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 The Holocaust
Topic Originator: Number57  
Date:   Wed 1 Aug 17:22

Any deniers on here. Would be interested in your thinking.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: kozmasrightfoot  
Date:   Wed 1 Aug 17:53

Deny that it happened? Have I read that correctly?

Of course it happened.

And Courtney had Kurt killed,of that I have no doubt.
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: parsmad68  
Date:   Wed 1 Aug 18:26

For anyone who has not been, I recommend the Jewish museum in Berlin that discusses the history of the Jews and also looks at the holocaust and details the feelings and the history of Jews in Germany. Very interesting.
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: Rastapari  
Date:   Wed 1 Aug 18:37

Shame It's being carried out again in Palestine with barely a murmur.

I Hope You're Ok Today....
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: DRFC_no1  
Date:   Wed 1 Aug 20:18

Anyone that denies it should be shown round Auschwitz! Then let them try to deny it!
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: calpar  
Date:   Wed 1 Aug 22:06

I dont know anyones denies it, but its difficult to sympathise when the persecuted become the persecutors and carry out illegal occupation of land that doesnt belong to them, and other such atrocities to the people who live there, imo
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: PARrot  
Date:   Wed 1 Aug 22:07

Quote:

Rastapari, Wed 1 Aug 18:37

Shame It's being carried out again in Palestine with barely a murmur.


Well out of order Rasta. Whats happening in Palestine is bad but not remotely similar.



Post Edited (Wed 01 Aug 22:07)
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: Rastapari  
Date:   Thu 2 Aug 06:53

Quote:

PARrot, Wed 1 Aug 22:07

Quote:

Rastapari, Wed 1 Aug 18:37

Shame It's being carried out again in Palestine with barely a murmur.


Well out of order Rasta. Whats happening in Palestine is bad but not remotely similar.


Really?
Take a look....when were Jewish kids bombed with white phosphorous?
I await your jumping not the "look an anti semite" bandwagon with interest.
What's happening in Palestine is certainly comparible.
Out of order?
Sit down....if you're not on your knees already.

I Hope You're Ok Today....
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: parsmad68  
Date:   Thu 2 Aug 07:31

There is a good book on this subject called “How Israel Lost” and how the situations of governments and not individuals have created the current environment.
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: parsfan  
Date:   Thu 2 Aug 08:26

The Holocaust wasn't kids getting caught up in military action (whether deliberately, collaterally or couldn't-care-lessly). It was the systematic rounding up, murder and disposal of millions of people.

I think there are valid comparisons to be made between Germany then and Israel now: lebensraum & the West Bank settlements, ghettofication and subhumanisation of subject populations but the Holocaust isn't one of them.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The universe is ruled by chance and indifference
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: PARrot  
Date:   Thu 2 Aug 08:39

Quote:

Rastapari, Thu 2 Aug 06:53

Quote:

PARrot, Wed 1 Aug 22:07

Quote:

Rastapari, Wed 1 Aug 18:37

Shame It's being carried out again in Palestine with barely a murmur.


Well out of order Rasta. Whats happening in Palestine is bad but not remotely similar.


Really?
Take a look....when were Jewish kids bombed with white phosphorous?
I await your jumping not the "look an anti semite" bandwagon with interest.
What's happening in Palestine is certainly comparible.
Out of order?
Sit down....if you're not on your knees already.


Not remotely similar. You are obviously quite rightly concerned, and moved by what is happening but you are making a huge error of judgement here.

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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: Rastapari  
Date:   Thu 2 Aug 11:06

Quote:

PARrot, Thu 2 Aug 08:39

Quote:

Rastapari, Thu 2 Aug 06:53

Quote:

PARrot, Wed 1 Aug 22:07

Quote:

Rastapari, Wed 1 Aug 18:37

Shame It's being carried out again in Palestine with barely a murmur.


Well out of order Rasta. Whats happening in Palestine is bad but not remotely similar.


Really?
Take a look....when were Jewish kids bombed with white phosphorous?
I await your jumping not the "look an anti semite" bandwagon with interest.
What's happening in Palestine is certainly comparible.
Out of order?
Sit down....if you're not on your knees already.


Not remotely similar. You are obviously quite rightly concerned, and moved by what is happening but you are making a huge error of judgement here.


Isreal is dedicated to wiping out Palestine...in what way is that different?
In method only.
Holocaust...murderous travesty.
Palestine.. .murderous travesty.

I Hope You're Ok Today....
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Thu 2 Aug 11:12

Nah not even remotely similar.
Anyway it seems that there aren't anyone, at least one here, who deny the Holocaust and that is a good thing.

Turn on, Tune in, Drop out.
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: PARrot  
Date:   Thu 2 Aug 11:45

Quote:

Rastapari, Thu 2 Aug 11:06

Quote:

PARrot, Thu 2 Aug 08:39

Quote:

Rastapari, Thu 2 Aug 06:53

Quote:

PARrot, Wed 1 Aug 22:07

Quote:

Rastapari, Wed 1 Aug 18:37

Shame It's being carried out again in Palestine with barely a murmur.


Well out of order Rasta. Whats happening in Palestine is bad but not remotely similar.


Really?
Take a look....when were Jewish kids bombed with white phosphorous?
I await your jumping not the "look an anti semite" bandwagon with interest.
What's happening in Palestine is certainly comparible.
Out of order?
Sit down....if you're not on your knees already.


Not remotely similar. You are obviously quite rightly concerned, and moved by what is happening but you are making a huge error of judgement here.


Isreal is dedicated to wiping out Palestine...in what way is that different?
In method only.
Holocaust...murderous travesty.
Palestine.. .murderous travesty.


Israel is not dedicated to any such thing.
Seriously this topic is too big to cover on here without very lengthy posts that just invoke further questions and lengthy replies. I already spend too much time on here.
The whole situation is a travesty and both sides are being manipulated like puppets. I can see how you side with the Palestinians as they are the ones currently suffering. I see both sides and take neither side. I am not blind , however to the Palestinians part in their own demise.

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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: Rastapari  
Date:   Thu 2 Aug 13:54

Quote:

PARrot, Thu 2 Aug 11:45

Quote:

Rastapari, Thu 2 Aug 11:06

Quote:

PARrot, Thu 2 Aug 08:39

Quote:

Rastapari, Thu 2 Aug 06:53

Quote:

PARrot, Wed 1 Aug 22:07

Quote:

Rastapari, Wed 1 Aug 18:37

Shame It's being carried out again in Palestine with barely a murmur.


Well out of order Rasta. Whats happening in Palestine is bad but not remotely similar.


Really?
Take a look....when were Jewish kids bombed with white phosphorous?
I await your jumping not the "look an anti semite" bandwagon with interest.
What's happening in Palestine is certainly comparible.
Out of order?
Sit down....if you're not on your knees already.


Not remotely similar. You are obviously quite rightly concerned, and moved by what is happening but you are making a huge error of judgement here.


Isreal is dedicated to wiping out Palestine...in what way is that different?
In method only.
Holocaust...murderous travesty.
Palestine.. .murderous travesty.


Israel is not dedicated to any such thing.
Seriously this topic is too big to cover on here without very lengthy posts that just invoke further questions and lengthy replies. I already spend too much time on here.
The whole situation is a travesty and both sides are being manipulated like puppets. I can see how you side with the Palestinians as they are the ones currently suffering. I see both sides and take neither side. I am not blind , however to the Palestinians part in their own demise.


So what is Isreal touchy about it being reported?

I Hope You're Ok Today....
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: PARrot  
Date:   Thu 2 Aug 14:49

Sorry I don't know what you mean.

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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: WORST  
Date:   Thu 2 Aug 15:06

Rasta clearly means "why" are they touchy about it being reported.



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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: Rastapari  
Date:   Thu 2 Aug 15:30

Quote:

WORST, Thu 2 Aug 15:06

Rasta clearly means "why" are they touchy about it being reported.


This.

I Hope You're Ok Today....
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: petrie_pants  
Date:   Thu 2 Aug 15:35

I had a guy once speak to me quite openly and without shame about how certain concentration camps were all set up and how things like the scratch marks in gas chambers from people dragging their nails down in sheer agony were all put there by the west after the war. Luckily I was able to compose myself and just walk away from him.
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: PARrot  
Date:   Thu 2 Aug 15:50

I got the "why" typo.

Touchy about what in particular, and shy do you say they ard touchy about it?

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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: Hummingbird Harry  
Date:   Thu 2 Aug 15:55

Tbh PP, I wouldn’t even be angry with someone like that. I’d genuinely struggle not to laugh AT them
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: PARrot  
Date:   Thu 2 Aug 15:55

Quote:

petrie_pants, Thu 2 Aug 15:35

I had a guy once speak to me quite openly and without shame about how certain concentration camps were all set up and how things like the scratch marks in gas chambers from people dragging their nails down in sheer agony were all put there by the west after the war. Luckily I was able to compose myself and just walk away from him.


A disciple of David Irving probably
<https://www.google.co.uk/search?source=hp&ei=mA1iW4ylDMzUwALHjKXIDw&q=film+holocaust+denial&oq=film+holocaust+denial&gs_l=mobile-gws-wiz-hp.3..46j0i22i30.3371.14001..14573...1.0...139.2370.3j18....2..0....1.......5..0j35i39j46i39j0i131j0i10.g7P7TxXoyN0#wptab=s:H4sIAAAAAAAAAONgVuLVT9c3NEwqL7S0MCgzf8TozS3w8sc9YSmnSWtOXmO04eIKzsgvd80rySypFNLjYoOyVLgEpVB1ajBI8XOhCvHsYuLIL0stKstMLQcASvoefGoAAAA>

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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: WORST  
Date:   Thu 2 Aug 16:02

And the prize for the longest failed link goes to...... 😂

It's weird how some links just refuse to work



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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: Andrew283  
Date:   Thu 2 Aug 16:30

Israel is committing genocide whilst the west turns a blind eye. Doesn't surprise me the Government tend to back these types as we have History with the Saudi's, Gadafi, and god only knows how many dictators and terrorist groups in the middle east.
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: PARrot  
Date:   Thu 2 Aug 16:44

Israel is not comiting genocide.

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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: Rastapari  
Date:   Thu 2 Aug 16:48

Quote:

PARrot, Thu 2 Aug 16:44

Israel is not comiting genocide.


Put your book down for a second.
What are they committing then?

I Hope You're Ok Today....
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: Andrew283  
Date:   Thu 2 Aug 16:53

They're clearly just having a laugh with the Palestinians and their chemical weapons, nothing to see here lads
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: PARrot  
Date:   Thu 2 Aug 17:59

Quote:

Rastapari, Thu 2 Aug 16:48

Quote:

PARrot, Thu 2 Aug 16:44

Israel is not comiting genocide.


Put your book down for a second.
What are they committing then?


There is a serious conflict and people are dying. It isn't anything like genocide though. No need for the smartass comments. An adult discussion is plenty.

On the other hand check out Mohammed Amin al-Husseini. He wasn't responsible for the initiation of the holocaust (real genocide) as Netan_yahoo fibbed but he was very active in its implementation.



Post Edited (Thu 02 Aug 18:15)
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Fri 3 Aug 15:40

The holocaust was a planned extermination on an industrial scale needing huge logistical resources and significant manpower to implement.

Reinhard Heydrich, a prime mover of the Final Solution, chaired the Wannsee Conference to that purpose - he insisted on approving the minutes so he could amend the language etc. so as not to be too incriminating.

I don't recall the state of Israel constructing concentration camps and organising all the support infrastructure the Nazis required.

Of course some people see the Palestenians as the "good buys" with the Israelis at the other end of the scale, whereas the truth is somewhere between these polar
opposites.

The Palestinians (as do most Islamic countries) refuse to accept the right of the state of Israeli to exist, so from that basic position it's more or less impossible to move forward.



Post Edited (Fri 03 Aug 15:42)
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Fri 3 Aug 15:46

Excellent post VEE.
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: Rastapari  
Date:   Fri 3 Aug 16:12

Quote:

veteraneastender, Fri 3 Aug 15:40

The holocaust was a planned extermination on an industrial scale needing huge logistical resources and significant manpower to implement.

Reinhard Heydrich, a prime mover of the Final Solution, chaired the Wannsee Conference to that purpose - he insisted on approving the minutes so he could amend the language etc. so as not to be too incriminating.

I don't recall the state of Israel constructing concentration camps and organising all the support infrastructure the Nazis required.

Of course some people see the Palestenians as the "good buys" with the Israelis at the other end of the scale, whereas the truth is somewhere between these polar
opposites.

The Palestinians (as do most Islamic countries) refuse to accept the right of the state of Israeli to exist, so from that basic position it's more or less impossible to move forward.


Why should they accept a murderous rogue terrorist stat with unregulated nuclear bombs existing?

I Hope You're Ok Today....
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: PARrot  
Date:   Fri 3 Aug 17:25

Rasta, you are baffling me with your simplistic misunderstanding of this conflict. You usually seem in the sensible, worth listening to bracket but you dont seem to be able to grasp what is going on in the middle east. The Israelis turned a desert into a paradise and provided work and security for all. It was working well until the militant Arab factions started machine gunning school buses and bombing McDonalds..targeting kids again. The Israelis had no choice but to build the wall.
Land grab is wrong but it is not genocide. The military conflict is entirely the fault of the factions in Palestine who want to obliterate Israel and are using the Palestinian people as puppets.
Both sides are responsible but you only condemn Israel.
If I had been attacked on sevetal occasions from bordering countries who have publicly stated they want to obliterate my people, fresh on the back of the holocaust you are fecking kidding yourself if you think I would be in any way complacent with on going terrorist attacks. You can also be sure I would arm myself to the teeth and stick two fingers up at anyone who suggested that is wrong.

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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe  
Date:   Fri 3 Aug 18:15

Realism is needed here.
Despite the fact they are on occupied land the whole world needs to accept they are there to stay and it won't change.
That's a simple fact.

A truce settlement is needed at some point otherwise the huge inequality will continue and they will never move on.

If you only turn up to moan then do it elsewhere
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Fri 3 Aug 18:52

"Why should they accept a murderous rogue terrorist stat with unregulated nuclear bombs existing?"

All those that refused to recognise the right of Israel to exist did so from the very inception of that country from 1948, including Egypt and Jordan who now do so.

Long before nuclear bombs (which has nothing to do with this issue) indeed when only the USA had such capability.



Post Edited (Fri 03 Aug 19:10)
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: Rastapari  
Date:   Sat 4 Aug 06:42

It is really quite simple.
They don't belong there...have no right to the land whatsoever...and now they are wiping out and expanding.
By all means carry on trying to sell the notion It's "complicated".
It really isn't if you take away the fear of criticising Isreal.

I Hope You're Ok Today....
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: calpar  
Date:   Sat 4 Aug 08:42

^^pretty much sums it up

The 'state' of palestine was there, existing, people living there, so what if in a fkn desert ? It was still their home !

Turns up a bunch of persecuted europeans in 1947 and they decide to take some land
Come 1967 after already shiting on the locals, against international law they subsequently steal more territory, and since then continue, and subjegate? the hereditary population to basically refugee status? Whats not to dislike ?
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Sat 4 Aug 11:57

The land was taken when they Ottoman empire was defeated in WW1.Britain controlled the land till 1947.

War tends to change a lot of things.
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: PARrot  
Date:   Sat 4 Aug 12:47

Quote:

calpar, Sat 4 Aug 08:42

^^pretty much sums it up

The 'state' of palestine was there, existing, people living there, so what if in a fkn desert ? It was still their home !

Turns up a bunch of persecuted europeans in 1947 and they decide to take some land
Come 1967 after already shiting on the locals, against international law they subsequently steal more territory, and since then continue, and subjegate? the hereditary population to basically refugee status? Whats not to dislike ?


Utter nonsense from beginning to end.
Ill elaborate later when I have time.



Post Edited (Sat 04 Aug 12:49)
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: PARrot  
Date:   Sat 4 Aug 12:49

Quote:

Rastapari, Sat 4 Aug 06:42

It is really quite simple.
They don't belong there...have no right to the land whatsoever...and now they are wiping out and expanding.
By all means carry on trying to sell the notion It's "complicated".
It really isn't if you take away the fear of criticising Isreal.


They do belong there, it is their land, they are wiping out nothing and it is far more complicated than you are making out.



Post Edited (Sat 04 Aug 12:50)
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: Rastapari  
Date:   Sat 4 Aug 14:17

Quote:

PARrot, Sat 4 Aug 12:49

Quote:

Rastapari, Sat 4 Aug 06:42

It is really quite simple.
They don't belong there...have no right to the land whatsoever...and now they are wiping out and expanding.
By all means carry on trying to sell the notion It's "complicated".
It really isn't if you take away the fear of criticising Isreal.


They do belong there, it is their land, they are wiping out nothing and it is far more complicated than you are making out.


Other than the Rothchild's and a dubious book of tales...what claim do they have over the land?

I Hope You're Ok Today....
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: red-star-par  
Date:   Sat 4 Aug 21:43

Religion should be banned. It's noticeable how the only people defending israel are the two religiously brainwashed fools on this site. They need to learn to think for themselves
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: PARrot  
Date:   Sat 4 Aug 22:14

Quote:

red-star-par, Sat 4 Aug 21:43

Religion should be banned. It's noticeable how the only people defending israel are the two religiously brainwashed fools on this site. They need to learn to think for themselves


I decided a while ago that I wasn't going to respond to this sort of post with cheap jibes about the intellect of the proponent.

I have to admit I am really struggling.

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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sat 4 Aug 22:22

I don't think the religious zealouts that govern Gaza would want Islam banned like you suggest Red Star.

Turn on, Tune in, Drop out.
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: PARrot  
Date:   Sat 4 Aug 22:24

I'd love to know what RSP would have done with all the billions of people who continued to practice their religions after he banned them. Some kind of genocide maybe.

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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: Andrew283  
Date:   Sat 4 Aug 23:18

Not biased education would probably help...
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: red-star-par  
Date:   Sat 4 Aug 23:22

Just education would probably be enough. That may also help you too
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: PARrot  
Date:   Sun 5 Aug 00:13

😲🤔No words!

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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Sun 5 Aug 12:51

"Religion should be banned" Critically analysed would be preferable.
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: calpar  
Date:   Sun 5 Aug 13:18

How do white settlers from europe 'belong' on land that others have been living on for thousands of years ? And then round them up into ghettos ? Think i'd be pretty pssd off too

And thats without even referring to the racist side of them
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Sun 5 Aug 13:24

and of course all white folks living today have to pay for that,right?
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: Rastapari  
Date:   Sun 5 Aug 13:43

Quote:

richie5401, Sun 5 Aug 13:24

and of course all white folks living today have to pay for that,right?


Wow.

I Hope You're Ok Today....
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Sun 5 Aug 13:47

It's an idea gaining more and more traction.Just read the NY times.It's an argument that is as stupid as it is dangerous.



Post Edited (Sun 05 Aug 17:15)
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: calpar  
Date:   Sun 5 Aug 13:50

Why would we want to read some american propoganda when we can have so much choice of our own ?
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Sun 5 Aug 13:50

oops forgot the link

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/26/us/reparations-happy-hour-portland.html
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Sun 5 Aug 13:52

Right.that's something there will never be a shortage of.
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: PARrot  
Date:   Sun 5 Aug 14:58

Quote:

calpar, Sun 5 Aug 13:18

How do white settlers from europe 'belong' on land that others have been living on for thousands of years ? And then round them up into ghettos ? Think i'd be pretty pssd off too

And thats without even referring to the racist side of them


Thats not what happened and its not whats happening.

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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: calpar  
Date:   Sun 5 Aug 15:26

Yes it was/is
State of Israel was created in1948
State of Palestine was created in 1917
State of Israel as it has now become illegally expanded in 1967
Prior to all of that, there were people living there, call them what you like Cannaans ?
But what exists now never belonged to them
Which part of that is not correct my feathered friend ?
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: PARrot  
Date:   Sun 5 Aug 17:29

Lots of it and thanks for being civil. It makes all the difference.
Im too busy to respond now but I will.

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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: WheelKing99  
Date:   Sun 5 Aug 22:45

Quote:

PARrot, Sun 05 Aug 17:29

Lots of it and thanks for being civil. It makes all the difference.
Im too busy to respond now but I will.


Brilliant ! Erse handed to you there in fairness

Form is temporary, Class is permanent
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: Rastapari  
Date:   Sun 5 Aug 23:06

Quote:

PARrot, Sun 5 Aug 17:29

Lots of it and thanks for being civil. It makes all the difference.
Im too busy to respond now but I will.


Tell how Jacob Rothschild had nothing to do with the creation of Isreal ?
I'm genuinely all ears...

I Hope You're Ok Today....
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: PARrot  
Date:   Sun 5 Aug 23:10

Quote:

WheelKing99, Sun 5 Aug 22:45

Quote:

PARrot, Sun 05 Aug 17:29

Lots of it and thanks for being civil. It makes all the difference.
Im too busy to respond now but I will.


Brilliant ! Erse handed to you there in fairness


Really?

No.

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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: thenatural  
Date:   Mon 6 Aug 08:44

Quote:

Rastapari, Sun 05 Aug 23:06

Quote:

PARrot, Sun 5 Aug 17:29

Lots of it and thanks for being civil. It makes all the difference.
Im too busy to respond now but I will.


Tell how Jacob Rothschild had nothing to do with the creation of Isreal ?
I'm genuinely all ears...


I know his family is highly influential but he must have been a very precocious twelve year old.
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Mon 6 Aug 17:36

The “they should not be there” position ignores the reality.

Israel does exist, 70 years on, and it’s not going to go away.

Over 80% off UN member states recognise it, those who do not are almost all Islamic countries, and even there Egypt and Jordan have broken ranks and now have diplomatic relations.
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: parsmad68  
Date:   Mon 6 Aug 18:29

Whilst in Egypt working, I was talking to the team there about Israel and they were mentioning a old common language between Israeli and the Islamic nations. Whilst never looked into it further, the locals in Egypt were quite open and reasonable about the subject of Israel.
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: doctordandruff  
Date:   Mon 6 Aug 18:57

The southern Palestine border is with Egypt and they uphold the blockade there. Or is that western border.
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: Opelfruitloops  
Date:   Tue 7 Aug 00:04

The Israelis will tell you that This is the historic land of the Jews. They'll point to the Torah. But if you beleive the version of how they got the land it was through genocide in the first place. Now Isreal has created the biggest refugee camp and longest lasting refugee camp in the world. There thousand of displaced Palistinians living without anything because they were thrown of their own land in 1947 with the creation of Israel. Israel has destroyed crops, ripped up Palistinian Olive groves boarded ships and destroyed the cargo in order to prevent aid getting to Palistinians. They created a law that said if land was not worked for a year then it would fall to the state. So all they did was make sure Palistinians who still owned and farmed land in Israel couldn't work their own land. Then the government declared it theirs under that law. What little the Palistinians have Israel destroys. Israeli politicians call for genocide.

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-the-israeli-mk-heralding-genocide-against-palestinians-1.5475561

The whole campaign to vilify Corbyn and Labour as anti Semitic has nothing to do with Labour being full of anti semites. Now you can hate Labour for many things but the charge of being anti Semitic is just an attempt to stop critisism of Israel's atrocities. If you want to see a real anti Semite then just ask Boris Johnstone. He's freinds with David Irving a haulocaust denier

Be true to who you are
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Tue 7 Aug 00:21

I watched a documentary on Netflix last night about the Nazi death squads and their violent pogrums against the Jews in the early war period. Whilst it is a series, I couldn't stomach watching more than one episode. It is sickening viewing.

One thing that was revealed that I knew nothing about was that Hitler had another option for the Jews rather than the death camps. It was known as the Madagascar Plan.

This plan would see Germany take over the administration of the island of Madagascar in part as reparation from France, which operated it as a colony. Germany would send one million Jews a year, for four years, to Madagascar where they would be allowed to set up their own state, under Nazi administration.

It is hard to understand how the logistics of this would work in practice, but that aside, Hitler abandoned the plan in 1942, opting instead for the more permanent solution that ultimately saw some 6 million deaths.

I suppose this is one of those classic "what if?" scenarios: if the Jewish state had been established on a large island off the east coast of Africa and not in Palestine, how different would things be today? How sustainable was this solution? Would the permanent state of conflict that we see in that part of the Middle East have simply switched to East Africa?

Given the presence of oil in the Middle East, I think there would still be conflict there, with or without Israel. And I doubt that the Jews would have accepted Madagascar as a permanent alternative to placing their footprint in Palestine. Nonetheless, it was quite intriguing to learn something new about this seemingly endless conflict.
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: Rastapari  
Date:   Tue 7 Aug 06:42

Quote:

Opelfruitloops, Tue 7 Aug 00:04

The Israelis will tell you that This is the historic land of the Jews. They'll point to the Torah. But if you beleive the version of how they got the land it was through genocide in the first place. Now Isreal has created the biggest refugee camp and longest lasting refugee camp in the world. There thousand of displaced Palistinians living without anything because they were thrown of their own land in 1947 with the creation of Israel. Israel has destroyed crops, ripped up Palistinian Olive groves boarded ships and destroyed the cargo in order to prevent aid getting to Palistinians. They created a law that said if land was not worked for a year then it would fall to the state. So all they did was make sure Palistinians who still owned and farmed land in Israel couldn't work their own land. Then the government declared it theirs under that law. What little the Palistinians have Israel destroys. Israeli politicians call for genocide.

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-the-israeli-mk-heralding-genocide-against-palestinians-1.5475561

The whole campaign to vilify Corbyn and Labour as anti Semitic has nothing to do with Labour being full of anti semites. Now you can hate Labour for many things but the charge of being anti Semitic is just an attempt to stop critisism of Israel's atrocities. If you want to see a real anti Semite then just ask Boris Johnstone. He's freinds with David Irving a haulocaust denier


And all that is fine to our resident Christians,vile.

I Hope You're Ok Today....
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Tue 7 Aug 12:33

Cracking folks the Canaanites.Didn't mind a bit of child sacrifice.
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: Opelfruitloops  
Date:   Tue 7 Aug 12:56

Quote:

richie5401, Tue 7 Aug 12:33

Cracking folks the Canaanites.Didn't mind a bit of child sacrifice.


Maybe aye maybe naw. How do we really know. Because the Torah says so. But if we go by that then the Jews did far worse. They slaughtered a whole nation, men, women and children. Those they didn't kill they kept as slaves, the women who survived were raped. Aye, cracking people the ancient Jews.

Be true to who you are
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe  
Date:   Tue 7 Aug 13:01

Whenever I read these posts it's like reading the to's and fro's with Celtic and Rangers fans.

"you were scum for doing that"

"but what about when you did that? "

It goes on and on and it's so tiresome.

If you only turn up to moan then do it elsewhere
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Tue 7 Aug 13:19

Your previous position was they committed genocide.Which you believe and it's in the book.Now you are not sure of the reason which is also in the book.

So is it all true or just the parts that fit your viewpoint?
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: Opelfruitloops  
Date:   Tue 7 Aug 13:22

We dont know if its true. The point is the Israelis beleive it to be true. That being the case then they have to accept they stole the land in the first place after commiting one of histories worst cases of genocide.

Be true to who you are
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Tue 7 Aug 13:25

Child sacrifice to false gods isn't something that should be allowed to flourish.

Maybe you disagree.
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: average white par  
Date:   Tue 7 Aug 14:28

What exactly are "false gods" Richie? Are they gods which aren't the exact equivalent of your god? Are they gods who support a slightly different viewpoint? Are they potential gods? Are they gods who need a run of games in the U20's to bring them up to first team level? Are they gods who need to go out on loan to bring them up to match sharpness?

You have turned a thread about a 20th century disaster into a farce by trying to tenuously connect the whole thing to the Canaanites... it beggars belief...

Speaking of begging, can you spare a shekel for an old ex leper...?

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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Tue 7 Aug 14:40

From the Goddess of marriage and pregnancy(Kotharat)to the God of fire(Moloch) and just about every conceivable variation in between the Canaanites worshipped them all.

The one true God?The one who created the heavens and the earth.

The history of Israel goes back at least 4-5000 years.That's not a farce it's pertinent to the discussion.

Spare a shekel?Paypal alright?
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: Rastapari  
Date:   Tue 7 Aug 14:46

Quote:

richie5401, Tue 7 Aug 13:25

Child sacrifice to false gods isn't something that should be allowed to flourish.

Maybe you disagree.


And your God is real?
Sit down, try thinking, try tolerance and renouncing bigotry and racism too while you are at it.

I Hope You're Ok Today....
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Tue 7 Aug 14:56

Well the heavens and the earth are real and couldn't be made by no one.

Ah tolerance,bigotry,racism.Must be time the conversation to end when that is trotted out.
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Tue 7 Aug 15:18

Exodus 22:29-30
"You must give me the firstborn of your sons. Do the same with your cattle and your sheep. Let them stay with their mothers for seven days, but give them to me on the eighth day.

Joshua 6:21
"They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it - men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys."

Genesis 22:2
"Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about."

Numbers 31:25-30, 40-41
"Now the LORD spoke to Moses, saying: "Count up the plunder that was taken - of man and beast - you and Eleazar the priest and the chief fathers of the congregation; and divide the plunder into two parts, between those who took part in the war, who went out to battle, and all the congregation. And levy a tribute for the LORD on the men of war who went out to battle: one of every five hundred of the persons, the cattle, the donkeys, and the sheep; take it from their half, and give it to Eleazar the priest as a heave offering to the LORD. And from the children of Israel's half you shall take one of every fifty, drawn from the persons, the cattle, the donkeys, and the sheep, from all the livestock, and give them to the Levites who keep charge of the tabernacle of the LORD."

The persons were sixteen thousand, of which the LORD's tribute was thirty-two persons. So Moses gave the tribute which was the LORD's heave offering to Eleazar the priest, as the LORD commanded Moses."

Judges 11:30-39
And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD: "If you give the Ammonites into my hands, whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the LORD's, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering."

Then Jephthah went over to fight the Ammonites, and the LORD gave them into his hands. He devastated twenty towns from Aroer to the vicinity of Minnith, as far as Abel Keramim. Thus Israel subdued Ammon.

When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of tambourines! She was an only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter. When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried, "Oh! My daughter! You have made me miserable and wretched, because I have made a vow to the LORD that I cannot break."

"My father," she replied, "you have given your word to the LORD. Do to me just as you promised, now that the LORD has avenged you of your enemies, the Ammonites. But grant me this one request," she said. "Give me two months to roam the hills and weep with my friends, because I will never marry."

"You may go," he said. And he let her go for two months. She and the girls went into the hills and wept because she would never marry. After the two months, she returned to her father and he did to her as he had vowed."

Seems like the Torah can't make up its mind on the subject.

Also, wasn't Jesus a human sacrifice? At what age does sacrificing humans become less objectionable to Jaweh?
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Tue 7 Aug 15:35

A poor attempt wotsit.Lifting scripture without any context whatsoever.Read Exodus 13 12-13.The story of Isaac?nothing to do with sacrifice it's an example of faith

As for the last example nothing to do with sacrifice and and everything to do with love.
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Tue 7 Aug 16:31

Ref: Wotsit
Date: Tue 7 Aug 15:18

Good post Wotsit, I appreciate the effort that went into that.

I understand what you say about Jesus as a human sacrifice. I've often thought and sometimes voiced that myself. However, believers in the trinity (not me) can easily get round it by saying Jesus was God (or something similar) therefore it was God sacrificing himself.

That's what depresses me about religions - they can always get round anything.

And I'm not sure if it's because the Holy Books illustrate a very high level of wordcraft, as in some high calibre poetry. In such poetry, there are often several interpretations, all viable. I just think with religious texts, sometimes we're not dealing with average prose, but maybe with really high calibre poetry and with experts at working with words and meanings and nuances and putting in references to previous and future events and so on. I suppose there's some of that and some is more like history and propoganda and whatever other ways there are of writing. After all isn't the Bible the voice of a particular nation, the Hebrews? And it's more than that, it's like a sacred reliquary (/container of holy relics), it's like the foundation of the Hebrew - Jewish - Israelite nation. So I think the words have been put together with the utmost care.


Well, these are just some ideas of where my thinking's at regarding the Bible.

What am I trying to say? You'll never bash religion out of anyone. You'll never shock them even with facts from their own Holy books. I have Christian friends who are quite aware of the horrific stuff in the Bible. And they agree it is horrific, but it doesn't shake them. I think the reason is, they get round it because they see Jesus as a kind of remodelling of the Old Testament God. The nasty old Testament God has been superceded by the so-called loving Jesus-God. The Old Testament is kind of old news to Christians? The New Testament - Jesus - is where we're now at?



Post Edited (Tue 07 Aug 16:37)
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Tue 7 Aug 16:37

What you forgot to say OAUTP was there was no preceding scriptures to Wotsit's contentions therefore no background or an outline to illuminate the full story.

It's a common ploy for those wishing to diminish the Bible.
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Tue 7 Aug 16:45

I'm no expert Richie, being as I'm not religious it's pretty difficult for me to get my head round it. I just took it that Wotsit was illustrating that there's a lot of really nasty stuff in the Bible, and I agree there is. But for believers there are ways round it. I gave one - Jesus. Is it what you meant when you posted:

<<<As for the last example nothing to do with sacrifice and everything to do with love.>>> ?



Post Edited (Tue 07 Aug 16:53)
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Tue 7 Aug 17:05

It's not about "a way around it" it takes serious research,not some random text with no explanation of context and meaning.
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Tue 7 Aug 17:23

I know it's not about 'a way around it' to you Rich, but that's how it seems to me and I guess to other secularists (non-believers). I'm just being plain-speaking about it. I hope at some point, believers will see why non-believers have genuine problems with believing. I try to show some understanding of your side but to be plain again - if you are interested in helping us to understand (and there's no reason why you should be, except out of kindness maybe?), could you try and find a way of maybe summing up what I appreciate must be a lot of research on your part?

I mean some basic principles can be put simply can't they? And isn't one of them what I said about the OT God being superceded by Jesus? Isn't that an important idea a non-believer has to grasp if she/he wants to understand a believer?



Post Edited (Tue 07 Aug 21:49)
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Tue 7 Aug 17:31

I would start in Genesis 1.It claims to be accurate history.There are no hidden meanings or allegory.
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Tue 7 Aug 17:48

Ref: richie5401
Date: Tue 7 Aug 17:31

<<<It claims to be accurate history.There are no hidden meanings or allegory>>>

Well you know why non-believers have problems with that. We've discussed a few of those problems on the forum.

Nae bother. I'm away for ma dinner now. 👍😁



Post Edited (Tue 07 Aug 19:06)
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: red-star-par  
Date:   Tue 7 Aug 21:09

Religion is just a method of control. Probably the thing I find most distasteful about it is the way these religious fanatics try to ram it down everyone else's throat. They can't just be satisfied doing whatever they do at their place of worship or in their own home. They always have to be out there peddling their propaganda. I find it really sinister to be honest. They prey on people that are at their lowest ebb, on the poor, the young, the bereaved. Very much in the same way drug pushers do.
Personally, if this was my site I would tell them to peddle their nonsense elsewhere- there are too many impressionable people on here
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: Opelfruitloops  
Date:   Tue 7 Aug 21:18

Quote:

richie5401, Tue 7 Aug 13:25

Child sacrifice to false gods isn't something that should be allowed to flourish.

Maybe you disagree.


Child sacrifice isnt good but killing everyone in that country is not the answer. In fact thats even worse. Not only did the adults die but the children as well. Then there was the raping of women before they were slaughtered. But you seem to be OK with that. Think you might be a bit sick

Be true to who you are
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Wed 8 Aug 00:42

There was no raping of Midianite women.The young women were taken as wives(to be) or servants and they had rights under the Mosaic law.

Numbers 31:16-18 clarifies the matter.
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Wed 8 Aug 00:47

"Religion is a method of control".Correct...avoid it at all costs.Jesus gave multiple warnings about it.Matthew 23:27-28 was a particularly scathing example.
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: Rastapari  
Date:   Wed 8 Aug 06:42

Quote:

richie5401, Wed 8 Aug 00:42

There was no raping of Midianite women.The young women were taken as wives(to be) or servants and they had rights under the Mosaic law.

Numbers 31:16-18 clarifies the matter.


"Taken as wives" aye...so raped then.

I Hope You're Ok Today....
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Wed 8 Aug 11:43

Why do threads like this get hijacked and taken off into completely unrelated territory? We were talking about contemporary issues, not biblical ones!

As a matter of principle, I don't like banning topics, but I am rapidly coming round to the view that discussing religion should be banned from dotnet. So many interesting threads have descended into chaos because of it.
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Wed 8 Aug 11:56

The women who were of age would have been wives and were commanded by law to be treated well.
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: richie5401  
Date:   Wed 8 Aug 11:58

The are not unrelated Oz.The holocaust-Israel-The History of Israel.
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: calpar  
Date:   Thu 9 Aug 02:28

I've been looking up, fair enough, mostly on interweb, but also a book, dictionary, and definition of semite, is basically someone who speaks from a language from many years ago, including, and not excluding, jews, arabs, etc etc

So, my question is, how come, if semite is both arabic and jewish, how can corbyn be anti-semite ? Or indeedthe labour folks?b
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Thu 9 Aug 02:29

Ref: calpar
Date: Wed 1 Aug 22:06

<<<I don't know anyones denies it, but its difficult to sympathise when the persecuted become the persecutors and carry out illegal occupation of land that doesnt belong to them, and other such atrocities to the people who live there, imo>>>

The persecuted become the persecutors?

That's not true at all. It's as if to say the ones who died in the gas chambers are the same people who are authorising Israeli military operations against the Palestinians now. I don't understand how it could be correct to generalise in that way, as if to say all citizens of a country past, present and future are as guilty of the government's foreign policies at any given time as the government and military authorities themselves.

To put it another way, you can be certain a lot of folk died in the gas chambers who would not have supported Israel's anti-Palestinian activities now: including children and people who hadn't the slightest desire for conflict or to occupy anyone else's land.

I really don't get how you think sympathising with the Palestinians today justifies a lack of sympathy for those who died in the death camps.

Are you really saying you're not capable of sympathising with those who died in the death camps simply because they were Jews?



Post Edited (Thu 09 Aug 02:40)
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: calpar  
Date:   Thu 9 Aug 02:44

No, upandstuff
Imho
We are more than 2? Generations away, do you want to still blame the beautiful German people for their previous generations failures?
The state of Isreal is an illegal state under UN law, if you respect UN law, they really dont exist, do they ?

I dont object at all to
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Thu 9 Aug 03:51

Sympathising with those massacred in the death camps does not equate to blaming the ''beautiful German people''. Neither has it anything to do with the legality of the state of Israel, not least because it didn't exist at the time of those massacres.

As for UN Law, 161 UN member states recognise Israel, 31 do not. So clearly it exists to many people, if not to you. But that's something else that's irrelevant to the matter of sympathy for holocaust victims.


<<<The state of Isreal is an illegal state under UN law, if you respect UN law, they really dont exist, do they ?>>>

BTW, even if the state of Israel didn't exist, THEY - Israelis - do. So, wrong again if you think you said something clever there.

You started to say you <<<don't object at all to>>> (something.) Did you nod off?



Post Edited (Thu 09 Aug 03:53)
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Thu 9 Aug 04:26

<<You started to say you <<<don't object at all to>>> (something.) Did you nod off?>>


Seeing as it was 2.44am in the UK, he very probably did nod off...

:)
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: calpar  
Date:   Thu 9 Aug 11:26

I'll raise your UN article 161, to 181 as yours is the wrong continent

The founders, and perhaps still current influence on the current regime of racism and hatred towards the indigenous population within the Illegal state of Israel, are perhaps the 'lucky'? survivors of those horrific atrocities committed against European Jewish people, however, it doesnt give those people the right to set up an Illegal land grab, and subsequently treat the people already living there like they had no belonging or rights

The West, and US in particular are as culpable and complicit in this, its sickening
I'd rather see this stance against the scum of Saud ! IMO

Look up article 2334, from 2016?
Its quite interesting



Post Edited (Thu 09 Aug 11:38)
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: Opelfruitloops  
Date:   Thu 9 Aug 12:16

Oz. I always try and keep religion out of any discussion about Isreal. I'm accusing the Israeli government of war crimes. I'm not accusing the Israeli people. However I'm so many occasions I've attacked Israel for attrocities, illegal settlements, their wall etc someone will call me out as anti Semitic. I even had to get the Fife Free Press to withdraw a comment after I was one of the guest speakers at a rally in support of Palistine. So I'm afraid whether we like it or not religion and Israel go side by side

Be true to who you are
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Thu 9 Aug 16:44

Ref: calpar
Date: Thu 9 Aug 11:26

<<<I'll raise your UN article 161, to 181 as yours is the wrong continent>>>

Boy are you consistent! I wasn't talking about UN article 161 as is obvious but you keep TRYING to be clever. Article 181 has nothing to do with the holocaust either.

And if you've got something against holocaust survivors, what have you got against those who DIDN'T survive that makes it hard for you to have sympathy for them?

Sure, the illegal land grab is diabolical and the west and US are culpable. That's plain for anyone to see. Sure, the Israeli government has a heck of a lot to answer for and the Palestinians are being badly treated. So UN article 2334 declares Israeli land-grab illegal. Who would disagree with that?

The problem is, trying to justify having a lack of sympathy for people who died in the holocaust, as you have done, on the basis that they are the same people who are currently committing atrocities against the Palestinians is plain wrong.
.



Post Edited (Thu 09 Aug 16:55)
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Thu 9 Aug 16:50

"The state of Isreal is an illegal state under UN law, if you respect UN law, they really dont exist, do they ?"

Israel has been a continuous UN member since 1949 - so how is it illegal ?
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: calpar  
Date:   Fri 10 Aug 01:21

Oneupetc

I refer you to my initial post

Dont try and change my words to suit your 'misinformed' agenda
Must try harder bro
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Fri 10 Aug 11:27

Ref: calpar
Date: Fri 10 Aug 01:21

<<<Dont try and change my words to suit your 'misinformed' agenda
Must try harder bro>>>

I don't have to try that hard calpar, your original post is explicit. But first, to put your comments in context: the thread title is 'the Holocaust' and the previous post to yours (which you appear to respond to) was:

<<<Anyone that denies it should be shown round Auschwitz! Then let them try to deny it!>>> (DRFC_no1, Wed 1 Aug 20:18)

Followed by yours:

<<<I dont know anyones denies it, but its difficult to sympathise when the persecuted become the persecutors and carry out illegal occupation of land that doesnt belong to them, and other such atrocities to the people who live there>>> (Wed 1 Aug 22:06)

In other words, you don't know anyone who denies [the holocaust], but it's difficult to sympathise [regarding the holocaust] when the persecuted [i.e. victims of the holocaust] become the persecutors.

Now to your post of Thu 9 Aug 11:26:

<<<The founders, and perhaps still current influence on the current regime of racism and hatred towards the indigenous population within the Illegal state of Israel, are perhaps the 'lucky'? survivors of those horrific atrocities committed against European Jewish people, however, it doesn't give those people the right to set up an Illegal land grab, and subsequently treat the people already living there like they had no belonging or rights>>.

More simply:

<<<The founders [of the Israeli state], and perhaps... current influence on [the Israeli state], are perhaps the... survivors of [the holocaust], however it doesn't give those people [your words:'European Jewish people'] the right to set up an illegal land grab [etc...]>>>

I agree with you the land grab can't be justified. But how does that result in you finding it difficult to sympathise with victims of the holocaust?

I don't have an agenda and I'm not misinformed. But you could have made your view clearer by just saying you find it difficult to sympathise with holocaust victims or survivors because they were, as the Israeli government are, Jews.



Post Edited (Sat 11 Aug 11:03)
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: calpar  
Date:   Sat 11 Aug 19:59

onandup...
Holy moley ! 😳
You have put a lot of effort into twisting my words, i'll get back to you
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: calpar  
Date:   Sun 12 Aug 12:27

I was going to rant in reply to yours, about what sympathy actually means, but tbh, its each to their own in that respect, when does it stop though ?

Regards the holocaust, the survivors of which their legacy is Israel, I dont currently like that legacy, perhaps some of them dont either?

To your twisted words, I dont dislike jewish people, nor do I dislike Bosnian muslims, or Rwandan hutus/tutsis ? but I sympathise with the victims of those atrocities, perhaps more rhan the holocaust because I grew up through that period, how does that make me against jews?
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: PARrot  
Date:   Sun 12 Aug 12:38

Quote:

calpar, Sun 12 Aug 12:27

I was going to rant in reply to yours, about what sympathy actually means, but tbh, its each to their own in that respect, when does it stop though ?

Regards the holocaust, the survivors of which their legacy is Israel, I dont currently like that legacy, perhaps some of them dont either?

To your twisted words, I dont dislike jewish people, nor do I dislike Bosnian muslims, or Rwandan hutus/tutsis ? but I sympathise with the victims of those atrocities, perhaps more rhan the holocaust because I grew up through that period, how does that make me against jews?


You refuse to accept anything about the situation coming from a Jewish perspective as anything other than propaganda.
This gives the impression you dont like them.

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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sun 12 Aug 16:08

REf: calpar
Date: Sun 12 Aug 12:27

If you are not anti-Jewish, you have given an excellent impression of being anti-Jewish and blind to your own prejudices.

The subject of this thread is the HOLOCAUST.

Your words:

<<<its difficult to sympathise when THE PERSECUTED BECOME THE PERSECUTORS. >>>

So who do you have difficulty in sympathising with?

And who were the persecuted?



Post Edited (Sun 12 Aug 16:13)
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: calpar  
Date:   Sun 12 Aug 16:47

i refer you to my original response, where its referring directly to the holocaust, as this thread is about, nothing has changed
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: calpar  
Date:   Sun 12 Aug 16:58

Parrot, you seem to be easily impressed
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sun 12 Aug 17:38

Ref: calpar
Date: Sun 12 Aug 16:47


Evidently you've got difficulty answering simple direct questions.

I'll try again - who do you have difficulty sympathising with?

Who were the persecuted?
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: Rastapari  
Date:   Sun 12 Aug 18:37

Quote:

PARrot, Sun 12 Aug 12:38

Quote:

calpar, Sun 12 Aug 12:27

I was going to rant in reply to yours, about what sympathy actually means, but tbh, its each to their own in that respect, when does it stop though ?

Regards the holocaust, the survivors of which their legacy is Israel, I dont currently like that legacy, perhaps some of them dont either?

To your twisted words, I dont dislike jewish people, nor do I dislike Bosnian muslims, or Rwandan hutus/tutsis ? but I sympathise with the victims of those atrocities, perhaps more rhan the holocaust because I grew up through that period, how does that make me against jews?


You refuse to accept anything about the situation coming from a Jewish perspective as anything other than propaganda.
This gives the impression you dont like them.


So...elighten me as to what is being fired at Israel that warrants white phosphorous and bunker busters?

I Hope You're Ok Today....
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Sun 12 Aug 19:01

Have the “bunker busters” not been deployed against tunnels ?
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: donj  
Date:   Sun 12 Aug 20:15

The Holocaust was horrible and I have seen Auschwitcz which was terrible but sympathy for the hell those poor people suffered does not stop sympathy for the Palestinians.

Both are or were wrong and it does not make anyone anti semitic to say Israel the country is wrong and they are committing the same acts as were committed against their own people.
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sun 12 Aug 20:52

<<<Both are or were wrong>>>

Correct donj,

but it does make someone anti-semitic if they let their feelings about the Israeli government prejudice them against other Jews as has been shown on this thread.



Post Edited (Sun 12 Aug 20:53)
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: calpar  
Date:   Sun 12 Aug 22:38

Must try harder Oneonly etc
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: calpar  
Date:   Mon 13 Aug 00:45

Someone needs to look up the meaning of semite, again 🙄
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: calpar  
Date:   Mon 13 Aug 07:53

Slip of the finger there



Post Edited (Mon 13 Aug 07:58)
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Mon 13 Aug 10:01

Ref: calpar

Anti-semitic, according to Oxford Dictionaries:

'Hostile to or prejudiced against Jews.'

(source:) https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/anti-semitic


Ref calpar, referring to the holocaust:

<<< its difficult to sympathise when the persecuted become the persecutors >>>

Prejudice: as you posted, you have difficulty sympathising with people killed in the holocaust, because like the Israeli government, they were Jews.

The way out of the prejudice trap here is to wake up and realise that people killed in the holocaust had nothing to do with the Israeli government.

If you want someone from the past to blame, maybe you should direct your hostility towards David Ben-Gurion, of whom it is said,

"Ben-Gurion is the man principally responsible for the anti-Arab policy, because it was he who moulded the thinking of generations of Israelis."

(source: Nahum Goldmann, The Jewish Paradox A Personal Memoir, translated by Steve Cox, 1978, pp. 98, 99, 100. As cited in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Ben-Gurion David Ben-Gurion, Attitude towards Arabs.)



Post Edited (Mon 13 Aug 11:13)
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: Rastapari  
Date:   Tue 14 Aug 16:24

The Samson Option.
Worth a read.

The zealots are usually quiet when that is brought up.

I Hope You're Ok Today....

Post Edited (Tue 14 Aug 18:50)
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Tue 14 Aug 19:12

The Samson Option

That is interesting and quite startling, Rasta.

But we're moving away from the subject of the Holocaust there so I think I'll start another thread.

See The Samson Option thread.
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: Rastapari  
Date:   Tue 14 Aug 19:18

Quote:

onandupthepars, Tue 14 Aug 19:12

The Samson Option

That is interesting and quite startling, Rasta.

But we're moving away from the subject of the Holocaust there so I think I'll start another thread.

See The Samson Option thread.


Like I said...the zealots go quiet on this one.

I Hope You're Ok Today....
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: calpar  
Date:   Fri 17 Aug 08:08

You can ignore Ben Gurion in the politics of Israel and the legacy of the holocaust ?
Or you are saying they are not connected ?


I have edited to add, I have not formed my opinion recently, I didnt/havent lived through the last 70 years in Palestine, probably like yourselves, i recommend a read if a book called O Jersualem, based on that, is how I have formed my opinion
I recommend that as a read for anyone with an interest in Isreal

The definition of semite, is anyone historically spoke such a language, including arabs and jews
That would infer, anti-semetic includes anyone on that basis, including arabs ? Naw ?
Jews dont own semite (ism?) nor by that anti-semite(ism?)
seems to be popular tho, and now I recently heard the ' international definition of anti-semitic' well who the fk decided that ?



Post Edited (Fri 17 Aug 10:17)
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 Re: The Holocaust
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sat 18 Aug 14:40

Ref: calpar (Fri 17 Aug 08:08):

Well well, who would have thought it - words can have more than one meaning. Clearly when I used a dictionary definition for the term 'anti-semitic' I should have said so, or checked with you first to see if it was OK to use a word, the meaning of which I had just checked with a dictionary before I used it.

Ref: calpar as above:

<<< You can ignore Ben Gurion in the politics of Israel and the legacy of the holocaust ? Or you are saying they are not connected ? >>>

As I posted, Ben-Gurion's influence on Israeli politics is said to be considerable . (1)

If by "the legacy of the holocaust" you mean what you posted earlier about the founders of the Israeli state and SOME survivors PERHAPS having an ongoing influence on Israeli state actions towards Palestinians, and you insist - as you appear to be doing - on that as justification for your statement <<< it's difficult to sympathise when the persecuted become the persecutors>>, then you have compounded your anti-semitism as indicated in example eleven of the International definition:

"Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel." (2)

And <<< who the fk decided >>> on the International definition of anti-semitic?

"The definition was an offshoot of one created in 2005 by ... the EU's anti-racism body." (3)


<<< O Jerusalem >>>

There are several books with that title.

Author?

(BTW, the word you should have used was 'imply' not 'infer'. Worth looking at a dictionary once in a while, otherwise it's easy to assume you know the meaning(s) of a word when you don't.)


sources:

(1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Ben-Gurion

(2) & (3) https://www.thejc.com/comment/analysis/what-is-the-ihra-definition-of-antisemitism-and-why-has-labour-outraged-jews-by-rejecting-it-1.467511)



Post Edited (Sat 18 Aug 22:29)
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