|
|
Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Wed 10 Jun 11:13
Having singularly failed to learn a lesson from the last thread I started on this forum, I'm heading into another topic which is sure to arouse a bit of controversy. All I would ask of everyone is that they keep calm and rational at all times and don't resort to abuse of any poster whose opinion they disagree with.
Racism is everywhere, although it varies in intensity in different countries. It has been responsible for genocide, often aggravated by religious differences and even in more enlightened countries, it produces prejudice and intolerance, so that the ethnic minority groups are often socially disadvantaged.
None of us would care to admit we are even remotely racist and yet racism undeniably exists in this country. (I'm reminded of the time when I hadn't long started teaching in the mid 70s. The gents staff toilet was blocked. When the janitor cleared it, he found it was full of fag ends. The Head asked the 40+ male teachers if they smoked. To a man, we all denied it. I reckon at least 80% lied.)
Perhaps the question which would allow us to come to an honest evaluation is "How would you feel if your daughter brought home a black African and announced she was going to marry him?" Not your son and an African woman as that is apparently more acceptable.
Of course, racism doesn't require any differences in skin tone or colour. In Scotland, some of us are openly racist towards the English and/or the Irish. In Italy, many in the north of the country make no secret of their loathing for those who come from the south. They even had a political party called the Northern League, which wanted to split Italy in two, so they wouldn't have the poorer South "sponging" off the North. Now, they're just called the League, so they can garner votes in the South, but they're still a collection of neo fascists.
Not your average Sunday League player.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: parsmad68
Date: Wed 10 Jun 11:51
I have worked all over the world for 30 years and have many friends with completely different ethnic backgrounds.
I love the different cultures, food and customs of every nation I visit. For me I just see the people, but in modern terms would I be classed as a racist because I joke with my Chinese friends directly about their eating habits as they joke with me about all my Scottish idiosyncrasies.
Important to note we are all genuine friends.
I was once explained by an American friend that he didn’t feel anything but ambivalent towards neighbouring states. He then proceeded to say, man you guys in Europe have learned to hate each other over centuries.
What he meant by that was that by nations we have stereotypes of each other and as nations we have learned these stereotypes. That is what he sees.
So this must mean we are all racist in some respect.
I simply don’t care what nationality you are, I just see the person.
So I don’t class myself as racist but I fear I am racist by my actions against the modern term of racism.
Is it grade-able for how racist we are in a scale?
Casual
All out
Occasional
Racially agnostic?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: babs woodhouse
Date: Wed 10 Jun 12:48
The problem is in the media it is seen as only whites that are racist the worst racism I have come across was from a black woman that worked for the same company'
She was in sales and hated having to deal with the P%K& barsteward shop keepers.
The treatment of black against other black men especially in London is far worse than white against all the other ethnic minorities together put together when it comes to the most serious crime of murder.
We don't see thousands protesting on the streets about this.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: DBP
Date: Wed 10 Jun 13:10
Putting to one those who openly promote their racist views, eg national front /kkk/etc members... I think we all are to some extent.
I think we all hold bias whether we realise it or not and that bias will be formed by a person's race, nationality, social status, background or even a person's view on a certain subject (brexit, indy, voting tory, supporting old firm, area they live, job they do, etc)
Fortunately, we are hard wired to look for patterns, stereotypes etc and to make judgements based on them from a danger, survival perspective... Unfortunately those judgements will cloud our vision without us even knowing.
Were also a social animal who likes to be comfortable and safe which is why we like to be around people like ourselves. Good news for those looking for fellow people with an interest in a certain pursuit, not so good for the boy from the scheme trying to break into the public schoolboy job market or maybe the foreign kid looking for pals at school.
This is an issue for all groups of people and while I hate to admit it, will be true for me as well
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Parplod
Date: Wed 10 Jun 13:35
The George Floyd case is appalling and I hope that those involved feel the full force of the law. It might also bring about a much needed reform of the dysfunctional policing structure in the US where there are 2000+ different agencies. It is easy for a disgraced officer to be re-employed elsewhere.
At the end of my police career I was in charge of a culturally diverse area and would regularly attend, and be made most welcome at, regular cultural events. The leaders would regularly comment that they enjoyed our festivals - Christmas, Easter etc - and thought it was ridiculous that they seemed to be dumbed down in case they caused offence. The banning of the words “Merry Christmas” on Christmas cards springs to mind. Everyone appeared to be in fear of offending the “what can I be offended by today” brigade. This only deflected attention from genuinely offensive actions.
All sides need to reflect at this time. All lives matter.
When a large % of knife crime is committed by a certain section of society it is NOT racist if the stop/search figures show that the same large % of searches relate to that section of society. It is proportionate.
When 75% of a certain section of society stopped for road traffic offences are subsequently charged with providing false details or having false documents, it is NOT racist if that section of society are more closely scrutinised when stopped, it is proportionate.
When 10% of the total UK credit card fraud can be traced to one particular postcode area, it is NOT racist but proportionate to focus detection efforts there.
Hopefully this shocking incident does bring about some genuine, positive change.
Post Edited (Wed 10 Jun 18:26)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Wed 10 Jun 16:43
I'm pretty biased against the police. But then I think it's acceptable to be judgemental against folk's freely made choices so I don't feel bad about it.
The bad apples have spoiled the bunch and if the police want to be taken seriously as a force for good in this country they need to stop closing ranks and protecting those employees who do terrible things. What reflects badly on the force as a whole isn't that there are imperfect officers roaming around, what reflects badly is when the criminal police are protected from justice, because that symbolises a deep seated institutional problem rather than an issue with a few bad employees.
The enemy travels by private jet, not by dinghy.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Wed 10 Jun 17:28
The economic policies which allowed a massively rich elite and also an underclass to develop has required police to dress and sometimes behave like soldiers. The police under Thatcher were very enthusiastic to adopt their new role- increased wages helped in this regard- but in doing so they were managing further inequality within society.
Now they are kneeling all over the place, pleading to be accepted by the people they were supposed to be protecting. The police used to actually live in the areas they policed, often in police houses at a lower rent. They were paid the wages of a skilled working man. They took the money offered by Thatcher and all who followed her and now they are realising the cost.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Wed 10 Jun 17:46
Perhaps not racist but we all certainly make fun of "different" people. Loads of jokes about folk from Falkirk on here but no real malice intended. The difference is when "banter" crosses the line. Like I used to work in an office where the air would be blue and we'd all take the urine about where each person was from (Scottish, English, Canadian). All good banter but if written down and read out you's think we hated each other!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Wed 10 Jun 17:47
Thatcher panicked ah la miners
She opened the door to all and sundry
Vetting was minimal.. Education was not considered.. Height build and athletic prowess went out the window
Just get men and women in ill fitting police uniforms on the streets
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Parplod
Date: Wed 10 Jun 17:58
As someone who was in the last intake before the Edmund Davies recommendations came into effect in late 1978, I don’t recognise some of the comments in relation to pay and conditions from Sammer or Buspass, although I accept that some Scottish Forces recruitment policy was not as robust as others. If you are looking for recruitment without vetting then look at the SNP’s “Let’s put 1000 extra officers on the street” nonsense. Officers were removed from Tulliallan once their criminal records belatedly came to light.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Wed 10 Jun 18:05
Parplod apologies I should have added I lived in Carlisle and it was the English Police
Did you see the Grey Lady at Tulliallan College ?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Parplod
Date: Wed 10 Jun 18:08
Grey Lady? A ghost presumably. I did see a few human apparitions there in my time but have never heard a ghost story.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Wed 10 Jun 18:10
Aye my Gran lived in Kincardine and filled my head with the Grey Lady ghost story
Many have said they seen her
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: EEP
Date: Wed 10 Jun 21:09
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Wed 10 Jun 21:26
Parplod,
Your knowledge will dwarf mine. But I would contend that the average beat bobby (if there remains such a thing) is further removed from the people he polices than at any time in British history.
The police did not have beats when I was a lad in mid 1960s Dunfermline. They maybe patrolled the High Street to protect the property and to keep good order after closing time but that was it. They only came to Abbey View where there was a crime. They were never part of what we lived.
At best they were seen as a necessary evil. At worst a bunch of people in uniform that could put you on a cell. We never loved them.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Parplod
Date: Wed 10 Jun 21:41
Sadly beat bobbies are no more. In my Father’s Day in the Force (like me Glasgow) they stayed in police houses within their area. Then came the option of a rent allowance in lieu of a house, allowing an officer to purchase a house although permission had to be granted by the Force. This came about because it became more difficult to live in the area that you policed as officers’ families were targeted.
I walked a beat in my early days and you could build a relationship with a community and it is a shame that your general view of the police has been shaped in such a way by your experience - but I respect that.
Even the community policing model that was prevalent when I retired 12 years ago has, I think, disappeared.
One thing that I did learn and think holds good today - never confuse policing in Scotland with policing in England & Wales, and never confuse policing in England & Wales with policing in the Met. They sadly are a law unto themselves.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Wed 10 Jun 21:45
The sniper has you in the cross hairs G.G.
That is an absolute mess of a post you are trying to hard
I have not quite managed to understand the connection of the denying smoking in the toilet to genocide and the often aggravated by religious differences ......substitute often to always
Would you disown your daughter if she brought a black man who smoked into the house of Riva ?....I think not..... or are you racist G.G.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Wed 10 Jun 21:53
Parplod did you meet a Glasgow copper called Jimmy Gordon ?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Thaipar
Date: Wed 10 Jun 22:34
Quote:
sammer, Wed 10 Jun 21:26
Parplod,
Your knowledge will dwarf mine. But I would contend that the average beat bobby (if there remains such a thing) is further removed from the people he polices than at any time in British history.
The police did not have beats when I was a lad in mid 1960s Dunfermline. They maybe patrolled the High Street to protect the property and to keep good order after closing time but that was it. They only came to Abbey View where there was a crime. They were never part of what we lived.
At best they were seen as a necessary evil. At worst a bunch of people in uniform that could put you on a cell. We never loved them.
Not remember PC Baker doing the beat iin Abbey View Sammer?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Wed 10 Jun 22:51
Parplod,
Police officers houses being targeted is a very interesting area. The police houses I knew as a boy were considered the safest streets in Abbey View. No decent criminal would ever have ventured in those streets unless he was an idiot. The neighbours were happy to have police around and supported them as good influences in the community. It was taken as read that you could not call out a policeman from his house, since he had his private life, unless it was an emergency. I saw this happen once and the off duty policeman earned my respect as a young boy. He was magnificent and my father and others shared that view. The idea of police being tagetted was non existent. It was incomprehensible when they lived amongst us.
It was a good system, for the public at least. Maybe the police felt constrained in their life; I don't know. They were given social status but also seen as a little removed. Many professionals have to accept this trade off.
sammer
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Thu 11 Jun 07:18
''The sniper has you in the cross hairs G.G.
That is an absolute mess of a post you are trying to hard
I have not quite managed to understand the connection of the denying smoking in the toilet to genocide and the often aggravated by religious differences ......substitute often to always
Would you disown your daughter if she brought a black man who smoked into the house of Riva ?....I think not..... or are you racist G.G.''
Ooer.... I'm looking over my shoulder. Are you on the rooftop of one of my neighbours' houses?
The smoking in the toilet analogy was an attempt to illustrate that people are prepared to lie when faced with an uncomfortable truth. I don't believe religion absolutely always aggravates racial tensions, so I went with often.
My daughter is happily married to a Scot. (He was a smoker but never smoked indoors and has now been smoke free for over a year.) Some Italians I know have succeeded in convincing their Scots born children to marry a good Italian boy/girl - with disastrous results. Marrying someone from another race is only a problem if he/she has very different cultural traditions. Can you imagine if your daughter was married to a man who expected her to always wear a face veil and full Muslim dress outdoors? That might cause a few problems if she didn't want to.
The colour of someone's skin is only something I would note when I first met them, in the same way that we notice if someone is bald, has a beard or wears glasses etc. As a young person, I think I was more wary of people of other race, but as I matured I began to understand that it's what is under the skin that is really important.
So, I don't think I'm a racist, partly because I've lived in Scotland, my adopted country for 60 years now, come 1st July and have never experienced any racist behaviour of any note, towards me. On the contrary, those I've met here during my lifetime, have always shown a genuine interest in my origins and it's often been a positive factor rather than a negative one. You never know, though. Deep down, I could be a rampant racist in denial with myself. I was one of those who lied about smoking in the staff toilets. :-(
Happily, I gave up smoking a few years later and took up long distance running. Best thing I ever did.
Not your average Sunday League player.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Parplod
Date: Thu 11 Jun 07:37
Sammer,
Yes the police officer living in a police house in his local area model was good in its day. When there wasn’t sufficient housing stock a rent allowance was paid, based on rateable value with a maximum cap. If you had a police house you had to vacate on retirement. You then had a scenario where one officer would retire and need to start from scratch on the housing ladder, whilst his colleague who had received rent allowance was in his/her own property which had accrued in value over the years. You also had the right to buy policy which resulted on officers being able to buy their police house. A combination which led to the disappearance of “the police house”.
Rent allowance was eventually consolidated into salary - I think in the 1990s.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: OzPar
Date: Thu 11 Jun 08:58
Parplod, It is good to have that explained. It all makes perfect sense now.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: ipswichpar
Date: Thu 11 Jun 17:29
Well, I dont know if Harry Enfield is racist, but he certainly isn't very self-aware....
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: 60yearapar
Date: Fri 12 Jun 22:46
I assume that there will be no re-runs of love thy neighbour any time soon? I used to laugh at this show, does that make me racist? Remember the insults went both ways on this.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Sat 13 Jun 08:33
Not much doubt about this guy masquerading as a pastor.
https://t.co/nXwUgBew2T
Not your average Sunday League player.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Sat 13 Jun 13:30
A reminder of the Ulster/Scots roots of the Ku Klux Klan.
His claim that Republican Nationalists stoked up tension in 1969 has not been supported by history. Following Gusty Spence's reincarnation of the UVF a few years earlier there were a number of shootings and attacks on power stations, electricity pylons, water pipes made by his group or persons associated with it. One of these associates was Dr. Ian Kyle Paisley. These attacks were 'false flag' operations intended to create the illusion of an IRA bombing campaign. When one militant loyalist killed himself while on such active service the police did not pursue the obvious link, a link which might have led back to Ian Paisley.
Any fear being stoked up in 1969 was by hardline unionists since the IRA at the time was moribund.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: DBP
Date: Sun 14 Jun 07:05
That's true, I studied the conflict in Northern Ireland as part of my university degree and what you say is correct sammer.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Fri 19 Jun 06:45
When I posed the original question, I wasn't looking for individuals to put their hands up and admit to being racist or having racist thoughts. There is an argument that no child is born racist - it is learned from others. There's also a counter argument that we feel more comfortable among our own kind and that we instinctively view any humans who are ''different'' in some way with caution. Perhaps this evolved over millions of years as groups of animals, including humans, fought and killed one another over territory to protect their food sources? It still goes on today, of course, even though human survival doesn't depend on it.
I don't know the answer to my own question myself, but I do know that many of us are intelligent enough not to hold prejudicial views of people from other parts of the world without even knowing them. When you do get to know someone, you realise that the colour of their skin is even less relevant as to whether they have a full head of hair or not. I like the way Pep Guardiola put it recently:-
''"White people should say sorry for the way we have treated black people for 400 years. I am ashamed of what we have done to black people around the world.''
Maybe he should have said people of any other ethnic group, since they have all been badly treated at some time in history, but black Africans are still being discriminated against today, whereas some other races have been practically wiped off the map.
Not your average Sunday League player.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Sat 20 Jun 00:25
One of Coulston’s descendants made what I thought was a good suggestion this week. Rather than offer late and rather lame apologies he thought a better route would be for cities such as Bristol to twin with a area from where slaves had been taken. That would allow cultural and economic interaction and something along the lines of exchange places at each other’s colleges and universities. Maybe sport could play a part too.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Sun 21 Jun 11:54
''One of Coulston’s descendants made what I thought was a good suggestion this week. Rather than offer late and rather lame apologies he thought a better route would be for cities such as Bristol to twin with a area from where slaves had been taken. That would allow cultural and economic interaction and something along the lines of exchange places at each other’s colleges and universities. Maybe sport could play a part too.''
That's an excellent suggestion. I'm not that well read on the history of slavery as I find it too harrowing, but I believe most slaves were taken from west Africa and more specifically Ghana, so that would be a good place to start.
The whole issue of racism has always appalled and fascinated me at the same time. A part of me thinks that it's instinctive to feel wary or even afraid of people who look markedly different to ourselves, while another argues that very young children of different races will play quite happily together and that racism is learned from older friends and relatives, as they grow up.
Perhaps there's an element of both? If so, I'd suggest that the learned behaviour is more significant. We can conquer any instinctive fears by interacting with people from different ethnic backgrounds.
Not your average Sunday League player.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Sun 21 Jun 14:17
I wonder whether Coulson's relative would mind if we repatriated to profits from slavery and colonialism back to the communities from which they were stolen?
He can claim Universal Credit and downsize to avoid the bedroom tax so he'll be fine.
The enemy travels by private jet, not by dinghy.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Jbob
Date: Mon 22 Jun 07:21
Yes
Bobs of the world unite
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Hail2Crail
Date: Tue 23 Jun 07:32
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: londonparsfan
Date: Tue 23 Jun 09:22
Well done Burnley. It's sad that there's plenty of knuckle draggers out there that just don't get it. Ben Mee's interview after the match was top drawer as well.
Imagine getting your knickers in a twist about people looking for equality to the extent that you hire a plane to fly about a football stadium two night running. Absolute snowflake roasters and a waste of natural resources/oxygen. Expensive way to get yourself banned from the football too.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Tue 23 Jun 09:38
Surely there must be rules about the messages these planes fly?
These idiots are missing the point about BLM. It's about pointing out that black lives matter just as much as other races. It's not about saying they matter more than, for example, white lives.
These are the people pointing out that there's more black on black crime than white on black. That's irrelevant. You have to look at the bigger picture and ask - why are black people more likely to be involved in petty crime (I say petty as there are plenty of 'criminals' in powerful positions getting away with a lot worse)? A lot of this will be linked to inequality. A black person (and others in the BAME) is proven to need to try harder to get jobs. Imagine the anger at knowing someone got a job over you just because they had a different skin colour?
Let's be honest, we all see similar prejudices every day. People judged on how they talk, what they wear, the car they drive, the type of alcohol they drink.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Stoo
Date: Tue 23 Jun 09:49
Do we know for sure it was a Burnley fan who organised that?
If I was super petty I could get a plane with "I pump my sister - Falkirk" over the Falkirk Stadium.
There could be some Blackburn fans pishin themselves.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: londonparsfan
Date: Tue 23 Jun 10:02
Yes the guy has had it all over social media. Looks exactly as you would expect too complete with the Tommy Robinson photos 😂
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Stoo
Date: Tue 23 Jun 10:22
Ha fair enough.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Tue 23 Jun 11:56
I didn't reply to Hail2Crail's provocative post, as I'm 99% sure he's trolling but then I thought, "Crail is a village and every village has one......" 🙂
Not your average Sunday League player.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: aaaaaaaaaargh
Date: Tue 23 Jun 11:59
The whole thing just sums up the paradox that is the North of England.
Poverty and deprivation are major problems especially in the smaller towns of the north. Instead of trying to fight to improve things for themselves they blame everything on Brussels and brown people, then vote for Johnson/Cummings who are at best indifferent to their plight and at worst happy to sacrifice them for their personal gain.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Tue 23 Jun 12:29
This ^^^^^^
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Hail2Crail
Date: Tue 23 Jun 17:37
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Tue 23 Jun 18:31
The issue of whether a plane message is slander or libel was once tested many years ago in an English court. Slander is the fleeting, spoken word whilst libel is what is set down in print. The judgment was that a plane message was slander (hence lower damages) since the message was moving and more in line with the spoken word. (In Scottish law I think the term ‘slander’ covers both spoken and written.)
Not that slander is the issue here. I think one off shoot of colonial exploitation is that it can create a sense of anxiety amongst those who have benefited from the exploitation. This particularly evident in the USA where fear of slave revolts was once deep seated and where the mass incarceration of young, black men has become a feature of their society. In the UK, Enoch Powell’s infamous speech in 1968 used the phrase ‘When the black man has the whip hand’ to play upon this same fear. Behind the macho posturing of the EDL lies a fair amount of fear.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Tue 23 Jun 19:12
Quote:
Hail2Crail, Tue 23 Jun 17:37
Quote:
GG Riva, Tue 23 Jun 11:56
I didn't reply to Hail2Crail's provocative post, as I'm 99% sure he's trolling but then I thought, "Crail is a village and every village has one......" 🙂
The sea.
Close, but not quite the "sea" I had in mind, if you c what I mean?..... 😉
Not your average Sunday League player.
Post Edited (Tue 23 Jun 19:14)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: EEP
Date: Tue 23 Jun 21:02
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Hail2Crail
Date: Tue 23 Jun 21:09
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Tue 23 Jun 21:11
Quote:
EEP, Tue 23 Jun 21:02
Have you seen some of the videos on YouTube where black people are just going up to white people in the street and punching them knocking them out.... then laughing?
What about the 3 whites stabbed this week by an immigrant?
Aye, I reckon that just about evens up the wrongs of slavery, EEP.
Did you think the question in the thread title was aimed at humans of every race, or only at those with a white skin?
Not your average Sunday League player.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: EEP
Date: Tue 23 Jun 21:33
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: EEP
Date: Tue 23 Jun 21:35
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Tue 23 Jun 21:48
Quote G.G
All I would ask of everyone is that they keep calm and rational at all times and don't resort to abuse of any poster whose opinion they disagree with.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: EEP
Date: Tue 23 Jun 22:01
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: londonparsfan
Date: Tue 23 Jun 22:57
It doesn't but calling people Pa*k*s does and his good lady saying she loves Burnley but hates the smell of it and wishing that everyone would leave on their banana boats does.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Stoo
Date: Tue 23 Jun 23:02
The 3 people stabbed in Reading have been on every news broadcast that has aired since it happened.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: EEP
Date: Tue 23 Jun 23:07
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: londonparsfan
Date: Tue 23 Jun 23:08
Quote:
EEP, Tue 23 Jun 21:35
Slavery?? That’s not gone on for years so why are we bringing slavery into this?
Does anyone remember a soldier who got torn apart on the street by ISIS?
We as a nation did nothing at all....
You're off your rocker mate if you think slavery doesn't exist.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: londonparsfan
Date: Tue 23 Jun 23:09
Quote:
EEP, Tue 23 Jun 23:07
Ah here we go.... wtf has any of this got to do with BLM? Surely it should be a “Asian lives matter”🤷🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️ I saw a guy down the town today and he had been beat up... I thought maybe a “homeless lives matter”..... what a load of pihs!
I know its lockdown but put the beers down mate.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Tue 23 Jun 23:19
'By flying a plane in the sky saying “white lives matter Burnley “ does not make anyone racist in anyway imo.'
That doesn't seem to be the opinion of the person responsible for displaying the message. He has been reported of holding views that most would consider racist.
The two men responsible for stabbing Lee Rigby to death were sentenced to life imprisonment yet you say the nation did nothing. What did you want 'the nation' to do?
The Libyan accused of the mass stabbing attack this week was, as is usually the case in such incidents,' known to the authorities.' So was at least one of the killers of Lee Rigby. That is a blanket phrase which covers a multitude of possibilities, one of which is that they are persons who have been helpful to the security services in the past.
The survivors of the mass stabbing may have decided to avoid publicity so as to avoid being used to further other people's political agenda.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: EEP
Date: Tue 23 Jun 23:54
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: EEP
Date: Tue 23 Jun 23:58
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Stoo
Date: Wed 24 Jun 00:01
I enjoy punching an unassuming elderly white man every now and again, who doesn't?! I think thats something all races and creeds can agree on. Just so punchable.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Wed 24 Jun 05:26
EEP, I asked you a straightforward question yesterday, which you failed to answer. Perhaps it was an oversight on your part, so I'll ask it again.
Do you think the question in the thread heading was aimed at all races, or just those of Caucasian origin?
I'd like to add a supplementary question, which is a bit more tricky. How many wrongs make a right? I know from your posts that you're fervently anti religion, so I'm confident you won't subscribe to the Old Testament adage, "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth."
Not your average Sunday League player.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: EEP
Date: Wed 24 Jun 19:13
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Wed 24 Jun 19:39
It did make a difference though EEP.
For starters, before all this started the peaceful protest (taking the knee) was deemed socially unacceptable and somehow a direct insult to everyone who ever met anyone who'd been near Iraq. What violent protest achieves is to force the powers that be to listen to the peaceful protestors they've been ignoring or demonised.
Folk like you and me are talking about it too, that's a difference.
The enemy travels by private jet, not by dinghy.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: EEP
Date: Wed 24 Jun 20:05
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Wed 24 Jun 21:51
Quote:
EEP, Wed 24 Jun 19:13
Ah I see where you are coming from GG.
I get it so I’ll answer that question.
I don’t believe we are all inherently racist and I don’t care if you are black, white or any colour as we are all human.
It’s all the religions/cults poisoning peoples minds with how they should act that does my head in. I mean look at that paralex fella on here..... spouting none sense from a book.
If anyone could answer this “who made god”? Was he black.... was he white blah blah......who cares?
Don’t get me wrong what happened to the American guy was police brutality and awful but then there is mass rioting, people getting attacked and statues getting a doing...... what difference will this make....... nothing as folk are going to hate each other more which is in no way racist but just humans being human.
I've read your post several times and I'm not altogether clear as to where you stand in this debate. You don't believe we're all inherently racist. Perhaps you think some of us are? You lay the blame for racism on religion, but racism and racist attitudes exist between people of the same religion. Did you know that many Arabs look down on sub Saharan Africans, considering them racially inferior?
I think we may have an inbuilt instinct which makes us wary and cautious around people who are different. In some people that can develop into racial hatred. This instinct isn't confined to humans. It manifests itself in many animals. I grew up on a farm. My dad kept chickens. When one of his hens became broody, he sent me to a place near Powmill to buy 20 female day old chicks. The man gave me 20 yellow chicks and threw in an extra (black) chick for free. The broody hen accepted all the yellow chicks, but pecked the unfortunate black chick to death.....
A racist hen? Not quite, but you catch my drift?
Not your average Sunday League player.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: EEP
Date: Wed 24 Jun 22:31
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Thu 25 Jun 06:29
Thanks for the compliment, EEP, but I'm not going to go easy on you because of it. 🙂
You say you have no inherent or instinctive racial tendencies, but none of us can know that for certain. If it's in your DNA, you're none the wiser. I believe we may all have them, but most of us learn to suppress or overcome these. Coming into contact with people of different races and/or nationalities and interacting with them is by far the best way to alleviate or even eliminate any preconceived prejudices we may have held.
The other point I made is that many Arabs from North African countries such as Egypt and Morocco, are openly hostile towards their sub Saharan (black) African brothers, often referring to them as "black b******s". Now that is indisputably racist. It's also a matter of historical record that Arab countries captured and enslaved black Africans. I believe they were referred to as Nubian, although I haven't a clue where Nubia is/was.
Not your average Sunday League player.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Thu 25 Jun 14:27
The enemy travels by private jet, not by dinghy.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: EEP
Date: Thu 25 Jun 21:45
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Thu 25 Jun 21:54
I'd hope it was British police they were injuring, Azerbaijani police have sod all to do with institutionalised racism in the UK.
I remember seeing the list of injuries sustained by police officers during the G8 protests in Gleneagles. In amongst them were officers who had, among other similarly devastating injuries, been stung by a bee or fallen asleep in the car and got sunburn.
The enemy travels by private jet, not by dinghy.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Thu 25 Jun 21:56
You have to arrest them before you lock them up.
The police went into Brixton, a place where they have never enjoyed much in the way of poplar acclaim, to shut down an illegal 'rave.' They would never do this at the Henley Regatta needless to say. This caused a riot with the police apparently getting the worst of it. You won't make many arrests running for cover. They were bigger idiots than the 'rioters.'
As we saw in Tottenham some years back, all the stab vests, truncheons and tasers in the world are little use if you don't command the trust of the people you claim to be policing. You can arrest as many 'rioters' as you want, but they will be replaced in short time.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Fri 26 Jun 08:23
Quote:
EEP, Thu 25 Jun 21:45
So we have the Brixton riots wrecking police cars and injuring British police.... that’s not on at all tbh.
Lock these idiots up!
EEP, you can't justify one wrong action by pointing out another. It reminds me of a pupil who when challenged about a misdemeanor replied, without a hint of irony, "It wisnae me - it wis him tae."
Nobody is suggesting that racism is a one way street and that only whites are racist. Racism exists all over the world, but it's hard to argue that it is mainly directed towards ethnic minorities and in this country, this equates to Black and Asian people. I'm sure that those of Chinese origin will also experience racism, but for some reason, we don't hear about it so much.
Not your average Sunday League player.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Sacha
Date: Fri 26 Jun 17:11
https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/fife/1399535/fife-businessman-says-he-meant-no-offence-when-he-blackfaced-in-a-bear-suit/
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Stoo
Date: Sat 27 Jun 10:21
I was creased seeing that story, Sacha!
We have to be able to laugh that sort of stuff off. Nice man paints his face to look like a bear and someone got offended, which is mental. Now other radges will use that first radge to claim that the BLM movement is going too far blah blah blah.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: ianbd6
Date: Sat 27 Jun 12:21
I have lived for most of my life in Bradford. One of if not the most culturally diverse cities outside of London. When I was a boy the Scots were only a rung or two further up the ladder than the Irish and dogs. The Asians and blacks weren't even on the ladder. I was once stood in front of the class and told by the teacher to say certain words when I said them in a Scottish accent the class would all laugh and the teacher told me how to say it in proper English. You soon learn. The sixties in England was all about how great England was an the rest of us were there to serve her. In the seventies when work was in short supply was when racial tensions started to rise the jobs that my parents generation didn't want to do ( mill work ,working on the buses anything where there was late or night shifts really) all of a sudden become good jobs but the were taken by the immigrants. Who all of a sudden had come over and stolen the jobs from the white man. It must have been true because that is what the guys from the National Front told us when they came putting leaflets through the letterboxes. As young teenagers we believed it. We were told we wouldn't get a job because the Paki's had taken them. Fortunately for me I moved back and lived in Dunfermline in my late teens. When I moved back to Bradford the racial tensions were from the Afro Caribbeans.there would be gangs of them in the town centre going around intimidating any white lads. In the late eighties and early nineties it was young Asians that were going around in gang which culminated in riot's which caused millions of pounds worth of damage and a lot of arrests and convictions. Since then there has been no major incidents. Each different ethnic community believes they are being treated unfairly when really we are all being treated poorly equally. Sorry for being long winded. In answer to the opening question I don't think we are inherently racist I think we have a natural distrust of anything different be that colour,creed,size,opinion. I have said racist comment does that make me a racist. I have told lies does that make me a liar. I have heard so many derogatory remarks about Scot's when I'm in the pub and when it is pointed out that I am Scot's they are very apologetic. It water of a ducks back. On the recent events what happened to George Floyd was terrible but it is the USA's problem to sort not ours. I find slavery an abhorrent notion but I can't apologise for something I have had absolutely nothing to do with.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Sat 27 Jun 15:07
Excellent post, Ianbd6, thanks for sharing your life experiences with us. I can tell they have had a profound effect on you, but you have become a more resilient person as a result.
Much of your narrative actually confirms that most of us are inherently racist, unfortunately. People forming ethnic gangs and targeting other ethnic groups for no other reason than because they were different is compelling evidence of that. The "they come here and steal our jobs" line has been around for centuries. A friend of mine and his wife were dining in a well-known Edinburgh hotel last year. His wife commented that most of the staff were foreign nationals, just as the manager was passing and he overheard her. He asked if he could sit down and speak to them about it and then explained that every time he interviewed for new staff and offered jobs to Scottish applicants, they invariably made excuses when they learned about the unsocial hours they would be expected to work and turned the jobs down. He had no choice but to employ staff from other, mainly Eastern European countries.
I'd like to recommend a wonderful, ironic and uplifting book to you; "Bloody Foreigners" by Robert Winder. It describes the history of immigration to Britain - a truly brilliant read. If you don't want to buy a copy, you'll be able to borrow it from your local library when it reopens.
Not your average Sunday League player.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Sat 27 Jun 16:43
Excellent post ianbd6 I worked down in Banbury in the 70's and had similar problems and experiences like you
The Scots were definitely second rate and I was picked on and subjected to abuse especially on works nights out when the beer was taking effect
I was also summoned to the Primary school and was told my son may need to go to a special school as he was so far behind in his work
The problem was they did not understand a word he was saying and he had difficulty understanding them
I went through them like a dose of salts I explained to them the Scottish primary school way of teaching and in particular the word tin and fair play to them they took it on board and changed their method and approach
I still get a lump in my throat when I remember the day I went to pick him up from school and he came running across the playground when he saw me.. with one hand behind his back and when he reached me he produced his first reading book
So to get back to G.G.s post I actually do think we are all inherently racist but only a certain age group who were born at a time when we did not know any better or were taught otherwise
Paki, Chinky, Darkie, Nip all used in conversation back then but we thought nothing of it as we did not know it was wrong
I have never thought the gang culture or the brutal ethnic cleansing (a phrase I hate) as it makes it sound OK was connected to racism... more to religion
Any way thats my tuppence worth
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: moviescot
Date: Sat 27 Jun 17:11
Quote:
GG Riva, Sat 27 Jun 15:07
Excellent post, Ianbd6, thanks for sharing your life experiences with us. I can tell they have had a profound effect on you, but you have become a more resilient person as a result.
Much of your narrative actually confirms that most of us are inherently racist, unfortunately. People forming ethnic gangs and targeting other ethnic groups for no other reason than because they were different is compelling evidence of that. The "they come here and steal our jobs" line has been around for centuries. A friend of mine and his wife were dining in a well-known Edinburgh hotel last year. His wife commented that most of the staff were foreign nationals, just as the manager was passing and he overheard her. He asked if he could sit down and speak to them about it and then explained that every time he interviewed for new staff and offered jobs to Scottish applicants, they invariably made excuses when they learned about the unsocial hours they would be expected to work and turned the jobs down. He had no choice but to employ staff from other, mainly Eastern European countries.
I'd like to recommend a wonderful, ironic and uplifting book to you; "Bloody Foreigners" by Robert Winder. It describes the history of immigration to Britain - a truly brilliant read. If you don't want to buy a copy, you'll be able to borrow it from your local library when it reopens.
Interesting about the Edinburgh hotel. My wife and I were chatting to the general manager of a large chain hotel in Edinburgh. Next to the zoo. Most of the people working were of Eastern European origin.
He said they had recently been on a recruitment drive. They needed 20 staff for various positions and shifts. They got 100 plus applicants. About 70 were British. The rest were Eastern or Australian. They interviewed 50 of the most suitable of which about 40 were British. Offers were given to 20 people with only 2 being foreign. The 2 foreigners accepted the positions, the 18 British turned them down. Salary and hours were their reasons. They had to go back to the other foreign workers to fill the positions.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Sat 27 Jun 18:47
I think Banbury is still like that. We had a friend of a friend up from there to come to a party in Edinburgh a few years back. He didn't understand that "Scotland" was a whole country and didn't solely consists of everything within a mile of Waverley Station. He repeatedly said he thought the Scots would beat him up for being English. Noone batted an eyelid the whole night about his nationality. All said, if he was beaten up it would be for being an insufferable t*** rather than because he was English!
A similar tale from around the same area was when a friend got a job in Oxford he did some video calls to get a flat share. Twice it was made clear they didn't want him because he was Scottish. One of the calls was with a group of medical professionals who asked him how he voted in the independence referendum.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: parsmad68
Date: Sat 27 Jun 18:59
Quote:
ianbd6, Sat 27 Jun 12:21
I have lived for most of my life in Bradford. One of if not the most culturally diverse cities outside of London. When I was a boy the Scots were only a rung or two further up the ladder than the Irish and dogs. The Asians and blacks weren't even on the ladder. I was once stood in front of the class and told by the teacher to say certain words when I said them in a Scottish accent the class would all laugh and the teacher told me how to say it in proper English. You soon learn. The sixties in England was all about how great England was an the rest of us were there to serve her. In the seventies when work was in short supply was when racial tensions started to rise the jobs that my parents generation didn't want to do ( mill work ,working on the buses anything where there was late or night shifts really) all of a sudden become good jobs but the were taken by the immigrants. Who all of a sudden had come over and stolen the jobs from the white man. It must have been true because that is what the guys from the National Front told us when they came putting leaflets through the letterboxes. As young teenagers we believed it. We were told we wouldn't get a job because the Paki's had taken them. Fortunately for me I moved back and lived in Dunfermline in my late teens. When I moved back to Bradford the racial tensions were from the Afro Caribbeans.there would be gangs of them in the town centre going around intimidating any white lads. In the late eighties and early nineties it was young Asians that were going around in gang which culminated in riot's which caused millions of pounds worth of damage and a lot of arrests and convictions. Since then there has been no major incidents. Each different ethnic community believes they are being treated unfairly when really we are all being treated poorly equally. Sorry for being long winded. In answer to the opening question I don't think we are inherently racist I think we have a natural distrust of anything different be that colour,creed,size,opinion. I have said racist comment does that make me a racist. I have told lies does that make me a liar. I have heard so many derogatory remarks about Scot's when I'm in the pub and when it is pointed out that I am Scot's they are very apologetic. It water of a ducks back. On the recent events what happened to George Floyd was terrible but it is the USA's problem to sort not ours. I find slavery an abhorrent notion but I can't apologise for something I have had absolutely nothing to do with.
Iambd6 , I was once working for a while at the mill area in Bradford around 1999 time. I used to take my bike and cycle along the canals through Skipton and onward. One of the most beautiful areas of England. On the other hand I wanted to cycle to Halifax after work, took a wrong turn and went into an area of deprivation that I have not seen since the Bronx. Fronts of houses were missing and it seemed refuse collection was a forgotten item. The segregation of the ethnic minority for me was mind blowing. The physical separation of communities leads to no integration. I asked the locals how to get back to the main road to Halifax, but not one person in the area could speak English. How can this change so that communities can integrate. How does the local council deal with financial implications of this deprivation. It was genuinely unbelievable in this country and something that many people outside of these areas are aware of.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: ianbd6
Date: Sun 28 Jun 07:54
Parsmad68 I am not sure where you mean by the mill area of Bradford. If you mean the big mill with the very tall chimney then that area is where I work. It is an area which is about 95% Asian. Most of the Asians in Bradford speak English as a second language. You still find that on a street most of the families are from the same town or village back in Pakistan. There is no systematic segregation it is by choice. I am not to sure what you mean when you say fronts of houses were missing I can only think they were either getting renovated or demolished. There are many places in every city that are run down and Bradford is no different. As for refuse collection it is the householders duty to have there bins out on the correct day. The problem is the White population thinks the Asians are being treated favourably by the local Authorities and the Asians think it is the White's that are the truth is somewhere in between. You mention integration how can two sets of people with different cultures by that I mean different religion, different food , different fashion and different social life's integrate. That can't what they can do is coexist. The biggest tensions in Bradford recently have been between the different Asian groups especially over Indian controlled Kashmir. The thing is the vast majority of folk just want to get on with life in my case a few beers and a game of football. Unfortunately there is a tiny minority who don't and then you have the media who if the story isn't juicy enough they make it up. In today's world I don't think it is really about racism I think it is about offending people and there seems to be an endless stream of people who are ready to be offended and another stream of people willing to be offended for someone else.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Sun 28 Jun 08:35
''Interesting about the Edinburgh hotel. My wife and I were chatting to the general manager of a large chain hotel in Edinburgh. Next to the zoo. Most of the people working were of Eastern European origin.
He said they had recently been on a recruitment drive. They needed 20 staff for various positions and shifts. They got 100 plus applicants. About 70 were British. The rest were Eastern or Australian. They interviewed 50 of the most suitable of which about 40 were British. Offers were given to 20 people with only 2 being foreign. The 2 foreigners accepted the positions, the 18 British turned them down. Salary and hours were their reasons. They had to go back to the other foreign workers to fill the positions.''
Your post corroborates mine, moviescot. My pal and his wife were in a city centre hotel. Different hoel, same recruitment problems.
'' The segregation of the ethnic minority for me was mind blowing. The physical separation of communities leads to no integration. I asked the locals how to get back to the main road to Halifax, but not one person in the area could speak English. How can this change so that communities can integrate. How does the local council deal with financial implications of this deprivation. It was genuinely unbelievable in this country and something that many people outside of these areas are aware of.''
I'm absolutely certain that the local council does not segregate the Asian population, parsmad. Many new immigrants will know those already there, as ianbd said they're often from the same village and probably related. It's only natural that they will want to live near their fellow Asians, especially if they don't have a good grasp of English, so they can go to them for help and guidance when necessary. I know because the same thing happened with the Scottish Italian community but they tend to integrate faster and spread out across the country.
''You mention integration how can two sets of people with different cultures by that I mean different religion, different food , different fashion and different social life's integrate. That can't what they can do is coexist.''
It's tough for the first influx of immigrants, those who were born in another country and come here as adults, but it's much easier for their children and grandchildren, especially if they're educated here. Again, I'm speaking from experience. I was born in Italy. We emigrated to Scotland when I was 7. None of my family spoke any English. It was tough for my parents, but the language barrier wasn't too much of a problem as they worked on a farm. My siblings and I soon picked up the language when we went to school but we spoke Italian at home. My own kids and grandkids are completely integrated. This can also happen with the Asian community if they want it to, but it may take longer for the reasons you give - they are far more diverse than Europeans and tend to be firmly wedded to their traditions, but eventually it will happen.
If you read the book I recommended, you'll see that history just repeats itself.
Not your average Sunday League player.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: ianbd6
Date: Sun 28 Jun 18:32
I have ordered the book thanks for the recommendation GG Riva.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Sun 28 Jun 19:31
Quote:
ianbd6, Sun 28 Jun 18:32
I have ordered the book thanks for the recommendation GG Riva.
Excellent! You won't be disappointed. I look forward to reading your critique. 🙂
Not your average Sunday League player.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Tue 7 Jul 19:38
Quote:
Buspasspar, Tue 7 Jul 19:05
From the Beeb
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53320082
While I have a deep seated conviction that we have an instinctive diffidence towards people of other races which, unchecked, can give rise to racist behaviour, I don't see the tie up with the Grenfell Tower tragedy.
The reasons that most of those living in the tower block were from minority ethnic backgrounds are two fold:-
1. Accommodation would almost certainly be cheaper to rent or buy.
2. Most folk living there would feel safer and happier living beside friends and relatives - so usually people of their own race.
I'm struggling to understand how anyone could link this tragedy to the brutal murder of George Floyd.
Not your average Sunday League player.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Tue 7 Jul 19:59
My thoughts and feelings as well G.G. I had to read it twice to try and even comprehend the connection ... I think Mr. Thomas is a malefactor
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Tue 7 Jul 20:12
I wouldn't suggest Grenfell was racist simply because more black people died than white. The disgrace is that any person would be allowed to live in a dangerous home.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Tue 7 Jul 21:18
1. Accommodation would almost certainly be cheaper to rent or buy.
That's the thing GG imo: there is an undeniable link between poverty and ethnicity - people of particular ethnicities are more likely to be poor and people of other ethnicities are more likely to be wealthy.
Why is that?
Let's take India as a n example. India was home to one of the oldest and richest civilisations on the planet (the Indus Valley in particular) and had developed political and social systems over thousands of years until some Europeans came along and forcibly changed those social and political systems so as to better plunder the wealth and resources and remove them back to Blighty.
Then the people of India fight a long and bloody war to rid themselves of the imperialists then another couple of wars to sort out their borders after the imperialists had gone.
What's left? Not a lot really except a plundered and war ravaged country with social and political systems which are unfit for the job and literally designed to siphon money out of the economy for private interest.
There are stories all over the world of developed and flourishing cultures being culturally and financially robbed and plundered by European nations. That's not something they can just dust themselves down from and get on with it.
We can't pretend that we, in the modern day, don't still benefit from ripping off other countries. Why else would a tiny island in the Atlantic be doing so well despite having no resources to speak of.
The enemy travels by private jet, not by dinghy.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Wed 8 Jul 05:50
Quote:
Wotsit, Tue 7 Jul 21:18
1. Accommodation would almost certainly be cheaper to rent or buy.
That's the thing GG imo: there is an undeniable link between poverty and ethnicity - people of particular ethnicities are more likely to be poor and people of other ethnicities are more likely to be wealthy.
Why is that?
Let's take India as a n example. India was home to one of the oldest and richest civilisations on the planet (the Indus Valley in particular) and had developed political and social systems over thousands of years until some Europeans came along and forcibly changed those social and political systems so as to better plunder the wealth and resources and remove them back to Blighty.
Then the people of India fight a long and bloody war to rid themselves of the imperialists then another couple of wars to sort out their borders after the imperialists had gone.
What's left? Not a lot really except a plundered and war ravaged country with social and political systems which are unfit for the job and literally designed to siphon money out of the economy for private interest.
There are stories all over the world of developed and flourishing cultures being culturally and financially robbed and plundered by European nations. That's not something they can just dust themselves down from and get on with it.
We can't pretend that we, in the modern day, don't still benefit from ripping off other countries. Why else would a tiny island in the Atlantic be doing so well despite having no resources to speak of.
There's certainly a link between ethnicity and poverty, but I think it's quite a complex issue. Most immigration is driven by necessity, or desperation even, fleeing from poverty, war, persecution or famine.* Very few leave their native land on a whim, because they fancy a change of scenery. My father arrived in Scotland from Italy, to work on a dairy farm in 1958. He had to borrow his train fare, which he paid back from his wages as soon as he could. He was by no means unique in this regard. That he remained on a farm until he retired was solely down to the fact that his children did well at school and he and my mother placed a high value on education. He could have followed in the footsteps of many of our relatives, who opened chip shops, restaurants, cafes, etc. and are now very well off, thank you very much. To start a business he'd have needed at least one of us to follow him into it as he, like the rest of his generation, didn't have the necessary language skills. My uncles and aunts were able to do this with the help of their children.
You might be thinking that Italians are white Europeans so they can escape from humble beginnings because they're not a different race. OK, I'll give you our Asian community. Drive past the Mosque on Woodmill Road at lunchtime on a Friday and see for yourself an impressive line of Audis, BMWs and Mercs, stretching either side of it. Now there doesn't appear to be much of a link between ethnicity and poverty there.
The situation with people of black African origin does appear to be different and I don't pretend to know the answer. I do know that the immigrant Italian community, in Scotland and elsewhere, tend to help each other out, e.g. when a cash loan is required by a family to start a business. (Repayment terms are usually less onerous than those of a bank.) I believe this is also true of Britain's Jewish and Asian communities. Perhaps those from African or Carribean origin are not in a position to help one another because they're all relatively poor?
Your choice of India to illustrate the link between ethnicity and poverty is not the example I'd have chosen. Of course the British plundered the sub continent after brutally subjugating its people but India did have a caste system of haves and have nots, before the Brits arrived, although they contrived to exacerbate matters further by widening the gaps between rich and poor.
Anyway, I haven't provided any clarity regarding the link, except to suggest that there is a way out of poverty in this country, but for some ethnic groups it appears to be too steep a climb.
*Please, please, please, do yourself a favour and read "Bloody Foreigners - The Story of Immigration to Britain", by Robert Winder. A brilliant, brilliant read. You can borrow a copy from your local library, if you're too poor or too tight to buy it. 😉
Not your average Sunday League player.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Wed 8 Jul 14:12
There's certainly a link between ethnicity and poverty, but I think it's quite a complex issue. Most immigration is driven by necessity, or desperation even, fleeing from poverty, war, persecution or famine.* Very few leave their native land on a whim, because they fancy a change of scenery.
That's the same point that I'm making GG, just I'm wondering why the global poverty which influences waves of immigration comes from - what causes the upheaval?
There was a huge influx of German immigration to the US in the 1920s as a result of the First World War, leading to people with German heritage being demonised in the US at the time so that Germans were less likely to find good employment or social status as a result. That Germany had been on the opposing side to the US during the war probably didn't help. But we don't tend to think of German folk as being "prone" to poverty or social exclusion so that example seems to indicate that there's not a racial aspect at the root, it's more xenophobia than racism.
On one level what we're dealing with is folk who have escaped hellish situations not of their making who have to live in an environment which is hostile to their presence. But on another we're wondering why those upheavals take place where and when they do and whether there is anything we can do to mitigate or prevent them.
I would contend that much of the damage in many parts of the world was already done during the colonial era when we dismantled functioning (if not perfect or necessarily even fair or just by our standards) social systems and left systems in place which were designed to efficiently move the wealth out of the country.
Your choice of India to illustrate the link between ethnicity and poverty is not the example I'd have chosen. Of course the British plundered the sub continent after brutally subjugating its people but India did have a caste system of haves and have nots, before the Brits arrived, although they contrived to exacerbate matters further by widening the gaps between rich and poor.
It's worth remembering that India wasn't a single homogenous nation before the Raj, it was a system of cultures with rising and falling Empires and many different religions, languages and traditions. Hindu culture has the caste system but Sikh, Buddhist and Muslims don't. Also, because their were rising and falling empires, the wealth was recirculated fairly regularly, whereas under the Raj it was transported off to build grand avenues and Palaces in London. Before the Raj, if there was a famine it was because the crops failed for whatever reason but during the Raj it was generally because the available food was exported to feed British people.
People are rightly critical of individuals like Hitler and Stalin but few look closely at the corporate power that causes just as much, if not more, suffering and death. The British East India Company is a shining example of such a corporate body which used the cloak of free trade to devastate huge parts of the world.
Union Carbide is another - they are an example of how modern corporate interests keep poor people poor (how else do they get cheap labour?) and the Bhopal disaster is woefully obscure in this country given the damage it did compared to something like Chernobyl despite it having killed many times more people whilst being just as preventable.
The enemy travels by private jet, not by dinghy.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: ianbd6
Date: Mon 21 Sep 21:30
Well I have finally read the book bloody foreigners recommended by GG Riva. It was a very good read indeed. I found the book very informative. In places it made me smile and others it made me want to almost weep. When I first read the opening post I didn't believe that we are all inherently racist and I am still not sure. I think that we are all ignorant of the facts of others ways and traditions and that ignorance prejudices us against them. The book shows that whatever a person's creed ,colour or ethnicity there is a good chance they will be discriminated against by some body even their own kind. Reading the names of all the countries where the immigrant's came from reminded me of junior school and my school mates some of whom were either born or their parents were born in countries such as Hungary,Russia, Ukraine, Poland, Jamaica, Barbados, the North and South of Ireland, Nigeria and India. I can't remember any racism although that doesn't mean that there wasn't any. You were more likely to get stick if you were fat or had ginger hair. What the book left me with was a mystery. Where are all the English😀. Thanks GG Riva for the recommendation.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: twin par
Date: Mon 21 Sep 22:36
On a slightly different slant on this,slavery wise.Talking to a Italian friend of mine.She thinks if all protesters had all their way ,all Italy's statues, and that includes the colleceumm, should be demolished, as they were built by slaves.And by the way includes a certain wall in Britain. That is just wiping out historic facts.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Mon 21 Sep 22:40
Something to ponder
Is it time to dismantle the Pyramids, (Built by slaves)?
Is it Time to dismantle the Taj Mahal (Built by slaves)?
Is it time to dismantle the Great Wall of China, (Built by slaves)?
Is it time to dismantle the Parthenon (Built by slaves)?
Is it time to dismantle the Colosseum (Built by slaves)?
Is it time to destroy the Roman Roads throughout Europe, (Built by Slaves)?
Is it Time to dismantle the Sultan Ahmed Mosque in Istanbul (Built by slaves)?
So many of the world’s most beautiful and iconic buildings were all built by Slaves of ALL creeds and colours, The list is endless - So should we therefore destroy all of our human heritage and history because people today are so historically ignorant, uneducated, and unwilling to listen or talk properly without shouting and as such they have no real idea or concept of the sacrifices made on their behalf by their ancestors to ensure they are and will remain free. Through us remembering and accepting that NO form of slavery is acceptable?
We can't change the past by simply erasing it, no amount of money will change the feelings that would still remain either, BUT we can Learn from it and move forward. For too many years History has been Bastardised so much that it has promoted Racism through misinformation to suit a narrative.
Slavery continues today in many parts of Africa and the Middle East – what is going to be done there?
We are not born Racist - Racism only exists if we let it, if we "pigeon hole" people into groups, if we "label" groups or individuals, and as I said before if we bastardise history to suit a narrative.
We all bleed Red, and at some time in history we are all descendants of slaves, be it 5, 50, 500, or 5000 years ago.
Not only black, EVERY life matters.
Food for thought."
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Tue 22 Sep 08:31
Quote:
ianbd6, Mon 21 Sep 21:30
Well I have finally read the book bloody foreigners recommended by GG Riva. It was a very good read indeed. I found the book very informative. In places it made me smile and others it made me want to almost weep. When I first read the opening post I didn't believe that we are all inherently racist and I am still not sure. I think that we are all ignorant of the facts of others ways and traditions and that ignorance prejudices us against them. The book shows that whatever a person's creed ,colour or ethnicity there is a good chance they will be discriminated against by some body even their own kind. Reading the names of all the countries where the immigrant's came from reminded me of junior school and my school mates some of whom were either born or their parents were born in countries such as Hungary,Russia, Ukraine, Poland, Jamaica, Barbados, the North and South of Ireland, Nigeria and India. I can't remember any racism although that doesn't mean that there wasn't any. You were more likely to get stick if you were fat or had ginger hair. What the book left me with was a mystery. Where are all the English😀. Thanks GG Riva for the recommendation.
I'm delighted you enjoyed the book, Ian. Best factual book I've ever read. Well researched and cleverly written with a good balance of poignancy, humour and irony. I'd make it compulsory reading for anyone convicted of a racist offence.
I'm not sure we're all inherently racist, either. That's why I posed the question. I am certain that we're all instinctively cautious or wary around people we don't know. This can morph into racism if we listen to the opinions of racists. That's why young people need to be educated at an early age, before their minds are poisoned by ignorant racists.
Getting to know people of other races and cultures can help to break down barriers, as we can then see that, below the skin, we're all human beings. You're race or skin colour doesn't determine the kind of person you are, but your upbringing does.
Not your average Sunday League player.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Luxembourg Par
Date: Tue 22 Sep 10:24
Ain't no Chinks, Wogs, Wops, Tims, Huns or gayboys calling me inherently nuthin'.
Seriously tho - I echo GG's post, intolerance of others - be it race, religion or orientation - is mainly due to upbringing and attitudes of those around us.
Physical appearance is usually the first thing we notice about a person on first encounter, including skin colour, physical size/shape, tattoos, hairstyle, dress.
We often subconsciously make assumptions based on our personal previous experience or preconceived perception.
How many people cross the road, look away and don't engage when (for example) a large chap with very short hair and tattoos walks towards us?
My daughters are lucky to have grown up in a very diverse environment, school classes will typically contain a dozen or so different nationalities with various different ethnicities
(a lack of Asians working in the EU institutions means that there are few kids at the school, but everyone else is well represented)
Off the top of my head, the last birthday party I hosted for my youngest had kids that were English, Swedish, Danish, German, Belgian, Estonian, Romanian and Bulgarian, (no French kids - they seem to be very aloof and non-inclusive).
One kid was half Chilean, another half Mauritian, one from Belgian Congo heritage, the English kid regaled us of tales about walking with lions near her grandparents house in Zambia.
A huge happy non-racist melange of screaming kids...
(btw - ALL kids love Pizza Hut grub, just make sure that there's a veggie pizza ordered, there's always one...)
Sounds like ammunition for the Kalergi plan theorists :-/
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Tue 22 Sep 20:15
I’m not so confident that educating children about racism is the answer. Young children are usually very democratic when playing together. For them the game is more important than who is taking part therefore so long as another child is joining in and playing fair, nothing much else matters. They don’t seem to need lectures from adults on that score. Maybe they should be educating us.
It’s the cultural and political structures constructed by adults which are the problem since these can over ride the child’s instinctive sense of fairness or even a child’s exposure to a different culture. Of the names Bobby Sands, Billy Giles and Willie Frazer probably Sands, the IRA hunger striker, is the one most would recognise. Bobby Sands was a keen footballer and played left back as a teenager in a team comprising lads from both republican and loyalist households. He had protestant friends as a result but the onset of the troubles in 1969 saw these contacts break down. Much the same was true of Billy Giles, a UVF member who shot dead a catholic workmate and friend and eventually took his own life ashamed of what he had done. Willie Frazer was, until his recent death, a foghorn spokesman for the Ulster cause but as a village boy had attended the nearest primary school which happened to be a catholic one, and enjoyed friendships with catholic boys as well as playing Gaelic football. As boys, none of the three seemed to have a problem interacting with boys from different backgrounds. As adults, they all did eventually.
These examples are sectarian but given that in DNA terms the Ulsterman and Irishman are effectively cousins, it does not give one great hope of tackling racism. I don’t think that racism is any more innate than sectarianism but instead develops where there is a perceived threat in relation to employment, housing, culture and most importantly political control.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Tue 22 Sep 21:09
The drumbeat of Jimmy Sands
We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
Post Edited (Wed 23 Sep 09:14)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Wed 23 Sep 07:15
Quote:
sammer, Tue 22 Sep 20:15
I’m not so confident that educating children about racism is the answer. Young children are usually very democratic when playing together. For them the game is more important than who is taking part therefore so long as another child is joining in and playing fair, nothing much else matters. They don’t seem to need lectures from adults on that score. Maybe they should be educating us.
I hear what you're saying, Sammer, but I fear that for most racially- minded adults, education is futile. They're already set in their ways - nothing and no one is going to changed their mindset, in much the same way as those who habit either side of the sectarian divide.
Not your average Sunday League player.
|
|
|
|
|
|
