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Topic Originator: OzPar
Date: Tue 20 Jun 13:29
It`s very quiet on dotnet at this time of year, so allow me a bit of latitude to discuss something at length...
I was watching an interesting interview with Arnold Schwarzenegger earlier this week where he was asked a question about Climate Change, and he responded that one of the reasons it meets with such vehement opposition in some circles is that, possibly, it is wrongly marketed.
He said that man-made Climate Change is too difficult a term for many people to grasp. If, instead, it was sold to the general public as man-made Pollution, everyone would recognise the concept because everyone knows what pollution is.
I think he acknowledged that climate change and pollution are related but distinct concepts. But, I liked the approach he was pushing, which goes along the lines that the accumulation of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere is primarily caused by human activities, particularly the burning of fossil fuels, deforestation and certain industrial processes - all of which could technically fall under the broader descriptor of pollution. So why not simply call it that?
It is a novel approach, but I think it carries some weight. We`ve had Global Warming and Climate Change; could Pollution provide a more compelling message?
We all, in one way or another, have seen pollution occurring, whether on our doorstep or on our travels. For me, the starkest example I ever encountered happened in Borneo.
For two months in 1978, I worked in Brunei Bay in searing heat and humidity as part of a team laying up a supertanker. Brunei Bay then was the most magical place that I had ever seen. It was a vast expanse of water on the northern side of the island of Borneo, surrounded by coastal mangroves and lush tropical rainforest. The sound of birds and wildlife was everywhere. In places, the rainforest came right down to the shoreline.
We took the ship`s lifeboats for exploratory trips into muddy estuaries and up long winding rivers getting within feet of curious proboscis monkeys, with their extraordinarily long noses and reddish skin. We had been told that families of orangutans could be seen in this part of the forest, but we failed to sight them. However, the birdlife did not disappoint; it was phenomenal. Such colour, such noise, truly unforgettable.
When I flew back to Scotland, I swore I would return one day. And I did, though it took me more than 30 years, and by then, I was seeking something to take me out of a deep melancholy that had overcome me after my wife died of cancer.
I had longed to see that rainforest again, listen to the birds and watch those monkeys at play. Maybe, this time, I might get to see the orangutans rumoured to be in the forest close by to where I had been all those years before.
After a few days in Bandar Seri Begawan and Kota Kinabalu, I arranged a boat trip on a river that ran deep inland from the bay. I was quite beside myself with excitement at the prospect of again encountering Borneo`s glorious wildlife and forests.
As we set off, it soon became apparent that while narrow strips along the riverbank had remained much as before, they could neither disguise nor hide the land beyond. As far as the eye could see, that land was utterly stripped of its natural rainforest. In parts, it had been replaced by long, regulated rows of palm trees; in others, the land was empty and bare, completely devegetated.
A barge sat at a terminal on the riverbank, loading palm oil directly from a small tank farm nearby. The rumble of the cargo pumps broke the silence. Yes, that`s right, silence. There were no colourful birds this time, no cacophony of nature. These were absent.
Our boat meandered along the river past a barren landscape for almost an hour before we caught sight of the first proboscis monkeys. Disinterested in us, they sat high up in a clump of trees on the riverbank and ventured no closer.
A further 30 minutes on, we met the rainforest proper, and the scenery became more familiar to me. But by then, my heart was no longer in it. I just wanted to go back to my hotel.
It is mind-blowing to think that all this destruction could have been achieved in just 30 years—a mere blip in the earth`s lifespan.
Mind-blowing because I had witnessed with my own eyes and ears the beauty and natural wonder that had once prospered in this space, untouched for millennia. That can never return; it is lost, gone, surely forever.
Post Edited (Tue 20 Jun 13:37)
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Topic Originator: Digs
Date: Tue 20 Jun 13:56
I think you`ve answered your own question in regards to why not call it pollution as opposed to man made climate change.
It`s not just about noxious gases in the atmosphere, deforestation, run off from agriculture into the seas and rivers, and destruction of habitats and extinctions. All of these contribute to the changing climate by knock on effects but may not directly cause climate itself to change and there is only one species to blame - Man.
Stair Maistreas na Beatha
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Topic Originator: OzPar
Date: Tue 20 Jun 14:20
Yes, Digs, I acknowledge that climate change and pollution are related but distinct concepts and that there are many contributing factors. But the key point here is that many people will never understand the idea of man-made Climate Change.
It is not that they are thick, or indeed in many instances, even against the idea; it is just that they can`t visualise the concept. They finally get it when their reservoir runs low, their taps stop running, or the high tide is so high that the sea is coming into their kitchen. Things need to hit extreme before it is seen as a crisis.
The connection with man is obvious, and the most obvious connection is pollution. Wouldn`t it be better to sell it as that if it gets more people responding?
That`s Arnold`s argument, and I tend to agree with him.
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Topic Originator: Digs
Date: Thu 22 Jun 10:30
It is not that they are thick
I`d argue that you have to be to not see it, or unfeasibly selfish which in today`s world isn`t a stretch to be fair.
People will always find a reason not to support it because they figure that it doesn`t affect them, but this is a horrifically selfish way of thinking not least due to it affecting people very acutely now in poorer parts of the world, but for having no thought for the future generations of their own families.
People think of climate as something that affects other people, but as you say it`s already happening all over, just to different degrees. Our country is warmer with hotter, dryer summers, wetter milder winters mixed with more frequent heavy winters. Even the leaves on the trees bloom and fall at different times from even 30 years ago now.
Climate will always change on it`s own, but it is scientifically proven that it is changing at a rate never seen before. The problem we have is right wing self preserving governments driven by the greed of their backers and lobbyists who spew out fact free drivel, questioning actual experts left and right, and the public, as we have seen on many subjects recently are happy to lap it up if it fits with their own agenda.
As you say, when the droughts start happening more frequently, followed by the ever more devastating winter floods, maybe folk will listen? I don`t think anything will change their minds until it physically affects people because `I`m alright Jack` is the mantra for most of the world now sadly.
Stair Maistreas na Beatha
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Topic Originator: Tad Allagash
Date: Sat 24 Jun 09:06
Well the Just Stop Oil mob are certainly doing a poor job of marketing their message.
Glueing yourself to famous paintings, disrupting a snooker tournament, or stopping people getting to hospital appointments just turns off people who would otherwise be sympathetic.
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Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Sat 24 Jun 09:36
Quote:
Tad Allagash, Sat 24 Jun 09:06
Well the Just Stop Oil mob are certainly doing a poor job of marketing their message.
Glueing yourself to famous paintings, disrupting a snooker tournament, or stopping people getting to hospital appointments just turns off people who would otherwise be sympathetic.
You`d have said the same thing about the Suffragette movement throwing themselves at horses, and yet it worked.
A protest that can be easily ignored will definitely be ignored and will be rendered pointless.
You can`t make an omelette without breaking a few eggs
The enemy travels by private jet, not by dinghy.
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Topic Originator: buffy
Date: Sat 24 Jun 11:18
Clearly not Ted otherwise you wouldn’t be writing a post about them. Their PR is non stop on social media ~ how they go about their protests will always get the public’s attention, and recruitment and change of opinions is intentional.
It’s the lunacy of people asking “how did they get to xxx, by car / bus, they’re hypocrites” when the clear message is there’s too much oil production as it is, and they want the government to halt new projects.
”Buffy’s Buns are the finest in Fife”, J. Spence 2019”
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Topic Originator: Andrew283
Date: Sat 24 Jun 11:56
A protest by definition should be disruptive. Protesting by the tory rulebook will change nothing
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Sat 24 Jun 12:26
It doesn`t matter what we do. All our decisions are made for us. Can`t buy a lot of veg in supermarkets loose now so have to buy them in plastic. Probably don`t need the full bag so it goes in the bin. That`s just one small example.
We can`t even sort out bottle returns because a few powerful people have got the politicians in their pockets.
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Topic Originator: Tad Allagash
Date: Sat 24 Jun 13:54
Fathers 4 Justice also got a lot of publicity, but they also did their cause a disservice by turning themselves into a laughing stock. Similar vibe with Just Stop Oil.
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Topic Originator: OzPar
Date: Sat 24 Jun 14:27
Jake, your observations about shopping are spot-on. Food wastage is a shocking phenomenon.
The supermarkets insist on selling you two chicken breasts or two pork chops instead of one, sometimes four instead of two. Shops like Aldi offer apples or oranges at hugely discounted prices, provided you buy a plastic bag full of about ten of them. Inevitably, a couple of fruits will be rotten when you finally reach them a week later.
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Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Sun 25 Jun 11:29
Not enough people thought that Fathers 4 Justice had valid points; there were doubts about both their cause and their methods.
Just Stop Oil`s cause has far more support, especially among young people, and I suspect that they are behaving as they are because we really don`t have time to simply wait for the intransigent money chasers to die before sorting it out.
The enemy travels by private jet, not by dinghy.
Post Edited (Sun 25 Jun 11:30)
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Mon 26 Jun 10:34
Only a fool could think that humans aren`t the cause of the climate change that has happened over the last couple of decades or so. Burning 80 million barrels of oil every single day is going to have an effect. That`s not even including the billions of tonnes of coal and natural gas in quantities I can`t even fathom.
That said I can`t support the methods JSO use it when it comes down to disrupting every day people going about their lives. I doubt anyone on this forum has actually been inconvenienced by the traffic jams that they cause but if they did it up here and either myself or someone I care about missed out on an important hospital appointment, the sort of appointment that has caused weeks of stress and could ultimately be life or death, then that for me would be unforgivable.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: DBP
Date: Mon 26 Jun 11:00
And of those that were inconvenienced, how many were actually be held up for hospital appointments vs those held up due to inadequate funding for NHS services?
Post Edited (Mon 26 Jun 11:40)
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Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Mon 26 Jun 12:20
How much death and misery has been caused by climate change?
How much by the oil industry`s lust for profit?
How much by the perceived need to secure resources?
The enemy travels by private jet, not by dinghy.
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Mon 26 Jun 12:36
I`m not saying none of that is true but hopefully you can understand that if you have missed an appointment of vital importance at a hospital you might be just a tad angry and the notion of being one of those necessary broken eggs to make an omelette will be scant consolation.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Mon 26 Jun 12:46
At the end of the day it all comes down to what`s in it for big business. They`re not going to push for green energy if it means fewer people buying their product. As a society we need to start doing what`s right for us and the planet rather than what`s right for a few very wealthy people. Sadly, that won`t happen. Politicians are easily swayed.
Rather than throwing soup on paintings and being a pain in the bottom , activists should be exposing these clear conflicts of interest. Our politicians should be getting held to account and potentially jailed in some circumstances. Instead we allow them to get jobs as journalists and TV presenters!
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Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Mon 26 Jun 13:05
I`m not saying none of that is true but hopefully you can understand that if you have missed an appointment of vital importance at a hospital you might be just a tad angry and the notion of being one of those necessary broken eggs to make an omelette will be scant consolation.
And if you are a Nigerian farmer whose life has been destroyed by oil leaks, or an Iraqi mother whose children were killed in a war you would take scant consolation from the fact that the World Snooker Championship went uninterrupted.
Uncountable people`s lives are destroyed and inconvenienced by the oil industry yet you seem to have fixated on a few.
I wonder how many people missed hospital appointments as a result of protests against the Iraq war? How many died in pursuit of universal suffrage? Or the right to change jobs?
More people will die and suffer if we do nothing, and nothing is what will be done without incentives for politicians.
The enemy travels by private jet, not by dinghy.
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Topic Originator: Tad Allagash
Date: Mon 26 Jun 16:05
‘I wonder how many people missed hospital appointments as a result of protests against the Iraq war?’
I don’t know. But given that the war went ahead anyway, the answer is too many.
Call me a pessimist, but I don’t think the Chinese government will stop using fossil fuels because someone vandalised a garden at the Chelsea Flower Show. But I’m sure they got some likes on social media, so that’s the main thing.
The point is: these eco-ultra protests actually make it easier for governments to do nothing. A posh student who crowd funds his ‘activism’ is a gift for the Daily Mail.
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Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Mon 26 Jun 19:44
I find the notion that the protestors give a flying one what the Daily Mail thinks is a wee bit laughable. Myopic gammon-faced pension-chasers is the problem, in the protestors` minds, so why would they take said MGFPCs` bible`s opinion as worthwhile?
They don`t care what the Guardian thinks either by the way.
The enemy travels by private jet, not by dinghy.
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Topic Originator: Tad Allagash
Date: Mon 26 Jun 21:36
Wotsit wrote:
> I find the notion that the protestors give a flying one what
> the Daily Mail thinks is a wee bit laughable. Myopic
> gammon-faced pension-chasers is the problem, in the protestors`
> minds, so why would they take said MGFPCs` bible`s opinion as
> worthwhile?
>
> They don`t care what the Guardian thinks either by the way.
>
>
I agree, but that’s why their protests are doomed to failure.
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Mon 26 Jun 21:49
The Daily Mail just tells stupid people what they want to hear.
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Topic Originator: Bletchley_Par
Date: Tue 27 Jun 03:51
Climate change is 100% safe and effective anyone arguing otherwise is anti the speed of science.
The great scientific innovations and leap forwards always come from the dissenting 5%.
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Topic Originator: P
Date: Tue 27 Jun 07:55
Quote:
Wotsit, Mon 26 Jun 13:05
And if you are a Nigerian farmer whose life has been destroyed by oil leaks, or an Iraqi mother whose children were killed in a war you would take scant consolation from the fact that the World Snooker Championship went uninterrupted.
I also highly doubt they’re punching the air at some orange dye on a snooker table
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Topic Originator: Andrew283
Date: Tue 27 Jun 21:52
Quote:
Bletchley_Par, Tue 27 Jun 03:51
Climate change is 100% safe and effective anyone arguing otherwise is anti the speed of science.
The great scientific innovations and leap forwards always come from the dissenting 5%.
You`re trying too hard with that bait
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Topic Originator: OzPar
Date: Wed 28 Jun 15:04
Three Just Stop Oil protesters have been arrested for aggravated trespass after interrupting the first morning of the second Ashes Test at Lord’s. The protest led to an intervention by England’s Jonny Bairstow, who lifted one of the pitch invaders off the ground and carried him 60 yards to the boundary.
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