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 Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: Rastapari  
Date:   Sun 7 Jul 19:04

Paedophile pal Epstein arrested, wonder if that sex slave story will stay hidden or resurface?

I Hope You're Ok Today....
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sun 7 Jul 19:48

Is this another hidden secret conspiracy busted. The rich and powerful protected again.

Turn on, Tune in, Drop out.
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Mon 8 Jul 08:38

Never liked Andrew. Always seemed to get himself into dodgy situations, suggesting (perhaps quite strongly) that he is, actually, dodgy.

Don't usually go for conspiracy theories, but there sure are a lot of big names getting mentioned in this Epstein case.
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: Rastapari  
Date:   Mon 8 Jul 10:50

Quote:

The One Who Knocks, Sun 7 Jul 19:48

Is this another hidden secret conspiracy busted. The rich and powerful protected again.


Witnesses paid off, I know if I was innocent not one penny would be parted with.

I Hope You're Ok Today....
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Mon 8 Jul 23:58

Quote:

OzPar, Mon 8 Jul 08:38

Don't usually go for conspiracy theories, but there sure are a lot of big names getting mentioned in this Epstein case.


“He’s a lot of fun to be with... ... it is even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do, and many of them are on the younger side.” Donald Trump on Epstein in 2002.

Also, the guy who got Epstein such a ridiculously lenient deal is now in Trump's cabinet.

Diane Abbott for PM.

Post Edited (Mon 08 Jul 23:58)
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: PARrot  
Date:   Tue 9 Jul 10:02

I wonder what the Mike Pence sudden emergency disappearance that, "Will take a few weeks to explain" is all about.

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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: Rastapari  
Date:   Wed 10 Jul 06:55

Quote:

PARrot, Tue 9 Jul 10:02

I wonder what the Mike Pence sudden emergency disappearance that, "Will take a few weeks to explain" is all about.


I'm wondering where .net's establishment defence league has gone😂

I Hope You're Ok Today....
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Wed 10 Jul 09:23

I’ve never heard of Mike Pence, what’s his claim to “fame” ?

That apart, Carl Beech’s revelations at Newcastle Crown Court anybody ?

Convicted peadophiles make good witnesses right enough.

Update - VPOTNUS - the name didn’t register !!!



Post Edited (Wed 10 Jul 09:59)
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: PARrot  
Date:   Wed 10 Jul 18:16

Quote:

veteraneastender, Wed 10 Jul 09:23

I’ve never heard of Mike Pence, what’s his claim to “fame” ?

That apart, Carl Beech’s revelations at Newcastle Crown Court anybody ?

Convicted peadophiles make good witnesses right enough.

Update - VPOTNUS - the name didn’t register !!!


Yep. Doing some cleaning up for the Trumpet methinks.

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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Wed 10 Jul 18:31

Nothing would surprise me about Trump and his inner circle.

Still embarrassed that I could’nt recognise the name of VPOTUS.

DOH !!!
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Wed 10 Jul 19:18

Aye that's a hammer blow to your rep VE. 😁👍

Turn on, Tune in, Drop out.
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Wed 10 Jul 20:53

He could sit next to me in the Norrie and I’d be none the wiser !!!
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Wed 10 Jul 22:02

Don't worry, vee, he probably wouldn't know you either.
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: Rastapari  
Date:   Thu 11 Jul 06:51

Child sex trafficking involving powerful public figures.....aaaaaand here come the usual laughing and joking.
And folks wonder why they get away with it.

I Hope You're Ok Today....
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: PARrot  
Date:   Thu 11 Jul 07:54

Out of order Rasta. Nobody is joking about it.

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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Thu 11 Jul 08:51

It seems this guy isn't getting away with it though despite being rich and powerful. Of course if people didn't make allegedly false reports about the rich and powerful being involved in this vile and disgusting abuse then genuine claims would stand out more prominently. You'd almost think that some of the more outlandish claims were deliberately put out there for that very purpose.

Turn on, Tune in, Drop out.
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Thu 11 Jul 09:46

What Parrot said.
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: Captain Desmond Fancey  
Date:   Thu 11 Jul 10:35

"And folks wonder why they get away with it."

Yep because a couple of people on a Dunfermline forum talking about the relative anonymity of Mike Pence is sure to result in them getting away with it.

Over-reaction, much ?
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Thu 11 Jul 11:26

<<Of course if people didn't make allegedly false reports about the rich and powerful being involved in this vile and disgusting abuse then genuine claims would stand out more prominently. >>


Absolutely hit nail on the head there, TOWK.

While those QAnon clowns were inventing the fantasy of Pizzagate which, let's not forget, was repeated on here ad infinitum by certain posters, the real crimes were occurring in plain sight in Manhatten, Florida and the Virgin Islands.

I wouldn't be too confident that Epstein will get what's coming to him. There is already talk of a plea bargain where, in exchange for a much-reduced five-year sentence (out in two years or so), Epstein provides the names of those who paid him to have sex with children.

But here's the thing: The really big names would never need to hand over money for such things; it would be seen as a gift from Epstein to be redeemed, one way or another, later.

And so, those prominent men we would most like to see exposed and taken to task, escape Scot-free... as per usual.
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Thu 11 Jul 12:48

"Of course if people didn't make allegedly false reports about the rich and powerful being involved in this vile and disgusting abuse then genuine claims would stand out more prominently."

Absolutely.

The issue for the police is that they have to investigate all claims, and be seen to be investigating them.

However when there is clear and strong evidence to indicate allegations as false then the claimant(s) should face the consequences, then perhaps we might expect a reduction in malicious accusations.
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Thu 11 Jul 13:01

Quote:

veteraneastender, Thu 11 Jul 12:48

"Of course if people didn't make allegedly false reports about the rich and powerful being involved in this vile and disgusting abuse then genuine claims would stand out more prominently."

Absolutely.

The issue for the police is that they have to investigate all claims, and be seen to be investigating them.

However when there is clear and strong evidence to indicate allegations as false then the claimant(s) should face the consequences, then perhaps we might expect a reduction in malicious accusations.


It's hard enough for people who have been abused to come forward as they think they won't be believed.
Now you want them to run the risk of being jailed themselves if their abuser says it is a "malicious accusation "
Bring this in and expect to see an increase in kids being raped as paedophiles escape justice and are free to continue.
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Thu 11 Jul 13:09

No - there would have to be strong and clear evidence that the allegations are false.

One persons word against the other does not fall into that category.



Post Edited (Thu 11 Jul 13:09)
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Thu 11 Jul 13:25

Quote:

veteraneastender, Thu 11 Jul 13:09

No - there would have to be strong and clear evidence that the allegations are false.

One persons word against the other does not fall into that category.


You say that but victims would be more afraid to come forward leading to more kids being raped.
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Thu 11 Jul 16:34

I don’t buy that, sorry.

Opinions differ.
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Thu 11 Jul 21:11

You don't have to buy it, it's not a matter of opinion, it is an established fact that people who have been raped and abused tend not to act according to your standard of logic or common sense.

Trauma is a hell of a drug.
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Thu 11 Jul 21:36

VE isn't disputing that though.

Turn on, Tune in, Drop out.
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Thu 11 Jul 21:57

He's disputing the fact that many people will be even more afraid to come forward.

When, by doing so, they open themselves up to criminal charges, a risk which they wouldn't face if they didn't come forward.

That's not open to debate: it is an established fact.

Diane Abbott for PM.
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Thu 11 Jul 22:07

Some people, not all, not even a sizable minority, do make false claims. That's an established fact.

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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Thu 11 Jul 22:12

And prosecuting them isn't the answer.

Diane Abbott for PM.
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Thu 11 Jul 22:15

Well yes it is. If its malicious, if its totally unfounded.

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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Thu 11 Jul 22:56

"And prosecuting them isn't the answer."

It is if there is clear and credible evidence that their accusations are false and malicious.

Or maybe you think that Carl Beech (for example) should not be facing criminal charges ?
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: Andrew283  
Date:   Thu 11 Jul 23:27

Yeah sorry, but I agree with VEE here. The whole system needs completely reworked for how cars involving rape etc happen as right now you can get instances like the Neymar case, where there is blatant proof the girl has tried to frame him, even going so far as to try and secretly record him from the bathroom, whilst goading him to strike her by hitting him herself. Not a chance in hell someone like that should be free to continue gallivanting around when if she hadn't made such an utter erse of her attempt, his entire career, reputation would be ruined and he'd likely see serious jail time.

On the other hand, its already nigh on impossible to prove without a doubt rape has occurred if not reported almost immediately.

Frankly there's no ideal system I can think of, but I really think first cases should remain totally anonymous until after court proceedings etc have finished, and if found guilty, then it can be reported upon and further victims brought forward. The system is currently far too open for abuse
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: Captain Desmond Fancey  
Date:   Fri 12 Jul 11:22

"And prosecuting them isn't the answer."

What is the answer then, great wise one?

Anybody proven to be making deliberately false accusations - particular ones as vile as these - should feel the full weight of the law. No exceptions.
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Fri 12 Jul 16:00

So you are happy to prevent rape victims from feeling comfortable about coming forward for fear of imprisonment?

Diane Abbott for PM.
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: Captain Desmond Fancey  
Date:   Fri 12 Jul 16:53

No rape victim should have anything to feel uncomfortable if they're telling the truth as justice will - or at least should - be served.

You, on the other hand seem comfortable with the idea that perfectly innocent people should be outed as guilty and have their lives destroyed?

Only one person should be questioning themselves here and it sure isn't me
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Fri 12 Jul 17:17

Oh, they shouldn't feel uncomfortable should they?

That's them telt!

I'll just tell the victims of the thousands of rapes that go unreported that their trauma from having been violated is imaginary, according to world's most pompous man, and the problem will be solved.

Diane Abbott for PM.

Post Edited (Fri 12 Jul 17:18)
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Fri 12 Jul 17:38

Quote:

Wotsit, Fri 12 Jul 17:17

Oh, they shouldn't feel uncomfortable should they?

That's them telt!

I'll just tell the victims of the thousands of rapes that go unreported that their trauma from having been violated is imaginary, according to world's most pompous man, and the problem will be solved.


All victims and accused deserve the right to anonymity until the trials are over. Then the accused is either convicted or not. If not it should be down to the judge whether the victims name can be released. Because as we know even if not convicted it doesn't mean they are innocent.
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: Captain Desmond Fancey  
Date:   Fri 12 Jul 18:01

Nothing quite like having my words twisted, but then I'd expect no less from you.

A very close friend of mine was subject to such an assault at a very young age so I am very familiar with the trauma caused. What I meant - and shouldn't really have to explain myself - is that they should not fear reporting the crime if the crime actually happened.

And I stand by my point that anybody purposely falsifying an accusation should be hammered by the full force of the law
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Fri 12 Jul 18:53

"I'll just tell the victims of the thousands of rapes that go unreported that their trauma from having been violated is imaginary, according to world's most pompous man, and the problem will be solved."

Lots of rape victims don't come forward because they can't face more trauma - such as an intimate medical examination and the possibility of having to face the alleged perpetrator in court, as well as the harrowing experience of cross examination by the defence counsel.

Not for fear of being prosecuted for false witness or perjury.

As moviescot says, such cases should be striclty anonymous, for the benefit of both parties until a verdict is reached.
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: Rastapari  
Date:   Fri 12 Jul 20:17

Classy victim blaming....
Thank **** I know none of you in real life you utter cretins.

I Hope You're Ok Today....
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: Captain Desmond Fancey  
Date:   Fri 12 Jul 20:44

"Thank **** I know none of you in real life you utter cretins."

Something I can finally agree with you on then.
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Fri 12 Jul 20:55

On the subject of victim’s Rasta, have you resigned from the Nick Fan Club yet, do you still reckon he’s still nothing more than a flawed character ?
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Fri 12 Jul 21:05

Quote:

veteraneastender, Fri 12 Jul 20:55

On the subject of victim’s Rasta, have you resigned from the Nick Fan Club yet, do you still reckon he’s still nothing more than a flawed character ?


What evidence do the police have he lied?
Not been following trial so just wondering.

The one thing I saw was that he had said he was terrified of water and they had photos of him in the sea.
Seemed flimsy to me as I am scared of water as I nearly drowned once but have still been in the sea since.
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Fri 12 Jul 21:24

"What evidence do the police have he lied?
Not been following trial so just wondering."

By his own admission, for starters.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/07/08/vip-accuser-nick-admits-lied-police-court-hears/

Turns out he has a previous conviction for paedophilic tendancies as well.
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Fri 12 Jul 21:50

Quote:

veteraneastender, Fri 12 Jul 21:24

"What evidence do the police have he lied?
Not been following trial so just wondering."

By his own admission, for starters.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/07/08/vip-accuser-nick-admits-lied-police-court-hears/

Turns out he has a previous conviction for paedophilic tendancies as well.


The fact he has himself got conviction for this makes him more credible not less since many victims go on to offend. They end up with a distorted image of adult/child relationships due to what happened to them.

Will read telegraph story when I get home later.
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Fri 12 Jul 22:05

"The fact he has himself got conviction for this makes him more credible not less since many victims go on to offend. They end up with a distorted image of adult/child relationships due to what happened to them."

I suspect you have misunderstood ?

Carl Beech was the perpetrator, not a victim.

He had illegal images of children on his laptop, hidden by two layers of innocent looking app logos (as I understand his camouflague attempt) - and he had taken video footage of a boy urinating.
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: da_no_1  
Date:   Fri 12 Jul 22:14

I'd like to think that we live in a world where the rights of a genuine victim are equal to those of someone wrongly accused of any crime.

It would appear not. Sad times.

"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Sat 13 Jul 00:46

Quote:

veteraneastender, Fri 12 Jul 22:05

"The fact he has himself got conviction for this makes him more credible not less since many victims go on to offend. They end up with a distorted image of adult/child relationships due to what happened to them."

I suspect you have misunderstood ?

Carl Beech was the perpetrator, not a victim.

He had illegal images of children on his laptop, hidden by two layers of innocent looking app logos (as I understand his camouflague attempt) - and he had taken video footage of a boy urinating.


Think you misunderstood.
Victims of abuse often go on to be abusers.

Had a look at his "lies" to the police.
When first interviewed he said he didn't know the abusers identities.
He later revealed the names.
This would be pretty normal behaviour if he thought he wouldn't be taken seriously due to the high profile nature of the individual's he accused.

Have just read some background to the allegations.
He had been undergoing therapy for abuse for 2 years before the allegations were made to the police.

I have no doubt he has been a victim of abuse by someone.
I have no idea if those he accused were involved. He may well be guilty of fabricating that.
Be interesting to see how the trial goes.
So far I see no evidence presented that shows he is definitely lying.
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Sat 13 Jul 02:53

Quote:

Captain Desmond Fancey, Fri 12 Jul 18:01
they should not fear reporting the crime if the crime actually happened.

And I stand by my point that anybody purposely falsifying an accusation should be hammered by the full force of the law


I didn't twist your words then, did I? Because you repeated the pompous imposition that people shouldn't feel something when many definitely do.

And I stand by my statement that opening victims up to potential criminal charges as a result of reporting it if their coward rapist (or their lawyer) is manipulative enough, or they are confused enough, in court will put some people off reporting the crime.

It's also worth pointing out that wasting police time and perjury are already illegal, and will be charged when in the public interest, so do you want false rape allegations to be extra illegal? To have a law which specifically only applies to a person who reports a rape?

Diane Abbott for PM.

Post Edited (Sat 13 Jul 02:57)
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Sat 13 Jul 07:36

"Have just read some background to the allegations"

Best read all the trial reports.

The famous quote attributed to Lincoln applies here IMO

"You can fool some of the people all of the time.....etc., etc."



Post Edited (Sat 13 Jul 07:59)
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Sat 13 Jul 11:37

Often when people have experience trauma they basically relive it whenever they talk about it, unless the topic is approached extremely sensitivity by a trained trauma practitioner.

Defence lawyers and police officers are not usually trained trauma practitioners, so the experience of being questioned in an adversarial way can illicit quite bizarre responses from people. Their thinking becomes extremely confused and erratic and fight or flight kicks in. People who have experienced trauma should never have to be exposed to this sort of questioning, it serves no useful purpose of our goal is to find the truth.

Diane Abbott for PM.
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: Andrew283  
Date:   Sat 13 Jul 12:28

I understand a lot of viewpoints here, but let's take Neymars accuser as an example. After all the attempts of trying to get evidence of Neymar abusing her all she has proved is how crazy she is, should this woman go unpunished? I'm sorry but that is utter nonsense if you're in her court.
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Sat 13 Jul 12:58

"Defence lawyers and police officers are not usually trained trauma practitioners,"

The police have specially trained officers who deal with rape allegations operating within specalised dedicated units.

They work with appropriate external qualified personnel when assessing individual cases.

As for defence lawyers - they are quite at liberty to make the defendant take the stand and subject them to the same level and nature of intimate and personal questioning as the accuser.

Not a desirable scenario for either party, but that's the nature of our court system.



Post Edited (Sat 13 Jul 13:49)
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Sat 13 Jul 13:58

specially trained officers

But those are rare and rape is not.

There are still far too many stories of people being treated appallingly when they make an allegation of rape, or of people withdrawing the allegation because the process is too difficult.

The court ordeal is more than enough to put people off. Our court system rewards defence lawyers who make witnesses uncomfortable and distressed to the point where they doubt themselves and their evidence because they are being forced to relive, in intricate detail, a highly traumatic event, and they will probably be doing so for the second or third time as a result of choosing to report what happened to them.

I understand a lot of viewpoints here, but let's take Neymars accuser as an example. After all the attempts of trying to get evidence of Neymar abusing her all she has proved is how crazy she is, should this woman go unpunished? I'm sorry but that is utter nonsense if you're in her court.

Like I said, in most places it is already illegal to waste police time by making false reports and to lie in court. It's up to the authorities to determine whether or not to apply those laws in specific circumstances, but I see no good coming from making an extra law that specifically applies to people who report rape.

Diane Abbott for PM.
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Sat 13 Jul 14:40

"The court ordeal is more than enough to put people off."

Exactly what I said yesterday at 18:53.

"But those are rare and rape is not"

All 43 police forces in England and Wales have specially trained officers - and 1/3 of them operate within specialised units.

There should be one in every authority of course.

Scotland has its own specialised staff.



Post Edited (Sat 13 Jul 14:41)
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Sat 13 Jul 14:53

They don't have enough officers to process the rape kits; do you honestly think that everyone who provided this seemingly overwhelming backlog of evidence has been seen, at every stage, by a specially trained officer? I would say that it is reasonable to assume that this is nowhere near being the case, sadly.

And we all know that having attended a training course doesn't really mean anything: that training also needs to be applied.

Diane Abbott for PM.
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Sat 13 Jul 15:14

"I would say that it is reasonable to assume that this is nowhere near being the case, sadly."

Best that neither of us make assumptions.
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: red-star-par  
Date:   Sat 13 Jul 22:25

I see Epstein has got bail and is allowed out under house arrest. It's expected he will get some leniency for naming names. Whats the betting he will be found with half a dozen gunshots to the head having committed suicide
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Sun 14 Jul 00:30

Quote:

veteraneastender, Sat 13 Jul 15:14

"I would say that it is reasonable to assume that this is nowhere near being the case, sadly."

Best that neither of us make assumptions.


I chose my words carefully, I backed them up and I stand by them.

Diane Abbott for PM.
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: Rastapari  
Date:   Sun 14 Jul 08:01

The usual suspects sticking up for establishment criminals.
Sickos.

I Hope You're Ok Today....
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sun 14 Jul 09:01

Trying too hard now Rasta.

Turn on, Tune in, Drop out.
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 Re: Prince Andrew sweating it?
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Sun 14 Jul 11:49

Which criminals Rasta ?

Name them etc.

Oops, I forgot ......... you don't do sources.



Post Edited (Sun 14 Jul 11:50)
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