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Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Sat 7 Oct 14:52
Not a great morning in the Middle East with hundreds of deaths and now thousands of civilian injuries.
Can only see this getting worse and escalating massively over the coming days.
Post Edited (Sat 07 Oct 14:52)
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Sat 7 Oct 16:21
This is kicking off big time .. Hamas allegedly taken civilian and soldier hostages back to Gazza .. Can only end in tears
We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert
Date: Sat 7 Oct 17:09
Israel being causing problems in Gaza Strip for a while, they was bound to be repercussions sometime.
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Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Sat 7 Oct 17:21
Quote:
LochgellyAlbert, Sat 7 Oct 17:09
Israel being causing problems in Gaza Strip for a while, they was bound to be repercussions sometime.
Their settler incursions into the West Bank are a lot lot worse tbf
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Topic Originator: DBP
Date: Sat 7 Oct 18:02
Did they not do a heap of damage Gaza in 2021…
I think the conditions in Gaza are now so bad with all the restrictions etc , that they feel they have nothing to lose even when Israel retaliate to their coordinated strike
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Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Sat 7 Oct 18:27
I think they would gladly go into both WB and Gaza and clear them out (ethnically) if they wouldn’t face a backlash from the other Arab nations. Palestine is a scourge on the Jewish holy lands.
The problem is the UN are fully supportive of Israel and wont act on their war crimes like they will Palestine and Hamas…..
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Mon 9 Oct 17:59
The link worked fine for me and took me on a short journey to related topics. Here is one which is very good on how US media controls the language and parameters of debate on the situation in Palestine.
https://youtu.be/-8jN-Suxos0
sammer
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Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Tue 10 Oct 19:48
Is big Joe trying to push to intervene? Send the US into Gaza and the West Bank to clear out the terrorists? UK can tag along with their 2 new aircraft carriers…..
Can see another Afgan/Iraq situation appearing here…..
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Topic Originator: Andrew283
Date: Tue 10 Oct 23:07
Gaza has been absolutely levelled now. US funded weapons now being handed out to Israeli civs. This is going to be a genocide
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Wed 11 Oct 08:11
I`m genuinely confused at the position the government is taking, though not entirely surprised.
What Hamas are doing is evil. It cannot be justified. However, Israel`s activities are what has led to this. I don`t buy into not supporting Israel as being anti-Semitic. What they`ve been doing is wrong. What Hamas are doing is wrong. This isn`t a game where you take sides.
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Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert
Date: Wed 11 Oct 11:19
Israel/Jewish is where the money is globally!
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Wed 11 Oct 12:28
That`s surely a bit of a stereotype focussed on the likes of the Rothschild family?
I think there`s a lot of nonsense around religion. Anyone can choose to be (or not) whatever religion they please. That said, there are people who mark themselves as being Christian, Jewish, Muslim etc. In many cases this IS their religion but often it`s just assumed. We see it every week in Scotland with a bunch of supposed Catholics and Protestants singing daft songs. How many are actually active church members? How many were baptised?
In my view it`s a confusion between faith and race. If I convert to Judaism today, do I suddenly become one of the many stereotypes?
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Wed 11 Oct 13:44
Arabs and Jews lived in Palestine, relatively peacefully, side by side, for thousands of years. The present problem is a direct result of external interference by the likes of Britain and France.
It`s not a problem which is going to go away any time soon. Both groups believe this small land historically belongs to them, and neither side is prepared to concede an inch. Sadly, many innocent people are likely to die in this conflict.
Jake is correct in that there is wrongdoing on both sides. This isn`t a war of good v evil. It`s difficult to see how any lasting peace can be found if other countries line up to support one side or the other. Truly depressing.
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Wed 11 Oct 14:21
And there is LA with the first anti semetic trope of the thread.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Wed 11 Oct 14:33
The problem was caused by the UN creating Israel in the 40s then supporting it, despite them forcing out Arabs from lands that were theres.
Now there will be a UN solution - by ridding the Arabs from the lands they held once and for all under the premise of ridding them of Hammas.
What I think the UN and Israel are worried about more is Hezbullah getting involved - as they are a real threat backed by Iran (and probably other Middle Eastern countries privately) - then we could be in for WW3 with that and Ukraine conflict being the catalysts…..
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Wed 11 Oct 15:54
This is where I find it problematic that countries are nailing their colours to the mast on this. What`s been going on in Israel isn`t new. People have just turned a blind eye to a lot of bad things going on on BOTH sides. Anyone disagreeing with Israel seem to be marked as being anti-Semetic, which to me feels very uncomfortable as it suggests Israel can do no wrong.
I am in no way supportive of violence, especially the barbaric violence we have seen reported in the past week. However, it`s not as black and white as the media seems to portray it. I don`t wish to make light of the situation, but it does feel like Israel have been prodding a tiger and are now shocked at getting bitten.
The last update I saw it looked like there were approximately 1000 deaths on each side. Very much an eye for an eye. This is not going to resolve things. If nothing else, it will probably make things worse as other nations get involved.
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Wed 11 Oct 16:37
Quote:
Dave_1885, Wed 11 Oct 14:33
The problem was caused by the UN creating Israel in the 40s then supporting it, despite them forcing out Arabs from lands that were theres.
Now there will be a UN solution - by ridding the Arabs from the lands they held once and for all under the premise of ridding them of Hammas.
What I think the UN and Israel are worried about more is Hezbullah getting involved - as they are a real threat backed by Iran (and probably other Middle Eastern countries privately) - then we could be in for WW3 with that and Ukraine conflict being the catalysts…..
The "problems" started long before the 1940s, Dave. Britain and France carved up much of the Middle East between them, with the French in the northern land that is now Syria and Britain in Palestine. The guilt felt by the Allied countries after the full horrors suffered by the Jews at the hands of Nazi Germany led to the creation of the state of Israel in Palestine. Unfortunately, it wasn`t an empty place waiting to be colonised by Holocaust survivors and Jews from other lands who had suffered terrible persecution. Even without hindsight, it must have been glaringly obvious that the displaced Palestinians were not going to take it well.
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: veteraneastender
Date: Wed 11 Oct 17:12
A relative worked in the Middle East way back in 1970s/80s and told me that in reality the rest of the Arab world looked down on the Palestinians.
Although there was no formal caste system they were considered the lowest strata of society working in the menial job market.
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Topic Originator: DBP
Date: Wed 11 Oct 18:37
Well looks like we’re squarely behind Israel and their soon to start offensive!
Can’t say I support what’s about to come
Post Edited (Wed 11 Oct 18:44)
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Topic Originator: donj
Date: Wed 11 Oct 18:41
US loving wars to keep their weapons companies making money.So many innocent people die to make their profits.
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Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Wed 11 Oct 18:45
Quote:
DBP, Wed 11 Oct 18:37
Well looks like we’re squarely behind Israel and their soon to start offensive!
Can’t say I support what’s about to come
By the end of the year Id be shocked if there was still a Gaza strip…how many innocents will now perish?
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Topic Originator: Andrew283
Date: Wed 11 Oct 19:14
Quote:
Dave_1885, Wed 11 Oct 18:45
Quote:
DBP, Wed 11 Oct 18:37
Well looks like we’re squarely behind Israel and their soon to start offensive!
Can’t say I support what’s about to come
By the end of the year Id be shocked if there was still a Gaza strip…how many innocents will now perish?
Israel are soon to complete a complete genocide. The irony I feel won`t be lost on them. The west has supported that war hungry nation for far too long and whilst I don`t support Hamas, Id like to see anybody put in the Gaza strip who wouldn`t be furious at their imprisonment.
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Topic Originator: Tad Allagash
Date: Wed 11 Oct 20:08
1000 deaths on each side is not ‘an eye for an eye’.
Hamas have killed as many as they could. If they could’ve killed a million they would have. If they had the means to wipe Israel off the map then they would (from the river to the sea). Israel do have the means to wipe out the Palestinians, but have (so far) not done so.
Israel face an existential threat, so they can’t afford to ever lose a war. Palestinians can always regroup - Israel can’t. So it’s a bit unfair to call them ‘war hungry’ when the alternative is oblivion.
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Topic Originator: PARrot
Date: Wed 11 Oct 20:22
Quote:
Andrew283, Wed 11 Oct 19:14
Quote:
Dave_1885, Wed 11 Oct 18:45
Quote:
DBP, Wed 11 Oct 18:37
Well looks like we’re squarely behind Israel and their soon to start offensive!
Can’t say I support what’s about to come
By the end of the year Id be shocked if there was still a Gaza strip…how many innocents will now perish?
Israel are soon to complete a complete genocide. The irony I feel won`t be lost on them. The west has supported that war hungry nation for far too long and whilst I don`t support Hamas, Id like to see anybody put in the Gaza strip who wouldn`t be furious at their imprisonment.
War hungry nation!!????
List the wars they started and the wars started against them since 1939
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Topic Originator: Andrew283
Date: Wed 11 Oct 20:28
Quote:
PARrot, Wed 11 Oct 20:22
Quote:
Andrew283, Wed 11 Oct 19:14
Quote:
Dave_1885, Wed 11 Oct 18:45
Quote:
DBP, Wed 11 Oct 18:37
Well looks like we’re squarely behind Israel and their soon to start offensive!
Can’t say I support what’s about to come
By the end of the year Id be shocked if there was still a Gaza strip…how many innocents will now perish?
Israel are soon to complete a complete genocide. The irony I feel won`t be lost on them. The west has supported that war hungry nation for far too long and whilst I don`t support Hamas, Id like to see anybody put in the Gaza strip who wouldn`t be furious at their imprisonment.
War hungry nation!!????
List the wars they started and the wars started against them since 1939
They are literally genociding Palestinians? What the hell are you on about? They`ve stollen Palestinian homes and territory for years, slaughtered thousands and erected vast fences housing them in.
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Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Wed 11 Oct 20:35
Quote:
PARrot, Wed 11 Oct 20:22
Quote:
Andrew283, Wed 11 Oct 19:14
Quote:
Dave_1885, Wed 11 Oct 18:45
Quote:
DBP, Wed 11 Oct 18:37
Well looks like we’re squarely behind Israel and their soon to start offensive!
Can’t say I support what’s about to come
By the end of the year Id be shocked if there was still a Gaza strip…how many innocents will now perish?
Israel are soon to complete a complete genocide. The irony I feel won`t be lost on them. The west has supported that war hungry nation for far too long and whilst I don`t support Hamas, Id like to see anybody put in the Gaza strip who wouldn`t be furious at their imprisonment.
War hungry nation!!????
List the wars they started and the wars started against them since 1939
Watch Louis Theroux’s Ultra-Zionist documentary, shot over a decade ago, and claim that the Israeli regime isn’t just as bad as Hamas…..imagine if the English just decided to start uprooting Scots in Scotland and moving them out of their homes etc. because they believe they had a right to the land.
Also, add in to the fact that theres not a hope in hell that they’ve killed only Hamas terrorists in the last 5 days…they’ve already began their own cleansing before sending in their troops.
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Wed 11 Oct 20:58
imagine if the English just decided to start uprooting Scots in Scotland and moving them out of their homes etc. because they believe they had a right to the land.
I thought they had done that Dave ?
We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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Topic Originator: Andrew283
Date: Wed 11 Oct 20:58
If you`ve seen any footage from Gaza this week, it`s levelled. They`ve not got any specific targets than just destroy everything. This is a west backed Genocide.
The whole region is a total s**show owing to Western influence
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Topic Originator: Tad Allagash
Date: Wed 11 Oct 21:07
Is this a Celtic forum now?
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Topic Originator: DA-go Par Adonis
Date: Wed 11 Oct 21:22
If you`re not a big fan of watching Gaza City being turned into a car park, you must be a Celtic fan?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I love it when we go sell Kevin Nisbet,
He's gonna pay for everyone this season.
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Topic Originator: Andrew283
Date: Wed 11 Oct 21:27
Starmer now come out saying Israel are right to without power and water from Gaza? Get in the sea you deplorable pr*k
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Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend
Date: Wed 11 Oct 21:32
You have to feel so sorry for ordinary Palestinians “living” in Gaza and the West Bank
They have been oppressed for many, many years.
I heard a Palestinian being interviewed today who said that death would be better than this
It`s bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983
Post Edited (Wed 11 Oct 21:32)
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Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Wed 11 Oct 21:44
Quote:
Tad Allagash, Wed 11 Oct 21:07
Is this a Celtic forum now?
What a strange comment to make…..
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Topic Originator: Andrew283
Date: Wed 11 Oct 21:50
Quote:
Tad Allagash, Wed 11 Oct 21:07
Is this a Celtic forum now?
What a bizarre statement
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Topic Originator: Tad Allagash
Date: Wed 11 Oct 22:13
Andrew283 wrote:
> Quote:
Tad Allagash, Wed 11 Oct 21:07
>
> Is this a Celtic forum now?
>
> What a bizarre statement
It’s a question - not a statement.
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Topic Originator: Andrew283
Date: Wed 11 Oct 22:15
Quote:
Tad Allagash, Wed 11 Oct 22:13
Andrew283 wrote:
> Quote:
Tad Allagash, Wed 11 Oct 21:07
>
> Is this a Celtic forum now?
>
> What a bizarre statement
It’s a question - not a statement.
It was still utter rubbish
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Wed 11 Oct 22:54
Quote:
Tad Allagash, Wed 11 Oct 20:08
1000 deaths on each side is not ‘an eye for an eye’.
Hamas have killed as many as they could. If they could’ve killed a million they would have. If they had the means to wipe Israel off the map then they would (from the river to the sea). Israel do have the means to wipe out the Palestinians, but have (so far) not done so.
Israel face an existential threat, so they can’t afford to ever lose a war. Palestinians can always regroup - Israel can’t. So it’s a bit unfair to call them ‘war hungry’ when the alternative is oblivion.
That literally is the definition of an eye for an eye 🤦♂️
I`m sure Hamas would kill more, but I`m sure Israel would too. They both lack the political support to do so though.
I assume you meant "Hamas" rather than Palestinians in that last paragraph?
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Topic Originator: Tad Allagash
Date: Wed 11 Oct 23:21
‘I`m sure Hamas would kill more, but I`m sure Israel would too. They both lack the political support to do so though.’
But the point is Israel COULD kill more and they haven’t. We don’t have to speculate on what they would do.
Israel have nuclear weapons.
Now what do you think would happen if Hamas had nuclear weapons?
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Topic Originator: Andrew283
Date: Wed 11 Oct 23:30
Quote:
Tad Allagash, Wed 11 Oct 23:21
‘I`m sure Hamas would kill more, but I`m sure Israel would too. They both lack the political support to do so though.’
But the point is Israel COULD kill more and they haven’t. We don’t have to speculate on what they would do.
Israel have nuclear weapons.
Now what do you think would happen if Hamas had nuclear weapons?
Israel have been slaughtering Palestinians for decades? The hell are you on about? It`s like right wingers have complete amnesia regarding Israel`s past actions
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Topic Originator: Tad Allagash
Date: Wed 11 Oct 23:59
For decades? And Palestinians still exist?
If Hamas had Israel’s weapons, then Israel would be gone in a day - not decades.
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Thu 12 Oct 00:04
Israel can`t kill more. If they did, how would they justify it? It wouldn`t be supported.
None of this should be supported on either side. The acceptance that Israel is right to respond in this way is incredible.
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Topic Originator: PARrot
Date: Thu 12 Oct 00:04
Quote:
Andrew283, Wed 11 Oct 23:30
Quote:
Tad Allagash, Wed 11 Oct 23:21
‘I`m sure Hamas would kill more, but I`m sure Israel would too. They both lack the political support to do so though.’
But the point is Israel COULD kill more and they haven’t. We don’t have to speculate on what they would do.
Israel have nuclear weapons.
Now what do you think would happen if Hamas had nuclear weapons?
Israel have been slaughtering Palestinians for decades? The hell are you on about? It`s like right wingers have complete amnesia regarding Israel`s past actions
I`m not now never have been and never will be a right winger and I do not have any measure of amnesia regarding this conflict.
Please, fill me in with your understanding of which side did what since 1945
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Topic Originator: Andrew283
Date: Thu 12 Oct 00:54
Quote:
PARrot, Thu 12 Oct 00:04
Quote:
Andrew283, Wed 11 Oct 23:30
Quote:
Tad Allagash, Wed 11 Oct 23:21
‘I`m sure Hamas would kill more, but I`m sure Israel would too. They both lack the political support to do so though.’
But the point is Israel COULD kill more and they haven’t. We don’t have to speculate on what they would do.
Israel have nuclear weapons.
Now what do you think would happen if Hamas had nuclear weapons?
Israel have been slaughtering Palestinians for decades? The hell are you on about? It`s like right wingers have complete amnesia regarding Israel`s past actions
I`m not now never have been and never will be a right winger and I do not have any measure of amnesia regarding this conflict.
Please, fill me in with your understanding of which side did what since 1945
I mean, there are time lapses of Israel taking Palestinian land within a click on Google if you want to look?
I should also raise this point aswell, the average age of Palestine currently is, wait for it, 18... 43% of the populace is 14 or under. It`s currently being levelled by a far far superior military nation, backed by the west. Hamas are bastards but Israel are committing equal war crimes right now, unpunished.
Post Edited (Thu 12 Oct 01:01)
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Topic Originator: Kintos
Date: Thu 12 Oct 08:03
As is always the case with this conflict, there are those who show support for either side (and that`s to be expected). It`s pretty concerning though that there is an apparent inability for those Pro-Israeli posters to condemn the Israeli response, and indeed the Israeli conduct over the years. At least the likes of Dave and Andrew, who are clearly quite emotive on the subject, can still at least recognise Hamas` actions as being abhorrent and condemn it.
And because the inevitable analogy has already been made... Imagine Britain decided to bomb the living hell out of West Belfast after Omagh... Oh wait, you couldn`t imagine that could you because it would be beyond comprehension
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Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Thu 12 Oct 08:16
Wee bit context
The enemy travels by private jet, not by dinghy.
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Thu 12 Oct 08:20
Kintos I don`t think that analogy works as that would be Britain bombing a British city.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Thu 12 Oct 11:05
Quote:
The One Who Knocks, Thu 12 Oct 08:20
Kintos I don`t think that analogy works as that would be Britain bombing a British city.
Change Belfast to Dublin and you have the correct analogy - it didnt happen, but the UK government are fully supportive of other nations doing it it seems.
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Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Thu 12 Oct 11:19
The British shelled Dublin during the Easter Uprising with heavy artillery and a gunboat.
Although being less atrocious than the British Empire is a high bar.
Post Edited (Thu 12 Oct 11:19)
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Topic Originator: veteraneastender
Date: Thu 12 Oct 14:35
"The British shelled Dublin during the Easter Uprising with heavy artillery and a gunboat."
Wasn`t that against rebel positions ?
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Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Thu 12 Oct 14:42
Quote:
veteraneastender, Thu 12 Oct 14:35
"The British shelled Dublin during the Easter Uprising with heavy artillery and a gunboat."
Wasn`t that against rebel positions ?
I`m not an expert on artillery accuracy in the 1920s but I`m fairly sure it wasn`t up to much?
The enemy travels by private jet, not by dinghy.
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Topic Originator: Kintos
Date: Thu 12 Oct 15:09
Quote:
The One Who Knocks, Thu 12 Oct 08:20
Kintos I don`t think that analogy works as that would be Britain bombing a British city.
Yeah TOWK I get the geographic stumbling block in that analogy, more just to highlight the `us and them` approach and if we`re being honest, if Israel had it`s way, Gaza would exist as part of Israel.
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Topic Originator: DBP
Date: Thu 12 Oct 18:08
Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas in the world, it’s about 1/4 the size of fife, populated mostly by children and teenagers and over least few days Israel has dropped over six thousand bombs there
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Thu 12 Oct 18:19
This breaking from Aunty :-
The UK will deploy patrol and surveillance aircraft and two Royal Navy ships to the eastern Mediterranean “to support Israel", No 10 says.
Maritime patrol and surveillance aircraft will begin flying in the region tomorrow "to track threats to regional stability".
A Royal Navy task group will be moved to the area next week as a contingency measure to support humanitarian efforts.
There will be no Humans left in Gazza by then
We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Thu 12 Oct 18:28
Quote:
Buspasspar, Thu 12 Oct 18:19
This breaking from Aunty :-
The UK will deploy patrol and surveillance aircraft and two Royal Navy ships to the eastern Mediterranean “to support Israel", No 10 says.
Maritime patrol and surveillance aircraft will begin flying in the region tomorrow "to track threats to regional stability".
A Royal Navy task group will be moved to the area next week as a contingency measure to support humanitarian efforts.
There will be no Humans left in Gazza by then
Thats our whole navy these days to be fair 🙄
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Thu 12 Oct 19:09
I see the BBC has been strongly criticised by the government for failing to describe Hamas militants as terrorists. Several Western countries have had no such reservations and are reporting the conflict from a seemingly strongly pro-Israeli position.
I can`t see how one side is any better than the other - both are responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocent people. Hamas is guilty of setting off this latest conflict, but it is surely no surprise given the resentment felt by those living Gaza, which is virtually a large open prison. I`m not suggesting for a minute that Israel doesn`t have the right to defend itself from these horrendous attacks, but something needs to be done to tackle the root cause of this long-standing feud. Bombing one another is only going to make the situation worse and increases the risk of escalation, with the West lining up behind Israel and the Arab nations behind the Palestinians.
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Thu 12 Oct 19:34
Good Post GG
I cannot for the life of me understand why Hamas would do what they did when they knew full well the retribution that would befall them ..
We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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Topic Originator: veteraneastender
Date: Thu 12 Oct 20:50
"I`m not an expert on artillery accuracy in the 1920s but I`m fairly sure it wasn`t up to much?"
More than accurate enough to target specific rebel strongholds - it was the considered the decisive factor which persuaded the leaders of the insurrection to seek terms of surrender.
Comparisons with the Israel/Gaza tragedy are entirely dubious.
Irish regiments of the British Army were fighting in France and the vast majority of the Irish population were not supportive of the uprising - captured rebels were subject to angry scenes and spat upon etc.in Dublin
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Topic Originator: Tad Allagash
Date: Thu 12 Oct 23:18
The British had 1920’s artillery in 1916?
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Topic Originator: Andrew283
Date: Fri 13 Oct 02:06
Quote:
Buspasspar, Thu 12 Oct 19:34
Good Post GG
I cannot for the life of me understand why Hamas would do what they did when they knew full well the retribution that would befall them ..
Desperation? The lack of any high end media coverage here for the atrocities the IDF have committed is appalling. Hamas are vile, but anyone worth their skin would fight for their lives if they suffered what Israel has done to Palestine over the years. It`s comical that child murder by the IDF is swept under the carpet though... Who cares about Muslims I suppose 🤗
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Topic Originator: Andrew283
Date: Fri 13 Oct 02:08
Quote:
Tad Allagash, Thu 12 Oct 23:18
The British had 1920’s artillery in 1916?
Aye, that`s the bit you have issue with? You absolute weirdo. 🤔🙄
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Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Fri 13 Oct 05:28
Israel now told 1.1 million people in northern Gaza that they have 24 hours to move to the south of the area - this includes UN personal. The UN have said that this is impossible and will cause even more tragedy than current standards.
Are Israel going to end up pushing too far and being found out by the UN to being the real terrorists here?
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Topic Originator: PARrot
Date: Fri 13 Oct 06:00
I`m just taking a look at what is happening round the world and trying to see the bigger picture.
As has been asked, why would Hamas do this now? They must have been promised support.
Im thinking Putin is behind this. His recent meetings with Iran, N. Korea and China are significant. This is all about stretching the west and the USA in particular.
Iran coordinate the middle east attacks, N Korea are going to attack S. Korea and China are going to take the opportunity to take Taiwan.
WW3 is about to happen I fear.
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Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Fri 13 Oct 07:37
Quote:
PARrot, Fri 13 Oct 06:00
I`m just taking a look at what is happening round the world and trying to see the bigger picture.
As has been asked, why would Hamas do this now? They must have been promised support.
Im thinking Putin is behind this. His recent meetings with Iran, N. Korea and China are significant. This is all about stretching the west and the USA in particular.
Iran coordinate the middle east attacks, N Korea are going to attack S. Korea and China are going to take the opportunity to take Taiwan.
WW3 is about to happen I fear.
Thing is Parrot, this is now going to be escalated majorly by Israel - backed by the US and UK…Hamas have been causing terror attacks for years, backed by Iran, its not really new and was done on a day of Israel celebration I believe.
Also, if the Russian invasion of the Ukraine is anything to go by, the “West” don’t have much to fear from that.
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Topic Originator: Andrew283
Date: Fri 13 Oct 11:31
Quote:
Dave_1885, Fri 13 Oct 05:28
Israel now told 1.1 million people in northern Gaza that they have 24 hours to move to the south of the area - this includes UN personal. The UN have said that this is impossible and will cause even more tragedy than current standards.
Are Israel going to end up pushing too far and being found out by the UN to being the real terrorists here?
Israel have ALWAYS been the terrorists in this conflict, but that`s a controversial thing to say, apparently 🙄🙄
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Topic Originator: Andrew283
Date: Fri 13 Oct 11:33
I give it 1 month before an Israeli bomb hits Iran, KSA or Syria. These stupid twats would destroy the planet if they thought their little sky god (small g) wanted them to
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Topic Originator: veteraneastender
Date: Fri 13 Oct 12:00
Not sure why some folks are getting restless about British Army artillery used in the Easter Rising in Dublin.
Nothing to do with the Israel/Hamas tragedy unfolding there.
It was Wotsit who inadvertently IMO referred to 1920 when I assume he meant 1916.
For clarity - 4 x 18 pounder field guns (the only artillery pieces in Ireland then) were deployed to shell the principal rebel strongpoints, such as the General Post Office in the centre of the city.
This type of gun was still in service (upgraded models) through to 1942, so references to the 1920s are not so far removed.
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Topic Originator: parsfan
Date: Fri 13 Oct 12:44
Quote:
Andrew283, Fri 13 Oct 11:33
I give it 1 month before an Israeli bomb hits Iran, KSA or Syria. These stupid twats would destroy the planet if they thought their little sky god (small g) wanted them to
Didn`t they bomb Damascus and Aleppo airports yesterday?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The universe is ruled by chance and indifference
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Topic Originator: parsfan
Date: Fri 13 Oct 12:50
Quote:
Tad Allagash, Wed 11 Oct 23:59
For decades? And Palestinians still exist?
And Jews still exist. With logic like yours I wonder if you believe the holocaust really happened.
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The universe is ruled by chance and indifference
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Topic Originator: veteraneastender
Date: Fri 13 Oct 14:55
Quote:
parsfan, Fri 13 Oct 12:44
Quote:
Andrew283, Fri 13 Oct 11:33
I give it 1 month before an Israeli bomb hits Iran, KSA or Syria. These stupid twats would destroy the planet if they thought their little sky god (small g) wanted them to
Didn`t they bomb Damascus and Aleppo airports yesterday?
Correct.
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Topic Originator: PARrot
Date: Fri 13 Oct 15:54
Quote:
Andrew283, Fri 13 Oct 11:31
Quote:
Dave_1885, Fri 13 Oct 05:28
Israel now told 1.1 million people in northern Gaza that they have 24 hours to move to the south of the area - this includes UN personal. The UN have said that this is impossible and will cause even more tragedy than current standards.
Are Israel going to end up pushing too far and being found out by the UN to being the real terrorists here?
Israel have ALWAYS been the terrorists in this conflict, but that`s a controversial thing to say, apparently 🙄🙄
Its not controversial its just wrong.
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Fri 13 Oct 17:04
I agree with the BBC in that as soon as you label one side or the other as terrorists, you`re effectively taking sides and are therefore not impartial.
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: Tad Allagash
Date: Fri 13 Oct 17:23
‘And Jews still exist. With logic like yours I wonder if you believe the holocaust really happened.’
The point is : If Hamas had their way, then Jews wouldn’t exist. Thank God they don’t have the means to achieve this.
Yes, the holocaust most definitely happened. 6 million Jews were murdered (plus gypsies, disabled people, gays, and more). To put that into perspective, there are only about 7 million Jews in Israel today.
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Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Fri 13 Oct 17:27
I fear there is this agenda, that because of the holocaust, Israel are immune from criticism in case of causing offence.
To think that telling 1.1m people they have 24 hours to leave before a “clear out of Hamas” aka genocide of anyone remaining takes place ISNT a form of terrorism is staggering.
Everyone was calling the Taliban every name under the sun when they took back Afgan last year…..but its ok for Israel to clear out land that isn’t even theres 🤦🏻♂️
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Topic Originator: Tad Allagash
Date: Fri 13 Oct 17:56
‘I agree with the BBC in that as soon as you label one side or the other as terrorists, you`re effectively taking sides and are therefore not impartial.’
Well the BBC changed the spelling of ‘Kiev’ to ‘Kyiv’ overnight, so they’re not above taking sides - seems more of a blind spot in this case.
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Topic Originator: PARrot
Date: Fri 13 Oct 18:14
Quote:
Andrew283, Fri 13 Oct 11:33
I give it 1 month before an Israeli bomb hits Iran, KSA or Syria. These stupid twats would destroy the planet if they thought their little sky god (small g) wanted them to
Are you not aware that Iran are arming and supporting Hamas. Troops are on their way now. Lebanon and Syria are active in the conflict posing a huge threat, and are you also not aware that the Arabs believe in the very same "little sky god" that the Jews believe in.
In fact the people of Palestine believe in him more than your average modern Israeli nowadays.
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Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Fri 13 Oct 18:39
Quote:
PARrot, Fri 13 Oct 18:14
Quote:
Andrew283, Fri 13 Oct 11:33
I give it 1 month before an Israeli bomb hits Iran, KSA or Syria. These stupid twats would destroy the planet if they thought their little sky god (small g) wanted them to
Are you not aware that Iran are arming and supporting Hamas. Troops are on their way now. Lebanon and Syria are active in the conflict posing a huge threat, and are you also not aware that the Arabs believe in the very same "little sky god" that the Jews believe in.
In fact the people of Palestine believe in him more than your average modern Israeli nowadays.
You are aware that the US are arming Israel eh?
One quick question Parot - do you believe its acceptable for Israel to now demand mass migration and cut off essentials or risk death as they charge in looking for Hamas?
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Fri 13 Oct 18:43
Quote:
Tad Allagash, Fri 13 Oct 17:56
‘I agree with the BBC in that as soon as you label one side or the other as terrorists, you`re effectively taking sides and are therefore not impartial.’
Well the BBC changed the spelling of ‘Kiev’ to ‘Kyiv’ overnight, so they’re not above taking sides - seems more of a blind spot in this case.
You`ve lost me there, TA. Maybe I`m a bit obtuse, but how does changing the spelling of Ukraine`s capital equate to taking sides? Having said that, the BBC, along with the rest of the Western World, didn`t try to hide its support for Ukraine even before the massed Russian troops on its Eastern border invaded.
There are no winners in any war, just so much suffering for thousands of innocent people, who lose loved ones and have their lives and homes destroyed by senseless, brutal violence. How is it possible that in 2023, intelligent human beings cannot find a peaceful way to resolve their disputes?
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: d3monstrate
Date: Fri 13 Oct 19:01
Peaceful resolutions doesn`t make people money...
Post Edited (Fri 13 Oct 19:02)
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Fri 13 Oct 19:50
How many Palestinians have been killed by Israeli forces in the last decade? Compare that figure with the number of Israelis killed by Hamas. It must be around 20x more Palestinians.
Neither side is one that deserves supporting. They both have blood on their hands.
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Topic Originator: Tad Allagash
Date: Fri 13 Oct 21:57
KyivNotKiev was a campaign to get English-language news outlets to use the Ukrainian derived spelling rather than the Russian derived spelling.
To be fair to the BBC, it seems they changed the spelling before the war, but I only noticed when it was suddenly in the news frequently.
The BBC style guide leads to some awkward stilted reporting, and the use of euphemism when reporting atrocities isn’t being impartial.
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Topic Originator: red-star-par
Date: Fri 13 Oct 21:57
How anyone can defend what Israel are about to do is beyond me. Especially people like PARrot who pretends to be a Christian.
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Fri 13 Oct 22:27
Israel cutting off the internet to Gaza to prevent people sharing what`s going on. This isn`t a defence, this is extermination.
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Topic Originator: red-star-par
Date: Fri 13 Oct 22:52
Quote:
jake89, Fri 13 Oct 22:27
Israel cutting off the internet to Gaza to prevent people sharing what`s going on. This isn`t a defence, this is extermination.
It`s going to be a holocaust. We are about to witness a weekend of genocide
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Sat 14 Oct 00:18
`Israel have ALWAYS been the terrorists in this conflict, but that`s a controversial thing to say, apparently.`
It`s not controversial to anyone familiar with the history of Israel, which PARrot is apparently not. Some say Israel was founded on terrorism but that I think that is an overstatement: there were, for what it`s worth, a Balfour Declaration and UN edicts.
However the activities of Israeli paramilitary groups was acknowledged and has been celebrated by Israelis ever since as a major contribution in forming the State of Israel. At least two Prime Ministers of Israel were members of terrorist organisations, rather in the Adams/McGuiness fashion. They did not only kill British officials and soldiers in Palestine but also had plans, unsuccessfully carried out, to bomb government agencies in London around 1946.Winston Churchill and Ernest Bevin were reportedly on their hit list. I think there was a bomb attack in Manchester around this time but as you can imagine some information available in the past is not available now in these heightened times. There was certainly a UK letter bomb campaign.
The Israeli contribution to what we now call terrorism, or urban guerrilla warfare, is as significant as Henry Ford to the mass produced automobile. Car bombings, kidnappings, hostages, grenade attacks on buses, roadside bombs, enemies strapped to vehicles as human shields: they led the way. Everyone thereafter has worked from their template, including it seems Hamas. Although Hamas only operate within historic Palestine borders.
The conflict in Palestine is no more religious than the conflict I recall in Northern Ireland for much of my life. The first Prime Minister of Israel was an atheist as were others like Golda Meir who followed him. Yasser Arafat was more Socialist I suspect than a Muslim. Agree or disagree these were real politicians with a depth of character now almost completely absent. The rightward shift in US, UK and Israeli politics since the early 1980s has reduced us to this medieval nonsense, echoed to some extent by Hamas themselves.
sammer
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Sat 14 Oct 04:19
Genocide is an emotive word , so we must be careful how we use it. The statements about Palestinians being `animals` would certainly suggest a genocidal motivation. Driving Palestinians out of Gaza would certainly respond to the right wing fascist element of the Israeli government, who could claim the Palestinians left of their own accord. So no genocide required, same as if the Jews had gone off to Madascagar, as was mooted at one time.
At heart, the Israeli have always loved Palestine They just don`t want the Palestinians in the way. God decided that some time ago, and who, in the atheist west, dare argue with him?. Not Keir Starmer for sure.
The way they`re going , Israel are in big danger of being banned from the Eurovision Song Contest. That`ll show them.
sammer
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Topic Originator: PARrot
Date: Sat 14 Oct 05:15
Quote:
Dave_1885, Fri 13 Oct 18:39
Quote:
PARrot, Fri 13 Oct 18:14
Quote:
Andrew283, Fri 13 Oct 11:33
I give it 1 month before an Israeli bomb hits Iran, KSA or Syria. These stupid twats would destroy the planet if they thought their little sky god (small g) wanted them to
Are you not aware that Iran are arming and supporting Hamas. Troops are on their way now. Lebanon and Syria are active in the conflict posing a huge threat, and are you also not aware that the Arabs believe in the very same "little sky god" that the Jews believe in.
In fact the people of Palestine believe in him more than your average modern Israeli nowadays.
You are aware that the US are arming Israel eh?
One quick question Parot - do you believe its acceptable for Israel to now demand mass migration and cut off essentials or risk death as they charge in looking for Hamas?
Quite simply yes I am aware and no it isnt acceptable.
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Topic Originator: PARrot
Date: Sat 14 Oct 05:18
Quote:
red-star-par, Fri 13 Oct 21:57
How anyone can defend what Israel are about to do is beyond me. Especially people like PARrot who pretends to be a Christian.
If the circumstances were not so tragic I would p*** myself at that ridiculous comment.
I dont like what Israel is doing at all, but I dont see what choice they have. I fear for the innocents on both sides.
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Topic Originator: PARrot
Date: Sat 14 Oct 05:28
Quote:
sammer, Sat 14 Oct 00:18
`Israel have ALWAYS been the terrorists in this conflict, but that`s a controversial thing to say, apparently.`
It`s not controversial to anyone familiar with the history of Israel, which PARrot is apparently not. Some say Israel was founded on terrorism but that I think that is an overstatement: there were, for what it`s worth, a Balfour Declaration and UN edicts.
However the activities of Israeli paramilitary groups was acknowledged and has been celebrated by Israelis ever since as a major contribution in forming the State of Israel. At least two Prime Ministers of Israel were members of terrorist organisations, rather in the Adams/McGuiness fashion. They did not only kill British officials and soldiers in Palestine but also had plans, unsuccessfully carried out, to bomb government agencies in London around 1946.Winston Churchill and Ernest Bevin were reportedly on their hit list. I think there was a bomb attack in Manchester around this time but as you can imagine some information available in the past is not available now in these heightened times. There was certainly a UK letter bomb campaign.
The Israeli contribution to what we now call terrorism, or urban guerrilla warfare, is as significant as Henry Ford to the mass produced automobile. Car bombings, kidnappings, hostages, grenade attacks on buses, roadside bombs, enemies strapped to vehicles as human shields: they led the way. Everyone thereafter has worked from their template, including it seems Hamas. Although Hamas only operate within historic Palestine borders.
The conflict in Palestine is no more religious than the conflict I recall in Northern Ireland for much of my life. The first Prime Minister of Israel was an atheist as were others like Golda Meir who followed him. Yasser Arafat was more Socialist I suspect than a Muslim. Agree or disagree these were real politicians with a depth of character now almost completely absent. The rightward shift in US, UK and Israeli politics since the early 1980s has reduced us to this medieval nonsense, echoed to some extent by Hamas themselves.
Some valid points but unfortunately that doesn`t always lead to the right conclusion.
I have always argued with folk who say religion causes all wars.
Religion is responsible for very few wars.
This one however is 100% religious and it is all about Jerusalem. The Arab nations dont give a flying shot about Palestine or the Palestinians, they are using them in a futile attempt to take control of Jerusalem.
More on this later I`m too busy just now.
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Sat 14 Oct 08:15
Jan Egeland, the Norwegian former diplomat who was involved with the Oslo Accord and facilitated talks between the Palestinians and Israel, tells BBC Radio 4`s Today programme that Israel`s evacuation order for northern Gaza is a forced transfer of people, considered a war crime under the Geneva Convention.
Egeland, who is secretary general of the Norwegian Refugee Council. adds there is now no practical way of approaching the humanitarian "catastrophe" underway in Gaza.
There are "many children under the rubble that no-one can dig out... tens of thousands destroyed or unliveable housing units... thousands of people fleeing for their lives," he says.
Egeland says the scale of the crisis in Gaza has not yet been grasped fully by the West.
"The UK, US and EU have rightfully said we`re with Israel in fighting terror," Egeland adds. " I hope they haven`t given a green light to smash a million children."
We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Sat 14 Oct 12:12
And there we go….confirmed that Israel have killed children yesterday whilst striking a convoy heading south after their instruction to do so……
Come on Rishi, lets hear you defend this one as Israel right to defend themselves…
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Topic Originator: OzPar
Date: Sat 14 Oct 13:16
There are some interesting observations there from Sammer. Few would dispute that the terrorists of recent decades were heavily influenced by the Israeli paramilitary groups of the 1940s in the years up to the ending of the British Mandate.
Whether it is the Provisional IRA, Al Qaeda, or Hamas, their leaders would surely acknowledge a contribution to their efforts from Menachem Begin`s book, `The Revolt`, which described the rationale and mechanics of the Irgun paramilitary group he led in Israel. Even Nelson Mandela tipped his hat to that work in reviewing the early activities of the ANC.
I can`t entirely agree with Sammer`s claim that it is an overstatement to say Israel was founded on terrorism because all the evidence would suggest that it was.
My father was a paratrooper with the 6th Airborne Division during WW2. He came through D-Day, 6 June 1944, taking part in the early morning attacks on the enemy. He survived winter in the Ardennes supporting the Americans, and he anxiously looked down on his younger brother, who was with the Cameron Highlanders as they gathered on the edge of the River Rhine, while he prepared to jump out of a DC3 well behind enemy lines.
On their advance through Germany to Wismar on the Baltic, they came across the Bergen-Belsen Concentration Camp. They didn`t stay long, as they were tasked to advance at speed, but they waited until support arrived and saw enough to grasp the horror of what the Nazis had delivered on the Jews. They certainly played a part in liberating the prisoners in that horrific concentration camp. But they weren`t to find much appreciation from the Jews.
Shortly after the war ended, the paratroopers were sent to Palestine to police the British Mandate, and there they found themselves facing Irgun, Hagunnah and the Stern Gang. There were several atrocities, including the hanging of two soldiers whose bodies were booby-trapped, ensuring those who went to cut them down were blown to smithereens.
Not long after the paras arrived, Irgun blew up the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, killing 90+ people, including 28 British personnel. The leader of the Irgun that day was Menachem Begin. He created the right-wing Likud party and became Israel`s 6th prime minister. Today, Likud is the party led by none other than Benjamin Netanyahu.
Bibi Netanyahu is a pygmy. He is a classic case of inadequate wee brother syndrome. His older brother, Yoni, is a true hero of Israel. He would likely be Israel`s PM today, but unfortunately, he was killed, leading the successful operation to free more than a hundred Jewish hostages at Entebbe Airport in Uganda in 1976.
Sadly, Palestinians have been paying for Bibi`s sense of inadequacy ever since.
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Topic Originator: OzPar
Date: Sat 14 Oct 13:47
So what can be done to stop the madness and prevent genocide? Could the UN practically intervene? Could a negotiated settlement be arranged before we reach a mutually destructive endgame?
Does the UN have the power or even the will to demand a ceasefire?
Perhaps more importantly, could the much-vaunted two-state solution be abandoned in favour of a one-state solution where all citizens have equal human rights, where all men and women are equal under the law, regardless of religion or ethnicity?
In other words, could a situation arise where walls and fences around Gaza and the West Bank are pulled down, so those people currently enclosed become part of the nation of Israel?
Could the Israelis find the will to tear down the new settlements in the Golan Heights and return the land to Syria if the surrounding Arab nations agreed to allow a unified Israel comprising Jews, Arabs and Palestinians to live under a single democratic authority?
Israel has the demographics significantly in its favour. It has a population of 9.5 million, of which a tad over 2 million are Arab/Palestinian. Surely there is room to negotiate an equal place for everyone?
South Africa managed to do the seemingly impossible 30 years ago. A central part of that was the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.
If the parties here could agree to a similar process, then perhaps Israel could find a new way to accommodate everyone without unnecessary discrimination. In other words, end apartheid.
Is this too much to ask if lasting peace can be achieved in the Middle East?
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Sat 14 Oct 14:38
Quote:
OzPar, Sat 14 Oct 13:47
So what can be done to stop the madness and prevent genocide? Could the UN practically intervene? Could a negotiated settlement be arranged before we reach a mutually destructive endgame?
Does the UN have the power or even the will to demand a ceasefire?
Perhaps more importantly, could the much-vaunted two-state solution be abandoned in favour of a one-state solution where all citizens have equal human rights, where all men and women are equal under the law, regardless of religion or ethnicity?
In other words, could a situation arise where walls and fences around Gaza and the West Bank are pulled down, so those people currently enclosed become part of the nation of Israel?
Could the Israelis find the will to tear down the new settlements in the Golan Heights and return the land to Syria if the surrounding Arab nations agreed to allow a unified Israel comprising Jews, Arabs and Palestinians to live under a single democratic authority?
Israel has the demographics significantly in its favour. It has a population of 9.5 million, of which a tad over 2 million are Arab/Palestinian. Surely there is room to negotiate an equal place for everyone?
South Africa managed to do the seemingly impossible 30 years ago. A central part of that was the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.
If the parties here could agree to a similar process, then perhaps Israel could find a new way to accommodate everyone without unnecessary discrimination. In other words, end apartheid.
Is this too much to ask if lasting peace can be achieved in the Middle East?
Excellent post, Oz. If only Hamas and Netanyahu had your vision and foresight.
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Sat 14 Oct 14:39
Very good post OzPar
We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Sat 14 Oct 15:26
A former Hamas leader has said that what the militants did last Saturday was "an attempt to end the Israeli occupation" and that he is "proud" of them.
Speaking to Turkey`s Haberturk TV, Hamas`s head of foreign affairs Khalid Meshal added the conflict did not start last week, but in 1948.
"Israel has been saying that their army was the strongest and undefeatable. When we saw that they were defeated in a few hours, we were surprised, too," he said.
When asked about Hamas murdering civilians, children and the elderly, he said: "We kept telling them not to do that. But in war times, these incidents can happen. Isn`t it what Israel always says, that they didn`t do it [kill civilians] on purpose?"
Asked whether Hamas has done the same as it accuses Israel of doing, Meshal said there was a "big difference":
"We are the owners of this land. When the enemy comes from outside, either soldiers or civilians, they are all enemies. Whoever comes to my land [to occupy] is enemy, and guilty."
We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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Topic Originator: donj
Date: Sat 14 Oct 17:00
So Netanyahu lied about safe routes to evacuate as they commit air strikes on the fleeing people.Obviously this was self defence not terrorism.
A convoy of vehicles carrying fleeing civilians from Gaza to the southern half of the strip that was traveling on a route marked supposedly as a “safe route” has been struck by a deadly airstrike, according to analysis.
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Topic Originator: Andrew283
Date: Sat 14 Oct 17:12
Quote:
donj, Sat 14 Oct 17:00
So Netanyahu lied about safe routes to evacuate as they commit air strikes on the fleeing people.Obviously this was self defence not terrorism.
A convoy of vehicles carrying fleeing civilians from Gaza to the southern half of the strip that was traveling on a route marked supposedly as a “safe route” has been struck by a deadly airstrike, according to analysis.
Sickening
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Sat 14 Oct 23:28
I can only echo GG Riva`s point that OZpar`s post on Palestine was probably as good as anything I have ever read on this site, either on football or politics.
If the people on here, or on the streets across the world today , are capable of trying in our clumsy way to find some form of peace in this world, why the hell are our politicians not responding to this?
sammer
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Topic Originator: Andrew283
Date: Sun 15 Oct 08:35
Quote:
sammer, Sat 14 Oct 23:28
I can only echo GG Riva`s point that OZpar`s post on Palestine was probably as good as anything I have ever read on this site, either on football or politics.
If the people on here, or on the streets across the world today , are capable of trying in our clumsy way to find some form of peace in this world, why the hell are our politicians not responding to this?
Because Israel buys western weapons so our governments pass a blind eye to their war crimes.
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Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy
Date: Sun 15 Oct 12:33
Two good pals of mine in the US can give different perspectives. One has worked as an exec in various different companies in NYC and could tell you some very interesting stories about Hasidic Jews buying up building, evicting the non-Hasidic tenents and moving their extended families. He was also running health centres in the poorer burghs and these were hasidic-owned and the money these folk were making off Obama-care was insane. All-the-while they treat their wives like **** and buy influence with politicians on both sides öf the Senate. They do the same in Israel, basically ensuring that their kids don`t have to serve in the IDF.
The second is half-Russian Jew and despises Likud and is quite convinced that Bibi is trying to create an Ashkenazi ethno-state. Case and point would be the treatment of the local Christians.
Personally I`ve always rejected arguments that the Jews are a race as there four Jewish races: Ashkenazi, Sephardic, Mizradi and then the Beta Israelis. Quite a few Zionists you meet are blissfully unaware of this and how the Ashkenazis like Likud treat the other groups.
One thing I`ve always found interesting is that everyone remembers the 6Mn Jews that died in the Holocaust, but I do wonder how many people are also aware of the near 11Mn Slavs who also perished?
My Grandfather flew Spitfires from 1940-47 and his post-war service included training Iraqi, Iranian, Saudi, Turkish and Israeli pilots. Following this he was offered command of his own flight school in India but opted for discharge because India was too hot and he didn`t like spicy food (true story). He always said the Arabs and Turks were very fundamentalist in their religious beliefs and let it take over their lives, while the Israelis in his eyes were the same and said what they did to the Palestinians was as bad as what they Germans did to them. This was from a man who was quite decidedly Christian.
Hamas are most definitely a terrorist organisation and funded from across the Middle East, including the big players like Iran, Saudi and Egypt. If you go into the politics of the Palestinian Authority, you`ll find that there are so many small parties and no real coordination among the more reasonably-minded Palestinians and they havent had an election for the PA in about 25 years if memory serves correctly. That said, I very much doubt Hamas would exist in their current form if it wasnt for the way theyve been starved of basic resources like land, food and water. When this is unquestionably going on, what does anyone expect?
I`ve met many a young Israeli who detest the religous nationalism that has infected Israeli Politics but, unfortunately, they compose quite a small minority. Now it`s likely that theyll be even smaller. Make no mistake, the Israeli policy toward the Palestinians is genocidal, but they have always been very careful to adopt a gradualist approach so they can argue that its not.
What is quite likely is that the majority responsible for the attacks on Israelis have fled to Egypt or elsewhere and those left are Palestinian civilians. In light of that, there is absolutely no excuse for a ground invasion of Gaza and the bombing campaign. Nor is there an excuse for the support the Israelis are receiving when their crimes are simultaneously ignored.
The link to Russia and China is interesting. While it wouldnt surprise me, I know Bibi has been very careful not to upset the Russian and Ukrainian populations but I`m not sure how public opinion is among the Russian-Israeli community. Most people are also blissfully unaware of just how much the Chinese age interfering across the world, but the extent is quite terrifying. I wouldnt be surprised if you see the CCP and United Russia being opportunistic here and taking a cynical chance to try and generate some positive PR.
One over-arching issue is that followers of the Middle-Eastern mythologies are the first to play the discrimination card if their ideology is the subject of Criticism, yet demand respect for their own beliefs and always push to enshrine them in law. You see this from Jew, Christian and Muslim alike. Definitely not surprised that those on here with Christian-leanings are pro-Israeli. I`m just glad that Scotland and Sweden are both now majority non-religious and by-and-large we can separate ourselves from this nonsense.
The Jews should never have been put in Palestine and for me, that will always be the case. Curious to see what the UN can do, if anything but I do hope they can intervene with peacekeepers and aid in Gaza.
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Topic Originator: parsfan
Date: Sun 15 Oct 12:36
Plus ça change...
Gerald Kaufman, in 2009.
TLDR- "It is time for peace, but real peace, not the solution by conquest which is the Israelis’ real goal but which it is impossible for them to achieve. They are not simply war criminals; they are fools".
The full speech:
I was brought up as an orthodox Jew and a Zionist. On a shelf in our kitchen, there was a tin box for the Jewish National Fund, into which we put coins to help the pioneers building a Jewish presence in Palestine.
I first went to Israel in 1961 and I have been there since more times than I can count. I had family in Israel and have friends in Israel. One of them fought in the wars of 1956, 1967 and 1973 and was wounded in two of them. The tie clip that I am wearing is made from a campaign decoration awarded to him, which he presented to me.
I have known most of the Prime Ministers of Israel, starting with the founding Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion. Golda Meir was my friend, as was Yigal Allon, Deputy Prime Minister, who, as a general, won the Negev for Israel in the 1948 war of independence.
My parents came to Britain as refugees from Poland. Most of their families were subsequently murdered by the Nazis in the holocaust. My grandmother was ill in bed when the Nazis came to her home town of Staszow. A German soldier shot her dead in her bed.
My grandmother did not die to provide cover for Israeli soldiers murdering Palestinian grandmothers in Gaza. The current Israeli Government ruthlessly and cynically exploit the continuing guilt among gentiles over the slaughter of Jews in the holocaust as justification for their murder of Palestinians. The implication is that Jewish lives are precious, but the lives of Palestinians do not count.
On Sky News a few days ago, the spokeswoman for the Israeli army, Major Leibovich, was asked about the Israeli killing of, at that time, 800 Palestinians—the total is now 1,000. She replied instantly that
“500 of them were militants.”
That was the reply of a Nazi. I suppose that the Jews fighting for their lives in the Warsaw ghetto could have been dismissed as militants.
The Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni asserts that her Government will have no dealings with Hamas, because they are terrorists. Tzipi Livni’s father was Eitan Livni, chief operations officer of the terrorist Irgun Zvai Leumi, who organised the blowing-up of the King David hotel in Jerusalem, in which 91 victims were killed, including four Jews.Israel was born out of Jewish terrorism. Jewish terrorists hanged two British sergeants and booby-trapped their corpses. Irgun, together with the terrorist Stern gang, massacred 254 Palestinians in 1948 in the village of Deir Yassin. Today, the current Israeli Government indicate that they would be willing, in circumstances acceptable to them, to negotiate with the Palestinian President Abbas of Fatah. It is too late for that. They could have negotiated with Fatah’s previous leader, Yasser Arafat, who was a friend of mine. Instead, they besieged him in a bunker in Ramallah, where I visited him. Because of the failings of Fatah since Arafat’s death, Hamas won the Palestinian election in 2006. Hamas is a deeply nasty organisation, but it was democratically elected, and it is the only game in town. The boycotting of Hamas, including by our Government, has been a culpable error, from which dreadful consequences have followed.
The great Israeli Foreign Minister Abba Eban, with whom I campaigned for peace on many platforms, said:
“You make peace by talking to your enemies.”
However many Palestinians the Israelis murder in Gaza, they cannot solve this existential problem by military means. Whenever and however the fighting ends, there will still be 1.5 million Palestinians in Gaza and 2.5 million more on the west bank. They are treated like dirt by the Israelis, with hundreds of road blocks and with the ghastly denizens of the illegal Jewish settlements harassing them as well. The time will come, not so long from now, when they will outnumber the Jewish population in Israel.
It is time for our Government to make clear to the Israeli Government that their conduct and policies are unacceptable, and to impose a total arms ban on Israel. It is time for peace, but real peace, not the solution by conquest which is the Israelis’ real goal but which it is impossible for them to achieve. They are not simply war criminals; they are fools.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The universe is ruled by chance and indifference
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Topic Originator: Andrew283
Date: Sun 15 Oct 13:32
Starmer now doubling down on his little love in with Israel. Palestinian lives are irrelevant. The guy is vile
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Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend
Date: Sun 15 Oct 15:44
Interesting and informative posts from HJ and parsfan.
Sickening to see the support Israel are getting from the west
It`s bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Sun 15 Oct 19:48
Quote:
Raymie the Legend, Sun 15 Oct 15:44
Interesting and informative posts from HJ and parsfan.
Sickening to see the support Israel are getting from the west
There has been evil and wrongdoing on both sides. The actions of Hamas are horrendous as has been the retaliation by Israel.
There can never be peace between the two as long as they remain hell bent on killing every last enemy fighter. The West should be urging both sides to find a peaceful solution instead of making out that Israel are the good guys.
I`ve just watched a news clip of a Gaza City hospital and an interview with doctors who are looking after people who can`t be moved, including premature babies. One said that if Israeli soldiers are going to kill them, it might as well be in the hospital. Horrendous prospect.
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: donj
Date: Mon 16 Oct 20:44
Defensive or evil.Making sure no life saving supplies can get to the Palestinian population.
Trucks carrying badly needed supplies have waited for days at Egypt’s border crossing with Gaza but repeated Israeli strikes and a diplomatic stalemate with Cairo have meant they have been unable to enter. An Israeli airstrike hit the border crossing again on Monday evening, a BBC journalist in Gaza reported, the fourth time the area has been bombed since the war began.
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Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Tue 17 Oct 19:32
Hundreds now dead in a strike on a Palestinian hospital…..lets see who condemns this as a war crime and who doesnt…..
Post Edited (Tue 17 Oct 20:12)
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Tue 17 Oct 19:56
This has to be stopped now .. genocide happening for all to see .. Human suffering .. Rishi sickened by anti semitism remarks .. Get a grip .. UK .. USA .. UN .. step in NOW and stop Israel fulfilling their objective
We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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Topic Originator: parsfan
Date: Tue 17 Oct 21:44
Now saying 5-800 and the Israelis are blaming Islamic Jihad...despite having tweeted earlier that they did it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The universe is ruled by chance and indifference
Post Edited (Tue 17 Oct 22:45)
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Topic Originator: Andrew283
Date: Wed 18 Oct 01:49
Mainz 05 have just sacked El Ghazi for posting a message "From the River to the Sea, Palestine will be free".
The western bias in this is out of control
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Topic Originator: da_no_1
Date: Wed 18 Oct 10:17
When missiles are being fired at will in all directions I suppose its inevitable one will go astray. I say this with absolutely no knowledge or back up information whatsoever
"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
Post Edited (Wed 18 Oct 10:17)
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Topic Originator: veteraneastender
Date: Wed 18 Oct 10:30
The IDF spokesman claimed that there had been multiple rocked malfunctions which had caused misfires within Gaza territory - and showed a map.
Who knows - they say the first casualty of war is the truth.
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Wed 18 Oct 10:45
Quote:
veteraneastender, Wed 18 Oct 09:52
IDF spokesman claiming (in detail) that the hospital explosion was a Hamas missile which failed to launch and misfired.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zulx1UJTOU
I`d imagine some of our younger posters will take this as gospel - probably those who are 7 or under,
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: Bandy
Date: Wed 18 Oct 11:12
I`m older than 7 and, personally, I think the chances of the IDF deliberately bombing a hospital are vanishingly small. A misfire from a Palestinian rocket does feel more plausible.
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Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Wed 18 Oct 11:56
Palestinian death toll now stands at treble the toll from the Hamas attack, with reports of over 14,000 injured, along with the 1.1 million displaced citizens.
At what point does this no longer become “self defence” and a “reasonable response”?
It looks like the major players are still sticking to their guns behind Israel. The IDF also claimed there were no air operations at that time above Gaza, but somehow a drone collected footage…
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Wed 18 Oct 12:37
Quote:
Bandy, Wed 18 Oct 11:12
I`m older than 7 and, personally, I think the chances of the IDF deliberately bombing a hospital are vanishingly small. A misfire from a Palestinian rocket does feel more plausible.
Well, you may be right, Bandy, but I find it equally hard to swallow that Hamas would deliberately bomb their own hospital. There`s no doubt there are some extremely fanatical elements in that organisation, but surely they wouldn`t stoop so low.
If it was an accident, it could have been either side.
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: Bandy
Date: Wed 18 Oct 14:04
I don`t know much of Hamas, so what I`m saying is conjecture.
I don`t think they intentionally bombed the hospital, that`s too low for them, but an accident, yeah, I believe that.
I also think it`s possible that they bombed the `safe` routes out of Northern Gaza, as they need people to stay in the North as human shields.
I don`t know that either of those happened, but they are both plausible.
As the saying goes - the first causality of war is truth. Never has that been truer than today. I just don`t know who to believe anymore.
Fake news has ruined us.
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Wed 18 Oct 14:27
It`s been reported that the same hospital was struck by a missile last Saturday. That would indicate not one `accident` but two. Yesterday evening the British manager present at the hospital stated that the missile was an Israeli one; the hospital`s official position at present is not to apportion blame to any party.
If Israel are responsible for the attack, as seems most likely, it would be impossible to acknowledge this without Biden being exposed as, at best, the dupe of the century as he embraces Netanyahu. Any attempts by western media to unearth the truth will have to be postponed until after Biden completes his curtailed visit to the region. So we can expect more of the James Cleverley style advice not to rush to judgment, until the heat dies down.
A deliberate `hit` on a hospital might appear idiotic, whether from a military or political perspective. But not so much in the context of people being denied fuel, food or water. If the intention is to drive Palestinians out of Gaza by means of terror then there is method in the madness.
sammer
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Topic Originator: desparado
Date: Wed 18 Oct 15:10
Find it hard to believe that a Hamas “ home made “ rocket could cause such devastation. Far more plausible that it was an Israeli missile as those are certainly capable of destroying a whole building…..
What an opportunity we missed in 2014.
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Wed 18 Oct 15:36
Biden backing the Israelis account of the hospital bombing
We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend
Date: Wed 18 Oct 16:47
Quote:
Dave_1885, Wed 18 Oct 11:56
Palestinian death toll now stands at treble the toll from the Hamas attack, with reports of over 14,000 injured, along with the 1.1 million displaced citizens.
At what point does this no longer become “self defence” and a “reasonable response”?
…
Spot on
It`s bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983
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Topic Originator: veteraneastender
Date: Wed 18 Oct 16:48
"Find it hard to believe that a Hamas “ home made “ rocket could cause such devastation. Far more plausible that it was an Israeli missile as those are certainly capable of destroying a whole building….."
May not have been a DIY missile - Hamas have been getting ordnance from external sources for years.
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Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Wed 18 Oct 16:49
Quote:
Buspasspar, Wed 18 Oct 15:36
Biden backing the Israelis account of the hospital bombing
Of course he is….is this not what Israel do though? Blame Hamas until they have woven themself into a web then back track and back track and back track?
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Topic Originator: sadindiefreak
Date: Wed 18 Oct 17:53
Quote:
Bandy, Wed 18 Oct 11:12
I`m older than 7 and, personally, I think the chances of the IDF deliberately bombing a hospital are vanishingly small. A misfire from a Palestinian rocket does feel more plausible.
I`ve seen footage of a rocket misfiring mid air and two explosions on the ground after.
Claims are that this is the rocket in question.
Only to be expected if you are making rockets out of dug up water pipes.
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Wed 18 Oct 18:30
Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Wed 18 Oct 16:49
Quote:
Buspasspar, Wed 18 Oct 15:36
Biden backing the Israelis account of the hospital bombing
Of course he is….is this not what Israel do though? Blame Hamas until they have woven themself into a web then back track and back track and back track?
No arguments from me Dave .. but maybe he is privy to better intel/info than most of us on dot net
We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Wed 18 Oct 21:40
Not wanting to disrespect any Guardian readers or in fact the Paper .. but that article has been copied and pasted from the many archives available on this very sad situation .. With maybe .. just maybe .. a wee bit extra narrative
We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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Topic Originator: donj
Date: Wed 18 Oct 22:34
I read lots of stuff but at least that article was a bit correct although not as really accurate about how the palestinians have been mistreated for many years.We are lucky to be comfortable and safe but I can still feel pity for people who are not as lucky,
Btw we had a few muslim friends who we met in Egypt and they even sent Christmas cards to us.People are people and most can get on regardless of religion.
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Thu 19 Oct 04:04
Quote:
donj, Wed 18 Oct 22:34
I read lots of stuff but at least that article was a bit correct although not as really accurate about how the palestinians have been mistreated for many years.We are lucky to be comfortable and safe but I can still feel pity for people who are not as lucky,
Btw we had a few muslim friends who we met in Egypt and they even sent Christmas cards to us.People are people and most can get on regardless of religion.
Good post, donj. It`s not religion per se that is the problem. It`s the way it is interpreted by some fanatical extremists.
John Lennon cracked it with "Imagine."
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Tue 24 Oct 07:04
Here`s an interesting article that gives some insight into the plight of anyone of Palestinian descent:
link click
I can`t imagine life will be any easier for Palestinians who actually live or work there. It`s not difficult to see why some of the more belligerent ones resent the oppression and limited freedom they have to suffer and rebel against it.
I`m not condoning murderous behaviour in any way, but if the root causes are not addressed, this conflict will continue for a very long time.
Not your average Sunday League player.
Post Edited (Tue 24 Oct 07:09)
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Tue 24 Oct 09:47
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/23/israel-shows-footage-of-hamas-killings-to-counter-denial-of-atrocities
Grim reading
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Tue 24 Oct 11:42
Why is every Israeli that is killed announced as an American-Israeli or a British Israeli? 🤔 is this just an attempt by Western media to stir up the hatred of Palestine more and get behind the leaders backing mass war crimes by Israel?
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Tue 24 Oct 11:51
The media aren`t describing every Israeli killed or murdered as British Israeli or American Israeli.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: da_no_1
Date: Tue 24 Oct 16:56
Quote:
The One Who Knocks, Tue 24 Oct 09:47
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/23/israel-shows-footage-of-hamas-killings-to-counter-denial-of-atrocities
Grim reading
That actually makes me feel sick.
Human beings really can be disgusting creatures.
"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
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Topic Originator: donj
Date: Tue 24 Oct 18:34
Such nice people running Israel.Even stating that the Hamas attack was appalling they call for his resignation for even pretending Palestinians deserve protection.
Israel calls on UN chief to resign
Israel’s ambassador to the UN, Gilad Erdan, has called on UN secretary-general, António Guterres, to resign after his remarks earlier today saying the “appalling attacks” by Hamas inside Israel on 7 October cannot justify the “collective punishment of the Palestinian people”.
Things got pretty aggressive at the UN security council meeting at the UN headquarters in New York a little earlier, after Guterres called for a ceasefire in Israel and Gaza and said that the attacks by Hamas on southern Israel on 7 October didn’t happen “in a vacuum” and followed “56 years of suffocating occupation” for the Palestinian people by Israel.
Erdan posted angrily on X/Twitter, demanding that Guterres resign immediately.
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Tue 24 Oct 18:56
Thanks GG.
I don`t think any words could cover it. Don`t envy any of those journalists having to view that footage. Images and scenes you won`t be able to get out of your mind for some time.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Tue 24 Oct 20:40
I don`t want to watch it .. always been a big fearty .. RIP all the poor souls
We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Tue 24 Oct 21:35
So, now the UN have said it, will Israel now be charged with breaking international law? And condemned by the rest of the worlds heads of state?
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Topic Originator: Andrew283
Date: Wed 25 Oct 04:54
The Israeli higher ups have shown how desperate they`ve been for this situation to come up. No sympathy for those they are launching rockets at. Terrorise a country, then get angry they fight back. Absolute bully tactics
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Wed 25 Oct 06:28
The rest of the world needs to realise there are no good guys and bad guys in this conflict. Dreadful atrocities have been perpetrated by both Israel and Hamas. Hoping one side or the other is going to win isn`t helping the innocent people caught up in the fighting. Even less is supplying arms to either side.
Both Israel and Hamas seem determined to wipe each other off the map. Political leaders should be coming up with proposals for a permanent, peaceful solution before countries like Iran are drawn into a war in which many more people may needlessly die.
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Wed 25 Oct 09:53
Quote:
GG Riva, Wed 25 Oct 06:28
The rest of the world needs to realise there are no good guys and bad guys in this conflict. Dreadful atrocities have been perpetrated by both Israel and Hamas. Hoping one side or the other is going to win isn`t helping the innocent people caught up in the fighting. Even less is supplying arms to either side.
Both Israel and Hamas seem determined to wipe each other off the map. Political leaders should be coming up with proposals for a permanent, peaceful solution before countries like Iran are drawn into a war in which many more people may needlessly die.
Problem with that GG is that the Western leaders want Israel to win and under the surface don’t care how they do it - or they’d already be condemning them!
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Topic Originator: donj
Date: Wed 25 Oct 18:22
Peoples lives seem to mean nothing in all wars for all the leaders.It might be better if those leaders had a square go to sort things out rather than letting innocent people die.
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Topic Originator: donj
Date: Mon 30 Oct 20:08
And so sayeth the barbarian that even the Jewish people are not happy with.
Netanyahu: Israel will not agree to ceasefire in Gaza, adding `this is a time for war`
Benjamin Netanyahu is speaking now at a briefing, where he describes the Hamas attack on Israel on 7 October as a “turning point” for leaders and nations.
The Israeli prime minister, speaking in English, says it is time “to decide if we are willing to fight for a future of hope and promise, or surrender to tyranny and terror”.
Israel “did not start this war” but it will win this war, he says. “Israel will stand against the forces of barbarism until victory,” he says.
He says he wants to make clear Israel’s position regarding a ceasefire in Gaza:
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Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Mon 30 Oct 22:09
Over 450 children killed or injured daily in Gaza and the West Bank are the latest numbers given by not Hamas, but Unicef……but its all in self defence 🙄 sickening that the US and UK are still backing this!
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Mon 30 Oct 23:08
The death toll is around a 1,000 children a week. It`s genocide by any any other name.
But who cares? Netanyahu? Or Sir Keir Starmer? I doubt it. Thank God for western values and respect for international law.
sammer
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Topic Originator: parsmad68
Date: Tue 31 Oct 07:07
I do business in Israel but all work has stopped since the recent conflict started. Something which is of consideration is that the development team (highly skilled) have all been called up creating a vacuum of young people performing work.
My point is as follows. Imagine you are sitting in an office working on software one day then the next you are plonked in a tank facing a human on the opposite side of the road who believes correctly that a foreign government has invaded your country, destroyed homes and killed families is now in front of you. Both frightened young people. The power is only with one side and as he is not combat trained, more susceptible to frightened decisions.
I have tried to place myself into the position stated above and each time I realise I cannot imagine the fear, utter devastation, lack of hope, lack of a final resolution.
Maybe because I have a personal connection to people I cannot get to grips with how this will eventually end.
Genuine human tragedy.
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Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Tue 31 Oct 19:57
It is quite interesting, that Israel has now claimed to have killed tens, if not hundreds, of Hamas terrorists, but has provided no proof to the fact they were actually Hamas terrorists.
They are still avoiding the fact they are murdering hundreds of innocents as well….
Post Edited (Tue 31 Oct 21:37)
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Topic Originator: Andrew283
Date: Wed 1 Nov 11:20
The bastards are now wearing paper yellow stars to UN meetings, probably to invoke sympathy. The sheer irony and an insult to any holocaust survivors.
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Topic Originator: veteraneastender
Date: Wed 1 Nov 19:03
When push comes to shove Israel pays no heed to world opinion - they have a deeply entrenched "no surrender" mindset and always respond to aggression with military force.
The result of the Hamas action last month has hardened their resolve to take whatever military action they deem necessary to eradicate the threat, even if that means civilian casualties.
It`s a tragic mess all round.
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Topic Originator: OzPar
Date: Thu 2 Nov 06:54
I beg you to watch this interview with Scott Ritter, the former UN weapons inspector. He provides a superb and biting analysis of the situation in Israel/Palestine today. He pulls no punches, and I must admit, I find it hard to counter his opinions. If he is correct, for the first time since 1948, there may be some reason for hope in the Middle East.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YV_HsiJg8Io
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Topic Originator: sadindiefreak
Date: Thu 2 Nov 07:51
Quote:
OzPar, Thu 2 Nov 06:54
I beg you to watch this interview with Scott Ritter, the former UN weapons inspector. He provides a superb and biting analysis of the situation in Israel/Palestine today. He pulls no punches, and I must admit, I find it hard to counter his opinions. If he is correct, for the first time since 1948, there may be some reason for hope in the Middle East.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YV_HsiJg8Io
Convicted paedophile Scott Ritter?
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Topic Originator: OzPar
Date: Thu 2 Nov 08:21
Look, sadindiefreak, I know nothing about this, so I have just done a Google search. Okay, he has been the subject of a sting, and he has been caught being naughty. Okay, fair enough. But let`s move on a step...
Having done that search, I now find that my reply to your message is subject to many distortions I have never experienced before on dotnet. And bear in mind that I have been a member since day one... getting on for 30 years ago.
I say, hang on, something is interfering with this open discussion, and I say, well, F*CK YOU, ISRAELI C*NTS!
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Topic Originator: alwaysaPar
Date: Thu 2 Nov 10:09
👀👀👀
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Topic Originator: OzPar
Date: Thu 2 Nov 10:50
Do you have an issue with that? Because I certainly have an issue! Are you going to remain silent about this???
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Topic Originator: veteraneastender
Date: Thu 2 Nov 11:39
Oz, are you saying that your messages on THIS forum are being altered by an external source ?
I’m not clear on the dynamics.
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Topic Originator: JTH123
Date: Thu 2 Nov 18:55
I`m confused about whether Oz`s stopped giving a XXXX or has just drank too much of the local XXXX 😳.
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Topic Originator: OzPar
Date: Thu 2 Nov 19:06
VEE, something odd happened when I posted a few hours ago; as I typed in the reply box here, the box became enlarged, and while I pressed the keyboard, alternate letters were coming up on my screen. I sensed someone was toying with my laptop. Fortunately, the occurrence was brief.
It may just have been an anomaly, but then again, it may not. I don`t usually adhere to conspiracy theories, but there is so much interference going on in the coverage of these horrific events it is conceivable that posting a link to a YouTube feature that is anti-Israeli government can lead to unexpected consequences.
After all, we live in a world where your phone and laptop listen out to your private conversations for prompts to send you an advertisement; who is to say what other things are going on without you being aware?
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Thu 2 Nov 20:00
Oz
I had a similar experience .. I was posting when someone took over my post
It was a very similar situation as giving permission to your network provider to share your screen .. when they take control and move the cursor ..
I switched off immediately and have never had the problem again ..
eta .. Hope you are well
Post Edited (Thu 02 Nov 21:13)
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Topic Originator: OzPar
Date: Thu 2 Nov 23:25
Interesting, BPP. I also rebooted, and things returned to normal. As I said, it could be a simple anomaly, perhaps caused by my cat walking over the keyboard and pressing a control or command button. On the other hand, it could be someone remotely up to no good. Either way, it is bound to have had nothing to do with the dotnet website.
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Fri 3 Nov 16:02
Thanks for sharing that donj .. Interesting read
We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Sat 4 Nov 09:57
No a two state solution is the only one that will work long term in my opinion.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Sat 4 Nov 11:22
How would that work with the West Bank though TOWK?
It has hundreds of fortified Israeli settlements full of people indoctrinated into thinking of Arabs as sub-human, all surrounded by people indoctrinated into thinking of Jews as sub-human.
I cannot see a solution which both sides would accept.
The enemy travels by private jet, not by dinghy.
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Topic Originator: DBP
Date: Sat 4 Nov 11:23
Problem with a two state solution is you’d need to redraw boundary lines as the current parts of Palestine don’t connect
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Topic Originator: Socks
Date: Sat 4 Nov 12:40
There`s an interesting link in that article in The Canary, which in turn links to an article (in Hebrew) that apparently references an Israeli government document showing a plan to successively push the population of Gaza further South and eventually resettle them on the Sinai peninsula. The link to the orginal document is provided, but not being able to read Hebrew script makes it impossible for me to check it. Do we have any Hebrew readers who can read that?
https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/1719005698300813488
rb.gy/g1k0d
It would be interesting to check that.
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Sat 4 Nov 12:52
Yeah Wotsit, a two state solution isn`t even close to workable just now but a one state solution could never work. At least I can`t see how.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: veteraneastender
Date: Sat 4 Nov 13:30
Quote:
Socks, Sat 4 Nov 12:40
There`s an interesting link in that article in The Canary, which in turn links to an article (in Hebrew) that apparently references an Israeli government document showing a plan to successively push the population of Gaza further South and eventually resettle them on the Sinai peninsula. The link to the orginal document is provided, but not being able to read Hebrew script makes it impossible for me to check it. Do we have any Hebrew readers who can read that?
https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/1719005698300813488
rb.gy/g1k0d
It would be interesting to check that.
The Egyptians just won’t accept “resettled” Palestinians on their territory, that’s why they strictly control movement at the border crossing point from Gaza.
They fear permanent refugee camps springing up on Egyptian soil as happened in other countries bordering Israel.
Post Edited (Sat 04 Nov 13:31)
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Topic Originator: OzPar
Date: Sun 5 Nov 00:30
Arguably, the most important journalist in Israel for the past few decades is Gideon Levy. He writes for the newspaper Haaretz and, for 35 years, has had a column known as `The Twilight Zone` that focuses on human stories about the occupation. He often appears on TV and radio discussions here in Australia, and I would imagine he does, too, in the UK.
Levy is a courageous man, given the environment he works in. His argument against the two-state solution is the best I have heard yet. He says there already are 700,000 illegal settlers in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and they will never be removed. And if they cannot be removed, there is no viable Palestinian state (under a two-state solution). Politicians in the West know this but continue to perpetrate the myth to bolster their support for the state of Israel.
Levy then asks what is left, and the only realistic proposal is a one-state solution. It may be unthinkable to the Zionists and the ultra-religious right, but there is growing, if still small, support on both sides of the divide for it.
Ever since 1967, it has been a one-state. The reality is that the West Bank, with all those illegal settler villages, is part of Israel whether you like it or not, and Gaza, the biggest cage in the world, is under the total control of Israel.
The main problem is the political regime. It is not a democracy. It is an apartheid state. There is no equality whatsoever. One group shares all the rights, and the other has no rights at all, including citizenship. Palestine is the only country in the world with no citizens.
Until this is adequately addressed, we must treat Israel as a pariah state. The outcome may not please the Zionists and the Ultra-Orthodox Jews, but they must learn to live in peace with their neighbours, and this is the only realistic way.
Their despicable behaviour over 75 years proves they need a sharp and painful reality check. And if that means one day the Knesset is made up of politicians who are Jewish, Arab, Palestinian, Christian, or whatever, then so be it. That`s real democracy, and one their neighbours will accept.
We cannot continue to sit idly by and stay silent while thousands of Palestinian women and children die under indiscriminate rocket fire.
In many respects, this is infinitely worse than what happened in South Africa. It has to end.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWwMa1t0aNY
Post Edited (Sun 05 Nov 01:00)
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Sun 5 Nov 00:50
I don`t wish to discredit Ozpar`s analysis in which he makes reference to South Africa, but everything he has said was said earlier by Nelson Mandela in relation to Palestine. Ozpar speaks well.
Let us not forget that Mandela was considered a terrorist for most of his life, on technically good legal grounds, much as Hamas is today. In fact he was only taken off the USA terrorist list- for what that is worth- around 2006.
sammer
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Topic Originator: donj
Date: Sun 5 Nov 08:49
And when you think surely this lot could not get an lower this quote was reported by an Israeli newspaper.
Heritage minister Amichai Eliyahu of the Otzma Yehudit party is quoted by the Times of Israel as saying in an interview with Radio Kol Berama that the Palestinian people “can go to Ireland or deserts, the monsters in Gaza should find a solution by themselves,” adding that those who wave a Palestinian or Hamas flag “shouldn’t continue living on the face of the earth.”
It quotes him saying that dropping a nuclear bomb on the Gaza Strip “is one of the possibilities”, and that humanitarian aid to the population should be restricted, saying “we wouldn’t hand the Nazis humanitarian aid. There is no such thing as uninvolved civilians in Gaza.”
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Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Sun 5 Nov 10:44
Problem is though, Oz, is that we aren’t sitting idly by and watching - the west are fully backing Israel and there position wont change.
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Sun 5 Nov 10:48
"Their despicable behaviour over 75 years proves they need a sharp and painful reality check. And if that means one day the Knesset is made up of politicians who are Jewish, Arab, Palestinian, Christian, or whatever, then so be it. That`s real democracy, and one their neighbours will accept."
Why would there neighbours give a monkeys about real democracy? None of their neighbours are democratic.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Sun 5 Nov 11:12
This is going to sound like a daft question, but why do people dislike Jews? I couldn`t even tell you if I have Jewish friends or colleagues. What`s the deal?
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Topic Originator: OzPar
Date: Sun 5 Nov 11:15
TOWK, if you listen to the Muslim guy`s comments (see my post on Saturday at 09:21), you will get the answer to your question.
And Dave, I agree with you. But one has to hope that sentiment will change over time.
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Sun 5 Nov 11:40
Jake, it goes back centuries. Hundreds of years ago Christians and, I think Muslims, couldn`t make money from money. As in they couldn`t charge interest. So the monarchs of various realms would invite Jews to live in their countries so that they could lend money to a community, to say build a well or bridge or whatever. Of course one way of not repaying this debt would be just to murder the Jew that lent you the money in the first place and it would be more justifiable to the scumbag that would do the killing to portray the Jews as inherently evil and disgusting people. It of course also lead to some Jewish families becoming wealthy and having a degree of influence but no more than any other group who had acquired wealth. The Jews lurking in the background as shadowy cabal running the world for their own benefit is one of the more dangerous anti semetic tropes and it is deeply ingrained into some.
I mean even Oz Par is affected by it. He was having some technical difficulty with his computer and his go to position was that it was maybe Israeli`s messing with his ability to be critical on a second tier Scottish football clubs football forum with a readership in the low hundreds.
Post Edited (Sun 05 Nov 11:41)
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Sun 5 Nov 11:47
Ah, so just historic nonsense then?
I`ve no doubt the world is controlled by people who are not elected leaders but also assume that`s known/accepted by the majority and doubt they`re all Jewish!
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Topic Originator: OzPar
Date: Sun 5 Nov 12:58
Hang on, TOWK. I explained what I thought might be happening. While there was a low likelihood, there was a possibility that by creating a link to a YouTube video that is highly critical of Israel, I may have triggered an algorithm that set off a wee bit of mischief on my laptop keyboard—nothing to do with dotnet.
Let`s be careful to distinguish between Jews and the State of Israel. I have worked for and with some excellent Jewish bosses and colleagues, and even had a Jewish girlfriend once upon a time. So please spare me the antisemitic accusations.
As for the State of Israel, I have a deep dislike for the current Israeli Government. For reasons I have already given in this thread, I`m not too fond of Likud because its terrorist creators tried to kill my father and succeeded in killing some of his closest friends.
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Sun 5 Nov 13:55
I think it`s fair to say that you need to disassociate Likud from Israel the same way we are told to not conflate Hama`s with the Palestinians. Both are political movements voted into positions of power by some of their people however.
This is obviously an emotional issue for you but when you made the statement a couple of days ago;
"I say, hang on, something is interfering with this open discussion, and I say, well, F*CK YOU, ISRAELI C*NTS!", it certainly made me look twice.
At the time I couldn`t and still can`t figure out who you were raging at with that tirade? Suffice to say if you had put any other nationality before the C word I don`t doubt it would have been deemed unacceptable.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: Bamba-Daft
Date: Sun 5 Nov 14:22
Quote:
The One Who Knocks, Sun 05 Nov 13:55
I think it`s fair to say that you need to disassociate Likud from Israel the same way we are told to not conflate Hama`s with the Palestinians. Both are political movements voted into positions of power by some of their people however.
This is obviously an emotional issue for you but when you made the statement a couple of days ago;
"I say, hang on, something is interfering with this open discussion, and I say, well, F*CK YOU, ISRAELI C*NTS!", it certainly made me look twice.
At the time I couldn`t and still can`t figure out who you were raging at with that tirade? Suffice to say if you had put any other nationality before the C word I don`t doubt it would have been deemed unacceptable.
A good point well made. Replace the word Israeli with say Pakistani, or Irish.. this forum would be in total meltdown.
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Topic Originator: Luxembourg Par
Date: Mon 6 Nov 17:03
Quote:
Bamba-Daft, Sun 5 Nov 14:22
A good point well made. Replace the word Israeli with say Pakistani, or Irish.. this forum would be in total meltdown.
Hang on, I know quite a few good Irish c*nts!
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Topic Originator: OzPar
Date: Tue 7 Nov 04:34
I wonder how long any one of you would last in Australia before someone called you a "Pommy c#nt"?
Picture, if you can, East End Park packed to the rafters with every seat occupied by a dead Palestinian. Every seat in the Norrie, every seat in the NW Stand, contains a dead child.
That is the scale of what has occurred in Gaza in the past month. It confounds common sense that the world is prepared to allow this evil to persist.
And now it is emerging that many of the early Israeli claims about the actions taken by Hamas on October 7 were untrue. Child beheadings, rapes, Jewish mass graves, even the number of Israelis killed by Hamas fighters. Fiction. Survivors of the attacks on a kibbutz told Israeli State Radio it was Israeli tank shells and indiscriminate IDF firing that "undoubtedly" killed many of the victims, not Hamas gunfire. Strangely, that was immediately suppressed. But, for some homework, go Google the meaning of the Israeli term, Hasbara, and the definition of the "Hannibal Doctrine".
We also now are learning that for years, the Israeli Government has referred to Gaza not as a concentration camp but as "The Lab", a place where they could test out new weaponry and surveillance devices. Doesn’t that remind you of the Nazis?
What country uses an ethnically cleansed and imprisoned population to test out weaponry? Water, fuel, and electricity are taken away from two million people who are having bombs rained down on them every day from an apartheid regime next door. Nowhere is safe – schools and hospitals are bombed – there is no distinguishing between civilians and combatants. Can you begin to imagine what that would be like? I saw a woman yesterday describing how she had lost 30 of her family in two days.
And when a Palestinian diplomat revealed on BBC TV that he had just lost six family members in Israeli strikes, Kirsty Wark replies, "Sorry for your personal loss. Can I just be clear, though? You cannot condone the killing of civilians in Israel, can you?"
The root cause of so much hate, strife and bloodshed is Zionism, a psychopathic nationalist movement that masquerades in a religion`s name. The truth is a high proportion of Jews have a low regard for Zionism, so why is there so much support for it in the West? Politics and the media are infested with supporters of Zionism. History shows that Jews and Muslims primarily lived in harmony in every Arab land until the awakening of Zionism and the creation of the Balfour Agreement. Cause and effect; it is obvious!
Ultimately, we have allowed our leaders to sponsor an apartheid regime in Tel Aviv in our name.
The sense of hopelessness with the Gaza situation can feel overwhelming. So, what can we do? Do we howl at the moon in a vain belief that this will help? Or do we actively boycott all support for Israel until they change their attitude towards their neighbours? And perhaps call them c#nts at every possible opportunity?
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Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend
Date: Tue 7 Nov 09:28
Very good post, Oz.
What we are seeing is truly shameful and disgusting
It`s bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983
Post Edited (Tue 07 Nov 09:30)
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Tue 7 Nov 11:01
A very good and evocative post Oz
We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Tue 7 Nov 16:36
Quote:
OzPar, Tue 7 Nov 04:34
And now it is emerging that many of the early Israeli claims about the actions taken by Hamas on October 7 were untrue. Child beheadings, rapes, Jewish mass graves, even the number of Israelis killed by Hamas fighters. Fiction. Survivors of the attacks on a kibbutz told Israeli State Radio it was Israeli tank shells and indiscriminate IDF firing that "undoubtedly" killed many of the victims, not Hamas gunfire. Strangely, that was immediately suppressed. But, for some homework, go Google the meaning of the Israeli term, Hasbara, and the definition of the "Hannibal Doctrine".
We also now are learning that for years, the Israeli Government has referred to Gaza not as a concentration camp but as "The Lab", a place where they could test out new weaponry and surveillance devices. Doesn’t that remind you of the Nazis?
What country uses an ethnically cleansed and imprisoned population to test out weaponry? Water, fuel, and electricity are taken away from two million people who are having bombs rained down on them every day from an apartheid regime next door. Nowhere is safe – schools and hospitals are bombed – there is no distinguishing between civilians and combatants. Can you begin to imagine what that would be like? I saw a woman yesterday describing how she had lost 30 of her family in two days.
And when a Palestinian diplomat revealed on BBC TV that he had just lost six family members in Israeli strikes, Kirsty Wark replies, "Sorry for your personal loss. Can I just be clear, though? You cannot condone the killing of civilians in Israel, can you?"
The root cause of so much hate, strife and bloodshed is Zionism, a psychopathic nationalist movement that masquerades in a religion`s name. The truth is a high proportion of Jews have a low regard for Zionism, so why is there so much support for it in the West? Politics and the media are infested with supporters of Zionism. History shows that Jews and Muslims primarily lived in harmony in every Arab land until the awakening of Zionism and the creation of the Balfour Agreement. Cause and effect; it is obvious!
Ultimately, we have allowed our leaders to sponsor an apartheid regime in Tel Aviv in our name.
The sense of hopelessness with the Gaza situation can feel overwhelming. So, what can we do? Do we howl at the moon in a vain belief that this will help? Or do we actively boycott all support for Israel until they change their attitude towards their neighbours? And perhaps call them c#nts at every possible opportunity?
A passionate, well reasoned post, Oz.
As someone said further up, the first casualty of war is the truth. I don`t suppose this war is any different. Can you provide any links to the allegations you have listed in the first paragraph I have quoted above?
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Tue 7 Nov 19:09
Using a full house EEP as a guide to the deaths reported so far in Gaza brings home the scale of what is taking place. We can but guess how many Hamas activists have been killed so far- the declared reason for Israel’s offensive- but I suspect their numbers would barely fill the small enclosures in front of the main stand. Such a ratio might be considered a healthy return by Israel for whom bombing an entire building or ambulance containing merely one Hamas fighter is considered a proportionate response.
Given the political inertia exhibited by Israel’s staunchest allies a sense of hopelessness is understandable. Simon Jenkins in The Guardian today confessed he can no longer watch the depressing TV news from Gaza, an odd decision for a journalist and one which earned him praise from some readers and a heap of derision from others. His head in the sand defeatism will be warmly welcomed by those political and media elements who, far from striving might and main to halt the genocide, are actively promoting it through supplying weapons and a free hand to the IDF.
Peace demonstrations across Europe and the Arab world, often in defiance of government edict, have unnerved a political elite that apparently believed they could ‘sell’ Israeli vengeance against a blockaded people, starved of basic human resources and with no air force, army or navy, as ‘self defence.’ If demonstrations changed nothing then Suella Braverman would not try to ban them. Today Tommy Robinson has been exhumed in order to threaten a counter-demo on Saturday, potentially enabling Braverman to issue a ban on safety grounds. People on the streets means political pressure, so this opposition needs to be maintained.
The Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions policy was apparently a good idea to isolate Russia back in February 2022 but those neo cons who barked it from many a microphone have been struck dumb now the target is Israel. Its champions should be reminded, forcefully, of their earlier enthusiasm. The policy was no great game changer in terms of Russia admittedly but Israel is a much smaller country with fewer natural resources. And if UN votes are anything to go by, Israel does not have many friends to spare. The anti-Hamas rant last week at the UN General Assembly by Israel’s ambassador was met with stony silence from a full hall of delegates.
sammer
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Topic Originator: Tad Allagash
Date: Tue 7 Nov 19:09
jake89 wrote:
>
Socialist Worker? Really?
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Tue 7 Nov 19:34
Quote:
Tad Allagash, Tue 7 Nov 19:09
jake89 wrote:
>
Socialist Worker? Really?
The ask was where it had been reported. Don`t shoot the messenger.
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Topic Originator: Parboiled
Date: Tue 7 Nov 19:46
GG you can’t say a post is passionate and well argued and then ask for links to the allegations it is based on!
It could just be a load of unsubstantiated guff…
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Tue 7 Nov 20:56
Quote:
Parboiled, Tue 7 Nov 19:46
GG you can’t say a post is passionate and well argued and then ask for links to the allegations it is based on!
It could just be a load of unsubstantiated guff…
Why not? I just wanted to read the articles where this was reported and decide for myself if they are credible or not.
Eta. There will be plenty of "unsubstantiated guff" put out before this war is finished. History teaches us that the history of wars is written by the victors.
Not your average Sunday League player.
Post Edited (Tue 07 Nov 21:07)
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Tue 7 Nov 21:44
To be fair GG I did think that you were questioning Oz on his post and his allegations as you described them .. to see if they were genuine
Oz has posted the best on this thread without any doubt .. and I am sure he will not hold your reservations against you .. He is a top guy
We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Tue 7 Nov 22:20
A member of a jury is not confined to make his decision merely on established facts. He is entitled to draw inferences and conclusions from the evidence as presented as a whole.
On that basis I would, beyond a reasonable doubt, conclude that Israel was responsible for the Gaza hospital attack during Biden’s visit. They had hit that particular hospital previously and others in the years before. They have since targeted other hospitals on the pretext they house Hamas fighters or are built above underground tunnels used by Hamas. The fact the missile was reported as being an Israeli missile by the manager of the hospital- a British medic- and the nature of the explosion to me are guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Biden’s Reaganesque folksy disclaimer-‘ I think the other guys did it’- has the ring of duplicity. Biden is an established serial liar going back to his teenage years, hence his success in US politics. His son seems cast from the same mould.
The October 7th attack is harder to unravel. Hamas has conceded that non Hamas groups followed them through the fence- most of them had never been out of Hamas in their entire lives- and any atrocities would have been committed by them. It’s a bit too neat for me to pass any blame that way, but Hamas did have an agenda and that seemed to revolve around killing IDF reservists at military outposts and kidnapping civilians. Hardly noble behaviour, especially given the age range of the captives, but I struggle to understand why any insurgent force would waste time beheading babies or raping women.
And is 40 babies not an astonishingly high number as well as a neat one? This was a well planned insurgency, requiring the element of surprise, so sadism or bloodlust would have been detrimental to the whole enterprise. So on balance, at the moment I will go for that bastard verdict: non proven mostly on the Hamas concession that they were not the only insurgents.
sammer
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Topic Originator: OzPar
Date: Wed 8 Nov 02:42
GG is correct in asking me to identify my sources for the allegations that I made in my last post. And I am happy to do so, provided we acknowledge that all the information we receive on Gaza is being filtered in one way or another.
Israel forbids foreign journalists from reporting from Gaza. Instead, stories from Gaza are being fed to us by reporters who go to bed between clean sheets every night in comfortable hotels overlooking the beach in Tel Aviv.
The Qatari news network, Al Jazeera, has an operation in Gaza, though it has been targeted by the IDF on several occasions, the worst of which was the bombing of their 11-storey tower block office building in 2021. One of their best-known journalists, Shireen Abu Akleh, was assassinated by the IDF last year.
Obviously, Gaza is not a safe environment for journalists, but there are a few brave freelance reporters with contacts in the growing independent media in the West. I list the ones I have found most reliable to date below.
Concerning my main critical comments on my last post, these two links were beneficial: -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3h3S3zQYwo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIX368TtOJs
I strongly commend the works of respected academics like Ilan Pappe and Professor Norman Finkelstein, who offer tremendous historical perspective and context on the Israel/Palestine conflict.
Ilan Pappe
https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/11/5/why-israel-wants-to-erase-context-and-history-in-the-war-on-gaza
Prof. Norman Finkelstein
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUfWTHbCS78
For other, more news-oriented sources, these are some of the links I have found useful and generally reliable on YouTube: -
Al Jazeera English
Novara Media
Free Will
Electronic Intifada
Katie Halper
The Real News Network
I hope this is of some assistance.
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Wed 8 Nov 07:50
Quote:
Buspasspar, Tue 7 Nov 21:44
To be fair GG I did think that you were questioning Oz on his post and his allegations as you described them .. to see if they were genuine
Oz has posted the best on this thread without any doubt .. and I am sure he will not hold your reservations against you .. He is a top guy
I wasn`t intentionally questioning Oz, BPP. I used the term "allegations" in its purest sense. i.e. to describe something that has been presented as fact without conclusive evidence.
For me, there are two sets of allegations here:
1. Many children were beheaded by Hamas on Oct 7.
2. The above statement is a pack of lies.
Obviously, 1 and 2 can`t both be true, but we don`t know which. That`s why I refer to them (both) as allegations. That`s what I meant anyway.
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: sadindiefreak
Date: Wed 8 Nov 07:58
The second picture here is of a beheaded baby.
These pictures are not for the faint hearted so viewer discretion is advised.
There is a 47 minute video that gas had screenings to journalists and diplomats of the atrocities committed by Hamas.
Gal Gadot has held a screening of the video in Los Angeles also.
Sarah Silverman who has been a long time supporter of the Palestinian cause was challenged on social media to provide evidence of the beheadings. She has since resigned from "Dems for Palestine". She sought out the videos and confirmed she had seen the beheading footage herself.
I have absolutely no doubt this massacre happened.
!! Links deleted - Admin
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Wed 8 Nov 08:21
GG .. I understand
Oz .. another good post
SIF .. I cant watch anything like that
We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Wed 8 Nov 09:39
I had heard of these screenings SIF but I chose not to search out the evidence for myself as, like Buspass, I don`t want images like that seared into my memory. I did want to believe Oz when he assured as that the Israeli claims of such atrocities were fabricated but I knew it could be all too probable.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: OzPar
Date: Wed 8 Nov 10:17
No one is denying Hamas carried out dreadful atrocities on October 7. That would be absurd. The point is that there are Israeli witnesses to some of the events offering alternative versions to claims being made by the Israeli Government.
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Wed 8 Nov 10:26
Yes it would be absurd but you posted this yesterday Oz;
"And now it is emerging that many of the early Israeli claims about the actions taken by Hamas on October 7 were untrue. Child beheadings, rapes, Jewish mass graves, even the number of Israelis killed by Hamas fighters. Fiction."
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: OzPar
Date: Wed 8 Nov 10:28
Correct. And my view has not changed.
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Topic Originator: buffy
Date: Wed 8 Nov 11:24
I’m sorry SIF but I’ve asked admin to remove your links. Please don’t post links to harmful content.
This isn’t the place to do it - I don’t think there is anywhere one can or should - and it’s not to deflect from what’s happening in Israel and Gaza.
”Buffy’s Buns are the finest in Fife”, J. Spence 2019”
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Topic Originator: sadindiefreak
Date: Wed 8 Nov 11:29
Quote:
buffy, Wed 8 Nov 11:24
I’m sorry SIF but I’ve asked admin to remove your links. Please don’t post links to harmful content.
This isn’t the place to do it - I don’t think there is anywhere one can or should - and it’s not to deflect from what’s happening in Israel and Gaza.
Someone is denying these atrocities happened and I`ve provided evidence they have.
Nobody needs to click these links.
The first link is the only one that has photos and video.
I will remove the click ability of that link incase Someone accidentally opens it but censorship to provide support for a terrorist organisations propaganda is not on.
Edit - See they have already been deleted. This is an absolute disgrace.
Lies about a savage massacre of innocent people are posted here and evidence they are lies gets deleted.
Post Edited (Wed 08 Nov 11:32)
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Topic Originator: brian
Date: Wed 8 Nov 11:41
The BBC has a whole verification department.
It`s fair not to provide the links from here please 😁
Not saying the links are true or false.
Post Edited (Wed 08 Nov 11:45)
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Topic Originator: sadindiefreak
Date: Wed 8 Nov 11:55
Quote:
brian, Wed 8 Nov 11:41
The BBC has a whole verification department.
It`s fair not to provide the links from here please 😁
Not saying the links are true or false.
Delete the links Oz posted as well then. Otherwise its censorship supporting a terrorist organisation.
If your rules are only verified by BBC links then it should be same across the board.
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Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Wed 8 Nov 12:15
It`s not about the perspective of the links though SIF, it`s about the content.
It is not unreasonable to ask that you verify the veracity of the claims without showing graphic. images of beheaded children; nobody wants or needs to see that on a Wednesday lunchtime.
We also don`t want to see graphic images of charred children`s corpses lying in Gazan rubble.
The enemy travels by private jet, not by dinghy.
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Wed 8 Nov 12:31
Yeah it is all about the content SIF. Like I said earlier, those are images I don`t need to see and it`s not about burying my head in the sand. The reports of the atrocities have been well documented by respected journalists now so I`m sadly accepting that they happened.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: sadindiefreak
Date: Wed 8 Nov 12:41
Quote:
Wotsit, Wed 8 Nov 12:15
It`s not about the perspective of the links though SIF, it`s about the content.
It is not unreasonable to ask that you verify the veracity of the claims without showing graphic. images of beheaded children; nobody wants or needs to see that on a Wednesday lunchtime.
We also don`t want to see graphic images of charred children`s corpses lying in Gazan rubble.
So how do you verify beheaded children without actual footage?
The word of people who were on the scene was clearly not enough for Ozpar, the Canary or the socialist worker.
For 43 years I`ve supported the Palestinian cause, been on demonstrations, donated, etc.
That ended on 7th October.
I have no idea what the solution is, I don`t know what an appropriate response to 7th October would have been. Not one supporter of Palestine has been able to answer that question when I`ve asked.
What I do know is Hamas must never be in a position to do this again. How that is achieved I don`t know.
For as long as I can remember Israel have used a sledgehammer to crack a nut which was why I backed Palestine. Every single innocent life lost here is a tragedy. Maybe to get rid of Hamas a sledgehammer is what`s needed this time. Or maybe it will make things even worse.
I`ve never before taken the time to look at this from an Israeli perspective and what an eye opener it`s been.
For years I used the massacre of Janin as an example of Israels evil, only to find out this month that there was no massacre of civilians, 5 died the rest were terrorists killed in fighting. At the time Palestinian authorities claimed 800 civilians had been bulldozed in their homes.
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Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Wed 8 Nov 13:21
It is a football forum with children and folk with, for example, PTSD using it.
You shouldn`t require any more reason than that to understand why it isn`t reasonable to post those images here, even if that means you not being able to make your point as clearly as you would like.
The enemy travels by private jet, not by dinghy.
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Topic Originator: sadindiefreak
Date: Wed 8 Nov 13:44
Quote:
Wotsit, Wed 8 Nov 13:21
It is a football forum with children and folk with, for example, PTSD using it.
You shouldn`t require any more reason than that to understand why it isn`t reasonable to post those images here, even if that means you not being able to make your point as clearly as you would like.
Having given it due consideration, I agree.
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Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Wed 8 Nov 13:56
Thanks mate, appreciated.
The enemy travels by private jet, not by dinghy.
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Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Wed 8 Nov 16:16
So, hold on…you’ve backed Palestine for years, but that ended instantly when Hamas, a terror group within Palestine, committed atrocities…what about the millions of innocent Palestinians caught in the middle?
Have you now stopped backing them because of the atrocities of a terror group from that area? Or can you accept that, the Hamas attack was awful and a clear terror attack, but the Israeli response equals that with the clear evidence of war crimes being committed daily?
ETA the fact you couldn’t grasp why it is abhorrent to put links to images of beheaded children on a football forum is mind boggling
Post Edited (Wed 08 Nov 16:17)
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Topic Originator: brian
Date: Wed 8 Nov 17:04
I`m not wanting to take sides here either. but you have to be careful what is being posted on this forum.
there are some things being posted (as well as adverts for example) that need to be looked at to try and get a balance.
the whole situation in Israel/Gaza is out of hand and needs to be halted now, to try and help the people on both sides.
Hammas made the mistake in first place.
The situation in Ukraine is also alongside the terrible conflicts.
I would have though that this world should really be better place by now and that such conflicts would not happen.
____________________
contact: email me
File Share: https://share2.co.uk
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Wed 8 Nov 17:09
I think there`s a lot of confusion between Jews, Israel and the IDF, and Muslims, Palestine and Hamas.
These things all seem to get used interchangeably.
As has been mentioned, history is written by the victors. I`m not doubting the atrocities that have happened on both sides, but I doubt all of it is being accurately reported. The only viable solution is for both sides to stop it and agree to a ceasefire. Our government should NOT be taking sides right now. It should be encouraging a stop to the violence.
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Topic Originator: Tad Allagash
Date: Wed 8 Nov 18:04
SIF did say ‘viewer discretion is advised’ to be fair. It was a pretty clear trigger warning.
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Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Wed 8 Nov 22:16
Quote:
Tad Allagash, Wed 8 Nov 18:04
SIF did say ‘viewer discretion is advised’ to be fair. It was a pretty clear trigger warning.
Is that the defence? Really? Come on 🤦🏻♂️
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Topic Originator: donj
Date: Wed 8 Nov 23:02
The way the Palestine people have been treated for years caused the Hamas group who have never been elected since I think 2007.Most Israeli and Palestine people would get on fine together but the right wing seems to be destroying politics in this world.
Netenyahu is not exactly popular with his electorate but he seems to think a wee bit of genocide might improve his popularity.
People do not like wars and they just want to live and enjoy the life they have.I have spoken and got on well with people of every colour,religion,country as we were enjoying life as we can.
This right wing or as I suspect fascist system is taking over from the sensible governments all over the world with no respect for peoples lives as we all should have.We all get a life and I want all to enjoy what they get not get bombed and killed as some group that they have no control of attacks Israel.
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Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Fri 17 Nov 11:16
Israel president on CBS last night admitting they had not been successful in minimising civilians deaths in Gaza but has blamed Hamas for that…..at least Western powers are slowly starting to realise the genocide happening in Gaza and condemning it.
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Topic Originator: DBP
Date: Fri 17 Nov 13:01
Have they not killed something like 12,000 civilians in the last three or four weeks alone!
Even if they had got a good few Hamas fighters, I can’t think of many other recent wars where the death toll got that high, that quickly
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Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Fri 17 Nov 15:16
Thats just the confirmed deaths DBP - the actual number of bodies under the rubble will be at least 3x that…
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Topic Originator: Bandy
Date: Fri 17 Nov 15:59
worth pointing out that that`s deaths confirmed by Hamas who are incentivised to inflate the figures..they might not be inflating them...but they could be
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Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Fri 17 Nov 16:14
Correct, but since the IDF wont allow any foreign journalists to enter Gaza, its pretty hard to get a verified figure. I dont think 12,000 will be far off the mark given the destruction caused by Israeli strikes so far.
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Fri 17 Nov 20:57
There are foreign journalists in Gaza- check out Al Jazeera. But a number have been killed, over 30 was the total a few weeks back. I don`t have access to recent figures.
Then ask the question: how many Guardian reporters have been killed in the last few years for their fearless reporting? BBC? CNN?
sammer
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Topic Originator: Parboiled
Date: Tue 21 Nov 15:11
The World holds its breath as Holyrood debates a ceasefire. This could be a turning point…
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Tue 21 Nov 17:48
Can`t Westminster pass a law stating there is a ceasefire in the Middle East and that will be it sorted?
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Topic Originator: Andrew283
Date: Tue 21 Nov 17:53
Quote:
Parboiled, Tue 21 Nov 15:11
The World holds its breath as Holyrood debates a ceasefire. This could be a turning point…
Imagine being that smarmy when people are trying anything to stop a genocide, you utter smear test
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Tue 21 Nov 19:08
The vote for a ceasefire might mean a great deal to the people in Gaza who will become aware of it. A besieged people can take strength when they know their plight is not being ignored.
Nelson Mandela, languishing on Robben Island, remembered the fury of prison warders when the 1969 South African rugby tour of Great Britain was plagued by anti-apartheid disruption. He later said how encouraged his fellow prisoners had been to hear of this.
And when Leningrad was under siege from 1941-44, the people of Leningrad were heartened to receive a book of signatures from supporters based in Airdrie and Coatbridge. No one can be certain how the book made it through the blockade but an illustrated Russian album was sent back later in appreciation, even as Leningrad people were perishing in the streets. The album can be viewed in the Mitchell Library.
A woman who taught Modern Studies told me her pupils once sent out a questionnaire to prisoners at Saughton jail as part of some project on the penal system. They got a good response and one of the prisoners, after dutifully answering all of the questions, had written ‘Thanks’ at the bottom.
sammer
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Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Tue 21 Nov 19:44
Quote:
Parboiled, Tue 21 Nov 15:11
The World holds its breath as Holyrood debates a ceasefire. This could be a turning point…
People have been black carded for less…can admin please deal with this cretin who is now trying to point score using genocide as his racket?
Good to see there may be some movement on hostages/breaks in bombings, but I feel this is going to be the IDFs final plan - allow the hostages out, then flatten the remainder of Gaza and claim its in the name of ending terror. They already couldn’t care less about killing civilians and children, so why would getting back hostages change their stance?
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Topic Originator: Mr Mac
Date: Tue 21 Nov 20:48
Quote:
Andrew283, Tue 21 Nov 17:53
Quote:
Parboiled, Tue 21 Nov 15:11
The World holds its breath as Holyrood debates a ceasefire. This could be a turning point…
Imagine being that smarmy when people are trying anything to stop a genocide, you utter smear test
Now, now Andrew. Smear tests are useful...
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Topic Originator: Andrew283
Date: Tue 21 Nov 23:36
Quote:
Mr Mac, Tue 21 Nov 20:48
Quote:
Andrew283, Tue 21 Nov 17:53
Quote:
Parboiled, Tue 21 Nov 15:11
The World holds its breath as Holyrood debates a ceasefire. This could be a turning point…
Imagine being that smarmy when people are trying anything to stop a genocide, you utter smear test
Now, now Andrew. Smear tests are useful...
My mistake, you`re absolutely correct
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Wed 22 Nov 02:18
I recommend `From Beirut to Jerusalem`, a book by Ang Swee Chai, a Malaysian surgeon who witnessed the massacres of Palestinians when Israel invaded Lebanon in the 1980s. (The PLO had gone from the Palestinian refugee camps, but the remaining refugees were murdered anyway.) You can get the book for a few quid on the net.
The atrocities against civilians were just the same then as now in Gaza, and I`m forced to conclude that the Israeli government AND Hamas have a similar view of civilians, as being worthy of absolutely no consideration, when they are pursuing their causes.
I think undoubtedly the Israeli govt looks on Palestinians as enemies of the Jewish (Old Testament) God. They look on Palestinians as descendents of Philistines, and that connection is thoroughly alive in the minds of people such as Netanyahu.
You must bear in mind that to some Jews the Bible is not a book that they dip into now and again - I think it`s fair to say that - since they believe themselves to be their God`s chosen people - many are fanatical and keep alive lots of ancient ideas that are included in the Old Testament. We`re not just talking medieval mindsets here; with Judaism, some of the ideas and beliefs are thousands of years old.
It stands to reason there were no civil rights or human rights when the Old Testament or, probably, any other Holy book was written, so there`s attitudes in them that are not appropriate to the modern world.
Post Edited (Wed 22 Nov 03:23)
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Topic Originator: Parboiled
Date: Wed 22 Nov 10:12
The waste of spacers in Holyrood have zilch influence on this situation. Nobody outside the pretendy wee Parliament is listening, nobody cares.
Hamza, his fellow lying IPad side kick, and the rest of the thickos who sit behind them should stick to the day job of making a mess of everything they touch and leave diplomacy to proper governments.
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Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert
Date: Wed 22 Nov 10:22
Quote:
Parboiled, Wed 22 Nov 10:12
The waste of spacers in Holyrood have zilch influence on this situation. Nobody outside the pretendy wee Parliament is listening, nobody cares.
Hamza, his fellow lying IPad side kick, and the rest of the thickos who sit behind them should stick to the day job of making a mess of everything they touch and leave diplomacy to proper governments.
🎣🎣🎣
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Topic Originator: da_no_1
Date: Wed 22 Nov 10:26
I`m no lover of the SNP but man alive folk need to stop going on about this iPad thing. There are far more important issues going on in the world.
"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
Post Edited (Wed 22 Nov 10:26)
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Wed 22 Nov 11:24
Not to Parboiled there aren`t. He`s obsessed with a `pretendy wee Parliament`, which must be a bit of a contradiction.
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Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert
Date: Wed 22 Nov 11:52
It`s unusual for the Tories in Holyrood to vote against the ceasefire!
Utter scum!😲🤬🤬🤬
DRoss must be thinking about what he can do with all the money he got for "levelling up"
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Topic Originator: Andrew283
Date: Wed 22 Nov 12:49
Quote:
Parboiled, Wed 22 Nov 10:12
The waste of spacers in Holyrood have zilch influence on this situation. Nobody outside the pretendy wee Parliament is listening, nobody cares.
Hamza, his fellow lying IPad side kick, and the rest of the thickos who sit behind them should stick to the day job of making a mess of everything they touch and leave diplomacy to proper governments.
Christ, what a waste of oxygen you are.
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Topic Originator: back oh the net
Date: Wed 22 Nov 12:51
Quote:
Parboiled, Wed 22 Nov 10:12
The waste of spacers in Holyrood have zilch influence on this situation. Nobody outside the pretendy wee Parliament is listening, nobody cares.
Hamza, his fellow lying IPad side kick, and the rest of the thickos who sit behind them should stick to the day job of making a mess of everything they touch and leave diplomacy to proper governments.
proper governments eh? Like the one at Westminster? The same Westminster government who under the last how many prime minister’s the Home Secretary has been as right wing as they come with the one who has recently been sacked hell bent on having a pro Palestinian march banned and this wee gem homelessness is a lifestyle choice aye try telling that to the hundreds of gulf war vets who are homeless
Come on ye pars ⚽️
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Wed 22 Nov 13:34
‘’I think undoubtedly the Israeli govt looks on Palestinians as enemies of the Jewish (Old Testament) God. They look on Palestinians as descendents of Philistines, and that connection is thoroughly alive in the minds of people such as Netanyahu.’’
I think that’s true, in fact the evidence is there in front of our eyes. Netanyahu referred to ‘Amalek’ in a speech last week whilst calling Hamas ‘medieval.’ It’s not clear whether his objection to ‘medieval’ is because it is a mindset too old, or maybe too modern, for his liking.
‘’It stands to reason there were no civil rights or human rights when the Old Testament or, probably, any other Holy book was written, so there`s attitudes in them that are not appropriate to the modern world.’’
There’s no reason to think there were any fewer civil or human rights. The modern world will be no less or more civilised than what went before; the biggest difference is our capacity through scientific development to murder on a scale unimaginable back in earlier times.
The word ‘Neanderthal’ is often used on this site as a pejorative term but there is no evidence that our cousins were any less civilised than ourselves. We wouldn’t have survived easily in Europe without their help, just as the Europeans who colonised America would have struggled without the assistance of the ‘savage’ Native American Indians.
sammer
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Wed 22 Nov 21:35
Ref: onandupthepars, Wed 22 Nov 02:18
"It stands to reason there were no civil rights or human rights when the Old Testament or, probably, any other Holy book was written, so there`s attitudes in them that are not appropriate to the modern world."
Ref: sammer, Wed 22 Nov 13:34
"There’s no reason to think there were any fewer civil or human rights. The modern world will be no less or more civilised than what went before"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don`t know about that - civilisation`s gone backwards, innit? I wouldn`t even get deported to Australia for stealing a loaf of bread nowadays. Instead of a deserved life sentence in the sun and surf on Bondi beach, they`d probably let me off and arrange a regular delivery of food parcels. Seriously though- you can`t beat a good public flogging, or witch stoning. They never stood for any civil and human rights nonsense in the old days.
Post Edited (Wed 22 Nov 21:37)
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Topic Originator: red-star-par
Date: Wed 22 Nov 21:58
Quote:
Andrew283, Wed 22 Nov 12:49
Quote:
Parboiled, Wed 22 Nov 10:12
The waste of spacers in Holyrood have zilch influence on this situation. Nobody outside the pretendy wee Parliament is listening, nobody cares.
Hamza, his fellow lying IPad side kick, and the rest of the thickos who sit behind them should stick to the day job of making a mess of everything they touch and leave diplomacy to proper governments.
Christ, what a waste of oxygen you are.
Can`t disagree with this at all
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Thu 23 Nov 01:34
Civilisation, as Ghandi said, is a very interesting idea.
Stealing a loaf might sound severe but the law must be upheld. Had you stolen that loaf, or a pair of trainers during the so-called Tottenham riots, then your jail time might have been the same. Except you could serve it in your own country courtesy of His Majesty. Meet your own school chums from the playground. We have plenty prisons now, no need for Australia or prison hulks. We in the UK jail 2x as many people as in the 1960s. Now that`s what I call progress. Lock the buggers up!
There is none so free as a serf. Thank the Lord for freedom from oppression. God save King Charles.
sammer
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Topic Originator: veteraneastender
Date: Thu 23 Nov 13:37
Sadly nobody in the Arab world appears to be over motivated by the plight of Palestinians except for an outward condemnation of Israel, which is always standard mindset anyway.
A relative worked in the Middle East for some years and told me that the rest of the Arabs looked down on Palestinians - although there was no formal caste system (as in India) they were regarded as the lowest in the community.
Not my opinion, just an observation from somebody who spent time there.
Post Edited (Thu 23 Nov 13:39)
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Topic Originator: buffy
Date: Thu 23 Nov 19:13
Any chance admin could move this and the other political thread to the Politics forum please?
”Buffy’s Buns are the finest in Fife”, J. Spence 2019”
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Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Thu 23 Nov 19:17
Quote:
buffy, Thu 23 Nov 19:13
Any chance admin could move this and the other political thread to the Politics forum please?
I dont actually feel like this is a political thread tbh. Id say its a world news story that needs highlighted
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Thu 23 Nov 21:15
Quote:
Dave_1885, Thu 23 Nov 19:17
Quote:
buffy, Thu 23 Nov 19:13
Any chance admin could move this and the other political thread to the Politics forum please?
I dont actually feel like this is a political thread tbh. Id say its a world news story that needs highlighted
I heard a senior Palestinian politician on SKY news - didn`t catch his name - claim that Jews have a label for everyone. A Jew who feels compassion for Palestinian civilians is allegedly "a self-hating Jew."
Wow!
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Thu 23 Nov 22:18
I think the usual term is slightly stronger: `self-loathing Jew.`
There were around 400 Jewish American people arrested a couple of weeks ago at New York`s main railway station for protesting against Israeli military action inside Gaza.
sammer
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Thu 23 Nov 22:48
I was thinking about what humanity`s main problem - the inability to peacefully co-exist - boils down to: lack of empathy?
Most of us, I think, can empathise with our own family, but not so many go beyond that. Certainly it seems those who can fully empathise with people from other countries are a minority. Hamas don`t empathise with Israelis, and many Israelis have no empathy - not just for Hamas - but none also for the people they equate them to, i.e. Palestinians. It`s incredible that modern people are so backward-thinking. But what can be done about it?
I think empathy pretty much = compassion = love, of a certain kind (there are lots of different kinds of love) - I`d say Netanyahu, and members of Hamas, all experience it for their own families, and maybe even for many people of their own flag. Why does it stop there? The flag, the country, the tribe, the race etc.
What is it that prevents the empathy people have for their own families from spreading out further, even to everyone else?
`Why Israel hates the Palestinians so much` by M. Bishara, political analyst at Al Jazeera:
Can`t swear to have got this 100% right, but basically I think he says they hate them because a) Palestinians are integral to the history, geography and nature of the landscape. (Quote:)"Israel has long resorted to theology and mythology to justify its existence, when the Palestinians need no such justification; belonging...so naturally." b) they are exceeedingly brave and won`t give up the land, no matter what is done to them; c) By 2050, there could be more Palestinians than Israelis, (which he describes as a threat to Israel`s existence - I don`t know why that should be - there are other places where a minority race or political group rules?)
https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2022/8/8/why-israel-hates-the-palestinians-so-much
Post Edited (Thu 23 Nov 23:44)
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Thu 23 Nov 23:58
Arabs, Jews and Christians, and a few other religions I guess, seemed to live in reasonable harmony in what we call Israel/Palestine for a few thousand years. I don’t accept that Homo Sapiens is a failed species.
I said ‘reasonable harmony’ because neighbours will always have disputes. But any outsiders are surely obliged to intervene and try to establish some sort of peace. That is what good men do when a fight breaks out in a bar. Bad men, in contrast, back one side in order to promote their own interests on the back of that dispute. This is what we are witnessing in Ukraine and Gaza.
As a species we have the capacity to sink our differences and accept a compromise, albeit through gritted teeth. But that cannot happen when outside agencies are egging on the conflict for their own ends.
sammer
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Topic Originator: parsfan
Date: Fri 24 Nov 10:26
Quote:
sammer, Thu 23 Nov 23:58
Arabs, Jews and Christians, and a few other religions I guess, seemed to live in reasonable harmony in what we call Israel/Palestine for a few thousand years. I don’t accept that Homo Sapiens is a failed species.
I said ‘reasonable harmony’ because neighbours will always have disputes. But any outsiders are surely obliged to intervene and try to establish some sort of peace. That is what good men do when a fight breaks out in a bar. Bad men, in contrast, back one side in order to promote their own interests on the back of that dispute. This is what we are witnessing in Ukraine and Gaza.
As a species we have the capacity to sink our differences and accept a compromise, albeit through gritted teeth. But that cannot happen when outside agencies are egging on the conflict for their own ends.
Like Russia sending troops into The Donbas in 2014?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The universe is ruled by chance and indifference
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Fri 24 Nov 13:03
I`d suggest it`s not strictly for religious reasons but more cultural ones. Of course, these cultural differences often stem from religious belief, but also from just how different people live their lives.
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Topic Originator: red-star-par
Date: Fri 24 Nov 15:24
Quite a good post there from Sammer.
I have travelled all over the shop and spoke to people from many different backgrounds, religions, ethnic groups. The overwhelming majority of them just want to live peacefully and don`t wish to wage war on another group if it can be helped.
The problem is really governments. There is no profit in peace, so the leaders of the world are constantly trying to create issues, create division, stoke up trouble, have people living in fear.
The US in particular have ruined so many countries, waging war by proxy. We have seen them at it again, cajoling Ukraine, and now it seems they have become bored and left them to get on with it, preferring instead to use Israel to poke a stick at the Arab world
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Fri 24 Nov 17:15
Today, Hamas has released 24 hostages; 13 Israelis, 10 Thais and 1 Philippino.
In exchange, Israel has released 39 women and children!
What were these women and children doing in Israeli prisons? Are we expected to believe they are terrorists?
Not your average Sunday League player.
Post Edited (Fri 24 Nov 17:26)
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Fri 24 Nov 17:29
Ref: sammer Thu 23 Nov 23:58
"neighbours will always have disputes. But any outsiders are surely obliged to intervene and try to establish some sort of peace. That is what good men do when a fight breaks out in a bar. Bad men, in contrast, back one side in order to promote their own interests on the back of that dispute. This is what we are witnessing in Ukraine and Gaza."
"As a species we have the capacity to sink our differences and accept a compromise, albeit through gritted teeth. But that cannot happen when outside agencies are egging on the conflict for their own ends."
ref: red-star-par Fri 24 Nov 15:24, responding to sammer`s:
"Quite a good post"
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You are jokin` yeh? Who d`you think are the "bad men" and who is by far the biggest outside agency in Ukraine? (Bearing in mind it invaded and is occupying part of the country.)
Ukraine: the story so far, according to sammer the bammer
The good guys – Russia – mobilized their army and being good guys, were "obliged" (re sammer) "to intervene" in Ukraine on a peace mission.
The bad guys – Ukrainians – keep aggressively putting their bodies in the way of “peace bullets” and “peace missiles” etc., the traditional Russian signs of peace and friendship.
The bad Ukrainians only needed to give up their land and surrender to the good Russians and there would have been peace.
The Ukrainians are so bad, they even built homes, towns and cities, exactly where Russian “peace missiles” were likely to land.
All Russia has tried to do was to sincerely extend the hand of friendship and peace, and Ukraine and the West have been hostile and nasty in return.
And yet, Russia will not give way to such bad people. She continues to selflessly send them even more of her “peace missiles”, whether they are appreciated or not.
Another typical bammer
Post Edited (Fri 24 Nov 18:01)
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Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Fri 24 Nov 17:54
Quote:
GG Riva, Fri 24 Nov 17:15
Today, Hamas has released 24 hostages; 13 Israelis, 10 Thais and 1 Philippino.
In exchange, Israel has released 39 women and children!
What were these women and children doing in Israeli prisons? Are we expected to believe they are terrorists?
Children equates to up to 18 years old I believe - could have been in prison for a number of reasons, remember a lot of the defiance is shown by youths throwing rocks at soldiers…the good thing is there has been a pause in fighting and hostages have been released.
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Topic Originator: parsfan
Date: Sat 25 Nov 00:27
That`s the not-a-ceasefire started.
What are Sunak, Starmer and all the others opposed to a ceasefire thinking now?
Will they be looking forward to the bombing resuming? Counting down the hours until the slaughter starts again?
I`m looking forward to some of them being put on the spot this weekend.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The universe is ruled by chance and indifference
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Sat 25 Nov 14:38
It seems to me that OAUTP thinks that the Russian invasion of 22nd February and the Hamas incursion of 7th October came out of a clear blue sky. They were both responses to political failure in respect of treaties designed to keep the peace.
The Minsk Accords were signed in order to settle the dispute inside the Donbas region, but we now know that the Ukrainian leadership which signed them- as well as its ‘guarantors’ France and Germany- had no attention of honouring them. Similarly the Palestinians have had UN resolutions passed in their favour since 1967 and more recently signed the Oslo Accords, but again it appears there is no goodwill on the other side to implement these.
The most acceptable answer to these two conflicts has already been established and signed up to, but neither has been enacted. And that political failure to comply with an agreed legal remedy does not lie solely at the door of the combatants.
sammer
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Sat 25 Nov 21:52
Ref: sammer Sat 25 Nov 14:38
"Political failures." But by who? Sammer-bot would have us believe the political failures were all on the side of the West. Well, how much did the Minsk Accords mean to Putin? Diddly squat.
Queer how the response of Russia was the ultimate violence: just go straight to the worst possible scenario: all out war. Likewise Israel, in response to Hamas - all out war on Palestinians. Shows how much peace means to the "combatants."
And at whose "door" do the political failures lie, if not the initiators of terror and war, (Russia, Hamas and Israel) who completely give up on peace?
Post Edited (Sat 25 Nov 21:55)
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Sat 25 Nov 22:29
```And at whose "door" do the political failures lie, if not the initiators of terror and war, (Russia, Hamas and Israel) who completely give up on peace?```
Notice the omission of Ukraine, whose government was shelling Donbas from 2914 from any blame. 15,000 died as a result that. When Ukriane got back more than they bargained for, they pleaded to the West for help. In the name of sovereignty as I understand. Notice also OAUTP`s understanding of the failure to acknowledge the attempts at peace in both of these conflicts. Has OUATP ever heard of the Oslo Accords far less the Minsk Accords? He`s a NATO man, same as HJ I suspect.
Anyone who uses the word `terror` is an idiot. All governments work on the basis of terror: what they object to is a rival `terror.` It may be astonishing to OUATP, and perhaps flattering, but the greatest threat to his government is actually him.
Not some foreign power. If he is too weak to exert his democratic accountability then I am as helpless myself. But we need to keep the pressure on. .
sammer
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Topic Originator: veteraneastender
Date: Sun 26 Nov 08:45
GG - female suicide bombers have perpetrated attacks inside Israel.
Terrorism is not reserved for men.
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Sun 26 Nov 09:08
Quote:
veteraneastender, Sun 26 Nov 08:45
GG - female suicide bombers have perpetrated attacks inside Israel.
Terrorism is not reserved for men.
Indeed, VEE, but presumably, these women are not part of the prison population?
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: veteraneastender
Date: Sun 26 Nov 12:32
Hamas have used female suicide bombers in the past and the Israeli security agencies have thwarted a few attacks, presumably these are the women being held in prison ?
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Sun 26 Nov 16:20
Quote:
veteraneastender, Sun 26 Nov 12:32
Hamas have used female suicide bombers in the past and the Israeli security agencies have thwarted a few attacks, presumably these are the women being held in prison ?
Yea, I was just being a smartass. 🙄
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Mon 27 Nov 01:06
Ref: sammer, Sat 25 Nov 22:29
[quoting onandup:]
"And at whose "door" do the political failures lie, if not the initiators of terror and war, (Russia, Hamas and Israel) who completely give up on peace?"
[Sammer:]
“Notice the omission of Ukraine, whose government was shelling Donbas from 2914 [2014] from any blame. 15,000 died as a result [of] that.”
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I made a couple of wee corrections for sammer there. I guess he was in such a hurry to blurt out his piece that he accidentally predicted a conflict 900 years in advance.
I`m so glad he noticed that I left Ukraine out of my list of initiators of terror and war - since the other three (Russia, Hamas and Israel) qualify, but Ukraine does not - neither did Ukraine initiate the conflict in the Donbas in 2014. Russia again takes the plaudits there.
Of course he didn`t mean to mislead anyone into thinking that Ukraine caused 15,000 deaths, just that was the total on all sides.
The rest of his blurt is an attempt at persuasion and character assassination – but it`s so ineffective in its aims – that it has the opposite effect to what`s intended. It’s such a good example of sammer’s version of English – what I’d call bumbling Trumpism – that I think it’s worth repeating:
"When Ukriane [Ukraine] got back more than they bargained for, they pleaded to the West for help. In the name of sovereignty as I understand. Notice also OAUTP`s understanding of the failure to acknowledge the attempts at peace in both of these conflicts. Has OUATP ever heard of the Oslo Accords far less the Minsk Accords? He`s a NATO man, same as HJ I suspect.
Anyone who uses the word `terror` is an idiot. All governments work on the basis of terror: what they object to is a rival `terror.` It may be astonishing to OUATP, and perhaps flattering, but the greatest threat to his government is actually him.
Not some foreign power. If he is too weak to exert his democratic accountability then I am as helpless myself. But we need to keep the pressure on."
Post Edited (Mon 27 Nov 01:36)
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Mon 27 Nov 11:41
Ref: veteraneastender Sun 26 Nov 12:32
"Hamas have used female suicide bombers in the past and the Israeli security agencies have thwarted a few attacks, presumably these are the women being held in prison ?"
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Presumably Israel would never imprison a Palestinian for anything less than a suicide bomb attempt, and Israel would presumably be completely fair and unprejudiced towards Palestinians?
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/israels-apartheid-against-palestinians-a-cruel-system-of-domination-and-a-crime-against-humanity/
"The unlawful killing of Palestinian protestors is perhaps the clearest illustration of how Israeli authorities use proscribed acts to maintain the status quo. In 2018, Palestinians in Gaza began to hold weekly protests along the border with Israel, calling for the right of return for refugees and an end to the blockade. Before protests even began, senior Israeli officials warned that Palestinians approaching the wall would be shot. By the end of 2019, Israeli forces had killed 214 civilians, including 46 children."
Well there you have it - Israel has the right to defend itself: presumably the children were a major security threat, so they were shot dead in defence of Israel. And naturally, any Palestinian in an Israeli jail must - presumably - have been an attempted suicide bomber.
Post Edited (Mon 27 Nov 11:50)
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Topic Originator: veteraneastender
Date: Mon 27 Nov 14:29
I have no idea why ALL women Palestinian prisoners are held in Israeli jails.
GG asked why there were ANY at all.
Post Edited (Mon 27 Nov 14:51)
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Mon 27 Nov 16:55
Ref: veteraneastender Sun 26 Nov 12:32
"Hamas have used female suicide bombers in the past and the Israeli security agencies have thwarted a few attacks, presumably these are THE WOMEN being held in prison ?" [my capital letters]
Ref: veteraneastender, Mon 27 Nov 14:29
"I have no idea why ALL women Palestinian prisoners are held in Israeli jails.
GG asked why there were ANY at all."
------------------------------------------------------
OK you are claiming innocence. Let`s see.
"Presumably" means almost the same as "I assume." Agreed?
GG Riva referred to "39 women and children." (Ref: Fri 24 Nov 17:15)
And you know that, if you meant only some of those women you would have to have said SOME of those women. Agreed?
Why is it that, as you give no numbers, dates or sources, and your explanation therefore might account for only a tiny minority of the women held in Israeli prisons*, you posted a statement that implies (whether intended or not) that all of them were suicide bombers who happened to have survived?
Maybe your 26 Nov statement was a clumsy mistake?
Would you agree that Palestinians could do without being shat on and all tarred with the same brush?
*(or none at all, if e.g. they`ve all been executed)
Post Edited (Mon 27 Nov 17:18)
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Mon 27 Nov 17:07
From an article by Al Jazeera, 24 Nov 2023: [before the first releases were made]
"The Israeli Ministry of Justice presented a list of 300 Palestinian prisoners who it is considering for release."
"The list of 300 comprises 33 women. The majority of the rest of the names are of boys aged 16-18. However, there are also boys as young as 14 on the list."
"Most of the prisoners on the list were arrested between 2021 and 2023. The prisoners arrested in 2023 were taken before October 7."
"WHY ARE THEY IN PRISON?
Many...prisoners have been convicted of crimes including carrying and manufacturing knives and daggers. Other common offences detailed in Israel’s list include:
threatening security
illegally entering Israel without a permit
throwing stones
supporting terrorism
associating with hostile/unknown organisations."
“The main alleged crime for these detentions is stone-throwing, which can carry a 20-year sentence in prison for Palestinian children,” said a report published in July by children’s rights organisation, Save the Children."
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/24/who-were-the-palestinian-prisoners-israel-released-on-friday
Post Edited (Mon 27 Nov 17:20)
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Topic Originator: veteraneastender
Date: Mon 27 Nov 17:36
I have no idea, on a case by case basis, as to why Israel has imprisoned all the female Palestinians that they have incarcerated.........except that SOME have commited violent crimes that merit being imprisoned.
Hopefully clear enough now?
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Mon 27 Nov 17:53
Ref: veteraneastender Sun 26 Nov 12:32
"Hamas have used female suicide bombers in the past and the Israeli security agencies have thwarted a few attacks, presumably THESE ARE THE WOMEN being held in prison ?" [my capitals]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Compare that original with this:
Hamas have used female suicide bombers in the past and the Israeli security agencies have thwarted a few attacks, presumably THESE WOMEN ARE being held in prison ?
That`s what VEE is suggesting he meant, i.e. something quite different.
Now, VEE`s Nov 26 statement doesn`t say that. Will he admit it, or is he happy to leave it to mean perversely that all women in Israeli prisons are suicide bombers who survived?
Post Edited (Mon 27 Nov 18:47)
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Topic Originator: veteraneastender
Date: Mon 27 Nov 18:21
Eh ?
I`m totally lost where this is going, or has gone.
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Mon 27 Nov 20:23
Ref: veteraneastender Sun 26 Nov 12:32
"Hamas have used female suicide bombers in the past and the Israeli security agencies have thwarted a few attacks, presumably these are THE WOMEN being held in prison ?"
Ref: veteraneastender, Mon 27 Nov 17:36
"I have no idea, on a case by case basis, as to why Israel has imprisoned all the female Palestinians that they have [imprisoned].........except that SOME have commited violent crimes that merit being imprisoned."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Funny that.
The first statement is [all of] the women.
The second is some of the women.
The first statement labels, as suicide bombers, all the women GG referred to.
VEE seems to have seen that, because he made the distinction.
If I hadn`t pulled him up he`d have gotten away with his stereotyping of Palestinian women. I think it was accidental, but it`s very strange that he doesn`t want to admit to the mistake, and that he hasn`t got a clue how many of those women in Israeli prisons did anything at all that would justify locking them up.
As I posted earlier from Amnesty International:
" Israeli officials warned that Palestinians approaching the wall would be shot. By the end of 2019, Israeli forces had killed 214 civilians, including 46 children."
Also, from Al Jazeera:common offences detailed in Israel’s list include:
threatening security
illegally entering Israel without a permit
throwing stones
“The main alleged crime for these detentions is stone-throwing, which can carry a 20-year sentence in prison for Palestinian children,” said a report published in July by children’s rights organisation, Save the Children."
We don`t know right now, but we could just as well characterise the Palestinian women in Israeli jails, as protestors, fist-shakers, stone-throwers, and people without permits rather than anything else.
Post Edited (Mon 27 Nov 20:43)
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Topic Originator: MikeyLeonard
Date: Mon 27 Nov 21:12
Quote:
veteraneastender, Mon 27 Nov 18:21
Eh ?
I`m totally lost where this is going, or has gone.
You`re not the only one VE.
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Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Mon 27 Nov 22:58
Good thing is that hostages have been released over the last 4 days and it looks like the pause in violence has held - just.
2 more days to come as well though, then after that, what?
Israel wont agree to a ceasefire until all “terrorists” are eliminated. I use terrorists loosely there as god knows how many civilians are trapped under the Gazan rubble…it shudders to even consider it to be honest.
Be in no doubt that Hamas are a terror organisation, who need to hand over the remaining hostages and be cleared out, but theres no way theres 2M terrorists in Gaza to be cleared.
Will the Western leaders finally stick up for these innocents caught in the crossfire? Or will they allow thousands more to die to avoid conflict with the Zionists?
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Tue 28 Nov 10:06
A hospital doctor on SKY news said they are caring for many injured children who have lost their families. Some are so young they can`t even tell them their own names.
How incredibly sad is that?
It`s a disgrace that no Western countries are calling for a cessation to this awful war. Even worse, some countries are arming both Israel and Hamas, ensuring it continues....
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Tue 28 Nov 12:59
Ref: veteraneastender, Mon 27 Nov 18:21:
"Eh ?
I`m totally lost where this is going, or has gone."
Ref: MikeyLeonard, Mon 27 Nov 21:12:
"You`re not the only one VE."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Top guys from the Intelligence Bureau.
Post Edited (Tue 28 Nov 13:26)
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Topic Originator: veteraneastender
Date: Tue 28 Nov 13:31
No point in labouring this, apparently opinions differ.
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Tue 28 Nov 13:35
Ref: GG Riva Tue 28 Nov 10:06
"It`s a disgrace that no Western countries are calling for a cessation to this awful war. Even worse, some countries are arming both Israel and Hamas, ensuring it continues...."
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Can you identify "some countries," GG Riva?
According to this article from Sky (Nov 3) - France, Spain, Portugal, Ireland were calling for a ceasefire.
"Ceasefire
A ceasefire would require Israel and Hamas to come to a formal, political agreement to stop fighting.
It would involve the withdrawal of Israeli troops from Gaza and likely a pledge by Hamas to release all its hostages.
A ceasefire would cover the entire geographical area of Israel and the Palestinian territories - and not just a particular zone."
https://news.sky.com/story/israel-hamas-war-which-countries-are-calling-for-a-ceasefire-and-how-is-it-different-to-a-humanitarian-pause-12999373
Post Edited (Tue 28 Nov 13:50)
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Tue 28 Nov 15:04
Quote:
onandupthepars, Tue 28 Nov 13:35
Ref: GG Riva Tue 28 Nov 10:06
"It`s a disgrace that no Western countries are calling for a cessation to this awful war. Even worse, some countries are arming both Israel and Hamas, ensuring it continues...."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Can you identify "some countries," GG Riva?
According to this article from Sky (Nov 3) - France, Spain, Portugal, Ireland were calling for a ceasefire.
"Ceasefire
A ceasefire would require Israel and Hamas to come to a formal, political agreement to stop fighting.
It would involve the withdrawal of Israeli troops from Gaza and likely a pledge by Hamas to release all its hostages.
A ceasefire would cover the entire geographical area of Israel and the Palestinian territories - and not just a particular zone."
https://news.sky.com/story/israel-hamas-war-which-countries-are-calling-for-a-ceasefire-and-how-is-it-different-to-a-humanitarian-pause-12999373
How about the UK and USA, for starters? I feel they should be putting Israel and Hamas under the strongest pressure to stop the mass slaughter. I don`t think Hamas would need much convincing, they`re in a war they can`t win. It`s a total mismatch.
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Tue 28 Nov 18:44
Is it not the case that America is cozy with Israel so as to keep a strategic presence in the Middle East? Seems a straightforward matter of policy, regardless of who`s killing who and how many. In other words, lives don`t matter, what counts is American foreign policy.
What about UK? Appears to be similar, i.e. policy overrides any other consideration. Is it just a matter of keeping in with America.
If so, then, on what basis can UK citizens hope to affect what`s happening? We can appeal that it`s against international Law, against human rights, against the UK`s official religion, against all sense of what it is to be human and humane. But none of those matter, if the UK government`s position, and that of it`s opposition in Parliament is based - as it appears to be - solely on foreign policy.
Its` obvious to us that UK and US should have stopped selling arms to Israel, and should be doing a whole lot to oppose the war in Gaza. Let`s face it, they like to call it the Israel-Hamas war, but it includes everyone in Gaza. Mostly Palestinians.
I don`t think it matters to Netanyahu what the world thinks. Who would he listen to? Not us or America.
The annihilation won`t stop simply by Hamas laying down their arms.They`ve done that before, as I mentioned, in Lebanon in the 1980s, and what followed was total massacre, bombing hospitals etc, just as these days.
Maybe Netanyahu has seen what Russia is getting away with and thinks - yeh, we`ll have some o` that. The rest of the world won`t do much.
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Topic Originator: OzPar
Date: Wed 29 Nov 04:17
Criticising Hamas for the attacks on innocent civilians on October 7 is warranted, but it`s essential to contextualise their presence in Gaza. Hamas is not ISIS by another name; many of the young men in Hamas have spent their entire lives locked inside the cage that is Gaza. Any normal sentient human being should readily understand their motivation.
While armed groups have a right to resist military targets under occupation, targeting civilians is unacceptable. So, any Hamas fighters - or commanders - responsible for war crimes should rightly face legal consequences.
But the world cannot ignore the massive atrocities perpetrated by Israel decade after decade.
International humanitarian law, international human rights law, and international criminal law impose rules everybody must respect. They are not being respected now. In all wars, there are principles of distinction, proportionality, and precaution, you look for lawful means that will spare civilians. But the Israelis are not.
There must be accountability for all perpetrators and redress for all victims. Benjamin Netanyahu, his cabinet, and the leaders of the IDF must appear before the international tribunals facing charges of war crimes. They have gone well beyond the boundaries of acceptable behaviour in war.
The focus must extend beyond Hamas. The attacks on October 7 shouldn`t serve as a pretext for ethnic cleansing in Gaza.
Israel`s true intentions, possibly revealed after the 48-hour deadline passes this week, may indicate a broader agenda beyond seeking vengeance. A calculated series of actions aimed at clearing southern Gaza in much the same way the north has been destroyed would have severe consequences for Palestinians.
But more ominously, Israel would invite intervention from Hezbollah in Lebanon and its sponsor, Iran. And who knows where things go from there?
What is certain is that things will not return to the status quo that existed before October 7. Knowingly or unknowingly, Hamas may well have triggered a series of reactions from the Netanyahu Government that ultimately ends the Zionist dream.
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Topic Originator: Playup_Pompey
Date: Wed 29 Nov 10:09
"What about UK? Appears to be similar, i.e. policy overrides any other consideration. Is it just a matter of keeping in with America."
and you get Rishi telling everyone that Israel "must win this war"
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Topic Originator: OzPar
Date: Fri 18 Oct 09:30
While searching to update the crypto thread, I came across this thread, which has lain dormant for many months. Studying the thread from the early days after the October 7 attack is fascinating, and it is intriguing to see if our views and perspectives on the conflict may have changed from a year ago.
All in all, it is an interesting and quite inciteful read.
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Topic Originator: Paralex
Date: Mon 21 Oct 13:03
Yes, I would agree with that Ozpar, there`s a fair amount of collective wisdom in the above posts. My wife and I spent 3 months in Israel, 10 years ago. For most of that time we were working in the Scottish Edinburgh Medical Mission hospital in Nazareth. Most of the staff in the hospital were Arab/Israeli Christians, who had friends and relatives in the West Bank and Gazza. We heard several stories of their parents and grandparents being ejected from their homes in 1948 by the incoming Jewish settlers, aided by the British Army. There is no doubt that many peaceful Palestinians suffered real loss and hardship at the time, for which they have never been compensated.
I suppose that most Christians throughout the world would have been glad that the Jews were at last beginning to settle in their homeland again but sad at the suffering of the displaced Palestinians. It`s no secret that the Israelis want to take over the whole land that was promised to them in the Old Testament and they have been trying to do that settlement by settlement since 1948. In retrospect, it seems to me that right wingers in the Israeli Parliament have never espoused a two state solution and are not willing to make any deals with Hamas or Hezbollah, if they can possibly get away with it. Every action of aggression by their opponents has been used as an excuse to further their objectives of taking the whole land.
Post Edited (Mon 21 Oct 14:12)
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