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Topic Originator: Alter Ego
Date: Mon 18 Dec 20:36
I’m going to probably get pelters but why do so many people believe in this man in the sky?
How many gods are up there with our Christian god? that people think will look after? Does he share airspace with Allah and the rest of them?
Religion imo is the best money making tax free scheme in the world.
Mon the Pars!
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Topic Originator: Bandy
Date: Mon 18 Dec 21:19
Because I find going to church calming and peaceful. I find it`s the only place where I can be present, focus on the `now` and focus and the things that I should be thankful for like my family, my friends and my health.
Could I find that presence of mind somewhere else? - probably. But given I can find it in a church, why would I bother seeking it elsewhere?
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Topic Originator: Alter Ego
Date: Mon 18 Dec 21:29
You don’t mention the god you are to worship in the Church though Bandy?
I presume you don’t listen to all the preacher banging on about how we will all be saved blah blah?
I just take the dug for a long walk🤷
Mon the Pars!
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Mon 18 Dec 21:40
Religion isn`t an issue, people`s interpretation is.
No matter the religious book, it`s been translated many times and verses will be contradictory and/or misinterpreted.
To me religion simply provides a structure or values to follow.
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Topic Originator: Bandy
Date: Mon 18 Dec 21:49
Well - it`s a Roman Catholic church if you must know.
I listen to the priest, and actually his message frequently changes depending on circumstance. The way he does it is pretty skilful
I try not to think about the `science` of it too much - although as a scientist by profession that can be tricky.
I just focus on whether I feel better or worse after going - and I always feel better after going, so I keep going.
Can`t have a dog due to other circumstances I`m afraid, so I`ll never know if your method would work for me. Each to their own, eh?
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Topic Originator: DBP
Date: Mon 18 Dec 22:26
I think at a ‘micro’ level, bandy has given a really good account of why there’s nothing wrong with religion/church… I’d also add it gets people congregating together, forms a community and often will do good things in that community - all of which is important for anyone
And at an individual level, I guess all the major religions framework/core messages/values would make the world a better place, if we all stuck to them.
You could argue that bandy could get some of those things from other clubs, organisations, work, etc. But not sure you get the same thought provoking or contemplation time if he volunteered at a charity shop or was out walking a dog (well not my dog anyway)
Where I do have an issue with organised religion is probably at the ‘macro’ level, because then you’re introducing things like money, influence and power - because as soon as those things come into the equation, even the most pious from any religion can lose their way
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Fri 22 Dec 07:03
If we`re discussing the possibility of the existence of an omnipowerful Creator of the Universe, there are two groups of people who grind my gears;
1. Those who are hell-bent on convincing me he exists and
2. Those who are hell-bent on convincing me he doesn`t. 🙄
Truthfully, none of us can be 100% certain that God exists or that he is merely a figment of our fertile imagination.
Sometimes, when I watch programmes like Planet Earth and marvel at the beauty of the flora and fauna, I think there must be a Divine Creator.
At other times, I see the horrors of war and famine on my TV screen, or watch relatives and friends being slowly destroyed by cancer and I think there can`t possibly be an all powerful, loving God. He would never allow that.....
Not your average Sunday League player.
Post Edited (Fri 22 Dec 07:03)
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Topic Originator: PARrot
Date: Fri 22 Dec 10:59
Quote:
GG Riva, Fri 22 Dec 07:03
If we`re discussing the possibility of the existence of an omnipowerful Creator of the Universe, there are two groups of people who grind my gears;
1. Those who are hell-bent on convincing me he exists and
2. Those who are hell-bent on convincing me he doesn`t. 🙄
Truthfully, none of us can be 100% certain that God exists or that he is merely a figment of our fertile imagination.
Sometimes, when I watch programmes like Planet Earth and marvel at the beauty of the flora and fauna, I think there must be a Divine Creator.
At other times, I see the horrors of war and famine on my TV screen, or watch relatives and friends being slowly destroyed by cancer and I think there can`t possibly be an all powerful, loving God. He would never allow that.....
It is a strange thing that some of the people most afflicted have a strong faith in God regardless.
Graeme jnr died 4 times in January and suffered brain damage. In a blink he went from teaching martial arts, protecting dignitaries transport and rescuing folk from forest fires in the Yukon to lying in bed unable to speak or move.
9 months later he is walking, talking and just started swimming.
His faith helped him a lot. He loved getting to church and taking communion.
After 6 months he hit a patch where he blamed God and just wanted to die.
He overcame that, with much hard work and prayer and now he is doing well.
He regularly plays this clip..
https://youtu.be/GSr6b76y6tk?si=D97wr2RJZLOUO-dR
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Fri 22 Dec 12:46
God or no God, your son`s recovery has been remarkable. I appreciate it`s been difficult and will continue to be challenging but his progress is phenomenal!
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Fri 22 Dec 14:47
Life can be tough. If believing in a supreme being helps some people get through it, good luck to them, as long as they don`t attempt to force their views on others.
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Fri 22 Dec 16:43
Quote:
wee eck, Fri 22 Dec 14:47
Life can be tough. If believing in a supreme being helps some people get through it, good luck to them, as long as they don`t attempt to force their views on others.
That also goes for people who don`t believe in a "Supreme Being" and mock those who do, which the OP appears to. As far as I`m concerned, folk should be allowed to believe or not believe, as they see fit.
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Fri 22 Dec 17:58
^^^^^^ Exactly this from wee eck and GG .. each to his/her own .. live and let live .. I am not religious but have been to the kirk twice in the last couple of years and will admit I got a certain comfort from it
We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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Topic Originator: PARrot
Date: Fri 22 Dec 18:05
Quote:
Buspasspar, Fri 22 Dec 17:58
^^^^^^ Exactly this from wee eck and GG .. each to his/her own .. live and let live .. I am not religious but have been to the kirk twice in the last couple of years and will admit I got a certain comfort from it
Im not religious. But I believe in God lol.
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Fri 22 Dec 18:44
One time was Kincardine church PARot and it was a service to commemorate the death of my Aunt Sadie .. Music teacher and Sunday school teacher who was knocked off her bike and killed by a drunk army driver who was fined £5 back in the day .. I still have the newspaper cutting
Her friends and colleagues donated a vase back in the 40`s and one of theKincardine church members found it hence the service .. they talked about her life .. also my Gran who was Sadie`s Mum .. who never actually got over her death .. I also met folk who I had never seen for over 65 years .. The minister Alex was superb and the whole congregation I took great comfort from that day
Post Edited (Fri 22 Dec 18:45)
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Sun 24 Dec 22:32
Ref: jake89 Mon 18 Dec 21:40
"Religion isn`t an issue, people`s interpretation is.
No matter the religious book, it`s been translated many times and verses will be contradictory and/or misinterpreted.
To me religion simply provides a structure or values to follow."
--------------------------------------------------------------------
I can`t go along with that. Let`s take the Bible for example. The Holy book of Jews - the Old Testament, that is. There`s Judaism and there`s Christianity, both using the same book. Christianity also has the New Testament, which contains an improved version of God, but Christianity is nevertheless still shackled to the OT with its original ideas of a God who encouraged a lot of killing. I think the idea of a loving God is prevalent in the UK because the teachings of Jesus are promoted, whereas in Israel - Jesus isn`t a saviour, or God. He was a rebel Jew who did not go along with the OT emphasis on violence and power.
"Thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory"
Maybe there`s a clue there. The Lord`s prayer doesn`t say anything about God being loving or merciful.
I don`t think Jews think of God as being primarily a loving one, at least for Jews who have authority and power, I think God represents power and destruction of enemies, not love and mercy.
So I don`t think it`s about interpretation; the Bible - especially as orthodox Jews have it without the New Testament - contains many examples of an unmerciful and unloving God.
Having said that, there is no doubt that religions do some folk a lot of good. But I believe that`s due to the effects on the human mind of feelings of belonging and sharing, and the idea that somebody else is responsible, and as we hear many times, "everything is as it should be." Which is not of course true, but comforting to some.
Post Edited (Sun 24 Dec 22:39)
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Sun 24 Dec 23:06
Re: GG Riva : Fri 22 Dec 07:03
"Sometimes, when I watch programmes like Planet Earth and marvel at the beauty of the flora and fauna, I think there must be a Divine Creator.
At other times, I see the horrors of war and famine on my TV screen, or watch relatives and friends being slowly destroyed by cancer and I think there can`t possibly be an all powerful, loving God. He would never allow that....."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes. In recent years I have come to think it`s a mistake to put those two things together, i.e. Creator, and loving God. It is the Bible isn`t it, that says those two things are part of the same?
What about a creator which is rather mis-represented by the Bible? i.e. leave out the idea of "Divine."
Let`s separate the two ideas: (1) A creator (2) ideas of a loving God.
Is there a creator, based on the evidence of nature and physics? Maybe. I can`t make up my mind, and I don`t think it`s important that I should. It would only be important if I was worried about being "saved" and having eternal life etc. I don`t believe in any of that, so it doesn`t worry me.
Maybe our universe was not the first?
Maybe we could call the creator "nature". (Not to be diminished or confused with only plant life and animal life.) When you look at nature, is it not constantly creative? And beyond the things we can see for ourselves, there are Quasars, stars, planets, atmospheres. Zillions and zillions of things that have been created and are being created: billions of galaxies and things that are almost undetectably small, to others that are light years across.
None of that need have anything to do with a loving God.
Post Edited (Mon 25 Dec 13:44)
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Tue 26 Dec 17:00
Here are some questions for enquiring minds.
Don`t worry - I`m not gonna try and change your beliefs - it`s just my imaginative point of view.
1. Everything, including us, is made of wee stuff - atoms etc and energy?
2. If so, how did it become us? Did:
a) a creator fashion atoms etc. directly into the world, plants, animals and us?
or b) has wee stuff and energy evolved into all those things?
3. Could evolution be a creator`s process?
4. Or could evolution be a self-organising process (e.g. from simple beginnings, such as electrical charge attractions, causing structures to form and interactions to take place?)
5. Where did/does all the "wee stuff" and energy come from?
a) Was/ is it self-generating?
b) Has it always existed?
c) or was/is it made by a creator?
9. Could evolution be thought of as the direct consequence of stuff and energy interacting in zillions of ways, and building increasing complexity?
🙂 ⚽ ☮️ 🍩 A lie down and a free virtual chocolate dough ring to all my readers!
Post Edited (Tue 26 Dec 17:02)
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Topic Originator: PARrot
Date: Tue 26 Dec 19:13
What evolution? Tell me something that has evolved. Not adapted but evolved.
Actually progressed from one species to another and then reproduced.
I could be wrong but I am not aware of anything that has actually evolved or anything that has improved through mutation.
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Tue 26 Dec 20:09
I could be wrong PARot .. usually am .. but is evolution not just an adapting and developing process by all species to overcome certain constraints in their progress and over many years develop gradually to overcoming them
Post Edited (Tue 26 Dec 20:12)
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Topic Originator: PARrot
Date: Tue 26 Dec 21:41
I understand evolution to be the progression of a single cell to becoming everything that is alive today.
When I ask this question people usually talk about how birds beaks etc developed and how dogs have changed.
Yes but that is adapting. Not evolving into a different species.
All things were created according to their kind.
Post Edited (Tue 26 Dec 21:42)
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Tue 26 Dec 22:52
A very basic example of evolution is sat beside me right now - the domestic dog. His ancestors were wolves (and probably something else before that). They diverged into a number of animals including foxes and dogs - two completely different animals with a common ancestor.
The history of the Earth goes back millions of years so the notion of it starting with man is a bit daft, especially given the ability to find evidence of humans and other animals that would pre-date most religious writings.
What I do find interesting is how any life came to be. We`re all here, typing on internet forums, but how did we get here? How can Earth be the only planet in the solar system that appears to have life? Did we once live on another planet, c*ck it up, come here, build the pyramids then somehow regress back?
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Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Wed 27 Dec 01:23
One method for speciation is when two groups of a species are unable to interbreed: for example due to being physically separated because of plate tectonics or changing sea levels.
If the two groups can`t interbreed then they will, over time, develop into different, but closely related, species. They might even be able to interbreed if they met each other again, with varying levels of success depending on the nature of the genetic divergence. For example, homo sapiens and Neanderthals are known to have interbred successfully, whereas horses and donkeys only produce infertile offspring.
Sometimes speciation can even happen relatively quickly when a quickly reproducing species experiences a change of environment which heavily favours certain adaptations.
"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
Post Edited (Wed 27 Dec 01:31)
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Wed 27 Dec 03:05
Parrot,
Evolution isn`t about Darwin`s finches and dogs. There`s a lot to it. There`s evidence for evolution in lots of ways, through studying e.g. anatomy, molecular biology, biogeography, fossils, & direct observation. Evolving from one species to another is called speciation. There are observed examples of it in wild plants. I’m not sure if there is a complete transitional record for an animal. It usually takes a long time for animals to speciate, and animal fossils are rare.
I`m not gonna try and persuade you. We come at it from different places. In growing up, I always questioned religion, I never came to believe in the Biblical God. I did Biology, Zoology, Botany, Physics and Chemistry at school. Evolution made more sense to me, from my early teens. I had friends who were Christians. Maybe like them, you got into it when you were young? And you know it`s just like when me and sammer are arguing about Ukraine - he`s already taken a side and so have I. So as for religion, you and I have taken our sides and all the explanations in the world probably wouldn`t change our views.
Jake, I think the earth is the only planet in our solar system with life because it`s the only one with the conditions that are right for (intelligent) life.
What d`you mean by regressing back after building the pyramids? The Greeks and Romans came after, and there were other great civilizations e.g. in the Middle East, India and China.
As for evolution, I can`t help thinking some people are just offended by the idea that our ancestors may have extremely humble origins. However humble our ancestors have been, I`m quite touched to think of the struggles and lives they`ve lived through, over millions of years and countless generations for us to get here. And it`s not like our great grandparents were amoeba. We`re descended from people for very many generations back, and before that, in remote times, were our very far distant ancestors.
I think also, some people don`t realise the scale of the universe and complexity of living things. That a creator should be anything like a human seems to diminish the whole idea of a creator.
Post Edited (Wed 27 Dec 14:18)
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Wed 27 Dec 12:16
I`m veering into conspiracy territory. Slaves built the pyramids but it still feels like an impossible task. We are the only planet capable of sustaining life as we understand it, who is to say other beings cannot live with thin atmospheres and hot/cold temperatures? Who is to say the other, seemingly barren, planets were always that way? How do we know our ancestors weren`t great space explorers and we`ve ended up here by a miscalculation?
Science can explain many things, but it doesn`t really explain where life came from or how human beings came to be. Religion attempts to explain it but doesn`t do a particularly good job. The notion of a being in the sky making man seems fanciful, but there may be truth in that *something* created this planet and the beings that live on it.
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Wed 27 Dec 12:42
Jings jake I thought Erich Von Daniken had joined the thread :-)
We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Wed 27 Dec 13:25
Ref: jake89 Wed 27 Dec 12:16
"How do we know our ancestors weren`t great space explorers and we`ve ended up here by a miscalculation?"
-----------------------------------------------
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Wed 27 Dec 13:45
Ref Parrot: "All things were created according to their kind"
By "kind", do you mean species? It`s not a trick question, I`m wondering what it means, and if "birds" for example, are a "kind"?
(Note: some mutations are beneficial, some are not. It`s the beneficial ones that occur in reproductive cells that can improve the chances of surviving, reproducing and passing on the change, so I believe.)
Post Edited (Wed 27 Dec 14:15)
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Wed 27 Dec 13:54
Quote:
Buspasspar, Wed 27 Dec 12:42
Jings jake I thought Erich Von Daniken had joined the thread :-)
I`m more Douglas Adams 😂
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Topic Originator: PARrot
Date: Wed 27 Dec 15:54
Quote:
jake89, Wed 27 Dec 13:54
Quote:
Buspasspar, Wed 27 Dec 12:42
Jings jake I thought Erich Von Daniken had joined the thread :-)
I`m more Douglas Adams 😂
Lol. Onandupthepars` post made me think of Douglas Adams.
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Wed 27 Dec 16:12
Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Wed 27 Dec 13:54
Quote:
Buspasspar, Wed 27 Dec 12:42
Jings jake I thought Erich Von Daniken had joined the thread :-)
I`m more Douglas Adams 😂
Made me laugh jake :-o))
We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Wed 27 Dec 16:22
If god truly does exist, why do kids get cancer? Why do wars wipe out thousands of children? Why is there starving children all over the world? Why do we have nonces who pray on children?
Any person that believes in a celestial being that believes these things are acceptable to have in the world and is the lord creator of everything and everyone, is off their rocker imo.
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Topic Originator: moviescot
Date: Wed 27 Dec 17:18
Quote:
jake89, Wed 27 Dec 12:16
I`m veering into conspiracy territory. Slaves built the pyramids but it still feels like an impossible task. We are the only planet capable of sustaining life as we understand it, who is to say other beings cannot live with thin atmospheres and hot/cold temperatures? Who is to say the other, seemingly barren, planets were always that way? How do we know our ancestors weren`t great space explorers and we`ve ended up here by a miscalculation?
Science can explain many things, but it doesn`t really explain where life came from or how human beings came to be. Religion attempts to explain it but doesn`t do a particularly good job. The notion of a being in the sky making man seems fanciful, but there may be truth in that *something* created this planet and the beings that live on it.
According to noted archeologists Mark Lehner and Zahi Hawass, the pyramids were not built by slaves; Hawass`s archeological discoveries in the 1990s in Cairo show the workers were paid laborers, rather than slaves. Rather, it was farmers who built the pyramids during flooding, when they could not work their lands.
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Topic Originator: PARrot
Date: Wed 27 Dec 19:28
Quote:
Dave_1885, Wed 27 Dec 16:22
If god truly does exist, why do kids get cancer? Why do wars wipe out thousands of children? Why is there starving children all over the world? Why do we have nonces who pray on children?
Any person that believes in a celestial being that believes these things are acceptable to have in the world and is the lord creator of everything and everyone, is off their rocker imo.
Why do you blame God for the things men do?
These are difficult questions and there are answers to them, for starters it isn`t acceptable to God. That was just a daft thing to suggest.
As was mentioned before though it is strange that so many afflicted people believe in God and most who have no care in the world don`t.
It isn`t quite right to suggest believing in God is a crutch or an aid to those who suffer to help them get through. Millions of people keep their faith despite their trials.
As I said my child got cancer and died 4 times. It doesn`t matter that he is 40, he is still my child and I see no difference in the suffering when you lose a loved one whatever age they are.
The pain is the same.
I dont think a child is any more afraid than an adult when they stare terror or death in the face.
Jnr survived and is gradually progressing back to full health after suffering massive brain damage.
His faith has strengthened dramatically.
Look at the many people like Eric Liddle. He suffered in a Japanese prison of war camp but never lost his faith. Did he need a crutch.
Have you watched Hacksaw Ridge?
Oh and I was abused by a 16 Yr old when I was 8. It was a single occasion but I thought he was going to kill me. I had that fear.
I don`t blame God for these things. I blame the devil.
If you don`t believe there is a devil, what causes man to do evil things?
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Topic Originator: PARrot
Date: Wed 27 Dec 19:54
Quote:
jake89, Tue 26 Dec 22:52
A very basic example of evolution is sat beside me right now - the domestic dog. His ancestors were wolves (and probably something else before that). They diverged into a number of animals including foxes and dogs - two completely different animals with a common ancestor.
The history of the Earth goes back millions of years so the notion of it starting with man is a bit daft, especially given the ability to find evidence of humans and other animals that would pre-date most religious writings.
What I do find interesting is how any life came to be. We`re all here, typing on internet forums, but how did we get here? How can Earth be the only planet in the solar system that appears to have life? Did we once live on another planet, c*ck it up, come here, build the pyramids then somehow regress
back?
Nope. Wolves are dogs. Canis Lupis.
All different types of dogs are ...... dogs.
You cant breed a dog with a cat.
You can breed a horse with a donkey but the resulting mule is infertile.
There is to my knowledge, no evidence of anything evolving and progressing as anything other than the species it started out as. That includes monkeys apes and man.
I don`t think our dating systems are accurate either.
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Topic Originator: PARrot
Date: Wed 27 Dec 20:00
Onandupthepars. Plants are plants. There is no evolution there, and there is none in the animal kingdom.
The theory of evolution detracted many millions from God over the past hundred or so years and it is folly. Real life, "The Emperor`s New Clothes."
You yourself say it seemed more palatable to you, yet it didn`t happen.
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Topic Originator: DBA
Date: Wed 27 Dec 20:32
Quote:
PARrot, Wed 27 Dec 20:00
Onandupthepars. Plants are plants. There is no evolution there, and there is none in the animal kingdom.
The theory of evolution detracted many millions from God over the past hundred or so years and it is folly. Real life, "The Emperor`s New Clothes."
You yourself say it seemed more palatable to you, yet it didn`t happen.
No evolution? A ruse to detract people from God?
Wild.
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Topic Originator: PARrot
Date: Wed 27 Dec 20:56
Quote:
DBA, Wed 27 Dec 20:32
Quote:
PARrot, Wed 27 Dec 20:00
Onandupthepars. Plants are plants. There is no evolution there, and there is none in the animal kingdom.
The theory of evolution detracted many millions from God over the past hundred or so years and it is folly. Real life, "The Emperor`s New Clothes."
You yourself say it seemed more palatable to you, yet it didn`t happen.
No evolution? A ruse to detract people from God?
Wild.
This conversation has been pleasant so far DBA. Im sure you have something more to offer than one word.
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Wed 27 Dec 21:09
ref: PARrot Wed 27 Dec 19:28 & Wed 27 Dec 19:54
Let me list the points you`ve made.
1. Blaming God for the things men (nonces) do.
I wouldn`t blame a God for them, but as a God does nothing about it, it says to me the idea of a God who loves everyone is false. You can`t profess to love someone then not lift a finger to help them when they are in dire need and you`re there and could easily help them. For the same reason, the idea of an all-powerful God, able to do anything is false, because an all-powerful God who could protect children from nonces but doesn`t, would be immoral.
2. I agree, nonces aren`t acceptable to God, because I don`t believe in an immoral God. Why? Even though parts of the Bible could be cited as evidence of God`s immorality - all the problems related to God`s morality are resolved with the simple acceptance that, if there is a God, he must be amoral. It`s the same as saying why is God indifferent to suffering? He`s not, any more than the sea is indifferent to people drowning. I`m suggesting that if there is a God, it`s a creator and nothing more.
3. People have faith for many different reasons. They are capable of believing absolutely anything. Many have chosen to die rather than relinquish their beliefs. That says much about people`s commitment to their beliefs, nothing about the truth or falsehood of them.
4. What causes man to do evil things? By "man" you mean people. (Why do folk keep on about "man" the species? We`re people.) Greed, absence of empathy, lust for power and wealth, revenge, sadism, etc, the things people think and believe. Even devil-worship. I don`t believe in a devil.
5. To my knowledge, wolves and foxes can`t interbreed. Wolf is Canis Lupis, but fox is Vulpes vulpes.
You don`t think kangaroos and all the other marsupial animals in Australia are evidence of speciation?
Our dating systems are hopeless. I never got anywhere through "Dateline" or any other agency - met my wife through our work. Oh - dating systems! You mean fossil records? Why d`you think they`re innacurate? You don`t think they give even a useful guide?
Post Edited (Wed 27 Dec 21:39)
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Wed 27 Dec 21:24
Ref: PARrot Wed 27 Dec 20:00
"Onandupthepars. Plants are plants. There is no evolution there, and there is none in the animal kingdom.
The theory of evolution detracted many millions from God over the past hundred or so years and it is folly. Real life, "The Emperor`s New Clothes."
You yourself say it seemed more palatable to you, yet it didn`t happen."
--------------------------------------------------
I don`t understand; what was more palatable to me?
"Evolutionary history of plants": (not garden plants - wild ones)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_history_of_plants#:
Some folk must have gone to a deal of trouble to make all that up. Well, there`s a lot of fibbing in the world to be sure.
Sorry, can`t get the link to go hot.
Post Edited (Thu 28 Dec 02:18)
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Topic Originator: alwaysaPar
Date: Wed 27 Dec 21:30
Let`s face it, the Bible is just a story book loosely based on true events
Obviously through time these events have been diluted slightly and parts added for dramatic effect .....
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Wed 27 Dec 22:27
Afraid not PARrot. Foxes diverged from wolves millions of years ago.
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Thu 28 Dec 00:43
The OP asked the question as to why so many people still believe in GOD. It’s a good question and not one to be answered by reference to Darwin, fossils, children damaged at birth, Jimmy Savile or the Old Testament.
The monotheist religions –Judaism, Christianity and Islam-are clearly ridiculous in their creation myths and would have been recognised as that from their inception even before science undermined their narrative. Monotheism makes a damn site less sense than the polytheism of Hinduism or Ancient Greece to a modern scientific eye. The infinity of the universe (or actually multiverse) was implicit in Hindu thought 5,000 years ago, long before test tubes, Einstein’s scribbles or the Hubble telescope. We are no further forward now than we when we were first snogging with our Neanderthal cousins. So why did monotheism become the big player in town?
The answer has to lie partly in political and economic power. Monotheism is, in modern parlance, patriarchal and authoritarian. It is a top- down system of control, like a pyramid. The Divine Right of Kings- the concept that the King was an intermediary between GOD and the people- has given way to a weaker form of religion which claims democracy as its justification. Of course democracy as practised is no more valid than the ideology it replaced but that ideology is still quite powerful. It gives those who are ruled- usually the poor- a pseudo stake in society and the afterlife. It makes them feel they belong. So Biden, Trump and even Putin- a born atheist who lost a Communist father and brother to the Nazis- recognise religion’s capacity to marshall the populace. Even Stalin, at the height of the Nazi invasion, saw the need to open the churches he had closed.
Nietzsche called religion ‘God’s insurance policy’ and that holds good for both the rulers and the ruled.
sammer
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Topic Originator: MessiPar
Date: Thu 28 Dec 10:00
Does anyone else find reading sammer`s posts cures their insomnia.
Why use 1 word when you can use a gazillion....zzzzzz
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Thu 28 Dec 15:08
Ref: PARrot Wed 27 Dec 20:00
"Onandupthepars. Plants are plants. There is no evolution there, and there is none in the animal kingdom.
The theory of evolution detracted many millions from God over the past hundred or so years and it is folly. Real life, "The Emperor`s New Clothes."
You yourself say it seemed more palatable to you, yet it didn`t happen."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry Parrot, I was being a bit slow there. I wasn`t thinking about it, but after a good night`s sleep, I read it again, and it came to me. You mean when I was a teenager and I was thinking about what to believe - I found the ideas of evolution made sense but the idea of the Biblical God creating everything did not.
Was it the same for you - when faced with a choice - you just found one side impossible to believe - and the other - Christianity - made sense?
I wonder if, maybe for you, believing in Jesus came first, then science went in the bin. For me, because I was doing science subjects at school, evolution was something I accepted long before I gave up on ideas of a God of any religion. None of them fits for me.
(Mind you, from a very early age, I hated seeing images of a man nailed to a cross, and was disinterested in a book with pictures and stories about ancient people in the Middle East who had nothing whatsoever to do with my simple childhood in Dunfermline. And I was very young when my mum took me to Coventry cathedral where I saw the horrible sculpture of St Michael and the devil, and on telly I saw JFK get his head blown off, and my mum took me to see the `Ben Hur` film, and `Jason and the Argonauts` with flying devils that gave me recurring nightmares, and on TV I saw the Buddhist monk who set himself on fire. All before I was about eight. What a terrible frightening world! )
That`s to say, we people - some at least - are not just cold decision makers. We see and feel things, our beliefs maybe influenced by things from early on.
Post Edited (Thu 28 Dec 15:13)
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Topic Originator: sadindiefreak
Date: Thu 28 Dec 15:49
Quote:
MessiPar, Thu 28 Dec 10:00
Does anyone else find reading sammer`s posts cures their insomnia.
Why use 1 word when you can use a gazillion....zzzzzz
I stopped reading his posts a long time ago.
Always inaccurate or outright lies.
Needlessly long making multiple false claims so you can`t be bothered countering his misinformation as there`s just so much of it.
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Topic Originator: PARrot
Date: Thu 28 Dec 17:09
Quote:
sadindiefreak, Thu 28 Dec 15:49
Quote:
MessiPar, Thu 28 Dec 10:00
Does anyone else find reading sammer`s posts cures their insomnia.
Why use 1 word when you can use a gazillion....zzzzzz
I stopped reading his posts a long time ago.
Always inaccurate or outright lies.
Needlessly long making multiple false claims so you can`t be bothered countering his misinformation as there`s just so much of it.
Ill get back to you as soon as, onandupthepars, too busy with jnr just now.
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Thu 28 Dec 17:31
Ref: Messipar and Sadindie,
I think what that sammer post boils down to is that, where monotheism has been made official, it`s a means of state control, and those who have taken to it have done so because "it gives them a pseudo stake in society and the afterlife. It makes them feel they belong."
------------------------------------------------------------------
It`s a valid point of view I suppose.
If our schools didn`t bombard wee kids with Christianity from the age of four or five, (as was the case when I was at school) maybe there`d be fewer who took to it.
I mean, I believed in devils and was terrified of them because I saw them on "Jason and the Argonauts" when I was about seven. Some kids I guess, take to the nativity and the baby Jesus and the wise men and the loving God ideas, and maybe they`re already hooked before they know their three times table. I never got into the nativity though - to me it was always strange, ugly folk, (well they were weren`t they? - wearing scruffy old robes, beards and sandals - nothing like (most o`) the folk I knew in Dunfermline!
Typical Dunfermline men, early 1960s:
Typical Biblical men:
Typical Dunfermline scene:
Typical Biblical scene:
Post Edited (Thu 28 Dec 18:28)
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Topic Originator: red-star-par
Date: Thu 28 Dec 20:20
Quote:
sadindiefreak, Thu 28 Dec 15:49
Quote:
MessiPar, Thu 28 Dec 10:00
Does anyone else find reading sammer`s posts cures their insomnia.
Why use 1 word when you can use a gazillion....zzzzzz
I stopped reading his posts a long time ago.
Always inaccurate or outright lies.
Needlessly long making multiple false claims so you can`t be bothered countering his misinformation as there`s just so much of it.
I quite like Sammer and his posts to be fair. Gives us a different viewpoint to consider. His posts on football in the 60s are top notch. I`m not convinced he believes the nonsense he spouts, about his great leader Putin and the glorious motherland of Russia, himself though.
After reading how a man in Russia reciting an Anti War poem was today sentenced to 7 years in jail, after been beaten and raped with a dumbell by the police, I get the impression his statements backing Russia are purely self preservation. I would imagine the authorities in Moscow keep a very close eye on him.
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Topic Originator: Stanza
Date: Thu 28 Dec 20:25
Quote:
PARrot, Tue 26 Dec 21:41
I understand evolution to be the progression of a single cell to becoming everything that is alive today.
When I ask this question people usually talk about how birds beaks etc developed and how dogs have changed.
Yes but that is adapting. Not evolving into a different species.
All things were created according to their kind.
You are correct in defining "adaptation", but that is only one part of the evolution of species.
The way in which living things develop from one species into different species is called "speciation" and usually takes place over a much much longer time period than adaptation. It can come about through physical separation of members of the same species, or exposure to different environments or food sources. The changes are tiny, but incremental, and the timescales are incomprehensibly long for the human brain, so it`s easier to assume that the 9 billion species are fixed - but the scientific evidence suggests they are not. A squirrel will never become a horse, but it`s possible that the two distinct squirrel populations on the north and south sides of the Grand Canyon will eventually diverge into two species.
By the way, "species" is just a word humans use to identify a group of organisms that interbreed and reproduce. It`s more a continuum than a fixed and finite group, so polar bears and grizzly bears (different "species" by our human reckoning) can still mate and produce fertile offspring, so maybe they are on their way to becoming truly distinct species - or maybe when the Arctic ice completely melts they`ll all just interbreed and become grolars and pizzlies!
Also by the way, but it`s important - science doesn`t offer proof of any theory, it is always capable of responding to new evidence by changing the accepted belief - which to me is a proper, rational approach. Religion, on the other hand ...
This is not an attack on anyone`s beliefs - I had decades of involvement in fundamentalist religion, and have a lot of respect for and empathy with many (not all!) of those who practice it. I just think when they go up against the weight of scientific evidence they are backing a loser.
_________________
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Fri 29 Dec 01:39
Not wishing to take this thread off topic but I will provide some background to what Red-Star reported in a previous post.
Artyom Kamardin (political martyr in Moscow) now has a photo at his trial published in The Guardian newspaper. To paraphrase the great crime writer Raymond Chandler, Kamardin looks pretty cheerful for a guy who has been raped by a barbell.
In fact rape is a topic close to his heart as seen in his ‘poem’ recited outside Mayakovskya Metro to an audience of less than thousands. My Russian is a bit ropey but I will try to attach a clip of Kamardin boasting ‘While you are fighting in Donbas I am raping your small daughters. To three year old son I gave drugs. Glory to Ukraine and suck my dick.’
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zATS0OZcvak&t=8s
His earlier verses range from oral sex in toilets to a predilection for young girls. You can find them online. He`s been sentenced to 7 years for offences against the Russian language.
Nobel Literature prize in the post. Julian Assange is not available for comment.
sammer
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Fri 29 Dec 01:39
Hi Stanza
I don`t think speciation is what Parrot is getting at.
Ref: PARrot Tue 26 Dec 21:41
"I understand evolution to be the progression of a single cell to becoming everything that is alive today.
When I ask this question people usually talk about how birds beaks etc developed and how dogs have changed.
Yes but that is adapting. Not evolving into a different species.
All things were created according to their kind."
------------------------------------------------
"according to their kind", is a reference to Genesis 1. I`ve been studying it and I`m willing to accept that what the author intended was, every "kind" in the sense of birds, all the sorts of land animals (mammals, reptiles etc) and all the types of creatures that live in water (fish, etc)
I think Parrot is asking for evidence of how e.g. an invertebrate (one kind of animal) became a reptile (a different kind of animal), became us (different kind again.). He`s not really after a squirrel that becomes two different species of squirrel (I`ve read about them in the grand canyon.) That is speciation as you say, but I don`t think it`s the issue here.
I’m gonna start simple. Here is a ‘tree of life’ diagram to give an overview of human evolution. I like this because it shows a woman for us, which makes a nice change from male-dominated stuff.
I’m not presenting this as evidence, just a basic idea of what evolutionists think is how we got here.
It shows bacteria, to multicellular organisms, to fish, to amphibians, to reptiles, to small mammals, to primates, to hominids and ultimately, to us.
Next I’d like to gather a basic overview of what evidence and research data there is.
Post Edited (Fri 29 Dec 20:25)
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Topic Originator: Alter Ego
Date: Fri 29 Dec 19:38
So just reading through this thread can I ask again “is there a god?”….. or allah or any other character in the sky that is real…. Remember if you don’t believe you will go down under the ground to the evil place and be run by the devil!
Mon the Pars!
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Topic Originator: red-star-par
Date: Fri 29 Dec 19:47
Quote:
Alter Ego, Fri 29 Dec 19:38
So just reading through this thread can I ask again “is there a god?”….. or allah or any other character in the sky that is real…. Remember if you don’t believe you will go down under the ground to the evil place and be run by the devil!
I`ll clear it up for you..... No, there is no God
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Fri 29 Dec 19:54
Quote:
Alter Ego, Fri 29 Dec 19:38
So just reading through this thread can I ask again “is there a god?”….. or allah or any other character in the sky that is real…. Remember if you don’t believe you will go down under the ground to the evil place and be run by the devil!
Can I ask...... Why do you feel the need to mock those who believe there is a God, or Allah, Jehovah, or any other name they wish to call him by?
I`m not foolish enough to state with any certainty that there is or there isn`t. Why couldn`t you just ask a simple question, "Do you believe in God/Allah/Jehovah?" and leave it at that, instead of loading the question, so that those who do believe are made to feel stupid?
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: Alter Ego
Date: Fri 29 Dec 20:17
Oh come on GG🤷
So there is these 13 or so gods up in the sky that so many people pray and look up to and believe what the big man in the church/mosque spout nonsense about?
If you don’t believe you will go to a dark place and live in hell… well I think I’ll try the hell option!
These religions take in millions a year by preaching utter crap….. and people still feel they are protected and needed by a man in the sky? I’m surprised the trannys that are me/they and them haven’t made up their god etc… this world is mental imo.
Mon the Pars!
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Topic Originator: Alter Ego
Date: Fri 29 Dec 21:08
Religion is the most easy money making exercise that’s been going on for years..
Mon the Pars!
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Fri 29 Dec 22:16
It`s quite possible there is a God or God`s, or that all the Gods the various faiths believe in are the same but taken with a different interpretation.
The majority of people involved in religion are nice, normal people. There will be some bad apples, but the same is true of atheists.
What is tiring is people using religion as a feeble excuse to start a fight. We sadly see it every day in Scotland, and likely from people who never step foot in a religious building.
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Fri 29 Dec 23:02
I don`t think Alter Ego`s atheism, which I share, is based on very much at all. The idea of of Gods being up in the sky is an explanation given to children. It is not an adult perception of what religion and God (or Gods) amounts to. A strawman argument.
We are unique amongst all species in having a sense of our own mortality. I know that people claim to have seen the sense of death in the eyes of their dying cat or dog but these animals do not live their life with that frightening inevitability we are exposed to, even as children. Religion is an attempt to make sense of the short life we live and validate it as in some way meaningful.
The evolving religious form is not Jehovah or Allah but Gaia, the earth Goddess who self-impregnated- bad news for blokes. It`s the updated version of original sin and from what I see in its political expression- the Green Party- likely to be as authoritarian and merciless towards heretics as any religion that preceded it.
sammer
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Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy
Date: Sat 30 Dec 05:36
Personally I think its bad science to say 100% definitively that there isn`t a god. But we can say with relative certainty that pretty much all religion is man-made and they are all wrong.
When it comes to the Abrahamic religions, the idea that 3 dudes in the Middle East of all places on this tiny spec of dust were enlightened by the creator of everything and know the "truth" is just absolute nonsense. Judaism, Christianity and Islam should all be referred to as mythology in the same way that Paganism is.
One of the things I always find funny about the Creationists` argument is that very few of them will argue against the existence of gravity. As somebody who studied Chemistry and Astrophysics, I can state that there is far less evidence for gravity than there is for evolution. Yet nobody will question the observable truth that is gravity.
Evolution is by definition an environmentally induced change within a species or organism. If you observe bacterial culture, you can see (for example in yeast) how they evolve over generations. In Craft Beer, you have different yeast strains used to create different styles of beers such as Pils or Stout. Many breweries have their own house yeasts that have evolved over time. In Bamberg there is a brewery called Schlenkerla, famous for their smoked beers using beechwood smoked malt - over generations their yeast has evolved to add a smokey flavour into the beer. In humans, the existence of different races is due to different environmental conditions - Asians evolved to have smaller eyes because of the brighter climate, Europeans evolved to have white skin as it can absorb vitamin D more effectively. Another example is that Women have evolved differently than in previous with the development of medicine and women carrying genes that would cause childbirth deaths are now surviving because of the invention of the C-Section.
Andrew283 on here is a Biochemist by trade if memory serves me correctly so he is the man to ask but, from by own studies, what you very quickly realise from studying both Thermodynamics and Chemical Kinetics is that trying to argue that humans and the great apes are not related is absolutely ridiculous. On DNA chromosomes, you have centromeres and telomeres which are coding and non-coding respectively and so the former is what determines gene expression. If you look at the sequence of the base molecules in the chains in a human vs a great ape (silverback, urangutan etc) then you can see how similar they are. Creationists want to argue that these extremely identical sequences (98+%) come from different pathways. Creationists will often refer to the use of the Primordial Soup Hypothesis, and to argue using molecular collision theory that these two identical sequences would arise separately is simply and nigh impossible from observable principle of Thermodynamics and Chemical Kinetics.
Post Edited (Sat 30 Dec 05:37)
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Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy
Date: Sat 30 Dec 05:36
There are several fascinating things that have developed during our evolutionary story. The fact that many organisms have evolved to take in Blue wavelengths because they are the most energetic. These have all developed as a result of the environment. The fact that our energy system relies on the Phosphorus-Oxygen bond (P-O) which is the most energetic in Organic (non-metal) Chemistry. The fact that our coding system uses Carbon because it bonds 4 times and so chirality of molecules (enantiomers) is possible. The reason that this is Carbon and not Silicon (which bonds in the same way) is because big atoms are built by fusion reactions in stars from smaller ones - you can observe this and date stars based on quantitative analysis of the atoms present - essentially doing the work of a camera manually.
If we look at things from the Astrophysics side, what seems likely is that the Singularity was a matter-antimatter interaction and the Maths at the moment seems to point to an overlap of parallel universes. Anti-matter annihilates matter and the matter in our Universe is what was left over. Unfortunately, due to heat issues, we are a good bit too early to test these ideas fully with supercomputers but understanding that maths is a language that can be used to describe anything is a really awesome perspective. If interested in the likelihood of life on other planets, the Drake equation is a really interesting one to read about and all the factors it takes into consideration. We really have no idea how big the Universe is in total, but we can measure that the "observable universe is about 93Bn Lightyears in Diameter and from memory the models suggest that the actual universe is at least 250 times that size, likely more. Considering that there are 200Bn Trillion (10^21) stars in the observable universe alone, it is almost inconceivable that we are alone.
For me, the problem with the likes of Christianity is that these religions and their top echelons always try to force their way into politics and use that to place legal restrictions on others. Why is it that in Scotland women`s and gay rights are still an issue today? The simple answer is the backwardness of Christianity at the influence Christianity has had on Scots law. While the monarchy remains in place, Scotland will never be a truly secular country as the Monarch is also the head of the Church of Scotland. I honestly can`t understand why people want to live their lives according to an archaic set of rules from the Middle East. Considering that polls show Scotland is about 60% non-religious, I would say its time to boot religion out of our legal system.
Christians and Muslims always talk about "God`s love" but honestly their religions are extremely hateful toward anyone who disagrees. Both the Quran and the Bible state quite clearly to kill the apostates and non-believers. Funnily enough, In terms of morality, the Satanists have evolved well beyond the Christians and Muslims.
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Sat 30 Dec 17:23
Quote:
Alter Ego, Fri 29 Dec 20:17
Oh come on GG🤷
So there is these 13 or so gods up in the sky that so many people pray and look up to and believe what the big man in the church/mosque spout nonsense about?
If you don’t believe you will go to a dark place and live in hell… well I think I’ll try the hell option!
These religions take in millions a year by preaching utter crap….. and people still feel they are protected and needed by a man in the sky? I’m surprised the trannys that are me/they and them haven’t made up their god etc… this world is mental imo.
See there you go again, min! You just can`t help yourself, can you?
Look, you don`t believe there is a God, or any number of gods and that`s absolutely your prerogative, but why belittle or mock those who do? Perhaps you`re just being a bit mischievous and winding up posters like PARrot and Paralex who are both committed Christians?
Now, if you`re right and those who believe and are regular church goers are mistaken, they`ve just wasted an hour of their lives every week, but if they`re right and you`re wrong, you`ll be damned for all eternity. 😱
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Sat 30 Dec 17:45
Calm doon GG .. Not sure why you are dragging paralex into this ? .. did you mean OAUTP ? .. All the best to you and yours for a healthy and prosperous 2024
We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Sat 30 Dec 17:53
Quote:
Buspasspar, Sat 30 Dec 17:45
Calm doon GG .. Not sure why you are dragging paralex into this ? .. did you mean OAUTP ? .. All the best to you and yours for a healthy and prosperous 2024
Never been mair calm in my puff, BPP. 😀
I wasn`t dragging Paralex anywhere - just using him as an example of a committed Christian, which is not an insult, btw. People who adhere to Christian values are always great role models.
Of course, you can be an atheist and adhere to precisely the same values.
Eta. Best wishes to you and yours, too, ya cranky auld fogey. 😉
Not your average Sunday League player.
Post Edited (Sat 30 Dec 17:55)
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Sat 30 Dec 18:01
Cheers GG .. you have me sussed .. as always .. Take Care .. COYP
We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Sat 30 Dec 19:24
Quote:
jake89, Fri 29 Dec 22:16
What is tiring is people using religion as a feeble excuse to start a fight. We sadly see it every day in Scotland, and likely from people who never step foot in a religious building.
Ironically, both religions celebrate the same god, and the same Jesus, just in slightly different ways……
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Sat 30 Dec 21:58
Quote:
Dave_1885, Sat 30 Dec 19:24
Quote:
jake89, Fri 29 Dec 22:16
What is tiring is people using religion as a feeble excuse to start a fight. We sadly see it every day in Scotland, and likely from people who never step foot in a religious building.
Ironically, both religions celebrate the same . the same Jesus, just in slightly different ways……
Maybe the religions do, but the people you refer to are not at all Christian in their outlook and behaviour. Jesus didn`t teach people to hate one another.
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Sun 31 Dec 11:10
Quote:
GG Riva, Sat 30 Dec 21:58
Quote:
Dave_1885, Sat 30 Dec 19:24
Quote:
jake89, Fri 29 Dec 22:16
What is tiring is people using religion as a feeble excuse to start a fight. We sadly see it every day in Scotland, and likely from people who never step foot in a religious building.
Ironically, both religions celebrate the same . the same Jesus, just in slightly different ways……
Maybe the religions do, but the people you refer to are not at all Christian in their outlook and behaviour. Jesus didn`t teach people to hate one another.
It`s because they`re more like the "Irish Catholic" and "Scotch Irish" Americans in that none ever go to church but they cling onto these daft labels as an excuse to hate each other.
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Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy
Date: Sun 31 Dec 12:57
I thought it was widely agreed that Jesus existed. My favourite theory I`ve read on him is that the guy might have had syphilis and that this explains a lot of his "visions".
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Topic Originator: Stanza
Date: Mon 1 Jan 03:06
Just one small criticism of hurricane Jimmy`s otherwise excellent post.
The monarch is NOT the head of the Church of Scotland, he is an ordinary member just like everyone else, and being monarch gives him no special status.
The Church of Scotland recognises only Jesus Christ as `King and Head of the Church`.
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Topic Originator: DBP
Date: Mon 1 Jan 09:47
He’s head of the Church of England… not sure about any others across the uk / commonwealth
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Topic Originator: Stanza
Date: Mon 1 Jan 19:14
Quote:
DBP, Mon 1 Jan 09:47
He’s head of the Church of England… not sure about any others across the uk / commonwealth
The Church of Ireland, the Church in Wales and the Scottish Episcopal Church are disestablished - they have no state connection and are not subject to the authority of the Church of England or the monarch.
That is also true of each of the 40 or so churches in other countries that make up the Anglican Communion. There is no central authority, although they recognise the Archbishop of Canterbury as the Communion’s spiritual head.
_________________
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Wed 3 Jan 07:29
"Stop praying and beating your chest. Have fun, love, sing and enjoy everything this world can give you. I don`t want you to visit the cold, dark temples that you say are my home! My home is not in a temple, but in the mountains, forests, rivers, lakes and beaches. That`s where my home is and that`s where I express my love. Don`t be fooled by written texts that talk about me: if you want to get closer to me, look at a beautiful landscape, try to feel the wind and the heat on your skin. Don`t ask me anything, I don`t have the power to change your life, you do. Don`t be afraid, I don`t judge or criticize, I don`t dispense punishments. Don`t believe anyone who simplifies me into simple rules to follow: those only serve to make you feel inadequate and guilty for what you do, they serve to keep you under control."
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Wed 3 Jan 11:58
GGRiva,
I like that, except "that`s where I express my love." I don`t see nature/God as something that has emotions or love to express. It`s magnificent, awesome, moving, but feelings are all in us and other animals. Nature is indifferent as the cold sea. As indifferent to baby mice snuggling in a nest as it is to a badger eating them. Sad but true - so I believe!
Post Edited (Wed 03 Jan 12:03)
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Wed 3 Jan 12:22
Quote:
onandupthepars, Wed 3 Jan 11:58
GGRiva,
I like that, except "that`s where I express my love." I don`t see nature/God as something that has emotions or love to express. It`s magnificent, awesome, moving, but feelings are all in us and other animals. Nature is indifferent as the cold sea. As indifferent to baby mice snuggling in a nest as it is to a badger eating them. Sad but true - so I believe!
I can`t claim any of my previous post as my own, oautp, but it did chime with my feelings at this time in my life.
I was reading about Einstein`s reply when he was asked if he believed in God. The piece I posted broadly agrees with his reply, which in turn, chimes with the views of the 17th century philosopher, Baruch Spinoza.
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Wed 3 Jan 16:05
Well done GGRiva. I had read a bit about the views of Einstein and Spinoza. They`re about the nearest I`ve found to my own way of thinking. I will add something, a wee bit from Spinoza:
"If you can`t read me in a sunrise, in a landscape, in the look of your friends, in your son`s eyes... you will find me in no book!" (1)
In that quote, instead of "me", I`d say "the best of life." Not interchangeable with "God," but maybe one of few points where I differ from Spinoza. I think the word "God" causes problems - too many preconceptions. I think much of what Spinoza says makes sense if you believe that nature is everything, the creative force, and all the stuff that exists. Nothing exists beyond existence, and all existence is nature.
Seems about right.
(1) Einstein`s answer upon asking about Belief and God
[urlhttps://www.linkedin.com/pulse/einsteins-answer-upon-asking-belief-god-deepak-goel
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Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy
Date: Mon 8 Jan 01:22
Interesting - genuinely didn`t know that the Monarch wasn`t considered head of the Church of Scotland. That said, I do think the sentiment of my post still stands.
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Topic Originator: Paralex
Date: Fri 9 Feb 15:26
Excuse me for entering the discussion. There seems no doubt among serious commentators that Jesus was a real person, that he lived and died and rose again from the dead. In the four gospels, particularly John, he made massive claims about himself. "The way, the truth and the life", "the living water", "The bread of life", "the son of God","the Messiah" etc.
Of course God exists. The whole universe we inhabit clearly points to an all mighty intelligent non material mind outwith ttime and space. Even Richard Dawkins admits that the fine tuning of the laws of physics to permit life on earth is "a good argument for an intelligent designer".
But is that intelligent designer the God of the Bible? I didn`t always believe that it was but I found out at the age of 16 that the death of Christ on the cross was not just a story quite remote from my own experience but something that is vital and powerful right now. He died for me to bring me to God. I found that when I accepted Him as my Saviour that Imy life was transformed and I had a real relationship with God. He doesn`t answer all our questions about suffering in the world, the Devil still exists and until we all move into the eternal dimension we continue to be in a spiritual battle, whether we know it or not.
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Topic Originator: Alter Ego
Date: Fri 9 Feb 16:58
You need to get of the drugs Paralex.
Mon the Pars!
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Fri 9 Feb 18:15
Alter Ego that is a crass reply to a guy who is laying bare his believe .. If it differs from yours fair enough .. but to suggest drug abuse because it differs from yours is wrong ..
We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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Topic Originator: Paralex
Date: Fri 9 Feb 19:29
No offence taken Buspass. I`m very much used to all kinds of reactions. I`ve been involved in Christian outreach since my teens and engaged with thousands over the years with all kinds of reactions but if something is true and vitally important, it needs to be shared. I also feel that there is a real change occurring in academia where atheistic philosophy is running out of steam. Evolution theory can`t explain how life came about in the first place. The cell, which Darwin thought was a very simple construction turns out to be highly complex and the more that is known about it, the further scientist are from being able to explain how it came about.
But the real power of the Christian message is in the cross of Christ. It is as effective today in transforming people`s lives as it ever was. Trying to earn our own favour with God by religious duties doesn`t work, trying to do good deeds doesn`t work. The only thing that is effective is surrendering ourselves to God acknowledging our sinfulness and accepting the free gift of God`s forgiveness through the sacrifice of His son on the cross. That takes away any human pride because we are completely unable to rescue ourselves and rely on God to save us. It also leaves the door open for any or all to reach out and receive that free gift.
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Topic Originator: Alter Ego
Date: Fri 9 Feb 19:43
Busspasspar just read the above…. Honestly the poster sounds nuts🤷 Maybe not drug abuse I apologise but religious abuse like being brainwashed into thinking like this in real life.
Post Edited (Fri 09 Feb 19:45)
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Topic Originator: Paralex
Date: Fri 9 Feb 22:38
I`m very surprised Alter Ego that you have never heard the orthodox Christian gospel before. All that I have written is the faith believed by the apostles and passed down through the ages and which continues to be taught in the many evangelical churches throughout the UK. It is the gospel that my wife and I took to mainland China some years ago and taught in churches there. Strangely enough China prints more Bibles in English than any other country and Chinese people are believing the gospel in big numbers. Christianity is a faith based religion. " Salvation is by grace through faith not by works lest any one should boast". It is the simple gospel, so easy to understand that the least educated of people can understand it and concealed from those who think they are wise. Jesus asks us to come like little children with simple faith in Himself.
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Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy
Date: Sat 10 Feb 11:36
Paralex, what you`re saying about science is an absolute falsehood. Scientific understanding has advanced MASSIVELY over the last century and the timeline of the Torah, Bible and Kuran has been conclusively shown to be utterly ridiculous. Believe what you want, but don`t spread lies about science when you likely don`t understand things like Chemical Kinetics, Thermodynamics etc the principles of which are observable experimentally. Lying is a sin according to your God after all.
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Topic Originator: Paralex
Date: Sat 10 Feb 20:59
Not so hurricane Jimmy. Am I wrong in saying that Richard Dawkins is recorded as saying that the fine tuning of the laws of physics to permit the existence of life on earth, is a good argument for an intelligent designer? I`ve witnessed him saying it. Am I wrong in stating that the very latest studies into the construction of the cell, have revealed that it is far more complex than had been previously imagined? Some of the greatest minds in Chemistry and Biology are telling me so. Am I wrong in stating that the more information that is gained in micro biology, the more complex it becomes and the further micro biologist are from trying to replicate it?
Answers on a postcard please.
No scientist has the slightest clue how the universe came about. Why is there something and not nothing? The universe had a beginning. How did it suddenly appear out of nothing, or a singularity, as some say? Did it just appear for no reason or was there an unbelievably powerful mind involved?
Post Edited (Sat 10 Feb 21:08)
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Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy
Date: Sun 11 Feb 00:57
I`m not sure what Richard Dawkins has said. The guy actually doesn`t hold a science degree if memory serves correctly, but he is a favourite target of followers of Christian and Islamic mythology alike.
You`re right that scientists are discovering new things all the time and discovering that previous theories are correct - the Higgs Boson being but one. One of my old lecturers at Lund University just won a Nobel Prize for her work in Atomic physics for work that has taken decades.
I see you sidestepped Thermodynamics and Chemical Kinetics which is rather convenient as they both show the biblical timeline to be simply impossible and are measurable in the lab. The fact that you simply don`t understand something doesn`t mean that it is wrong.
The claim that scientists don`t know how the Universe started is extremely dubious - you really need to read a wee bit more into the research about atomic spectroscopy for stellar atmospheres, star formation, matter-antimatter interactions and so on. No doubt though you`ll find some Evangelical soundbite to "counter" these well-established facts which show the biblical/abrahamic timeline to be simply impossible by many magnitudes.
For reference, many Mainland Chinese genuinely think that Pangolin scales, Rhino horns and Tiger penis have magic healing powers, so I`m not surprised some of them believe in the bible! 😂 Moreover the CCP are extremely concerned about retaining power because the economy is on the verge of collapse and are basically turning the kids into the Xijugend with indoctrination, so I can`t see Christianity lasting much longer in China.
Christianity is essentially a form of willful ignorance and indoctrinating others with it is utterly shameful. Spreading falsehoods about science to indoctrinate others to your way of thinking when you haven`t studied it is equally shameful. Thou should not lie!
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Topic Originator: Paralex
Date: Sun 11 Feb 02:03
Richard Dawkins is probably the foremost atheistic voicepiece for non belief in a creator God in the 20th and21st centuries. His book "The God delusion" has influenced millions. He is an emeritus Professor of Oxford University, is an evolutionary biologist and holds a doctorate in zoology. People quote him because as one of the most outspoken critics of belief in God, he seems now to be having second thoughts.
Not only are scientists finding that some theories may be correct, they are also having to readjust many of their fantastical claims about what they may be able to achieve for the good of humanity because many of their claims are just so stories that have become a moving target and way beyond their reach.
The claim that scientist know how the material universe was created out of nothing is highly dubious.
When one Chinese Pastor in Wuhan learned that I was from Scotland, his eyes lit up with genuine love and gratitude for the Scottish missionaries of the 19th and early 20th Century who, at considerable personal cost took the gospel to China. Indoctrinating people with communist ideology and exercising tyranny over them is indeed shameful. Sharing the life saving gospel is wonderful. What a joy it was to be likened to Eric Liddle or William Chalmers Burns.
I met a Chinese Christian in a Baptist Church in Glasgow, several years ago, who was beaten up and imprisoned for several years in Henan Province,for his faith in Christ during the Cultural Revolution. His life story was the subject of a best selling book. As a young man he was hungry for God and he found God in the pages of the Bible. The gospel has lasted for two thousand years because through it people find God. He created us. We were made to enjoy Him and we can know Him. It is no myth. It is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes.
The gospel speaks of a God who so loved the world that He gave his only son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. That statement is full of hope. What hope, may I ask does your philosophy offer?
Post Edited (Sun 11 Feb 02:37)
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Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy
Date: Sun 11 Feb 03:14
That statement is full of lies and delusion. As expected, you know hee haw about the scientific principles I mentioned. Don`t forget that your religion spread by the sword.
Scientific advances offer a healthier life for the masses.
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Topic Originator: OzPar
Date: Sun 11 Feb 03:57
I rejected my parents` religion quite early in life on the basis that in Scotland, your religion categorised you in a social block from which it was practically impossible to escape. No one here needs any reminding of the hatred that religion can create within Scottish society.
It is no coincidence that a feisty Scot, John Knox, sowed the seeds of that deep religious divide: a Catholic priest turned radical reformer, a recipe for almost five centuries of deep-seated anger and intolerance, most of it ill-defined and difficult to justify, but expressed most clearly in the West and East ends of Glasgow on a Saturday afternoon.
In recent years, I have reread the Bible, mainly the New Testament, as it came free in a hotel thanks to a guy called Gideon and is easier to read than the Old Testament. It has far fewer characters to get one`s head around. I have no idea how many people get mentioned in the Old Testament, but it must run into thousands. It is about the same length as Tolstoy`s War & Peace, but, to me, it is denser than a rainforest.
I have read Hitchens, and I have read Dawkins`s rejections of God and religion. Their arguments can be convoluted and come from different angles, but their points and conclusions are clear. I don`t agree with everything they say, as so many things in life would suggest the hand of a greater being (God?) must have had a part to play.
Who or what that greater being is/was? I don`t know. But I know that when I was a seafarer all those years ago, I was acutely conscious that there was design behind everything in the natural world.
On a ship in the middle of an ocean, I could look up into the heavens at twilight and pick out a handful of bright stars – such as Sirius, Betelgeuse, and Canopus – and with a sextant, a set of logarithmic tables, a pen, a watch, and a bit of paper, could calculate precisely where I was on the planet. This isn`t magic; this is design.
How we choose to celebrate that staggeringly beautiful design is the cause of so much unnecessary conflict in our world. The irony is that so many religions are so similar in their principles. It is the execution of those principles that seems to cause all the troubles.
Post Edited (Sun 11 Feb 04:44)
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Topic Originator: dd23
Date: Sun 11 Feb 10:02
That’s a really valid post Oz.
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Topic Originator: Paralex
Date: Sun 11 Feb 13:21
Very sweeping and arbitrary allegations hurricane Jimmy and while you have tried to blind us all with spurious scientific claims, you have failed to answer the vital question of how the universe came about from nothing. More bluster than substance as usual from pseudo scientists and their "just so" stories. By the way, God is not subject to time because he invented it and we all know that the concept of time is not fixed since it passes faster or slower depending on the effects of gravity.
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Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy
Date: Sun 11 Feb 13:33
If you think that science is suggesting our Universe came from nothing, then you`re obviously not familiar with current research. Try again.
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Topic Originator: Paralex
Date: Sun 11 Feb 13:50
Where did the something that it came from come from? You are getting into a circular argument. All that is doing is kicking the can further down the road to avoid answering the question that something incredibly powerful and unbelievably intelligent is responsible for the formation of the universe and the life that exists in it.
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Topic Originator: Paralex
Date: Sun 11 Feb 14:11
Yes that`s a very honest statement Ozpar. It was probably good when I came to Glasgow as a 9 year old that I was a Dunfermline supporter. But the Catholic/Protestant issue was never a problem for me. I was taught by my parents to respect people for who they were not for what religion or ethnicity they identified with. I was more aware of youth gangs in Glasgow, which had nothing to do with religious affiliation. The Rangers / Celtic troubles were nothing to do with true religion but just gangs of delinquents engaging in another form of gang warfare.
I think you are being slightly unfair to John Knox and his buddies and that would be a view shared by my very good Roman Catholic friend. I think if you had lived in his day and had been subject to the tyrannies of the Roman Catholic Church, you would have protested too. Ordinary people were being denied an education and the ability to possess and read their own Bibles. They were not being allowed to think for themselves and wisdom on spiritual matters was being rationed from on high and the sole province of the church hierarchy. All of us have benefitted from the reformers in their plan for a free school in every parish. Many, including Knox paid a heavy price for their actions.
Post Edited (Sun 11 Feb 14:15)
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Topic Originator: DBP
Date: Sun 11 Feb 15:17
Quote:
Paralex, Sun 11 Feb 13:50
Where did the something that it came from come from? You are getting into a circular argument. All that is doing is kicking the can further down the road to avoid answering the question that something incredibly powerful and unbelievably intelligent is responsible for the formation of the universe and the life that exists in it.
Is that not the same question as who created God?
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Topic Originator: Paralex
Date: Sun 11 Feb 17:04
No, because a created God is an idol. Christians don`t believe in a created God, He is infinite and eternal.
But in the paragraph I didn`t mention God. I was referring to the cause behind the appearance of the universe, the dimension and complexity of which unmistakably points to an all mighty powerful, non material and intelligent cause. To keep on positing material causes just poses the question where the material came from.
Post Edited (Sun 11 Feb 17:18)
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Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Sun 11 Feb 19:18
Is it not ironic that these “books of peace” (bible, Quran etc) are the beginning of 95% of wars in history?
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Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy
Date: Sun 11 Feb 20:09
As I said previously, read about matter anti-matter interactions and you`ll have an idea about the origins of our universe but no doubt there will be some evangelical soundbite to "counter" this.
The Christian mythological god is an idol created in the Middle East about 3500 years ago. Man made your God. The funny thing is that the Satanists have better morals than the Christians these days.
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Topic Originator: OzPar
Date: Sun 11 Feb 20:51
Paralex, I didn`t wish to be unfair to John Knox. I was trying to illustrate that too many Scots still hold resentment toward others over the behaviour and injustices of the Catholic Church in the 1500s or, indeed, glorify a battle that took place in 1690. Of course, Catholics of Irish or Jacobean descent can do the same.
On the face of it, the religious rivalries that exist in Scotland are not replicated down south. Still, you don`t have to travel too far to discover deep resentments simmering under the surface; only it doesn`t just apply to Catholics and Protestants, but Muslims and Jews, Blacks, Eastern Europeans and Asians.
There`s the irony. Scotland is considered a very tolerant nation. Muslims, Jews, Blacks, and Asians all praise the Scots for their welcoming nature. Yet, when it comes to our own, the ethnic Scots, we retain a deep well of resentment that goes back centuries.
These religious rivalries are present in pockets all over the world. Religions that foster love and compassion for others frequently resort to bombs and guns to assert their superiority.
It is, therefore, easy to conclude that religion has an awful lot to answer for.
The existence of a God, a greater being, and a creator is a separate matter. As I said in my OP, there is strong evidence to suggest design in what surrounds us. Since the earliest times, man has recognised and wished to understand patterns in his universe.
There is evidence all over the ancient world - the Egyptians, the Greeks, the Mesopotamians, the Persians, the Chinese, the Andean peoples - that they believed in something greater than themselves. This was expressed in their pursuit of technology, science and the arts. How else do you explain the Pyramids, Stonehenge, or the Mayan Observatories? It was through these that humanity advanced to where it is today.
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Topic Originator: Paralex
Date: Sun 11 Feb 20:53
Don`t know where you get that from Dave 1885, the Boer, Crimean, First and second World wars were nothing to do with religious books and must account for a massive percentage of conflicts.
You seem to be the master of the sweeping statement and rabbit out of the hat creation theories hurricane Jimmy. The universe is built on incredible design information. Information requires an intelligent mind, it doesn`t come about by an arbitrary unguided process. What or who is the mind behind it?
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Topic Originator: Paralex
Date: Sun 11 Feb 21:11
Religion may have a lot to answer for Ozpar but not the kind that I know. In all my years as a Christian I have only met people in the churches of deep compassion and care. My wife and I spent three months in Nazareth some years ago. We were volunteer workers in the Scottish Christian Hospital there. We worked with and went to church with Arab/Israeli Christians whose families, generations before, had lost their homes and land to incoming Jewish settlers. Because they had the love of God in their hearts, they prayed for and reached out with the Christian gospel to their Jewish neighbours.
No Christian can read the teachings of Jesus in the gospels and conclude that they inspire him to be violent to someone else. Read the sermon on the mount in Matthew Chapter 6. When Jesus was being arrested, He told Simon Peter to put his sword away.
There may be times when, perhaps to defend your family or country, that wars seem inevitable but human greed and aggression are the cause, not the Christian gospel.
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Topic Originator: OzPar
Date: Sun 11 Feb 21:41
Paralex, I don`t for a moment dispute the compassion and care you witnessed during your Christian life. I have seen it, too. But I refuse to ignore or accept the discriminatory behaviour of some towards others simply because of the religion they practice.
At its extreme, you get Gaza and the West Bank. But, like it or not, there is every chance it is going on in your town today, right under your nose.
It can be pretty insidious. Often, the victim is unaware that they are being held back from making progress in life because they go to the wrong church.
That`s a side of Christianity that no one likes to discuss, but it most certainly exists.
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Topic Originator: Paralex
Date: Sun 11 Feb 22:26
I can`t really comment on that Ozpar because in the 4 different offices I worked in, in Glasgow, following my profession, no such discrimination existed. There was always a happy mixture of Protestants, Catholics and ethnic minorities.
I suppose there will always be some who have socio/religious preferences in who they employ but it`s never come into my experience and in no way does the Bible encourage such discrimination. But, as Christians, we are only encouraged to follow the example of others as they follow the example of Christ. Therefore it`s not an example of Christianity, its an example of people disobeying the teachings of Christ.
Post Edited (Sun 11 Feb 22:28)
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