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 Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Mon 8 Jun 08:11

Many of us will have seen TV footage of the statue of the Bristol merchant and slave trader, Edward Colston, being pulled down and rolled into the waters of the nearby harbour.

I had never heard of Colston before yesterday, but I'm not surprised that many local people found his statue's presence offensive and that the local council had received numerous requests for it to be removed. The requests obviously fell on deaf ears, no doubt because Colston left Bristol a considerable proportion of his wealth when he died and which was put to good use by the city, meaning something good came from something evil.

There must be similar statues erected to former slavers throughout the UK. I'm fairly certain there's one in Edinburgh whose name escapes me. I wonder if their future will now be reconsidered, in light of yesterday's events.

As a citizen of Dunfermline for 60 years, I've had plenty of reasons to be grateful for the considerable philanthropic donations made to the town by Andrew Carnegie. He made his fortune in America and wasn't a slaver, of course, but he's not exactly highly thought of in cities like Philadelphia. Much of his fortune was down to using cheap, African American labour. Technically, they weren't slaves, but they were paid a pittance, meaning they were never going to do much more than struggle to survive.

It makes me uncomfortable to think that the image we have of some benefactors, in various towns and cities, is a bit detached from reality. Perhaps the time has come to reassess their contributions and tell it as it is, rather than afford them all legendary status. If, in some cases, that means taking down statues, or changing street names, so be it.



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Mon 8 Jun 09:48

No, a thousand times No.

I utterly reject the notion that we should be going around our cities seeking out statues of folk who may have digressed in some way in the past in the opinions of some people today. There was a reason for their statue to be placed there at the time and we should respect that.

I'm seeing the same thing here in Oz with folk deliberately damaging statues of Captain James Cook, who to me is a hero, a brave and brilliant navigator and explorer, but to others is the primary reason Australia was stolen from the Aboriginals.

If we carry on with this approach to reappraising history, we will have very few statues left as there will always be some reason to find fault in any individual, no matter how famous.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Mon 8 Jun 09:55

Huge can of worms G.G.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: widtink  
Date:   Mon 8 Jun 10:21





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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: parsmad68  
Date:   Mon 8 Jun 10:56

Duke of Sutherland. Should we remove that because we are Scottish?

I think history is better served if it is fully understood. The Duke of Sutherland monument is abhorrent but a reminder of how people should be treated fair in any walk of life.
Also the correlation for the demonstrations and slavery are weak at best. In fact I listened to a number of protestors and I feel they are protesting about everything without an understanding or focus.
I heard a demonstrator at the weekend say that the UK now is built upon slavery. What nonsense. It was a thing of the past-Abhorrent. But it doesn’t define the UK. Following that logic I could say the UK is a mess because of the people from slavery.

Let’s follow the removal of the statue of Lord Colston, by removal of the Duke of Sutherland by mob rule.
LET’S NOT. Let’s learn about who he is, what he did, or did not do. Let us educate ourselves of the facts rather than follow social media law.

Colston was involved in a time when slavery was condoned by church and Government alike. By mob rule, let’s take action on any institution that may have been connected with this.
LETS NOT. It is vandalism and illegal.
The minute mob rule takes over becomes a very dangerous day indeed.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Mon 8 Jun 12:03

Sorry to break this to you but the UK is actually built on slavery parsmad68.

Read a history book if you don't believe me but basically the amount of wealth brought into this country on the back of slavery is astonishing and a HUGE portion of our national infrastructure and heritage exists as a direct result of the resources our ancestors misappropriated (looted) from black and Asian people.

Did you know that we only finished paying off the loans we took out to pay reparations for the slave trade in 2015?

Sadly these reparations (around £200 billion in today's money) were paid to the slave OWNERS rather than to the folk they enslaved. That's your tax money and mine that went to pay off slave owners when slavery was abolished. That's not just history.

Henry Dundas (the racist leering over St Andrew's Square) was a shameful individual who delayed the ending of slavery in the Caribbean by decades for personal financial gain - that's definitely a part of our history which should be remembered, but should it REALLY be commemorated or honoured?

There is a good reason why there are no statues of Hitler in Berlin, are you suggesting that Berliners don't understand their history?

The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel the warmth.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: BigJPar  
Date:   Mon 8 Jun 12:08

Quote:

parsmad68, Mon 8 Jun 10:56

Duke of Sutherland. Should we remove that because we are Scottish?

I think history is better served if it is fully understood. The Duke of Sutherland monument is abhorrent but a reminder of how people should be treated fair in any walk of life.
Also the correlation for the demonstrations and slavery are weak at best. In fact I listened to a number of protestors and I feel they are protesting about everything without an understanding or focus.
I heard a demonstrator at the weekend say that the UK now is built upon slavery. What nonsense. It was a thing of the past-Abhorrent. But it doesn’t define the UK. Following that logic I could say the UK is a mess because of the people from slavery.

Let’s follow the removal of the statue of Lord Colston, by removal of the Duke of Sutherland by mob rule.
LET’S NOT. Let’s learn about who he is, what he did, or did not do. Let us educate ourselves of the facts rather than follow social media law.

Colston was involved in a time when slavery was condoned by church and Government alike. By mob rule, let’s take action on any institution that may have been connected with this.
LETS NOT. It is vandalism and illegal.
The minute mob rule takes over becomes a very dangerous day indeed.


Very conformist of you. I'd be up there in a shot to pull down the duke of sutherland statue at golspie.
The fact it's still there is an outrage.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: irishmcbride  
Date:   Mon 8 Jun 12:17

To provide a little bit of context on the Colston statue...

GG is right, there have been calls for a number of years to do something with the statue; remove it, add some context, whatever, as there has been with other parts of his legacy in the city. Bristol Cathedral has turned The Colston Window into a memorial to slavery, and the Colston Hall announced last year that they'll be renaming the venue after the current refurbishment is complete. Doing something to the statue has long been the popular choice in the city.

A few years ago Bristol City Council agreed to add a plaque to the statue adding context, spent two years dragging their heels they quietly dropped the whole scheme. At the same time they ripped up Broad Quay, where the statue is situated and re-did the whole area, and did precisely nowt to the statue.

By inaction, BCC created the conditions in which the statue would get pulled down at the first opportunity. They have no-one but themselves to blame. Their priority has seemingly been spending the (completely extortionate) council tax pounds on making Clifton nicer, to the detriment of the rest of the city.

The statue was never even popularly raised in the first place, it was a vanity project by a wealthy merchant who had to largely fund it himself because he couldn't convince the public, or even the various Colston societies, to stump up donations. This has been a long time coming.

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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: parsmad68  
Date:   Mon 8 Jun 13:14

Quote:

Wotsit, Mon 08 Jun 12:03

Sorry to break this to you but the UK is actually built on slavery parsmad68.

Read a history book if you don't believe me but basically the amount of wealth brought into this country on the back of slavery is astonishing and a HUGE portion of our national infrastructure and heritage exists as a direct result of the resources our ancestors misappropriated (looted) from black and Asian people.

Did you know that we only finished paying off the loans we took out to pay reparations for the slave trade in 2015?

Sadly these reparations (around £200 billion in today's money) were paid to the slave OWNERS rather than to the folk they enslaved. That's your tax money and mine that went to pay off slave owners when slavery was abolished. That's not just history.

Henry Dundas (the racist leering over St Andrew's Square) was a shameful individual who delayed the ending of slavery in the Caribbean by decades for personal financial gain - that's definitely a part of our history which should be remembered, but should it REALLY be commemorated or honoured?

There is a good reason why there are no statues of Hitler in Berlin, are you suggesting that Berliners don't understand their history?


Sorry still don’t agree. The GDP of the UK had shown no change with or without the abolition of slavery act, prior or post 1834. Understand what you are saying from the book but the numbers don’t equate to the discussion. Also in a modern day economy that has dramatically increased the GDP since the First World War how can this be anything to do with slavery?
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: BigJPar  
Date:   Mon 8 Jun 13:26

Quote:

parsmad68, Mon 8 Jun 13:14

Quote:

Wotsit, Mon 08 Jun 12:03

Sorry to break this to you but the UK is actually built on slavery parsmad68.

Read a history book if you don't believe me but basically the amount of wealth brought into this country on the back of slavery is astonishing and a HUGE portion of our national infrastructure and heritage exists as a direct result of the resources our ancestors misappropriated (looted) from black and Asian people.

Did you know that we only finished paying off the loans we took out to pay reparations for the slave trade in 2015?

Sadly these reparations (around £200 billion in today's money) were paid to the slave OWNERS rather than to the folk they enslaved. That's your tax money and mine that went to pay off slave owners when slavery was abolished. That's not just history.

Henry Dundas (the racist leering over St Andrew's Square) was a shameful individual who delayed the ending of slavery in the Caribbean by decades for personal financial gain - that's definitely a part of our history which should be remembered, but should it REALLY be commemorated or honoured?

There is a good reason why there are no statues of Hitler in Berlin, are you suggesting that Berliners don't understand their history?


Sorry still don’t agree. The GDP of the UK had shown no change with or without the abolition of slavery act, prior or post 1834. Understand what you are saying from the book but the numbers don’t equate to the discussion. Also in a modern day economy that has dramatically increased the GDP since the First World War how can this be anything to do with slavery?


You are incredible. Britain profited greatly from the slave trade, it's a matter of fact not up for debate.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: BigJPar  
Date:   Mon 8 Jun 13:27

You'll be telling us the Holocaust didn't happen next.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: parsmad68  
Date:   Mon 8 Jun 14:00

Quote:

BigJPar, Mon 08 Jun 13:26

Quote:

parsmad68, Mon 8 Jun 13:14

Quote:

Wotsit, Mon 08 Jun 12:03

Sorry to break this to you but the UK is actually built on slavery parsmad68.

Read a history book if you don't believe me but basically the amount of wealth brought into this country on the back of slavery is astonishing and a HUGE portion of our national infrastructure and heritage exists as a direct result of the resources our ancestors misappropriated (looted) from black and Asian people.

Did you know that we only finished paying off the loans we took out to pay reparations for the slave trade in 2015?

Sadly these reparations (around £200 billion in today's money) were paid to the slave OWNERS rather than to the folk they enslaved. That's your tax money and mine that went to pay off slave owners when slavery was abolished. That's not just history.

Henry Dundas (the racist leering over St Andrew's Square) was a shameful individual who delayed the ending of slavery in the Caribbean by decades for personal financial gain - that's definitely a part of our history which should be remembered, but should it REALLY be commemorated or honoured?

There is a good reason why there are no statues of Hitler in Berlin, are you suggesting that Berliners don't understand their history?


Sorry still don’t agree. The GDP of the UK had shown no change with or without the abolition of slavery act, prior or post 1834. Understand what you are saying from the book but the numbers don’t equate to the discussion. Also in a modern day economy that has dramatically increased the GDP since the First World War how can this be anything to do with slavery?


You are incredible. Britain profited greatly from the slave trade, it's a matter of fact not up for debate.


I am not debating that. What I am saying is that modern UK is not built on that in terms of GDP output. Modern society is what I am considering.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Mon 8 Jun 14:18

The GDP is created, still is, largely using infrastructure built using slave money. The monuments and statues to slavers in our major cities attest as much.

Slavery wasn't abolished by the 1833 act by the way - just in Britain's Caribbean colonies. We still owned slaves in India and Ceylon. That tea wasn't going to pick itself after all! Basically, The East India Company was given a monopoly on slave trading within the British Empire.

You are still misunderstanding the sheer scale of the wealth that was stolen from Africa and Asia during this time - both in terms of human and natural resources.

Why is there an Afro-Carinbean population in the UK? Why is there even an Afro-Caribbean population at all? Why didn't we compensate the populations we stole from but rather the people who had been stealing?

This isn't just history - this is alive in current British society.

The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel the warmth.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: parsmad68  
Date:   Mon 8 Jun 14:20

Quote:

BigJPar, Mon 08 Jun 13:27

You'll be telling us the Holocaust didn't happen next.


What an appalling thing to say. Did you attend the anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz-Birkenau.
No? Well I did.
Shame on you.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Mon 8 Jun 14:50

If the Bristol protestors had not pulled down the Colston statue and flung it in the harbour it would still have been standing 20 years from now. Can you imagine the howls of outrage from the Rees Moggs and Piers Morgans had the local authority voted to remove it? Tommy Robinson and his boys might even have mounted a 24 hour guard to protect it. So, good riddance in my book.

Ozpar worries that if we carry on like this then there will be no statues left. I would welcome an end to idolatry. That includes statues of rich benefactors like Carnegie and Colston, politicians like Donald Dewar and also the trend for player statues to be placed outside football grounds.

Statues of actual people will always arouse controversy and are best not put on public display. Statues that capture the achievements of what a man or woman or society has done are fine and usually have some artistic merit as well. Here are some good and some bad from where I live.


A bit cheesy but it captures the idea of the proletariat. Much less controversial than the ones of Lenin in his billowing overcoat pointing to the future.



The face looks nothing like Gagarin but given his alcohol problem and treatment of his wife maybe just as well. If Greenpeace activists ever want to pull it down they will have a problem: it’s 42 metres high and weighs 12 tons.



A very disturbing collection of sculptures symbolising the evil visited on children by the adult world. Grotesque and powerful.



The frontier guard is ever watchful for encroaching fascists and his loyal companion has lost the colour of its nose since Muscovites touch it for good luck.



This statue represents a stray dog called Malchik who was much loved by the staff and passengers at Mendeleyevska metro station, until one terrible day a disturbed woman knifed him to death. A collection box inside the metro raised enough funds for this statue which for me says that inside a cold unsmiling city none can survive without compassion.



The Muscovites are a bit indulgent with their metro dogs though.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Mon 8 Jun 15:12

If we followed your reasoning sammer, all they would have left in Edinburgh would be Greyfriars Bobby...

:)
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: Paralex  
Date:   Mon 8 Jun 15:58

My late Aberdonian Church of Scotland minister in Glasgow once mentioned Andrew Carnegie in a sermon emphasising that his great wealth was partly based on the poor wages he paid to his workers. We can't go back and change history but we can learn from it. Maybe some things like Virginia Street in Glasgow and the many big mansions in the West End, now subdivided into flats serve as a reminder of where we have come from and challenge us never to go down that road again. We are currently in the process of washing our hands of the European problem of a refugee crisis from North Africa and West Asia and turning a blind eye to the suffering of many. Not our problem? That's what the British Parliament said of the slave trade in view of William Wilberforce's actions to abolish it.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: ipswichpar  
Date:   Mon 8 Jun 16:23

Are the likes of Jeff Bezos any different?
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Mon 8 Jun 16:32



I like this one in Edinburgh.



You can even celebrate military heroes.



Or long horses.



Or feet.



Or fictional characters.

The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel the warmth.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: Paralex  
Date:   Mon 8 Jun 16:46

Might find it slightly difficult to identify statues in Scotland of men involved in slavery. Glasgow has statues of Rabbie Burns and the likes of Robert Peel but not many slave dealers, I think. But I do have a photo in a book of Jefferson Davis, the former president of the American south during the civil war, sitting in the front garden of a Glasgow villa some years after the war. But no statue of him.

That however would recriminate the former owner of the villa in association with slavery but I doubt if the present owners would welcome their title to the property questioned in relation to historic events.



Post Edited (Mon 08 Jun 16:51)
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Mon 8 Jun 17:03

Quote:

OzPar, Mon 8 Jun 15:12

If we followed your reasoning sammer, all they would have left in Edinburgh would be Greyfriars Bobby...

:)


And Bum the Dog (no, really) in Princes Street gardens.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Mon 8 Jun 17:07

Was Carnegie involved in slavery? I thought he was the opposite and rejected it.

He was seemingly a fairly mean man who paid a pittance and destroyed workers rights. He clearly saw the light given all his subsequent contributions and quote about it being a disgrace to die rich.

You don't get to the top without kicking people down on the way up. Look at our local Amazon depot where one of the richest men in the world is paying people a pittance to run his operations. Will Bezos be contributing all his fortune to good causes?
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: Paralex  
Date:   Mon 8 Jun 17:22

Looks like Carnegie was operating his steel business just after the American Civil war which was the beginning of the end for slavery in the US. I suppose his meanness towards his workers applied equally to white as well as black labourers. But in light of his overwhelming generosity to underprivileged Americans, Scots and many others I hope his statue in Pittencrief Park is not trifled with. Oops I've just given the location but I'm sure no miscreant Pars supporter would dare tamper with it.



Post Edited (Mon 08 Jun 17:28)
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Mon 8 Jun 17:31

Carnegie certainly took full advantage of the influx of cheap, desperate, labour in urban centres during reconstruction era USA.

I imagine that if emancipated slaves had been given the equivalent of £300billion to help themselves transition out of slavery then Carnegie wouldn't have had quite the same success.

The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel the warmth.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: BigJPar  
Date:   Mon 8 Jun 17:31

Quote:

Paralex, Mon 8 Jun 15:58

My late Aberdonian Church of Scotland minister in Glasgow once mentioned Andrew Carnegie in a sermon emphasising that his great wealth was partly based on the poor wages he paid to his workers. We can't go back and change history but we can learn from it. Maybe some things like Virginia Street in Glasgow and the many big mansions in the West End, now subdivided into flats serve as a reminder of where we have come from and challenge us never to go down that road again. We are currently in the process of washing our hands of the European problem of a refugee crisis from North Africa and West Asia and turning a blind eye to the suffering of many. Not our problem? That's what the British Parliament said of the slave trade in view of William Wilberforce's actions to abolish it.


Anyone with any knowledge of the slave trade would know there is a very clear difference between paying someone as little as you can and trading in human life.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Mon 8 Jun 17:45

Reason I mentioned Carnegie was because I saw a rocket on twitter claiming his statue (and name in general) should be removed from everything in Dunfermline.

No doubt a Langtouner who may want to check the context in which Adam Smith said slavery should be abolished (it was in the context that slaves weren't good value for money...)
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Mon 8 Jun 18:15

It would be rather ungracious to remove Carnegie’s statue from the Glen since it was him that bought the land and gave it to the people of Dunfermline. So the Glen is a public space but only because he made it one. If the statue was to be removed, the Carnegie Trust might have the right to lock the gates for all I know, so best leave things as they are.

Carnegie’s relatives on the mother’s side were named Morrison and were involved in probably the most serious rioting Dunfermline has known, back in 1842. They were unemployed weavers turned militant when the power looms replaced their cottage industry. Some buildings in the town were set alight and there was talk of raiding an arms depot in Halbeath to continue the fight after troops were sent over from Edinburgh to restore order. It makes the present disorder look rather feeble by comparison.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: Paralex  
Date:   Mon 8 Jun 18:33

Don't think I or my late minister was insinuating that Carnegie was involved in the slave trade BigJpar.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Mon 8 Jun 18:34

Scotland played a significant role in the slave trade, and slave owners of Scottish descent prospored in America.

Incredible as it may sound, some slaves spoke Gaelic as their first tongue due to their owners background.

Closer to home, the founding benefactor of Dollar Academy was a ship owner who profitted from the trade.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: Paralex  
Date:   Mon 8 Jun 18:48

And while the concept is reprehensible some slave owners were exceedingly kind to their slaves and greatly loved by them.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Mon 8 Jun 19:32

Paralex wrote:

> And while the concept is reprehensible some slave owners were
> exceedingly kind to their slaves and greatly loved by them.

So ****ing what?

In what way does that justify kidnap and forced servitude for multiple generations?

The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel the warmth.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: BigJPar  
Date:   Mon 8 Jun 19:40

Quote:

Paralex, Mon 8 Jun 18:48

And while the concept is reprehensible some slave owners were exceedingly kind to their slaves and greatly loved by them.


That there is an apologist for racism.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Mon 8 Jun 19:46

Telt ye G.G. :)
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: BigJPar  
Date:   Mon 8 Jun 19:47

That's church going folk for you. Salt of the earth
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Mon 8 Jun 20:00

Many of the prime movers in the abolition of slavery movement were motivated by their religious beliefs, including Wilberforce.

The Quaker movement in Pennyslvania was very important in ending slavery in that state around the time of the Revolutionary War.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: wetherby  
Date:   Mon 8 Jun 20:17

I have only recently finished reading “Uncle Tom’s Cabin” a very harrowing read. I would recommend it for anyone wanting an insight into slavery in the US.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: doctordandruff  
Date:   Mon 8 Jun 22:26

Someone mentioned Berlin would never have a Hitler statue, on the contrary Germany, and particularly Berlin is facing up to its past now by not throwing statues into rivers. They mark where Hitler died, the site of the SS headquarters is now a large public 'museum' about the SS where they do not pass blame. Any building that played a prominent role in the war has a plaque explaining what it was for.

And every time Merkle walks into the chamber in the Reichstag she walks passed an exposed piece of wall which was vandalised by Russian soldiers when they captured the building in 45.

Bristol , Glasgow, Liverpool etc shouldve foowed Berlin's lead
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: BigJPar  
Date:   Mon 8 Jun 22:32

Quote:

doctordandruff, Mon 8 Jun 22:26

Someone mentioned Berlin would never have a Hitler statue, on the contrary Germany, and particularly Berlin is facing up to its past now by not throwing statues into rivers. They mark where Hitler died, the site of the SS headquarters is now a large public 'museum' about the SS where they do not pass blame. Any building that played a prominent role in the war has a plaque explaining what it was for.

And every time Merkle walks into the chamber in the Reichstag she walks passed an exposed piece of wall which was vandalised by Russian soldiers when they captured the building in 45.

Bristol , Glasgow, Liverpool etc shouldve foowed Berlin's lead


So, do they have statues or not?
Do they have streets named after him or his associates?

Both the above are seen as seen as symbols of affection.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: Paralex  
Date:   Mon 8 Jun 22:35

No apologies necessary, just stating a fact that some Africans stolen from their own country and brought to the Americas were saved from a dire situation by being bought by benevolent and caring owners who inspired love from their charges. The alternatives would have been to be bought by brutal owners or left to drift in a society with no means of surviving. How is that apologising for the concept of slavery. It is reprehensible to all who live in the free world.



Post Edited (Mon 08 Jun 22:35)
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: Paralex  
Date:   Mon 8 Jun 22:46

There are examples of slaves being offered freedom by benevolent owners and the offer not being accepted because the surrounding society was so hostile to former slaves that they wouldn't have been able to survive. Great kindness and grace can be found in the most surprising places.But perhaps not too often here by some who are happy to twist comments to their own advantage.



Post Edited (Mon 08 Jun 22:49)
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Mon 8 Jun 22:52

Holy s**t

The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel the warmth.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: doctordandruff  
Date:   Mon 8 Jun 22:57

No, de-nazifying Germany was official policy of the occupying countries so there are no statues etc. But if you walk about the Olympic park you are walking around a massive Nazi monument and it feels it. It was in ruins, but rather than demolish it they refurbished it. Even rebuilt the bell tower. And the role of the Olympics etc is clearly explained in and around the complex
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: BigJPar  
Date:   Mon 8 Jun 23:14

Quote:

Paralex, Mon 8 Jun 22:46

There are examples of slaves being offered freedom by benevolent owners and the offer not being accepted because the surrounding society was so hostile to former slaves that they wouldn't have been able to survive. Great kindness and grace can be found in the most surprising places.But perhaps not too often here by some who are happy to twist comments to their own advantage.


There is no need to twist this post. It's there for all to see.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: Kintos  
Date:   Mon 8 Jun 23:50

If this does become common practice, where would it end? Don't think it could stop at just statutes of historical/reprehensible figures. The Colosseum would surely be in the firing line using the applied logic and so too the Pyramids (albeit there is dispute as to whether slaves were used in their construction)

Genuinely not being facetious as I think a crucial precedent may be being set here.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Tue 9 Jun 01:09

I think there is a slight difference between a building and a statue. Buildings with an unsavoury past can be renovated and presented as part of a modern society, whereas that can't be done really with political statues. The Olympic Park is capable of being salvaged but that could not apply to a statue of Adolf Hitler.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: Paralex  
Date:   Tue 9 Jun 01:29

And in the most dire situation some of these dear enslaved people found such consolation in God that they produced some of the most sublime and memorable Christian hymns and songs ever written. God met with them in their distress.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: Thaipar  
Date:   Tue 9 Jun 01:45

Quote:

Paralex, Tue 9 Jun 01:29

And in the most dire situation some of these dear enslaved people found such consolation in God that they produced some of the most sublime and memorable Christian hymns and songs ever written. God met with them in their distress.


He should have bunged them some money. Think that would've been better than a song or two.

Please don't book me Admin, it will ruin my life.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: Paralex  
Date:   Tue 9 Jun 01:58

He gave them something much more precious than that and I would have loved to sit among them as they sang" I've got a home in glory land that outshines the sun" because they knew the truth of that better than any and you can sense the power of God in the songs. The eternal glories were powerfully real to them in their great suffering. Our great God can transform the darkest situation. My delight will be to sit with them in God's eternal glory and sing the songs of Zion.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: BigJPar  
Date:   Tue 9 Jun 06:08

I can't believe some of the absolute drivel being spouted on here.
It's heart warming to know slaves had a friend in Jesus as they were shackled and beaten. Great stuff
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Tue 9 Jun 06:22

Wow! Talk about lighting the blue touch paper and retiring to a safe distance....

Unlike Buspass, I don't see this thread as ''a can of worms,'' but rather a healthy, stimulating debate, in which anyone can put forward their point of view. My only concern is that some of us may feel so passionately about the topic that we become abusive towards those who hold a markedly different view.

My own view is that statues put up to honour men who made a fortune by selling other humans as slaves is just wrong. I understand that attitudes were probably different when these statues were originally erected and there were far fewer black people living in Britain. I'm white and I find them offensive, so God knows how anyone of African origin could find them acceptable. The fact that Colston and others like him, became benefactors after their death shouldn't cloud the issue - you can't take it with you, after all. The Edinburgh statue I referred to in the OP was that of Henry Dundas, which stands at the top of the Melville Monument. Dundas had much in common with Edward Colston.

I believe each case should be judged on its merits - or demerits. I don't subscribe to the idea that if we take down one statue, we have to take them all down. Let's look at their contribution to history and canvass public opinion in the local community. I don't think there would be many people in Dunfermline clamouring for the removal of Andrew Carnegie's statue in Pittencrieff Park and he neither bought nor sold slaves in any case, but maybe an explanatory plaque under the statue would be a good idea.



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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: BigJPar  
Date:   Tue 9 Jun 06:46

Quote:

GG Riva, Tue 9 Jun 06:22

Wow! Talk about lighting the blue touch paper and retiring to a safe distance....

Unlike Buspass, I don't see this thread as ''a can of worms,'' but rather a healthy, stimulating debate, in which anyone can put forward their point of view. My only concern is that some of us may feel so passionately about the topic that we become abusive towards those who hold a markedly different view.

My own view is that statues put up to honour men who made a fortune by selling other humans as slaves is just wrong. I understand that attitudes were probably different when these statues were originally erected and there were far fewer black people living in Britain. I'm white and I find them offensive, so God knows how anyone of African origin could find them acceptable. The fact that Colston and others like him, became benefactors after their death shouldn't cloud the issue - you can't take it with you, after all. The Edinburgh statue I referred to in the OP was that of Henry Dundas, which stands at the top of the Melville Monument. Dundas had much in common with Edward Colston.

I believe each case should be judged on its merits - or demerits. I don't subscribe to the idea that if we take down one statue, we have to take them all down. Let's look at their contribution to history and canvass public opinion in the local community. I don't think there would be many people in Dunfermline clamouring for the removal of Andrew Carnegie's statue in Pittencrieff Park and he neither bought nor sold slaves in any case, but maybe an explanatory plaque under the statue would be a good idea.


I see your point, however in the case of Carnegie I'm not sure what the plaque would say. Many of the billionaires of today have earned their wealth through paying low wages and disregard for unions.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: Paralex  
Date:   Tue 9 Jun 07:02

Obviously many of them did find a friend in Jesus and associated with Him in their sufferings and realised that there was a greater enslavement. They realised that being a bond slave to Christ was true freedom from the slavery of sin that was evident in their cruel persecutors. "For freedom Christ has set us free, do not submit then to the slavery of sin". Hallelujah what a Saviour".
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Tue 9 Jun 07:48

So Paralax, you're saying that as well as tearing people from their communities, raping, torturing and murdering them, the good Christian folk also brainwashed them into abandoning their traditional values, giving them no ties to home at all, thus destroying every sense of identity these people had that was separate from their owners' identity?

The bible's wholehearted endorsement of slavery won't help I suppose; it must be tough trying to resolve that cognitive dissonance.

The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel the warmth.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: doctordandruff  
Date:   Tue 9 Jun 09:01

The Olympic Park still has the Aryan statues at it. I'm not saying the Bristol statue shouldve been left in situ as a celebration, but could've almost be a centre piece in Bristol's role in the slave trade and how the slave traders were perceived. Rename the buildings and chuck the statues in the river and then in a few months its forgotten they ever existed.

Keep them on display in a sensitive and sensible way, explain their existence and you then face up to the past. That's the point I'm making about Berlin. Its all about admitting what's happened and not hiding it, in the hope that it will not repeat.

Post Edited (Tue 09 Jun 09:02)
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend  
Date:   Tue 9 Jun 09:16

The best place for statues such as this would be in museums,where people could be educated.

There's an often used phrase that "you learn more from your mistakes"

It would be wrong to hide unsavoury people, periods and moments from our history




It's bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Tue 9 Jun 10:41

People have learned more about the UK's complicity in the slave trade from this statue being chucked in the harbour than they did from however long it was allowed to stain the street.

The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel the warmth.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Tue 9 Jun 10:49

If we go down this road - where do we stop ?

https://blogs.ucl.ac.uk/survey-of-london/2016/08/19/cavendish-square-5-the-duke-of-cumberlands-statue/

Modern day Jacobites from North Britain hauling down "Sweet William" aka "The Butcher of Culloden" from his place in London ?
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Tue 9 Jun 10:55

I sent the link for this thread to a relative of mine who doesn't use Dotnet. I'm sure he won't mind me adding his comments.

"Really interesting. Tell Paralex, and one or two others, they are off their heads. I know the forum isn't for that, but good God you'd like to educate some folk who spout s***e. There is a great book by a black academic called The Debt: What America Owes to Blacks that makes a compelling case for the US paying reparation to all African Americans who come from slave stock, which is most of them. Some actually don't know what country their roots are in, which I find incredibly sad. The book also educated me on the effects the slave trade had on Africa, which we tend to think of as poor - and certainly some commentators on the forum think that way - but actually Africa was mainly rich, in many ways more advanced than Europe, with lots of trade going on as a result of its mineral wealth. What the American slavers did was not only enrich themselves by taking at gunpoint all the strongest, fittest people, raping and murdering who they wanted at the same time, they impoverished whole nations by taking their best, most able workers, male and female. Africa is poor because of slavery, and the UK and the US built their wealth on slavery. Of course, the French, the Dutch and the Belgians all have much to answer for as well, and their football teams have all benefited from that dodgy history. If I were Senegalese in origin, like Vieira, I wouldn't have played for France, but then I wouldn't have a world cup winners' medal! But then neither would the French players if you take the Africans out of both World Cup-winning sides. I know Italy gave it a try, but apparently we were never much good at being an occupying force. The soldiers' hearts weren't in it. They just wanted to be at home with their mammies. And I'm glad of it.



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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: Paralex  
Date:   Tue 9 Jun 11:53

When you grasp the glory of God in the gospel of Jesus Christ everything else fades into the background. When you experience the great love that God has for you. The free forgiveness of sins your heart overflows with gratitude to God. That has nothing to do with culture or ethnicity it is to do with a loving Heavenly Father bringing His children home to Himself. Many of the African American slaves found that and it overflowed in the songs they produced. If you want to find great love for God and the Christian gospel today, go to the countries of Africa. Many dear African brothers and sisters in Nigeria and Kenya, Malawi and Ghana live lives rejoicing in the goodness of God. Find Him yourselves brothers, let Scotland reverberate again with praise to God. Let's sing His praise before games at East End Park.



Post Edited (Tue 09 Jun 11:59)
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: BigJPar  
Date:   Tue 9 Jun 13:11

Quote:

Paralex, Tue 9 Jun 11:53

When you grasp the glory of God in the gospel of Jesus Christ everything else fades into the background. When you experience the great love that God has for you. The free forgiveness of sins your heart overflows with gratitude to God. That has nothing to do with culture or ethnicity it is to do with a loving Heavenly Father bringing His children home to Himself. Many of the African American slaves found that and it overflowed in the songs they produced. If you want to find great love for God and the Christian gospel today, go to the countries of Africa. Many dear African brothers and sisters in Nigeria and Kenya, Malawi and Ghana live lives rejoicing in the goodness of God. Find Him yourselves brothers, let Scotland reverberate again with praise to God. Let's sing His praise before games at East End Park.


This has to be a wind up. You're mental!
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Tue 9 Jun 13:21

Statues which commemorate events or symbolise ideas are entirely different from those which specifically honour individuals.

There's no slippery slope here - statues which honour those complicit in the slave trade have no place on the streets of modern Britain.

Most of these monuments were erected at a time when the country was awash with slave and Imperialism derived booty and, as such, they commemorate people who were considered important during that very narrow, and cruel, slice of our history - they don't represent all of our past, just a tiny aprt and monsters are very over-represented.

The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel the warmth.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Tue 9 Jun 13:25

Paralax - You start the singing of songs praising god at East End and we will see how many join in.

I find your views on slavery to be morally repugnant.
You don't like people swearing or saying Jesus Christ but keeping people in chains that's fine with you cause they produced some great gospel songs.
Thankfully most Christians are not like you.

Post Edited (Tue 09 Jun 13:26)
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: Paralex  
Date:   Tue 9 Jun 13:27

Who was it that said he had a dream? Oh yes, Martin Luther King. All of us should have a dream BigJ, a good dream not a bad one. That's my dream, that people throughout the world and in Scotland will, like so many of the African American slaves find new life in Christ and with it have the assurance of eternal life in the new Jerusalem. Six years ago when I was in Wuhan the pastor of a church there shook my hand and with a heart overflowing with love for Jesus he thanked me for the Christian missionaries from Scotland who brought the gospel to China. I feel the same about the 17 year old boy in my class at school who bravely stood up for Christ at great cost to himself and spoke words of life to me. Wonderful treasure and I dream of a day when our streets and stadiums and cinemas not just our churches will resound with praise to God. Because if we love doing that here, surely we will feel right at home in His eternal presence.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Tue 9 Jun 13:30

MLK dreamed about diversity, not a Christian monoculture.

The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel the warmth.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: Paralex  
Date:   Tue 9 Jun 13:30

I thought better of you than that sadindiefreak. That's just unfounded slander and not worthy of any further response.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Tue 9 Jun 13:33

How can you quote MLK while condoning slavery?
What utter scum you are.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: BigJPar  
Date:   Tue 9 Jun 13:37

Quote:

Paralex, Tue 9 Jun 13:30

I thought better of you than that sadindiefreak. That's just unfounded slander and not worthy of any further response.


I find your views disgusting. Can only assume your character is the same.
A racist dinosaur who has no place in modern Scotland. You'd feel more at home in Saudi Arabia
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: the saline hill puma  
Date:   Tue 9 Jun 15:17

[Post Deleted] - Rude or abusive message
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: Stoo  
Date:   Tue 9 Jun 15:57

Jings.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Tue 9 Jun 16:00

GG, you have got a lot to answer for, sunshine...

:)
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Tue 9 Jun 16:16

What a real shame. Just this morning, I commented that I didn't think the thread was a can of worms, but an opportunity for folk on this forum to debate their different points of view in a civilised manner. I see that SHP's post has been deleted. I didn't see it but I'm assuming it was aimed at Paralex, who has managed to upset several posters by attempting to insert a religious slant on this topic.

I'm very tolerant of people's religious beliefs, but I'm struggling to understand the points Paralex was trying to make. No doubt he is genuine but a bit misguided. I think it would be better to leave religious beliefs out of this thread altogether - there is another one titled God, just now, which would be more appropriate. To others I would respectfully suggest you don't reply to any posts in an abusive manner, no matter how much they upset you, otherwise you'll end up with a card(s) and potentially a ban. ☹



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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Tue 9 Jun 16:20

Quote:

OzPar, Tue 9 Jun 16:00

GG, you have got a lot to answer for, sunshine...

:)


I note the smiley, Oz, but there things have to be discussed and debated, rather than pretend they never happened. The trick is for everyone to keep calm and rational, even if you think another poster is spouting the most absolute tosh.

I don't think Captain Cook should have come up on this topic, btw. 🙂



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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Tue 9 Jun 17:05

Why? Do you not think this is relevant? Do you not see the parallel?
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Tue 9 Jun 17:06

Telt ye G.G.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: EEP  
Date:   Tue 9 Jun 17:12

Topic Originator: Paralex like | nolike
Date: Tue 9 Jun 11:53

When you grasp the glory of God in the gospel of Jesus Christ everything else fades into the background. When you experience the great love that God has for you. The free forgiveness of sins your heart overflows with gratitude to God. That has nothing to do with culture or ethnicity it is to do with a loving Heavenly Father bringing His children home to Himself. Many of the African American slaves found that and it overflowed in the songs they produced. If you want to find great love for God and the Christian gospel today, go to the countries of Africa. Many dear African brothers and sisters in Nigeria and Kenya, Malawi and Ghana live lives rejoicing in the goodness of God. Find Him yourselves brothers, let Scotland reverberate again with praise to God. Let's sing His praise before games at East End Park.


I don't have a clue what this Paralex character is on about. Sounds likes he's been brainwashed by a cult to me!
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Tue 9 Jun 17:42

Quote:

EEP, Tue 9 Jun 17:12

I don't have a clue what this Paralex character is on about. Sounds likes he's been brainwashed by a cult to me!


Or he is a cult.

Arrgghhh stupid autocorrect. 🤪
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Tue 9 Jun 18:26

Quote:

OzPar, Tue 9 Jun 17:05

Why? Do you not think this is relevant? Do you not see the parallel?


This thread was primarily about the erections of statues in honour of men who amassed vast fortunes by enslaving and selling other human beings. To the best of my knowledge, Captain Cook was not involved in this reprehensible practice and therefore irrelevant to these discussions. Perhaps you know something I don't, Oz?

This thread was going very well until Paralex jumped in to the debate. My view is that all the major Christian churches failed the Africans who were enslaved very badly. Instead of protesting at their treatment, they quietly acquiesced and even went along with those who described them as savages who were closer to animals than humans. By enslaving them, they were actually doing them a favour by civilising them, they reasoned.

Complete bollox!



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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Tue 9 Jun 18:35

Bigger Hole G.G.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Tue 9 Jun 19:40

Quote:

Buspasspar, Tue 9 Jun 18:35

Bigger Hole G.G.


BPP, you're one of the more sensible posters on this site so how's about making a proper contribution to the thread instead of sniping from the sidelines? 😚



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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: aaaaaaaaaargh  
Date:   Tue 9 Jun 20:42

Back on topic...

I think each case can be judged individually.
Bristol screwed up a bit by not taking this statue down earlier.
I think there was clear support to have it removed, and I think a lot of people now agree that a museum is a more appropriate place for the statue.

I personally wasn't impressed to see a mob pull it down, but it didn't surprise me that it happened. I was impressed with the police response, though.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Tue 9 Jun 20:49

Not a snipe G.G. and have always had the greatest respect for your constructive posts

I am not sure if this one was constructive tho

I am thinking you have realised this as well judging by your subsequent posts

Only my opinion G.G. and apologies if I have upset you

But if auld Andra goes missing I would like to check your shed

Take Care
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: DulochConvert  
Date:   Tue 9 Jun 21:14

I hope Cleopatra's Needle in London is next down with the amount of slaves Ramesses II had this shouldn’t be celebrated.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Wed 10 Jun 01:25

Churchill, of course, amassed a fortune selling slaves... as expected, this is getting completely out of hand.

As for Captain Cook, it is being argued that he created the environment for the enslavement of the whole Aboriginal nation.

Get it yet, GG???
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Wed 10 Jun 06:09

Quote:

DulochConvert, Tue 9 Jun 21:14

I hope Cleopatra's Needle in London is next down with the amount of slaves Ramesses II had this shouldn’t be celebrated.


If it was a statue of Rameses put up specifically to celebrate his contribution to civic life in London I'd agree.

The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel the warmth.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Wed 10 Jun 06:25

''Back on topic...

I think each case can be judged individually.
Bristol screwed up a bit by not taking this statue down earlier.
I think there was clear support to have it removed, and I think a lot of people now agree that a museum is a more appropriate place for the statue.

I personally wasn't impressed to see a mob pull it down, but it didn't surprise me that it happened. I was impressed with the police response, though.''

I couldn't have put that any better myself. Cheers.

''Not a snipe G.G. and have always had the greatest respect for your constructive posts. I am not sure if this one was constructive tho. I am thinking you have realised this as well judging by your subsequent posts. Only my opinion G.G. and apologies if I have upset you. But if auld Andra goes missing I would like to check your shed. Take Care.''

Not at all upset, BPP. Life's too short. Just prefer you to get involved in a positive manner. I don't regret starting this thread in the least. Better to face up to uncomfortable truths than sweep them under the carpet. Learn from history.

''Churchill, of course, amassed a fortune selling slaves... as expected, this is getting completely out of hand.

As for Captain Cook, it is being argued that he created the environment for the enslavement of the whole Aboriginal nation.''

Is this the kind of tosh being bandied about on social media in Oz, Oz? I hope I'm not getting the blame for that? :-(

Isn't there a statue of Christopher Columbus in Cadiz?

Oh fek! I just Googled him.

https://www.nbc12.com/2020/06/09/christopher-columbus-statue-torn-down-thrown-lake-by-protesters/



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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Wed 10 Jun 07:32

I'm wondering what circumstances should trigger the removal of a statue or monument?

It's not like we can just keep adding them without removing some or we'll end up with cities looking like some terracotta tomb.

I reckon that relevance to modern society should be the first criterion, and folk like Dundas simply don't pass even that test.

How many folk can tell me off the top of your head whose statues are along Princes Street on the gardens side of the road?

The fact that so many of our statues of people are folk from 300 years ago that none of us has ever heard of says a lot.

The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel the warmth.

Post Edited (Wed 10 Jun 07:33)
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Wed 10 Jun 08:14

<<Is this the kind of tosh being bandied about on social media in Oz, Oz? I hope I'm not getting the blame for that? :-(>>


GG, don't get me wrong, I can understand why you dismissed my Captain Cook comment. But I think it was unfair. I was simply drawing a parallel with what is happeing here in Australia and what was happening in Bristol.

If you are black, subjugation is subjugation whether it is through slavery or by occupation...

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-10/black-lives-matter-protests-renew-push-to-remove-statues/12337058

And a pox on the bar steward who defaced the Winston Churchill statue in Parliament Square. He would be living in a very different Britain today if Churchill had not been around to stand up to the Nazis.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Wed 10 Jun 08:41

The issue with Churchill is that he was a racist standing up to other racists.

You could probably find a racist element to almost all UK statues, mainly because almost all our statues are of white men.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Wed 10 Jun 08:55

Ah, I didn't realise Captain Cook was getting it in the neck, Oz. That really is taking things too far. Like Columbus, he was a pioneer, an explorer. They can't be held responsible for those who came after them. Kingston, on the other hand, was an out and out racist and not surprisingly, there will be many Australians who find his statue offensive.

Churchill was also undeniably racist, but I would imagine the vast majority of Brits are happy to overlook that, thanks to his efforts during WW2. He certainly acquitted himself better than Chamberlain, but - maybe this sounds a bit churlish - I think Hitler contributed to Nazi Germany's downfall far more than Churchill did. Maybe he'd never studied the history of Napoleon at school?



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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Wed 10 Jun 09:45

<<The issue with Churchill is that he was a racist standing up to other racists. You could probably find a racist element to almost all UK statues, mainly because almost all our statues are of white men.>>



You are not wrong about finding a racist element in most statues, Jake. See, this is where the issue gets a wee bit thorny...

Granted it is not as bad as it used to be, but you don't have to go back too far in time to find ingrained racism. As recent as the '60s and '70s, racism was rife in Britain.

While most folk under 40 today have a generally enlightened outlook on multiculturalism, it could be argued that most of the rest of us may have behaved in a racist manner to a greater or lesser extent at some time in our lives.

The first black guy that I saw was at my primary school. He wasn't called by his first name (which I don't think I ever knew); everyone called him "Sambo", as racist a name as you could imagine back then, though I wasn't conscious of the insult at the time.

Racism was all around us back then...

There was Enoch Powell's infamous "rivers of blood" speech, there was widespread support in the media for Ian Smith's unilateral declaration of independence for Rhodesia. We had golliwogs on jam jars and on TV there were shows like "Love thy Neighbour" and 'Till death us do part" where racism was the central theme.

There were white comedians like Jim Davidson and Bernard Manning who made their living bating coloured folk and black comedians like Charlie Williams who perpetuated the problem by making light of the racism he faced.

When we were taught history at school, it was with the British Empire in mind. History was firmly through British eyes. Africa was of no real importance until Dr Livingstone explored it and slavery was just a footnote in history classes, and even then, only in the context of William Wilberforce.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Wed 10 Jun 10:42

What is the purpose of a statue?
Or more specifically, what is the purpose of the statues on general display, e.g. in Central Edinburgh

Is it to celebrate an individual? Is it a community acknowledging the great achievements or actions of an individual? Is it to remember their part in the fabric of that country/city/community?

Genuine question, because if we can agree what they're for... that would surely help form an opinion

Ps I'm saying this as someone who grew up about 15-20 mins walk from all of these statutes, probably walked past them everyday for years and couldn't name (or even remember) a single one of them

Post Edited (Wed 10 Jun 10:43)
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Wed 10 Jun 12:27

"There were white comedians like Jim Davidson and Bernard Manning who made their living bating coloured folk and black comedians like Charlie Williams who perpetuated the problem by making light of the racism he faced."

Even back in the 1960s I was astonished that Alf Garnett got away with outrageous racist comments and attitudes on the BBC.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: doctordandruff  
Date:   Wed 10 Jun 12:35

I personally think Churchill is targeted because he is the ultimate icon of 'Britishness', particulary its past, and that is what is being attacked when they go for his statues.

In the attackers eyes they see a glorified white, old, upper-class man that is held up as a World saviour and they cant be 'avin that.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: Paralex  
Date:   Wed 10 Jun 12:48

One final post before I fade into the distance. I can't apologise for my passion for Christ and the gospel. I am not part of a strange sect. I was baptised as a child in Cairns Church of Scotland Cowdenbeath. I am a member of a Church of Scotland in Glasgow and if I am such a racist dynasaur, why do I have so many African and Asian friends and why do I subscribe to an Aid organisation that provides clean drinking water and farming techniques in African countries. I would challenge my vitriolic friends to ask themselves what they may be doing in their small corner to stamp out racism.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Wed 10 Jun 15:55

There's a fair bit of history being re-written here.

Till Death us do Part featured the racist Alf Garnett, a working class man who voted Tory and supported Enoch Powell and Mary Whitehouse. His creator drew him as a caricature to be laughed at and in all the scripts Alf came off second best. The audience reaction was more mixed: many enjoyed his racists rants and laughed with them, rather than at them. Johnny Speight was disappointed that many saw Alf as a loveable rogue rather than the blistering idiot he intended, but his intention had been to ridicule racism, not to support it.

A similar story with Love They Neighbour. The racist jibes and counterpunches of the two men were mocked by their wives who had a genuine regard for each other. Once again I am sure that some of the audience revelled in the racist abuse since it was to them an unspoken truth, or maybe because it was taboo, but the progamme in no way upheld racist values.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Wed 10 Jun 16:01

We had golliwogs on jam jars and on TV there were shows like "Love thy Neighbour" and 'Till death us do part" where racism was the central theme.


Where did I say that either of these shows upheld racist values, sammer???
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: da_no_1  
Date:   Wed 10 Jun 16:19

Tom and Jerry now comes with a racist warning too.

"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Wed 10 Jun 16:59

Gone with the wind has .....Gone with the wind
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Wed 10 Jun 17:10

OzPar,

Well you did lump in the two sit coms with Jim Davidson and Bernard Manning, two comedians who made a living from pandering to prejudice. I read it that you thought they were all part of the problem, whereas you were probably just describing the background.

Till Death us do Part was a tremendous concept and copied by All in the Family over in the USA. Yet in these more enlightened times the BBC dare not put any repeats on for fear of stoking racism. It seems to me we have moved backwards. I was brought up laughing at the racist Alf Garnett and his admiration for Enoch Powell and Mary Whitehouse. Now now we have Farage and Robinson being taken seriously enough to be interviewed by national media plus a censorship of controversial material way beyond the dreams of the Moral Majority.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Wed 10 Jun 17:35

Fair enough sammer. It is late at night here and I have a sore toothache that’s keeping me awake, so I am probably over-cranky at the moment. I loved Till Death. I thought it was a work of genius. The American version was pretty good too, though obviously toned down a bit to fit the American market.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Wed 10 Jun 18:02

Back on topic......

My relative sent me the message below, which he has agreed for me to share with my fellow Pars fans:-

"At the rally in Edinburgh on Sunday, Prof Geoff Palmer, who is Jamaican and actually named Godfrey, spoke first. I saw him a year ago at a literary festival in Dunbar, talking about Dundas. He is on a committee and had been for two years by then to decide on the wording for a new plaque on the statue. They have to agree the wording unanimously. An ancestor of Dundas is also on the committee. You can see why it’s still not sorted. He says he will keep saying ‘no’ until the plaque is honest about his wealth. At his talk last year, which was brilliant, witty as well as informative, he pointed out that the compensation paid to Dundas when slavery was abolished - 15 years late thanks to his efforts - was the equivalent of £80m in today’s money. His ancestors still live on land and in houses bought with the rape and murder of Africa. The very thought of slaves singing happily after being dragged from their homes to a life (on average they lasted ten years) of forced labour, beatings and sparse food, probably seeing their parents slaughtered and sisters raped as they went, is too awful to be funny. Some folk just fill their heads with s***e!"



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Wed 10 Jun 18:13

This is why we should be looking at wealth distribution. The family of Dundas obviously weren't involved in his deeds but they would not wish to give up the lavish lifestyle they enjoy. Why would anyone?
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Wed 10 Jun 18:22

An Ambassador for sure

But He and his wife have past relatives who received compensation


David Cameron has ruled out making reparations for Britain's role in the historic slave trade and urged Caribbean countries to "move on".

The prime minister acknowledged that "these wounds run very deep" during his visit to Jamaica, where he faced calls to apologise from campaigners.

He said Britain's role in wiping slavery "off the face of our planet" should be remembered.



https://www.telesurenglish.net/news/Britains-Loan-toPay-Off-Slave-Owners-Not-Repaid-Until-2015-20180223-0016.html



Post Edited (Wed 10 Jun 18:26)
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Wed 10 Jun 19:41

Before the George Floyd outrage, the US, especially the Deep South, was becoming increasingly engaged in opinions about statues of Confederate leaders from the Civil War era which are commonplace across relevant states.

There was brief news footage on TV the other night of one such offending figure being removed, in Kentucky, I think.

That is almost certain to polarise opinions and heighten tensions at this sensitive time.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Wed 10 Jun 20:32

He said Britain's role in wiping slavery "off the face of our planet" should be remembered.

"Listen, we have stopped brutally kidnapping, raping and murdering millions of people so why should I apologise?"

"Look, I realise that we kept the money we stole and left you in poverty but, seriously, stop whining and get over it"

The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel the warmth.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: Stoo  
Date:   Fri 12 Jun 12:18

Someone has painted "Racist King" and "Black Lives Matter" on Robert the Bruce statue in Bannockburn.

Im going to stick my neck out and say the people who did this are anti-BLM, no one can be that stupid. However, it is a fine way to turn people against the BLM movement in this country.



Post Edited (Fri 12 Jun 12:27)
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Fri 12 Jun 13:33

Quote:

Stoo, Fri 12 Jun 12:18

Someone has painted "Racist King" and "Black Lives Matter" on Robert the Bruce statue in Bannockburn.

Im going to stick my neck out and say the people who did this are anti-BLM, no one can be that stupid. However, it is a fine way to turn people against the BLM movement in this country.


I think you are almost definitely correct.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: Luxembourg Par  
Date:   Fri 12 Jun 14:33

<no one can be that stupid>

Methinks you are overestimating the intelligence of a number of the 'rent-a-mob' protestors...

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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Fri 12 Jun 15:37

Quote:

Luxembourg Par, Fri 12 Jun 14:33

<no one can be that stupid>

Methinks you are overestimating the intelligence of a number of the 'rent-a-mob' protestors...


If they do catch someone for this I can almost guarantee it is someone who is against BLM who is trying to stir up trouble.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: Stoo  
Date:   Fri 12 Jun 18:29

Well aye I suppose there are people that daft.

However, people that daft on the BLM "side" aren't worth giving much time, effort or credence to.

So while it is almost news worthy, it would have been better to get it cleaned up and not have mentioned it to the public at large.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: P  
Date:   Sat 13 Jun 14:03

I suspect it’s someone without a stance trolling for internet recognition of their acts - and being successful in achieving it


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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Sat 13 Jun 15:42

Some demonstrators protecting Churchill's statue in London are also giving the Nazi salute. Confusing.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Sat 13 Jun 16:21

It does seem bizarre at a first glance. But then look who are demonstrating: a motley bunch of political illiterates with a grounding in football hooliganism and the Hell's Angels.

Their complaint is not that Churchill has been accused of being a racist. Their complaint is that as far as they are concerned Churchill was indeed a racist and quite right too! These are white supremacists ( you don't see too many black Hell's Angels) who see in Churchill a colonial mindset that chimes with their own.
I'm no great fan of Churchill but he deserves better than this clearing house for cretinism.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Sat 13 Jun 17:00

I was suggesting the confusion was in their minds, apparently celebrating the scourge that Churchill was instrumental in defeating. I doubt that the irony occurs to them. They're just out to cause trouble.

There's now a picture of a man relieving himself against a memorial erected in honour of the policeman killed in the Westminster Bridge terrorist attack in 2017. It's not clear if this is some sort of 'gesture' or not but there must be a good chance he'll be identified.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Sat 13 Jun 17:24

As is mentioned on Twitter, "Pity they hadn't protected the public as well as they've done with statues!"
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Sat 13 Jun 19:11

The protestors "protecting" the statues are doing so because Churchill was a racist and they like racism.

Any that I've seen interviewed have been very firm on their stance that history shouldn't be "rewritten" by removing statues, until the subject of the Nelson Mandela or Gandhi statues is brought up that is...

The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel the warmth.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sat 13 Jun 19:31

Undoubtedly both Churchill and Gandhi held racist views but I think both are remembered for something grander than their prejudice.



There's battle lines being drawn Nobody's right if everybody is wrong.

Post Edited (Sat 13 Jun 19:34)
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Sat 13 Jun 20:37

You might remember a song called "Jeans On", by a fella called David Dundas back in 1977.

Well, David Dundas is actually Lord David Dundas these days and yes... he's a direct descendant of the slave trader.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Sun 14 Jun 04:32

The sheep-like proponents of this futile attempt to correct history have quickly lost their focus. No surprise there. The majority of these folk have the attention span of a gnat.

The "woke" folk running from statue to statue with their phone cams looking for excuses to deface or destroy them have moved on from the slave drivers to the explorers Columbus and Cook, and then on to national icons like Robert the Bruce, Churchill and Gandhi.

See? No focus. Clearly, there weren't enough slave profiteers to keep their Facebook followers amused. These cretins are lost without the "Like" button...

This seems to be how people are judged these days - not by the work that they contribute to society but by their ability to impress with a striking pose.

We are now being told that the BBC's UKTV is going withdraw its German episode from the Fawlty Towers box set for fear the racism upsets the public.

Just how many times has this episode been shown on TV over the years? How many times has it been replayed on YouTube? How many folks will be shocked by viewing this for the very first time?

Oh, how we need a modern-day Alf Garnett to emerge now to expose the shallow hypocrisy that disguises itself as being "woke" and politically aware. Johnny Speight and Warren Mitchell would be spinning in their graves watching this nonsense.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Sun 14 Jun 06:05

The Gandhi statue was targeted by the racists.

The Robert Bruce statue was probably defaced by the Loyalist Defence League.

The Fawlty Towers episode has been put back on UKTV but was removed as a commercial decision which UKTV is perfectly entitled to take.

It wasn't just slavers that BLM object to though. They object to racism, and Churchill was undoubtedly one of those.

Cook and Columbus slaughtered the indigenous populations as they were exploring. They weren't just explorers, they were also murderers.

The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel the warmth.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Sun 14 Jun 07:12

Read your history Wotsit. Cook killed people when provoked. He never engaged in slaughter.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Sun 14 Jun 08:17

History tells me that his crew killed a Maori within the first half hour of making contact and plenty more over the next few days.

My understanding of these incidents were that they wete handwaved away as a misunderstanding but no mention of provication, at least in the dozen or so folk they killed immediately after first contact.

I suppose that they might have felt provoked later, by the kin of the folk they murdered.

The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel the warmth.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: Rastapari  
Date:   Sun 14 Jun 08:52

Gammon don't really think things through do they.

Carole Baskin fed Rasta to a tiger.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sun 14 Jun 09:56

This is a story about the student group that was objecting to the Gandhi statue last year.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/17/manchester-council-urged-reject-mahatma-gandhi-statue-racism

There's battle lines being drawn Nobody's right if everybody is wrong.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Sun 14 Jun 10:31

<<History tells me that his crew killed a Maori within the first half hour of making contact and plenty more over the next few days.>>


I prefer to believe Cook's own words from his diary, and those of the botanist Joseph Banks, who witnessed everything, rather than the re-writing today of history to suit an agenda by people who clearly were not there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uo3Q816hQA

This tells you all you need to know. It was as a result of considerable provocation. And it was certainly not slaughter.

On three long voyages across the Pacific, Cook took great care to show respect to the people he met.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Sun 14 Jun 11:59

On the same theme as Fawlty Towers causing offence, I was not happy about the statue of Bomber Harris. If someone who killed (indirectly) thousands of German civilians during the war can get a statue, I find it offensive, especially when you read what happened in Dresden.
I understand that there'sa seperate monument to Bomber Command dedicated to the crews that lost their lives, that's not a problem, but the Harris one doesn't sit well with me.
Coincidentally the Air Crew statue and the one with Churchill and Roosevelt sitting on a bench were both daubed with paint in January 2019.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sun 14 Jun 12:16

The Fawlty Towers scene was removed for a very short time so they could edit out offensive remarks made by the Major character about the West Indies cricket team. I believe the episode is now available to stream once again.
Not that it's a competition but the RAF bombing of Hamburg killed far more than the later RAF bombing of Dresden.

There's battle lines being drawn Nobody's right if everybody is wrong.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: BigJPar  
Date:   Sun 14 Jun 12:18

Quote:

OzPar, Sun 14 Jun 10:31

<<History tells me that his crew killed a Maori within the first half hour of making contact and plenty more over the next few days.>>


I prefer to believe Cook's own words from his diary, and those of the botanist Joseph Banks, who witnessed everything, rather than the re-writing today of history to suit an agenda by people who clearly were not there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uo3Q816hQA

This tells you all you need to know. It was as a result of considerable provocation. And it was certainly not slaughter.

On three long voyages across the Pacific, Cook took great care to show respect to the people he met.


So it's ok to invade someone's territory and then start shooting towards them almost immediately. Very colonial
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Sun 14 Jun 12:27

It's the old adage: History is written by the victor. Bad bits invariably get left out in what becomes "history".

In some cases it can take a long time for other accounts of "history" to surface and shape people's view of the past.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Sun 14 Jun 12:34

My favourite statue is the one outside Central Station in Glasgow, in memory of the Fire Service and Salvage Corp., being an ex firefighter I suppose it's understandable.

Next year I hope to go to the 9/11 memorial.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Sun 14 Jun 13:16

A man has been arrested on suspicion of outraging public decency in connection with the picture circulating on social media of someone relieving himself next to the memorial for PC Keith Palmer at Westminster. According to BBC News 'he is currently in custody in Essex after presenting himself at a police station.' They could have been more careful in their choice of words.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: doctordandruff  
Date:   Sun 14 Jun 20:50

In terms of 'bad bombing', Hamburg was a legitimate target so even though the destruction was worse it's not seen in the same light as Dresden- a target of little strategic value at a point when the war was more or less over.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: parfection  
Date:   Mon 15 Jun 01:36

The German word for statue in its widest sense is ’Denkmal’. There exists however another word ‘Mahnmal’. So what’s the difference? Denkmal is intended to make us think (denk) about the subject. Mahnmal is intended to remind and warn us to take heed of previous events. This is an interesting and, to my mind, important distinction. If erecting statues can serve more of a reminding function and a little less of glorification of the individual we might be on slightly less controversial ground. Then again, one man’s triumph is another man’s disaster and many, many memorials will fall foul of this. Wartime ‘heroes’ are a very good case in point. Let’s not kid ourselves that every bombing raid on German cities was weighed up for its moral justification, and few people quibbled with recognition for Arthur Harris at the time. We may now take a different view and see the Dresden raids as a wanton act of evil. Then opponents of this view will say “Well what about Coventry? They did it to us.” It’s a matter that provokes strong emotions.

It’s often a matter of personal involvement. An artist or a musician may have been a pioneer in his or her field - yet all it takes to tarnish a reputation built up over years may be the fact that he/she might have been a bit curmudgeonly and rather brusque in dealings with others or may have had serious drink or drug addictions. Such imagined shortcomings are often magnified out of all proportion, but not all statues are erected to the memory of ‘nice’ people - nor should they be. Many influential people have feet of clay and a statue in their honour. Should the former preclude the latter? No, not necessarily.

It’s a very human thing to honour those who have made meaningful contributions to the life of mankind - a statue is one way. There are others - titles, financial rewards, medals - it’s a long list. But deciding how to honour is rarely the issue, it’s far more about who. A can of worms indeed!



Post Edited (Mon 15 Jun 09:57)
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Mon 15 Jun 09:44

If you looked closely at every figure that had been honoured by a statue, in many cases you'd find something that somebody found offensive or objected to.

Take Dr.Barnardo (for example) - he provided homes for thousands of destitute children across society.

As long as they weren't from Catholic families.



Post Edited (Mon 15 Jun 09:48)
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Mon 15 Jun 09:48

You don't have to look too closely at some.

Including Barnardo.

The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel the warmth.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Mon 15 Jun 09:59

Quote:

LochgellyAlbert, Sun 14 Jun 12:34

My favourite statue is the one outside Central Station in Glasgow, in memory of the Fire Service and Salvage Corp., being an ex firefighter I suppose it's understandable.

Next year I hope to go to the 9/11 memorial.


Hey Lochgelly, the 911 one is tough.

I'll be honest and say I wasn't that fussed about going as had no real feelings towards that event - but really glad I did.
I listened to the people there explaining about it which were really interesting, especially the story about the fire engine on display. I thought they were generally objective about bin laden and why he chose his path (which i wasn't expecting)... but it's when you see kids clothes and shoes that really brings the tragedy of it home (and a tear to your eye)

As a fireman yourself, really hope you get to see it m8, as I'm sure it'll mean even more to you
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Mon 15 Jun 11:05

DPB....Thanks for that, was supposed to be there in April, but events changed that.

An ex colleague told me that when he was queued to go in he had mentioned he was ex fire service, he was then taken in by one of the attendants. It was announced to the queue that he was a retired firefighter and he was greeted by a round of applause and cheering, at that point it became a bit too emotional for him!
A few of my ex colleagues have been there and said the museum with the damaged fire truck is quite an emotional moment. 😢😢😢
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend  
Date:   Mon 15 Jun 12:07

I've been and you should go. Plan on spending a good three or four hours there




It's bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Mon 15 Jun 13:47

''A man has been arrested on suspicion of outraging public decency in connection with the picture circulating on social media of someone relieving himself next to the memorial for PC Keith Palmer at Westminster. According to BBC News 'he is currently in custody in Essex after presenting himself at a police station.' They could have been more careful in their choice of words.''

Jailed for 14 days - swift justice. His father put pressure on him to turn himself in.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Mon 15 Jun 14:12

The image in the papers today of Piere Noah carrying the far right protester to safety after he was set upon was inspiring.

When he was interviewed afterwards he said "It' not black against white, it's everyone else against racists" - never a truer word!

The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel the warmth.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Mon 15 Jun 16:55

I thought the guy who rescued him was called Patrick Hutchinson?
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Mon 15 Jun 17:22

Quote:

wee eck, Mon 15 Jun 16:55

I thought the guy who rescued him was called Patrick Hutchinson?


Man, how on earth did I get that wrong? I'm a right fudd ☹️

The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel the warmth.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Mon 15 Jun 17:50

It would have been interesting to hear a comment from the guy who was rescued.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: twin par  
Date:   Mon 15 Jun 21:08

Yes, it would be very interesting.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: Hail2Crail  
Date:   Sun 21 Jun 17:20

Anyone that is offended by a statue should launch themself from a great height, cranium first into a set of guard railings with the spikey parts on the top.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: DA-go Par Adonis  
Date:   Sun 21 Jun 19:47

Same goes for anyone offended by the removal of a statue of a slave trader.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I love it when we go sell Kevin Nisbet,
He's gonna pay for everyone this season.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Sun 21 Jun 20:53

Quote:

DA-go Par Adonis, Sun 21 Jun 19:47

Same goes for anyone offended by the removal of a statue of a slave trader.


Touche.

In fairness, the whole thing has gotten ridiculous. Calls to get rid of Carnegie and also the Canmore Tower sign vandalised.
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: red-star-par  
Date:   Mon 22 Jun 10:54

Quote:

jake89, Sun 21 Jun 20:53

Quote:

DA-go Par Adonis, Sun 21 Jun 19:47

Same goes for anyone offended by the removal of a statue of a slave trader.


Touche.

In fairness, the whole thing has gotten ridiculous. Calls to get rid of Carnegie and also the Canmore Tower sign vandalised.


What did they do to the Canmore Tower sign?
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Mon 22 Jun 11:13

Just read someone had vandalised the signage. Not sure if it relates to BLM or just fannies being fannies.

Found it on twitter. Won't share as has a rude word in it.

It says ABT (maybe AB+) and then right across the sign is "WORST ####S"

The # bit is a part of the female anatomy.

Post Edited (Mon 22 Jun 11:16)
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 Re: Offensive Statues
Topic Originator: Hail2Crail  
Date:   Mon 22 Jun 12:03

Quote:

DA-go Par Adonis, Sun 21 Jun 19:47

Same goes for anyone offended by the removal of a statue of a slave trader.


Indeed.

Getting offended by anything to do with a statue is covered in this. They all need to get in the sea. I can safely say ive never been offended by anything in my lifetime. Not even chris suttons face.
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