here telling people to look it up 🤔
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Topic Originator: NMCmassive
Date: Tue 15 Sep 01:13
Quote:
wee eck, Mon 14 Sep 19:26
No, I missed them. I was hoping someone might enlighten me.
No point Eck I already know your response.
You’ll ignore where the figures come from then blame Westminster.
I’d likely for independence as well but I’m not doing it without considering the consequences.
COYP
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Tue 15 Sep 07:32
I would treat any economic forecasts with a healthy dose of scepticism. It`s a very inexact science, especially in the current world situation. Economists rarely get right what`s going to happen in the next month, far less years ahead. How long did they say the oil would last at the time of the last referendum? There`s a lot of scaremongering goes on.
Sometimes you`ve got to trust your instincts and take comfort from the fact that lots of countries with fewer resources than Scotland have prospered on their own.
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Topic Originator: NMCmassive
Date: Tue 15 Sep 13:44
It’s not an economic forecast. It’s a report on what’s already happened
COYP
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Tue 15 Sep 14:17
No doubt it will be used as a precursor of doom. If it`s already happened it`s happened under the Union but that will.be glossed over.
The Union isn`t designed to spread prosperity throughout the UK, as Andy Burnham has pointed out, so it`s not a good basis for predicting how the constituent parts would do if independent.
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Topic Originator: NMCmassive
Date: Tue 15 Sep 15:59
As much as I agree to a point, it still doesn’t detract from the economy, finances and what we would do for a currency will be some of the the biggest questions and we knew that because it was the biggest question last time and they’ve never bothered to address it.
COYP
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Tue 15 Sep 16:17
I think they probably have been addressing them. Various papers have been published but it`s been pretty low-key because no referendum is imminent. If they made a song and dance about it they`d be criticised for doing it at the expense of more pressing problems. That`s the way the media works in Scotland.
Folk are always going to favour the status quo and look for guarantees under independence when, in fact, there are never guarantees on economic matters whoever is in charge.
Post Edited (Tue 15 Sep 17:47)
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Topic Originator: NMCmassive
Date: Tue 15 Sep 18:25
No they haven’t otherwise you’d be able to find it.
We are past the day and age where you can get away with that. All the required information is in your hand.
COYP
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Tue 15 Sep 18:55
There`s plenty stuff on the SNP website including a 112-page paper from Oct 22 `Building a new Scotland` and updates since.
Fill your boots.
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Topic Originator: NMCmassive
Date: Tue 15 Sep 19:14
Quote:
wee eck, Tue 15 Sep 18:55
There`s plenty stuff on the SNP website including a 112-page paper from Oct 22 `Building a new Scotland` and updates since.
Fill your boots.
Already know about it Eck. Raises more questions than answers. It actually talks about a fiscal deficit of 11.6% so I’m confused about how you didn’t know about it yourself now that you’ve referenced a paper that talks about it?
I’m pretty sure the IFS made public comments about the current deficit and where the extra £20bn that the SNP propose to spend it would come from.
COYP
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Topic Originator: Indiapar1
Date: Tue 15 Sep 19:20
I think where I am on this is that this is such a big decision that if the SNP want independence then there has to be a contract with the people of Scotland in terms of their policy and delivery. I appreciate the arguement that you cannot predict the future, but there has to be some accountability on what you are selling. Its not like buying something in a shop such that you can take it back.
I think economically Scotland has a credit rating of AA, but that is within the fiscal framework of the UK as a whole. I wonder how that will be impacted by an idependent Scotland and that period where you are setting up your own banking system, tax collection system and currency. This is on top of the current fiscal defecit of approximatel 11% of GDP. Granted that this may be adjusted but its not clear what tge existing UK liabilities are. A drop in credit rating from AA to say BBB would increase the cost of borrowing.
The SNP would need a clear negotiated debt settlement, credible currency regime, strong fiscal institutions etc.
You would also need to factor in the cost of transition to independence such as defence costs, foreign service, intelligence services, customs and immigration services etc.
Scotland also trades with England, so how would that be impacted. With a separate currency, there would be an exchange rate mechanism , possibly border controls etc.
Importantly, this is also within an environment of reckrd UK debt levels, way above the debt levels we had during the last recession. If we do not create growtb and get debt levels down, there could be very challenging times ahead.
G Wardrope
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Tue 15 Sep 19:28
If you knew about it why did you say they`d produced nothing?
Can we expect the Unionists to prepare a paper showing how Scotland will perform in the next few years if it remains in the Union and how much credibility will it have if they do? What`s our share of the UK National Debt going to be?
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Topic Originator: NMCmassive
Date: Tue 15 Sep 19:31
Quote:
wee eck, Tue 15 Sep 19:28
If you knew about it why did you say they`d produced nothing?
Can we expect the Unionists to prepare a paper showing how Scotland will perform in the next few years if it remains in the Union and how much credibility will it have if they do? What`s our share of the UK National Debt going to be?
If you knew about the deficit, why did you say you didn’t know anything about it?
COYP
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Topic Originator: NMCmassive
Date: Tue 15 Sep 19:47
Folk have to realise that leaving the UK would make us poorer, especially over the short to medium term. It won’t magically create more money and wealth. If shrinking our economy by leaving the EU via Brexit was bad, what do you think shrinking it from 60millionish to 5.5millionish would do?
We won’t instantly be accepted into the EU. Our finances are still miles of it and there’s political will against us getting in from countries bigger than us. Any nation that has internal independence movements won’t want to see us waltz into the EU. Spain is the obvious country that would be against it but also Belgium, France and Italy have areas/territories they don’t want an uprising in independence talks-which automatically entering us with our economy would do.
COYP
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Tue 15 Sep 20:31
The economics are filled with a lot of unknowns. Neither side can project the future but can make semi-informed guesses.
Spain said last time they wouldn`t stand in the way. No other EU country has passed comment on letting Scotland in.
My main concern on Scottish independence will be who will start fights on the streets once all the Rangers fans follow through with their threats of leaving.
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Tue 15 Sep 20:32
That`s funny I`m sure we were told the UK leaving the EU would make us richer! Who knows who to believe?
With a negative mindset like that we`ll struggle to prosper whether we`re part of the UK or independent. The Unionist parties must love it. They don`t have to change anything, just stumble on as before from one shambles to the next one.
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Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Tue 15 Sep 20:46
Quote:
NMCmassive, Tue 15 Sep 19:47
Folk have to realise that leaving the UK would make us poorer, especially over the short to medium term. It won’t magically create more money and wealth. If shrinking our economy by leaving the EU via Brexit was bad, what do you think shrinking it from 60millionish to 5.5millionish would do?
We won’t instantly be accepted into the EU. Our finances are still miles of it and there’s political will against us getting in from countries bigger than us. Any nation that has internal independence movements won’t want to see us waltz into the EU. Spain is the obvious country that would be against it but also Belgium, France and Italy have areas/territories they don’t want an uprising in independence talks-which automatically entering us with our economy would do.
We’ve already been made poorer…..and it’s not going to get better by remaining part of the Union. We wouldn’t need to enter the EU to make a trade deal with them, would we? 🤔
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Topic Originator: NMCmassive
Date: Tue 15 Sep 21:38
Quote:
Dave_1885, Tue 15 Sep 20:46
Quote:
NMCmassive, Tue 15 Sep 19:47
Folk have to realise that leaving the UK would make us poorer, especially over the short to medium term. It won’t magically create more money and wealth. If shrinking our economy by leaving the EU via Brexit was bad, what do you think shrinking it from 60millionish to 5.5millionish would do?
We won’t instantly be accepted into the EU. Our finances are still miles of it and there’s political will against us getting in from countries bigger than us. Any nation that has internal independence movements won’t want to see us waltz into the EU. Spain is the obvious country that would be against it but also Belgium, France and Italy have areas/territories they don’t want an uprising in independence talks-which automatically entering us with our economy would do.
We’ve already been made poorer…..and it’s not going to get better by remaining part of the Union. We wouldn’t need to enter the EU to make a trade deal with them, would we? 🤔
No but do you genuinely believe that they’ll just give us what we want and pay us on the back?
COYP
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Topic Originator: Tad Allagash
Date: Tue 15 Sep 21:50
Quote:
wee eck, Thu 10 Sep 19:46
OK, for sake of argument, let`s accept the Scottish government is incompetent. Why then have they been in power for 19 years?
A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul.
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Tue 15 Sep 21:59
That`s a bit simplistic is it not? What about Peter? Who does he support?
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Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert
Date: Tue 15 Sep 22:17
Unionists coming out the woodwork now, they`ll be heading to Ibrox soon!🤔🤣🤣🤣
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Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Wed 16 Sep 04:49
Quote:
NMCmassive, Tue 15 Sep 21:38
Quote:
Dave_1885, Tue 15 Sep 20:46
Quote:
NMCmassive, Tue 15 Sep 19:47
Folk have to realise that leaving the UK would make us poorer, especially over the short to medium term. It won’t magically create more money and wealth. If shrinking our economy by leaving the EU via Brexit was bad, what do you think shrinking it from 60millionish to 5.5millionish would do?
We won’t instantly be accepted into the EU. Our finances are still miles of it and there’s political will against us getting in from countries bigger than us. Any nation that has internal independence movements won’t want to see us waltz into the EU. Spain is the obvious country that would be against it but also Belgium, France and Italy have areas/territories they don’t want an uprising in independence talks-which automatically entering us with our economy would do.
We’ve already been made poorer…..and it’s not going to get better by remaining part of the Union. We wouldn’t need to enter the EU to make a trade deal with them, would we? 🤔
No but do you genuinely believe that they’ll just give us what we want and pay us on the back?
I don’t think anyone knows what to believe these days. Plenty believed in 2014 we wouldn’t be pulled out of the EU, then two years later we were, against the nations wishes.
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Topic Originator: NMCmassive
Date: Wed 16 Sep 07:49
Dave, what do you think a trade deal with the EU is going to be?
They’re not just going to give us loads of free money and access to the single market. They’ll want something in return. Money and/or sovereignty.
It’s not a belief system, it’s a financial deal.
I’m not saying we can’t get a deal that suits us overall but there will be consequences and it won’t automatically make us rich and happy
COYP
Post Edited (Wed 16 Sep 07:50)
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Topic Originator: Indiapar1
Date: Wed 16 Sep 12:22
UK politics shoukd be focused on identifying what unites us rather than what divides us. It should focus on win-win.
I agree wee eck that the remain/independence question is a complex one. It shouldn`t be reduced to TV or press headlines or soundbites. Complex issues require a robust framework of inquiry where assertions made should be debated in a serious and business like manner.
G Wardrope
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Wed 16 Sep 13:05
Piddington`s just voted to leave the UK with no hassle whatsoever! Where there`s a will there`s a way!
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Topic Originator: ipswichpar
Date: Wed 16 Sep 13:25
No doubt they will be running back to Westminster when the Russians attack them.
Are they going to fund their own borders when folk want to enter and leave the village?
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Wed 16 Sep 13:31
Presumably they put forward an economic case that convinced the villagers they could go it alone.
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Topic Originator: ipswichpar
Date: Wed 16 Sep 13:45
I think Big Dave The Fish & Chip guy wrote on the side of his van that they would get £200 a day back to fund NHS services in the area.
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Wed 16 Sep 15:43
The EU are now in discussions with Canada about offering it `associate` membership. Nothing is set in stone.
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Wed 16 Sep 19:13
"England" should refuse to pay Piddington`s pensions. Also, I expect hard borders.
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Topic Originator: Indiapar1
Date: Thu 24 Sep 08:11
Quote:
wee eck, Wed 16 Sept 15:43
The EU are now in discussions with Canada about offering it `associate` membership. Nothing is set in stone.
A reecent report Beyond Leave and Remain: A Path to Rejoining a Reformed Europe, authored by Tone Langengen, has the foreword written by Tony Blair. Blair believes that UK politicians should set out a public policy to rejoin a "reformed` EU within 10 years.
The OBR expects a UK long term loss in productivity of 4% but also admitted that it could not separate the effect of Covid and BREXIT. This does not automatically translate to a 4% drop in GDP. Obviously tbere are other considerations such as tax increases, spending constraints and the cost of borrowing given we run a fiscal deficit.
Langengen in his report stated that Europe organised itself around peace after the second world war, integration after the cold war, and today must reorganise around power.
Blair supports a new relationship based on the realities of 2026 not 2016. This is based on the new geopolitical landscape and UK security. This report is on the Tony Blair Institute web site.https://institute.global/insights/geopolitics-and-security/beyond-leave-and-remain-a-path-to-rejoining-a-reformed-europe
G Wardrope
Post Edited (Thu 24 Sep 08:35)
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Topic Originator: Indiapar1
Date: Thu 24 Sep 20:20
The Telegraph is reporting that Andy Burnhams advisors are recommending Labour go for an early election in the spring of next year. The belief is that the Labour 2024 manifesto has left the Labour party with one hand tied behind its back due to the red lines on tax, the fiscal rules and rejoining the EU customs union and single market. It seems Burnham wants to include other things as part of his own manifesto. The Labour party are currently leading Reform in the latest poll, but may not achieve an overall majority. Swinney has indicated he could lend support to the Labour party in return for a second referendum. The constraint reported may be the current middke east crisis. Lib Dems may also chip in as part of a coalition govt. Burnham has ruled it out previously but who knows.
G Wardrope
Post Edited (Thu 24 Sep 21:39)
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Topic Originator: Hoolie
Date: Thu 24 Sep 21:07
Danny Dyer was right..they are all cu..s.
We never elected him…
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Thu 24 Sep 21:29
We don`t vote for a party leader. The party votes for that. You vote for who you want as your MP and MSP.
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Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert
Date: Thu 24 Sep 22:11
Burnham wants democracy after being promoted to PM on a vote from 25K people!🤔🤣🤣🤣
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Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert
Date: Mon 5 Oct 18:44
Interesting that if a General Election was called they reckon the mainstream parties would struggle to get a majority and the SNP and Plaid Cymru may hold the balance of power!🤔🏴
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