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Topic Originator: desparado
Date: Sun 28 May 21:28
https://fb.watch/kPsx2uSdcM/
This guy certainly seems to know his stuff. Biggest con ever perpetuated on mankind..?
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Topic Originator: sadindiefreak
Date: Sun 28 May 21:50
Quote:
desparado, Sun 28 May 21:28
https://fb.watch/kPsx2uSdcM/
This guy certainly seems to know his stuff. Biggest con ever perpetuated on mankind..?
David Martin is not a real Dr.
He uses the title to make it seem like he knows what he is talking about.
He is a financial analyst with a youtube channel who makes his money peddling conspiracy theories.
A good rule of thumb is that if someone uses the title Dr to make you think they are a medical professional then they can`t really be trusted on the medical stuff they are talking about.
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Topic Originator: Bletchley_Par
Date: Sun 28 May 22:38
I think it`s the second biggest.
Post Edited (Sun 28 May 22:38)
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Topic Originator: PARrot
Date: Mon 29 May 00:09
Quote:
desparado, Sun 28 May 21:28
https://fb.watch/kPsx2uSdcM/
This guy certainly seems to know his stuff. Biggest con ever perpetuated on mankind..?
If you are the conspiracy theory type you will latch on to anything with a pseudo title that gives credance to what you want to believe, regardless of the facts.
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Topic Originator: Bletchley_Par
Date: Mon 29 May 00:38
If only Sweden had locked down like everyone else, they`d have the same level of excess deaths and the "conspiracy theorists" would not have facts on their side.
The Great Barrington Declaration has been proven correct.
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Topic Originator: sadindiefreak
Date: Mon 29 May 09:01
Quote:
Bletchley_Par, Mon 29 May 00:38
If only Sweden had locked down like everyone else, they`d have the same level of excess deaths and the "conspiracy theorists" would not have facts on their side.
The Great Barrington Declaration has been proven correct.
Sweden is less densely populated, people adhered to social distancing and wearing masks, plus had one of the highest rates for vaccination in the world.......Next.
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Topic Originator: Bletchley_Par
Date: Mon 29 May 10:07
No, let`s not go "next" quite yet.
"plus had one of the highest rates for vaccination in the world"
Swedish vaccination rate of at least 1 dose = 77.42%
Below countries like...
Palau
Nauru
Malta
Brunei
United Arab Emirates
Qatar
Samoa
Portugal
Nepal
Cuba
Chile
Nicaragua
Vietnam
China
Peru
Taiwan
Bangladesh
Argentina
Cambodia
Canada
Iceland
Bhutan
Costa Rica
New Zealand
Brazil
Spain
Mauritius
Singapore
Korea, South
Australia
Seychelles
Malaysia
Ecuador
Uruguay
Laos
Kiribati
Colombia
Italy
France
Ireland
Japan
Tonga
Thailand
Denmark
Botswana
Finland
United States
Panama
Rwanda
Israel
Tuvalu
Kuwait
Belgium
Norway
Sri Lanka
Fiji
United Kingdom
Marshall Islands
Germany
Venezuela
San Marino
Saudi Arabia
Iran
Mexico
SOURCE = John Hopkins University of Medicine
https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/vaccines/international
"Sweden is less densely populated"
While Sweden is a large country by area with a relatively small population, most of it`s inhabitants live in large cities 87% live in urban areas.
"At the end of 2018, 87 percent of Sweden`s population lived in an urban area. This share is unchanged from 2015. An urban area has at least 200 inhabitants, according to the Swedish definition, which means that urban areas comprise the largest cities, as well as small areas with just over 200 inhabitants."
SOURCE = SCB Statistics Sweden
https://shorturl.at/jxyB0.
Post Edited (Mon 29 May 10:55)
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Topic Originator: Bletchley_Par
Date: Mon 29 May 10:31
Urbanization by sovereign state
Even incliding the 100% urbanised islands Sweden is one of the most urbanised countries in the world.
1 Kuwait 100
1 Monaco 100
1 Nauru 100
1 Singapore 100
1 Vatican City 100
– Anguilla (UK) 100
– Bermuda (UK) 100
– Cayman Islands (UK) 100
– Gibraltar (UK) 100
– Hong Kong (China) 100
– Macau (China) 100
– Sint Maarten (Netherlands) 100
6 Qatar 99.2
7 Belgium 98.1
8 San Marino 97.5
– U.S. Virgin Islands (US) 95.9
9 Uruguay 95.5
– Guam (US) 94.9
10 Malta 94.7
11 Iceland 93.9
– Puerto Rico (US) 93.6
– Turks and Caicos Islands (UK) 93.6
12 Israel 92.6
13 Netherlands 92.2
14 Argentina 92.1
– Northern Mariana Islands (US) 91.8
15 Japan 91.8
16 Luxembourg 91.5
17 Jordan 91.4
– Saint Pierre and Miquelon (France) 90
18 Gabon 90.1
19 Bahrain 89.5
– Curaçao (Netherlands) 89.1
20 Lebanon 88.9
21 Venezuela 88.3
22 Denmark 88.1
23 Sweden 88
SOURCE = CIA World factbook via Wikipedia
https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/field/urbanization/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urbanization_by_sovereign_state
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Mon 29 May 11:13
Probably best to compare Swedish stats to those of its Nordic neighbours.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: Bletchley_Par
Date: Mon 29 May 11:26
Quote:
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks like
Date: Mon 29 May 11:13
Probably best to compare Swedish stats to those of its Nordic neighbours.
% OF POPULATION RECEIVING AT LEAST 1 DOSE
Iceland 90.77%
Denmark 82.17%
Finland 82.05%
Norway 80.18%
Sweden 77.42%
Sweden is the least vaccinated of all the Nordic/Scandinavian countries.
SOURCE = John Hopkins University of Medicine
https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/vaccines/international
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Topic Originator: sadindiefreak
Date: Mon 29 May 11:43
Quote:
Bletchley_Par, Mon 29 May 11:26
Quote:
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks like
Date: Mon 29 May 11:13
Probably best to compare Swedish stats to those of its Nordic neighbours.
% OF POPULATION RECEIVING AT LEAST 1 DOSE
Iceland 90.77%
Denmark 82.17%
Finland 82.05%
Norway 80.18%
Sweden 77.42%
Sweden is the least vaccinated of all the Nordic/Scandinavian countries.
SOURCE = John Hopkins University of Medicine
https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/vaccines/international
Sorry if I don`t trust your source but they have some countries there with more than 100% vaccinated. I would question just how reliable that is.
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Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Mon 29 May 11:54
What I love about this particular conspiracy is that it assumes that all global leaders agreed on something for the first time ever.
The idea that North Korea, Iraq and Israel, for example, would perpetuate the same myth is pretty wild.
And I thought that the folk who believed the USSR and the USA conspired to fake a moon landing was far fetched.
The enemy travels by private jet, not by dinghy.
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Mon 29 May 12:09
BP, I was talking about other stats. Like how does the Swedish infection and death rate compare to it`s Nordic neighbours.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: PARrot
Date: Mon 29 May 12:11
Quote:
Wotsit, Mon 29 May 11:54
What I love about this particular conspiracy is that it assumes that all global leaders agreed on something for the first time ever.
The idea that North Korea, Iraq and Israel, for example, would perpetuate the same myth is pretty wild.
And I thought that the folk who believed the USSR and the USA conspired to fake a moon landing was far fetched.
Precisely.
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Topic Originator: DBP
Date: Mon 29 May 12:55
But Sweden would also have been impacted by other countries actions as well... Or did every other country allow Swedish holiday makers to travel and mingle with their local population?
So is it not true that they as a country, were both still in effective lock down and essentially adhered to guidelines without needing them to be put in law?
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Topic Originator: Bletchley_Par
Date: Mon 29 May 12:57
John Hopkins data sources.
Data source: CDC, WHO, Our World in Data, How to use our data.
John Hopkins rated the best overall hospital in USA for 21 consecutive years.
"Johns Hopkins Hospital is widely regarded as one of the world`s greatest hospitals and medical institutions.[9] It was ranked by U.S. News & World Report news magazine as the best overall hospital in America for 21 consecutive years (1991–2011). In 2019–2020, U.S. News & World Report ranked the hospital on 15 adult specialties and 10 children`s specialties; the hospital came in 1st in Maryland and 3rd nationally behind the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota and Mass General in Boston, Massachusetts.[10] In 2021 the hospital marked 32 consecutive years of placing in the top 5 hospitals in the nation."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johns_Hopkins_University
Quote:
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak like
Date: Mon 29 May 11:11
93.5% vaccinated in Sweden according to this study.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/14034948221099410
Is is not saying 93.5% of Sweden is vaccinated, it is saying that is the percentage vaccinated in their sample size of their study of 2144 participants.
Quote:
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak like
Date: Mon 29 May 11:43
Sorry if I don`t trust your source but they have some countries there with more than 100% vaccinated. I would question just how reliable that is.
The Source of the number of vaccines administered is the World Health Organization and the source of the population is World in Data (Oxford University).
The countries that show greater than 100% are small islands who`s population was unreliable or UAE where there are large numbers of migrant workers set against a small naturalized population.
If you have more reliable statistics than the WHO and Oxford University feel free to present it.
Post Edited (Mon 29 May 13:01)
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Topic Originator: Bletchley_Par
Date: Mon 29 May 14:11
Quote:
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks like
Date: Mon 29 May 12:09
BP, I was talking about other stats. Like how does the Swedish infection and death rate compare to it`s Nordic neighbours.
Cumulative excess deaths in Sweden and OECD countries
Finland 9%
Iceland 7%
Denmark 6%
Norway 4%
Sweden 3%
Source OCED, Eurostat, compiled by the Spectator.
https://i.ibb.co/fMGTtfL/sweeden.png
So Sweden is least vaccinated of the 5 Nordic countries, has the least number of excess deaths and it is one of the most urbanised countries in the world.
It choose the route of herd/natural immunity against lockdowns as recommended in the Great Barrington Declaration.
Post Edited (Mon 29 May 14:49)
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Topic Originator: Parboiled
Date: Mon 29 May 14:15
Sturgeon came very close to eliminating it in the summer of 2020 dontcha know..
Only being unable to close the border thwarted her. If she had her way she would now be President of the UN, instead of a getting a tent in her garden and cops rummaging through through her and Pedro’s knicker drawers.
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Mon 29 May 14:38
Johnson managed to catch it but now we`re being told it was all a hoax. You don`t know who to believe do you?
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Mon 29 May 16:29
What`s the biggest con BP? I really hope you`re not going to answer what I fear you might answer with.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: P
Date: Mon 29 May 21:56
I take it Bletchley Par is Rastas new handle?
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Topic Originator: veteraneastender
Date: Mon 29 May 22:07
Where`s Jason Leitch when he`s needed ?
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Topic Originator: Bletchley_Par
Date: Mon 29 May 22:47
Quote:
Topic Originator: P like
Date: Mon 29 May 21:56
I take it Bletchley Par is Rastas new handle?
I don`t recall him citing such mainstream sources as I have done here (The World Health Organisation, Oxford University, OCED, John Hopkins University). If that is a serious accusation rather than a coping mechanism to deal with the evidence I have presented here I would question your deductive reasoning.
Sweden appears to have taken the most successful approach to dealing with Covid, pretty much in line with The Great Barrington Declaration. If you can provide evidence to the contrary, I`d love to hear it.
Post Edited (Mon 29 May 22:47)
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Topic Originator: PARrot
Date: Tue 30 May 01:44
Regardless of who handled it best or worst, the virus wasnt a hoax.
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Topic Originator: Bletchley_Par
Date: Tue 30 May 03:00
Quote:
Topic Originator: PARrot like
Date: Tue 30 May 01:44
Regardless of who handled it best or worst, the virus wasn`t a hoax.
The video in the OP, did not claim it was a hoax and no one in this thread claimed it was a hoax until "wee eck" showed a few posts ago talking about Boris Johnston.
I can speak from personal experience having being hospitalised with it that is was a very nasty virus.
I`m gonna take a stab and say you didn`t watch the video and you have misconstrued how the word "con" is being used in this instance and you have stumbled into this thread not knowing what it is actually about determined to impart some hubristic wisdom.
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Tue 30 May 07:05
`Conspiracy`, `con`, `hoax` - a few of us have got the wrong message apparently. Maybe a brief summary of the opening video would have been more informative than quoting screeds of statistics.
And you haven`t answered the question about what you think the biggest `con` of all time was.
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Topic Originator: Bletchley_Par
Date: Tue 30 May 10:23
Quote:
Topic Originator: wee eck like
Date: Tue 30 May 07:05
`Conspiracy`, `con`, `hoax` - a few of us have got the wrong message apparently. Maybe a brief summary of the opening video would have been more informative than quoting screeds of statistics.
My "screeds" of statistics as you put it was to combat sadindiefreak`s misinformation that Sweden had one of the highest vaccination rates in the world, his disinformation about population density and his derision with regard to my reputable sources.
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Tue 30 May 10:49
OK. We`re still waiting to hear what the biggest con of all time was.
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Tue 30 May 10:51
The Swedish covid deathrate far exceeds it`s Nordic neighbours.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: OzPar
Date: Tue 30 May 11:06
"The Swedish covid death rate far exceeds its Nordic neighbours."
Yes, that is quite correct. Here are the latest COVID death figures:-
SWEDEN......24,353
NORWAY......5,435
DENMARK....8,695
FINLAND......9,676
(Source: Worldometer)
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Topic Originator: veteraneastender
Date: Tue 30 May 14:27
In which case the Swedish approach would appear to be the lesser prudent choice ?
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Topic Originator: Bletchley_Par
Date: Tue 30 May 14:36
Quote:
Topic Originator: veteraneastender like
Date: Tue 30 May 14:27
In which case the Swedish approach would appear to be the lesser prudent choice ?
"The cure must not be more deadly than the disease."
If you believe that axiom to be true then excess deaths is the metric you should be defining prudence by.
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Topic Originator: veteraneastender
Date: Tue 30 May 16:02
"OK. We`re still waiting to hear what the biggest con of all time was."
Signing Doug Considine ?
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Topic Originator: veteraneastender
Date: Tue 30 May 16:11
"If you believe that axiom to be true then excess deaths is the metric you should be defining prudence by."
Going by what was flagged up by Oz Par - the Swedish approach didn`t work out as well as their neighbours ?
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Tue 30 May 16:31
Not long to wait for the answer!
`In an update on the Covid-19 inquiry, chair Baroness Hallett has said she aims to conclude public hearings by summer 2026.`
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Topic Originator: PARrot
Date: Tue 30 May 16:46
Quote:
wee eck, Tue 30 May 10:49
OK. We`re still waiting to hear what the biggest con of all time was.
Donald Trump.
End of debate.
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Topic Originator: Bletchley_Par
Date: Tue 30 May 16:59
Quote:
Topic Originator: veteraneastender
Date: Tue 30 May 16:11
"If you believe that axiom to be true then excess deaths is the metric you should be defining prudence by."
Going by what was flagged up by Oz Par - the Swedish approach didn`t work out as well as their neighbours ?
Those figures are not excess deaths, I listed the excess deaths for the Nordic countries further up.
Here they are again in case you missed it.
Cumulative excess deaths in Sweden and OECD countries
Finland 9%
Iceland 7%
Denmark 6%
Norway 4%
Sweden 3%
Source OCED, Eurostat, compiled by the Spectator.
https://i.ibb.co/fMGTtfL/sweeden.png
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Topic Originator: OzPar
Date: Tue 30 May 23:08
Perhaps a more reliable source would be The Economist, which at the peak of the outbreak, produced a very detailed country-by-country breakdown of excess deaths. Below is a quote from the article...
"Countries in northern Europe have generally experienced much lower mortality rates throughout the pandemic. Some Nordic nations have experienced almost no excess deaths at all. The exception is Sweden, which imposed some of the continent’s least restrictive social-distancing measures during the first wave."
The full article is here...
https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/coronavirus-excess-deaths-tracker
Post Edited (Tue 30 May 23:20)
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Topic Originator: Bletchley_Par
Date: Tue 30 May 23:40
Yes, I suspected the Spectator would be an issue and that the far-left Economist would be the first port of call.
That article is from October 2021, The Spectator`s is from March 2023. I suspect the Economist is not doing such an article now for the same reason The Spectator did not do one then.
So going straight to the source material, here is the graph for the 5 Nordic countries up till March 2023.
Here is the raw data running from Jan 2021 to Feb 2023, I`d draw your attention to Sweden`s excess death rates compared to the others and to the EU`s average.
Only for two months out of the 24 covered does Sweden`s excess death rates slightly exceed the EU`s average.
Sweden did not get everything right, their use of Midazolam and Opiates in the early stage of the pandemic had a devastating effect, a mistake we also made in the UK but we probably wont get that in the mainstream until those who made the decision are out of power or retired on a tidy pension.
Post Edited (Tue 30 May 23:43)
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Topic Originator: OzPar
Date: Wed 31 May 07:30
I had a chuckle at your comment that The Economist is far-left. Prominent among its past editors is Andrew Neil. These days, I think you would struggle to find a more centrist, less biased publication.
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Wed 31 May 12:10
Can someone summarise the truth?
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Topic Originator: Bletchley_Par
Date: Wed 31 May 13:51
Quote:
Topic Originator: OzPar like
Date: Wed 31 May 07:30
I had a chuckle at your comment that The Economist is far-left. Prominent among its past editors is Andrew Neil. These days, I think you would struggle to find a more centrist, less biased publication.
Andrew Neil has never been editor of The Economist.
The editor-in-chief, commonly known simply as "the Editor", of The Economist is charged with formulating the paper`s editorial policies and overseeing corporate operations. Since its 1843 founding, the editors have been:
James Wilson: 1843–1857
Richard Holt Hutton: 1857–1861[note 1]
Walter Bagehot: 1861–1877[note 2]
Daniel Conner Lathbury: 1877–1881[note 3] (jointly)
Robert Harry Inglis Palgrave: 1877–1883 (jointly)
Edward Johnstone: 1883–1907[43]
Francis Wrigley Hirst: 1907–1916
Hartley Withers: 1916–1921
Sir Walter Layton: 1922–1938
Geoffrey Crowther: 1938–1956
Donald Tyerman: 1956–1965
Sir Alastair Burnet: 1965–1974
Andrew Knight: 1974–1986
Rupert Pennant-Rea: 1986–1993
Bill Emmott: 1993–2006
John Micklethwait: 2006–2014[44]
Zanny Minton Beddoes: 2015–present[45] [
Post Edited (Wed 31 May 13:54)
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Topic Originator: sadindiefreak
Date: Wed 31 May 14:23
Andrew Neil was an editor at The Ecomonist.
Oz certainly didn`t refer to him as "the editor."
Neil was editor for the publications "Britain" section.
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Topic Originator: Bletchley_Par
Date: Wed 31 May 14:53
Quote:
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak like
Date: Wed 31 May 14:23
Andrew Neil was an editor at The Ecomonist.
Oz certainly didn`t refer to him as "the editor."
Neil was editor for the publications "Britain" section.
Can you provide a list of "Section Editors" of the Economist so we can see how "prominent" Andrew Neil was in that list?
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Topic Originator: sadindiefreak
Date: Wed 31 May 14:56
Do it matter how prominent he was?
Oz stated he was an editor.
That is a fact.
You twisted what he claimed to suit your agenda and got called out on it.
He was an editor at The Economist end of story.
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Topic Originator: Bletchley_Par
Date: Wed 31 May 15:00
He also stated he was prominent.
Andrew Neil would never be announced anywhere as a former Editor of the Economist, stop playing silly buggers.
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Topic Originator: sadindiefreak
Date: Wed 31 May 15:05
Quote:
Bletchley_Par, Wed 31 May 15:00
He also stated he was prominent.
Andrew Neil would never be announced anywhere as a former Editor of the Economist, stop playing silly buggers.
This is his profile from a company that books him out as a "speaker" at events.
Seems his own profile bigs up his position at The Economist a lot.
He himself thinks it`s a big deal.
https://www.specialistspeakers.com/?p=184
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Topic Originator: P
Date: Wed 31 May 22:21
Can I add myself to the list of people asking what the con is or what the summary of the truth is?
I’m not going to watch the video in the OP so if anyone’s committed to it’s content I am sure they can cover off the main talking points in a few words. Seems a bit weird other requests for this have been ignored though
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Topic Originator: Bletchley_Par
Date: Thu 1 Jun 10:10
The con was the lockdowns for all.
The truth is thus.
Covid killed people.
Lockdowns killed people.
Somewhere in between strict lockdowns and completely open society is the correct balance to prevent as many deaths as possible.
Sweden was closer to the "completely open society" than other comparable countries, I and others maintain the data is increasing looking like Sweden had the best strategy, others disagree.
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Thu 1 Jun 17:30
The government is to launch a legal challenge over the Covid inquiry`s demand for WhatsApp messages and documents.
It was given until 4pm to disclose messages between Boris Johnson and his advisers during the pandemic, as well as his diaries and notebooks.
The government has refused to disclose some of the material, arguing it is not relevant to the inquiry`s work.
We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert
Date: Thu 1 Jun 18:01
Quote:
Buspasspar, Thu 1 Jun 17:30
The government is to launch a legal challenge over the Covid inquiry`s demand for WhatsApp messages and documents.
It was given until 4pm to disclose messages between Boris Johnson and his advisers during the pandemic, as well as his diaries and notebooks.
The government has refused to disclose some of the material, arguing it is not relevant to the inquiry`s work.
Seems that Rishi could be seriously implicated in the financial dealings!
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Thu 1 Jun 18:31
Some saying it is to protect Rishi and others from possible prosecution LA
We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert
Date: Thu 1 Jun 19:00
In it up to their necks!😡
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Topic Originator: PARrot
Date: Thu 1 Jun 19:07
Quote:
Bletchley_Par, Thu 1 Jun 10:10
The con was the lockdowns for all.
The truth is thus.
Covid killed people.
Lockdowns killed people.
Somewhere in between strict lockdowns and completely open society is the correct balance to prevent as many deaths as possible.
Sweden was closer to the "completely open society" than other comparable countries, I and others maintain the data is increasing looking like Sweden had the best strategy, others disagree.
If you had been as clear as this at the start you probably wouldn`t have attracted so much hostility.
I totally disagreed with what I thought you were sdying but this got my attention.
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Topic Originator: Milos Drizzle
Date: Thu 1 Jun 21:55
Quote:
PARrot, Thu 1 Jun 19:07
Quote:
Bletchley_Par, Thu 1 Jun 10:10
The con was the lockdowns for all.
The truth is thus.
Covid killed people.
Lockdowns killed people.
Somewhere in between strict lockdowns and completely open society is the correct balance to prevent as many deaths as possible.
Sweden was closer to the "completely open society" than other comparable countries, I and others maintain the data is increasing looking like Sweden had the best strategy, others disagree.
If you had been as clear as this at the start you probably wouldn`t have attracted so much hostility.
I totally disagreed with what I thought you were sdying but this got my attention.
Agreed. We all want to learn from this, and I hope our Government and research institutions are doing exactly that. But what I won’t do is listen to YouTube entrepreneurs and disgruntled ex-big-pharma.
This is my signature
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Fri 2 Jun 09:36
One hospital doctor`s take on things :-
`When the initial data on Covid emerged, there was a very high mortality prediction. Covid was a proper threat to life – extremely transmissible, with a genuine fear that it was going to kill even more people than it did. With hindsight, it’s easy to say some things should have been done differently, but, based on the available evidence, I think governments around the world were acting in people’s best interests.`
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Topic Originator: P
Date: Fri 2 Jun 22:05
Quote:
wee eck, Fri 2 Jun 09:36
One hospital doctor`s take on things :-
`When the initial data on Covid emerged, there was a very high mortality prediction. Covid was a proper threat to life – extremely transmissible, with a genuine fear that it was going to kill even more people than it did. With hindsight, it’s easy to say some things should have been done differently, but, based on the available evidence, I think governments around the world were acting in people’s best interests.`
…..until they weren’t
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Topic Originator: P
Date: Fri 2 Jun 22:07
Quote:
Bletchley_Par, Thu 1 Jun 10:10
The con was the lockdowns for all.
The truth is thus.
Covid killed people.
Lockdowns killed people.
Somewhere in between strict lockdowns and completely open society is the correct balance to prevent as many deaths as possible.
Sweden was closer to the "completely open society" than other comparable countries, I and others maintain the data is increasing looking like Sweden had the best strategy, others disagree.
That’s fair enough and I suspect most people would agree with you to some extent.
I believe folk are generally done with the whole Covid thing and ‘truth’ and ‘con’ type language just sets expectations of here we go again.
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Tue 6 Jun 10:24
Quote:
P, Fri 2 Jun 22:05
Quote:
wee eck, Fri 2 Jun 09:36
One hospital doctor`s take on things :-
`When the initial data on Covid emerged, there was a very high mortality prediction. Covid was a proper threat to life – extremely transmissible, with a genuine fear that it was going to kill even more people than it did. With hindsight, it’s easy to say some things should have been done differently, but, based on the available evidence, I think governments around the world were acting in people’s best interests.`
…..until they weren’t
Big Pharma played a big part in whipping up fear and anxiety for reasons I can`t fathom....... 🤔
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: theparsman1885
Date: Tue 20 Jun 14:08
No doubt there were opportunists throughout the pandemic making money off the vulnerable.
However, let’s not airbrush the truth. When covid first came along it was horrible and scary (still is to some vulnerable people). The figures from China were unreliable, and the best guesses the world had to go on was what happened in Italy. If we had followed the Swedish model, the NHS would have gone under. We simply didn’t have the capacity to cope if larger amounts of people became ill at the same time. Hence the initial lockdown decision had to be taken.
The danger of rerunning all this with alternative truths, is the inability to be able to argue a wider picture. You simply cannot compare Swedens approach to ours directly like for like, because culturally, demographically and geographically we are two completely diverse and different nations and cultures.
I do have a number of differences of opinion with various government decisions (across all nations) on their behaviours and actions throughout the pandemic, but the initial decisions to try and stem the virus flow was eventually the correct one. In the circumstances I would say, the most sensible one, any other approach would be gambling with lives.
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Topic Originator: OzPar
Date: Tue 20 Jun 14:57
The strict and overly-extended lockdowns we experienced in the State of Victoria were difficult to handle then. Still, when Victorians today are asked whether they think it was worth it, the overwhelming majority support the measures.
The consensus is that although the measures were considered draconian, thousands of Victorians who might otherwise be dead had we adopted the Swedish approach are alive today. We finally opened the gates to the outside world once the vaccination program was well established.
Before this occurred, we had some protests in Melbourne, but they were tiny in proportion to the number who supported the measures. The real concern then was enormous public resentment towards the protesters and genuine fears that violence would occur.
What happened in Melbourne was a huge social experiment, possibly only matched in cities in China. Did it work? Yes, but it probably could have been handled gentler.
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Tue 20 Jun 22:03
Lockdowns only work if people follow the rules. Even our PM failed to follow them so comparing a "locked down" country with one that wasn`t is pointless.
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Topic Originator: Bletchley_Par
Date: Mon 7 Aug 20:51
A new report has shed new light on the impact of Nicola Sturgeon`s "intrusive" Covid lockdown restrictions and revealed there is no evidence to say they were effective. Scots were subject to the strictest restrictions in the UK during the pandemic.
The Scottish Government`s handling of coronavirus is going to be scrutinised by the Scottish Covid Inquiry which commissioned an independent report on the epidemiology of the virus.
"insufficient evidence/no evidence to support the use of...."
Face masks outside healthcare settings.
Lockdowns.
Social distancing.
Test, trace and isolate measures.
And on vaccines....
"It remains unclear as to whether or not COVID-19 vaccination has resulted in fewer deaths from COVID-19."
Good news is that handwashing and the use of PPE in hospital settings seems to have been effective.
https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/scottish-news/no-evidence-support-covid-lockdowns-30470038
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Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert
Date: Mon 7 Aug 21:11
Daily Express critical of the Scottish Government, Wow there`s a surprise!🤔😲😎
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Mon 7 Aug 21:31
Not being funny, but I firstly wouldn`t trust anything coming out the Telegraph, but also need question the data. How many of us who were supposedly social distancing were actually round our pals house? I was pretty reasonable with the recommendations but know of many who massively flouted the rules.
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Mon 7 Aug 21:50
If this is a `new report` why is the article dated 14 July and how did they get access to it before the inquiry?
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Topic Originator: sadindiefreak
Date: Mon 7 Aug 21:52
Quote:
Bletchley_Par, Mon 7 Aug 20:51
A new report has shed new light on the impact of Nicola Sturgeon`s "intrusive" Covid lockdown restrictions and revealed there is no evidence to say they were effective. Scots were subject to the strictest restrictions in the UK during the pandemic.
The Scottish Government`s handling of coronavirus is going to be scrutinised by the Scottish Covid Inquiry which commissioned an independent report on the epidemiology of the virus.
"insufficient evidence/no evidence to support the use of...."
Face masks outside healthcare settings.
Lockdowns.
Social distancing.
Test, trace and isolate measures.
And on vaccines....
"It remains unclear as to whether or not COVID-19 vaccination has resulted in fewer deaths from COVID-19."
Good news is that handwashing and the use of PPE in hospital settings seems to have been effective.
https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/scottish-news/no-evidence-support-covid-lockdowns-30470038
It`s only saying there is no evidence mask mandates we`re effective. It`s not saying Lockdowns, Social Distancing and Track and Trace didn`t work. Just a lack of evidence outside those settings that masks worked in reducing transmission.
As for COVID 19 deaths it does show short term reduction in deaths but unclear of long term benefits as the effectiveness is fairly short term. Something we all knew and why boosters are being offered.
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Topic Originator: Andrew283
Date: Tue 8 Aug 00:28
Quote:
Bletchley_Par, Mon 7 Aug 20:51
A new report has shed new light on the impact of Nicola Sturgeon`s "intrusive" Covid lockdown restrictions and revealed there is no evidence to say they were effective. Scots were subject to the strictest restrictions in the UK during the pandemic.
The Scottish Government`s handling of coronavirus is going to be scrutinised by the Scottish Covid Inquiry which commissioned an independent report on the epidemiology of the virus.
"insufficient evidence/no evidence to support the use of...."
Face masks outside healthcare settings.
Lockdowns.
Social distancing.
Test, trace and isolate measures.
And on vaccines....
"It remains unclear as to whether or not COVID-19 vaccination has resulted in fewer deaths from COVID-19."
Good news is that handwashing and the use of PPE in hospital settings seems to have been effective.
https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/scottish-news/no-evidence-support-covid-lockdowns-30470038
I hate how the Trumpian idiocracy has spread.
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Topic Originator: Bletchley_Par
Date: Tue 8 Aug 05:08
Quote:
Topic Originator: wee eck like
Date: Mon 7 Aug 21:50
If this is a `new report` why is the article dated 14 July and how did they get access to it before the inquiry?
Well maybe some sort of gypsy crystal ball? or probably more likely they just read the report when it was published on the 10th of July.
https://www.covid19inquiry.scot
• For other measures (e.g. face mask mandates outside of healthcare settings,
Summary – what do we now know?
lockdowns, social distancing, test, trace and isolate measures) there was either insufficient evidence in 2020 to support their use – or alternatively, no evidence; the evidence base has not changed materially in the intervening three years.
• During March to July 2020 there was limited scientific evidence and in some cases no scientific evidence (e.g. as regards lockdowns) to support the physical measures that were mandated in Scotland against COVID-19. Such evidence as there was (e.g. for mask wearing) mostly came from hospital settings, rather than community settings – and arguably was not applicable to the general, non-hospital population.
• Other groups (children, healthy young adults) were not ever at risk of severe disease.
• It remains unclear as to whether or not COVID-19 vaccination has resulted in fewer deaths from COVID-19.
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Tue 8 Aug 10:23
I often scan the headlines in the Mail/Express/Telegraph when browsing the news stands but wouldn`t normally have the opportunity to read any of their anti-SNP/independence propaganda so thanks for that. The readers` comments at the foot of the article are very illuminating. Just in case they didn`t get the context the Express threw in this gratuitous comment :-
`Ms Sturgeon became notorious during the pandemic for giving autocratic daily briefings about how Scotland was coping with the disease and giving out more mandates.`
My recollection was that, at the time, her presentations were compared favourably with the evasive and rambling performances of the UK Prime Minister.
Imagine the reaction if the Scottish government hadn`t advocated vaccinations for the population.
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Topic Originator: Parboiled
Date: Tue 8 Aug 12:12
Indeed Eck a remarkable woman.Who can forget her boast of “Scotland being not far away from totally eliminating the virus” that summer?
That would have been a headline in the ever truthful National eh?
Post Edited (Tue 08 Aug 12:22)
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Tue 8 Aug 12:58
Aren`t you confusing a boast with an aspiration?
I`ve admitted I don`t read the Express. Are you saying you do read the National? If you do you`ll know it doesn`t give unqualified support to the SNP and Nicola Sturgeon.
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Tue 8 Aug 13:38
The likes of the Telegraph simply report what their ignorant readers want. If they`re suggesting isolating and lock downs were a waste of time, I assume they`re also not interested in a care home investigation then?
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Topic Originator: Bletchley_Par
Date: Tue 8 Aug 14:07
Quote:
Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Tue 8 Aug 10:23
`Ms Sturgeon became notorious during the pandemic for giving autocratic daily briefings about how Scotland was coping with the disease and giving out more mandates.`
My recollection was that, at the time, her presentations were compared favourably with the evasive and rambling performances of the UK Prime Minister.
Imagine the reaction if the Scottish government hadn`t advocated vaccinations for the population.
I`m not really interested in political points scoring against TV`s own Elsie McSelfie, she was only slightly more tyrannical than Boris and slightly less authoritarian than Trudeau or Jacinda McHorseface and just as beholden to "The Science" as the big orange fella.
If the Scottish government hadn`t recommended vaccines I`m sure the medical industrial complex would have got Elsie removed.
Masks were performance art, Lockdowns were a power move and I wish everyone well in the coming months and years ahead with the health choices they were coerced into making or managed to resist.
Post Edited (Tue 08 Aug 14:09)
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Topic Originator: Parboiled
Date: Tue 8 Aug 14:17
Well Eck if it was an aspiration it was a miserable failure like all her other aspirations…!
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Tue 8 Aug 14:31
You`re not really interested in political point scoring so you just make up childish nicknames for politicians you don`t approve of! I recall you comparing living in Scotland to living in a dictatorship which was an insult to those who do.
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Topic Originator: Bletchley_Par
Date: Tue 8 Aug 14:34
Quote:
Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Tue 8 Aug 13:38
The likes of the Telegraph simply report what their ignorant readers want. If they`re suggesting isolating and lock downs were a waste of time.
Remember how on another thread we talked about you "doing better" Jake?
The only person talking about the Telegraph is you, I posted a link from the Scottish Daily Express.
Now before you transfer your ignoramus claims to the Express, the only reason that I linked that news outlet is because it was the first one that popped up on google.
The paper reporting is pretty much irrelevant in this case as it is the report commissioned for the Scottish Government`s own Covid19 inquiry we are actually using here.
Lockdowns and social distancing were a waste of time for children and healthy young adults, the report specifically says that.
Quote:
I assume they`re also not interested in a care home investigation then?
You assume wrong, the inquiry is still ongoing and the decision to transfer Covid19 positive patients from hospital back into care homes is part of the inquiry`s remit.
This is a policy that seems to been almost a universal one, Westminster, New York`s governor Cuomo, the Biden regime, Canada all seemed to have had this disastrous policy.
https://healthandcare.scot/stories/3323/covid-19-inquiry-scotland-lord-brailsford
Post Edited (Tue 08 Aug 14:43)
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Topic Originator: Bletchley_Par
Date: Tue 8 Aug 14:42
Quote:
Topic Originator: wee eck like
Date: Tue 8 Aug 14:31
You`re not really interested in political point scoring so you just make up childish nicknames for politicians you don`t approve of!
Let me fix that statement for you...
You`re not really interested in political point scoring but you use nicknames for politicians you don`t agree with and ones you do agree with because you want to.
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Tue 8 Aug 14:55
It wasn`t a statement, it was my opinion. A lot of the trouble in the world today arises because people can`t make that distinction.
There, I`ve fixed that for you.
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Topic Originator: Bletchley_Par
Date: Tue 8 Aug 15:12
So that sentence you typed with an exclamation mark at the end was not a statement?
Quote:
A lot of the trouble in the world today arises because people can`t make that distinction.
No, most people in the world know a statement can also be an opinion, the trouble seems to come in the obfuscation between statements of fact and statements of opinion.
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Topic Originator: OzPar
Date: Tue 8 Aug 15:41
Today, I went to my doctor and had a Covid booster vaccination in my left arm and a flu vaccination in my right arm.
I did this without any fuss, accepting that my doctor for the past 15 years is medically qualified and has given me sound medical advice throughout my time as his patient.
Some things in life are best left to the experts.
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Topic Originator: red-star-par
Date: Tue 8 Aug 16:00
I still never bothered with the vaccine. I did have covid once, which wasnt really anything to bother about, except for a period of about 2 hours where I was sweating a lot and a couple of days where I couldn`t taste anything (I actually complained about the beer and fish and the breakfast the next morning being tasteless before I started testing positive).
On balance I`m pretty heppy I didn`t take the vaccine, my brothers health deteriorated dramatically within a fortnight of him getting it and he died a few months later (although he wasn`t a well man before, I still thought he had years in him before the vaccine). I do know of several people in my age group, 45-55 who had heart attacks or heart issues after getting the vaccine. Unclear if that is related to the vaccine or getting covid, but I would be pretty worried if I had taken an untried vaccine just because folk said I should
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Tue 8 Aug 16:19
`No, most people in the world know a statement can also be an opinion, the trouble seems to come in the obfuscation between statements of fact and statements of opinion.`
Fair enough but mine was a statement of opinion which can`t be `fixed` by someone changing it.
I wonder if the Daily Express will be previewing any evidence to the inquiry that supports the actions of the Scottish government during the pandemic?
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Topic Originator: Parboiled
Date: Tue 8 Aug 17:18
How can the Express preview evidence that has yet to be given you silly old fart.
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Tue 8 Aug 17:41
Quote:
Bletchley_Par, Tue 8 Aug 14:34
Quote:
Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Tue 8 Aug 13:38
The likes of the Telegraph simply report what their ignorant readers want. If they`re suggesting isolating and lock downs were a waste of time.
Remember how on another thread we talked about you "doing better" Jake?
The only person talking about the Telegraph is you, I posted a link from the Scottish Daily Express.
Now before you transfer your ignoramus claims to the Express, the only reason that I linked that news outlet is because it was the first one that popped up on google.
The paper reporting is pretty much irrelevant in this case as it is the report commissioned for the Scottish Government`s own Covid19 inquiry we are actually using here.
Lockdowns and social distancing were a waste of time for children and healthy young adults, the report specifically says that.
Quote:
I assume they`re also not interested in a care home investigation then?
You assume wrong, the inquiry is still ongoing and the decision to transfer Covid19 positive patients from hospital back into care homes is part of the inquiry`s remit.
This is a policy that seems to been almost a universal one, Westminster, New York`s governor Cuomo, the Biden regime, Canada all seemed to have had this disastrous policy.
https://healthandcare.scot/stories/3323/covid-19-inquiry-scotland-lord-brailsford
"The likes of" being the key point here. The Telegraph, Express and others have all been referenced in response to your post. Of course, you enjoy to pick and choose your information to suit your narrative. If focussing on the Express, it`s interesting they stick in a needless dig about Sturgeons updates, suggesting they were not well received, which is simply untrue.
As always, being clear that I give zero excrements about the SNP, I`m viewing the findings as helpful. No-one could possibly understand the impact of COVID so actions were taken based on existing health protection guidance. However, as with all experiences, it`s important to reflect on what was and was not effective, which is what this report appears to do.
Similarly, actions taken on care homes were on the basis of current understanding and existing processes at that time.
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Topic Originator: Bletchley_Par
Date: Tue 8 Aug 18:01
Quote:
The Telegraph, Express and others have all been referenced in response to your post. .
The only person to reference the Telegraph in response to my post was you.
Quote:
Topic Originator: jake89 like
Date: Mon 7 Aug 21:31
Not being funny, but I firstly wouldn`t trust anything coming out the Telegraph, but also need question the data.
Post Edited (Tue 08 Aug 18:04)
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Topic Originator: Berry
Date: Tue 8 Aug 21:08
Quote:
red-star-par, Tue 08 Aug 16:00
I still never bothered with the vaccine. I did have covid once, which wasnt really anything to bother about, except for a period of about 2 hours where I was sweating a lot and a couple of days where I couldn`t taste anything (I actually complained about the beer and fish and the breakfast the next morning being tasteless before I started testing positive).
On balance I`m pretty heppy I didn`t take the vaccine, my brothers health deteriorated dramatically within a fortnight of him getting it and he died a few months later (although he wasn`t a well man before, I still thought he had years in him before the vaccine). I do know of several people in my age group, 45-55 who had heart attacks or heart issues after getting the vaccine. Unclear if that is related to the vaccine or getting covid, but I would be pretty worried if I had taken an untried vaccine just because folk said I should
Sorry to hear about your brother hope you’re keeping well yourself. I’ve not had the vaccine myself either and similarly caught Covid just the once. Taste had gone and I think it was two days where I was just absolutely beyond knackered, then after that was fine and just locked myself away in a room in the house until I got the negative.
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Tue 8 Aug 22:53
Quote:
Bletchley_Par, Tue 8 Aug 18:01
Quote:
The Telegraph, Express and others have all been referenced in response to your post. .
The only person to reference the Telegraph in response to my post was you.
Quote:
Topic Originator: jake89 like
Date: Mon 7 Aug 21:31
Not being funny, but I firstly wouldn`t trust anything coming out the Telegraph, but also need question the data.
Apologies. I stand corrected. Alas, all these Tory papers fall under the same category.
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Thu 31 Aug 19:41
Covid rife again albeit a reduced strain .. Edinburgh folk dropping like flies after the festival due to all the visitors .. Mrs BPP and all family testing pos after flying home from Spain .. Son in law and his Mum testing pos after fiord cruise
Nothing much on the news tho ?
We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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Topic Originator: Jeffery
Date: Thu 31 Aug 22:30
Big group off at my work last week, all been at a meeting together the week before. All have the ability to work from home but incapable due to covid. Must be a rough variant.
Imagine the lack of coverage is because almost no official testing is going on or being recorded, therefore nothing specific for the press to fill pages with daily.
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Fri 1 Sep 09:59
There`s a big article about it on the BBC Scotland website. Here`s an extract :-
`The winter vaccination programme starts in Scotland on 4 September but in response to the new cases PHS and Scottish government are now working to bring winter vaccinations forward for those at the highest risk of becoming seriously ill from flu and Covid-19. This includes care home residents, those aged over 75 and those with weakened immune systems who were initially set to receive their vaccinations from mid-October.`
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Topic Originator: Parboiled
Date: Fri 1 Sep 14:37
Online booking nightmare, round and round in circles hence phone line clogged up. 45 minute wait with jazz to keep you awake.
Never want to hear another saxophone in my life…oops just got through wouldn’t get appt anyway NHS Fife recheduling appts. Very apologetic lassie, sorry for her.
Post Edited (Fri 01 Sep 14:44)
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Topic Originator: Big T Par
Date: Fri 1 Sep 15:39
Tested positive on Saturday and I`ve never felt worse, and that`s saying something. Couldn`t get a breath and was nearly on the way to A+E, but thankfully lying on my front really helped. Still feeling rough, with no taste or smell, which is just surreal.
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Fri 1 Sep 15:42
Sorry to hear that Big T .. hope you recover soon ..
We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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Topic Originator: Big T Par
Date: Fri 1 Sep 15:46
Quote:
Buspasspar, Fri 1 Sept 15:42
Sorry to hear that Big T .. hope you recover soon ..
Cheers bud. Definitely improving, but very slowly.
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Fri 1 Sep 16:16
Big T Can you text/message me .. I cant find your number ??
We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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Topic Originator: Bletchley_Par
Date: Thu 7 Sep 00:55
never mind.
Post Edited (Thu 07 Sep 00:56)
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