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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Mon 2 Oct 11:02
A series about the history of the UK presented by David Olusoga begins tonight on BBC2 at 9pm.
In a preview article in the Observer he concluded :-
`From the jumble of contradictions and complicating factors that lie within the history of union, what perhaps stands out is the fundamental truth that the UK was formed, not in accordance with some great master plan, but through a series of accidents, compromises, chance happenings and, on occasion, some rather dodgy back-room deals. The unions of 1707 and 1801 were both in part motivated by the urgent need to prevent Scotland and Ireland respectively being used as a bridgehead for a foreign invasion of England.
The improvised way in which our current state was created is one of the factors that helps explain why so many of us have complex, overlapping, hyphenated identities, and the history of the union reminds us that like many other nations the UK, despite all it has endured, is a more fragile construct than appearances might suggest. With the majority of younger Scots, according to polls, now committed to independence, and with Catholics outnumbering Protestants for the first time in Northern Ireland, the future of the union is as contested as its past.`
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Topic Originator: Parboiled
Date: Mon 2 Oct 11:36
He’s big on slavery an no doubt slaver a lot about now the dastardly English have enslaved us…
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Mon 2 Oct 12:11
He was born in Nigeria and lives in England but some of his ancestors moved from Scotland. He should have an interesting perspective and the neutrality you would expect of a historian.
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Topic Originator: thenatural
Date: Mon 2 Oct 15:26
His shows have been uniformly excellent in the past. Interesting to see the reaction this gets.
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Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Mon 2 Oct 15:50
Really good and well researched documentary. It`s not just about the relationship between Scotland and England either - it covers all four countries in The Union.
"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Mon 2 Oct 16:58
Will give it a watch but it always surprises me how little Scottish history of actual interest is taught in school. Things like the Auld Alliance are fascinating but seem/feel overlooked.
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Mon 2 Oct 17:30
I think that was partly what inspired Olusoga to make the documentary, Jake. He said that, until he met some Irish students at university, he knew very little about Anglo-Irish history.
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Topic Originator: red-star-par
Date: Mon 2 Oct 19:33
Quote:
jake89, Mon 2 Oct 16:58
Will give it a watch but it always surprises me how little Scottish history of actual interest is taught in school. Things like the Auld Alliance are fascinating but seem/feel overlooked.
I agree, I could have told you everything about english history from 1066 onwards, but Scottish history was totally absent from my schooling. Everything was presented from the english perspective, and there wasn`t much balance either, we heard nothing of how the empire was built on slavery, genocide, war and looting.
The Union has had over 300 years to present it`s case, the fact the the polls are still showing a 50/50 split suggests it hasn`t worked.
It`s inevitable that Scotland will be independent in the next 20 years. The daft old folk holding us back are a dying breed
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Mon 2 Oct 23:31
Going to school through the 80s and 90s I can`t say I ever got anything about English history. The world wars and bit about the Victorians. Anything I learned about English history was through my own initiative. I certainly don`t think English history was any part of the curriculum.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: Parboiled
Date: Tue 3 Oct 08:28
Jake spouting bilge again…
As one of those daft old folk I can say with the utmost confidence that whatever went on in all that British Empire building Scots were as rapacious participants as everyone else.
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Tue 3 Oct 09:23
Alas you are confirming your daft old folk status by not reading the previous post properly and getting Jake and Red Star mixed up.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Tue 3 Oct 13:19
Quote:
Parboiled, Tue 3 Oct 08:28
Jake spouting bilge again…
As one of those daft old folk I can say with the utmost confidence that whatever went on in all that British Empire building Scots were as rapacious participants as everyone else.
They point out in the early part of the first episode of the documentary that one of the biggest motivating factors for Scottish MPs to form the Union was access to trade with English colonies.
In other words, the Empire building was in full swing before Scotland was in a position to help out.
You are right that Scots were heavily involved post Union though. One of the many reasons why it was unwise in hindsight.
"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Tue 3 Oct 15:00
I was expecting more details about the negotiations to compensate some of those who had lost money in the Darien Scheme for supporting the Act of Union - the so-called `Parcel of Rogues`.
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Topic Originator: Parboiled
Date: Tue 3 Oct 15:08
No minutes of these meetings were taken eck…
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Tue 3 Oct 17:39
That`s one of your better efforts but, let`s be honest, the bar is pretty low.
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Tue 3 Oct 19:54
Quote:
Parboiled, Tue 3 Oct 08:28
Jake spouting bilge again…
As one of those daft old folk I can say with the utmost confidence that whatever went on in all that British Empire building Scots were as rapacious participants as everyone else.
🤦♂️ Specs on before you post auld yin.
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Topic Originator: McCaig`s Tower
Date: Tue 3 Oct 21:26
I’ll add this to my watch list.
As for history I can barely remember what I was taught in this subject at school. I know it was a long time ago and there wasn’t nearly so much of it in those days but even so…
I do recall doing the Stone Age, Bronze Age and Iron Age. And the Vikings. Always the Vikings – every school I went to seemed to do the Vikings. And I vaguely remember the odd piece on things like Mott and Bailey castles for example.
We certainly never learnt about Kings and Queens and dates of battles. I think the thinking in teaching was that this was a bad method but with hindsight, I think it provided a useful structure around which you could learn other things and see how it all hung together. It was the same with Geography – no capitals of countries or major rivers or anything. And as for Modern Studies – whilst I believe there was a syllabus where you learned about the post war formation of alliances leading to the creation of NATO and the Soviet Bloc, what we got was more like town planning.
For O Grade we did the American Revolution, the Russian Revolution and the First World War. I don’t remember being particularly taught about the British Empire (good or bad) and any Scottish history was very much a one-off, off-piste departure from whatever it was that we were meant to be learning.
Although clearly older than TOWK my experience would be similar – I learned what history I know from other sources, either deliberately or in passing. Much of that will have had an Anglocentric bias, but then perhaps the reigns of the likes of Lulach and Macbeth weren’t particularly significant.
I would dispute this notion that somehow Scots were historically morally superior only to be corrupted by the union of the crowns or the parliaments, and were either of these to be reversed then this virtue would reassert itself somehow. We’re all human.
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Tue 3 Oct 23:04
Who put forward that notion? I don`t see it in the posts on here and I don`t recall it from last night`s episode.
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Topic Originator: Parboiled
Date: Wed 4 Oct 10:27
Eck, check out some of HJ’s anti English ravings..
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Wed 4 Oct 10:35
HJ hasn`t commented on this thread.
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Topic Originator: McCaig`s Tower
Date: Wed 4 Oct 11:41
HJ hasn`t commented on this thread. Careful now, or he may manifest…
I thought the notion to which I alluded was the implication of Wotsit’s comments.
However others have argued elsewhere that the “ethos” is different between Scots and English. Does that just mean different and not “better”?
He * who shall not be named said As for being English and auld, there are very few worse combinations in my experience.. Now he didn’t explicitly say that being Scottish and young wasn’t one of these “worse combinations”, but is that not the interpretation?
* I`m assuming he is a he - I don`t actually know.
Post Edited (Wed 04 Oct 11:43)
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Topic Originator: Andrew283
Date: Wed 4 Oct 11:51
Quote:
wee eck, Wed 4 Oct 10:35
HJ hasn`t commented on this thread.
😂😂
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Wed 4 Oct 12:12
No doubt HJ will comment on this thread if he feels inclined. I was hoping it would concentrate on the content of this TV series rather than the more political views which are expressed on other threads but I`m quite prepared to engage on that subject here if necessary.
We often hear this argument that Scots` attitudes and culture are no different from those of our southern neighbours but that doesn`t explain our opposite views on the EU as expressed in the 2016 referendum or our rejection of Conservative rule in Scotland at any level since the 1950s.
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Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Wed 4 Oct 13:18
I wasn`t arguing that at all McCT: I was arguing exactly what I said - that history has shown there were some terrible consequences of the British Empire that Scotland might, with hindsight, have been better off not having as part of its legacy.
Our ancestors` morals were corrupted by their attempt to form a Scottish Colony, but the harm done by the British Empire is, by dint of its success in broadly achieving its aims, far greater than Scotland, or England for that matter, could have managed on their own.
"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Wed 4 Oct 15:41
In contrast to others, we were taught a fair bit about Scottish history in primary school - projects on Wallace/Bruce, Mary Queen of Scots, our part in WW2 (evacuations etc), Dunfermline and even Dalgety Bay’s history were all term time teachings. Visited numerous historical places too - Holyrood Palace, Stirling Castle, Bannockburn, Abbot House, Carnegies Birthplace.
I suppose it all depends on the school and their teachings, or could be that I was at school at a more modern time (the late 90s) than others so the research materials were more accessible to the teachers.
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Wed 4 Oct 15:59
There wisnae enough room on my slate for history when I was at school :-)
We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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Topic Originator: Parboiled
Date: Wed 4 Oct 17:01
…. and you were a bit wabbit after walking six miles in your clogs to get there
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Wed 4 Oct 17:51
Aye and that was after I`d raked the ashes .. chapped the kindlin .. fed the cat and put the broak bin oot
We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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Topic Originator: McCaig`s Tower
Date: Wed 4 Oct 20:30
To be honest, I was really posting about the teaching of history/geography in schools and not the TV program which I haven’t seen yet – thanks for sharing your experience Dave -but it was (predictably) my final remarks that generated the controversy. I’m happy to take that particular discussion to another thread – I think I was intending to respond in “Trigger Happy” even though that had gone off topic. I’ll respond there to wee eck’s comments and more when I get a moment.
Apologies for misinterpreting your comments Wotsit. Are you saying rather that the net effect of (the British) Empire on humanity was adverse, and the magnitude of this was increased by Scotland’s collusion with England? That would be a whole different discussion. But it reminds me – we must have studied the Romans at some point.
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Topic Originator: Andrew283
Date: Thu 5 Oct 13:06
History for me, from Pimary school to Higher level involved William Wallace and the ear for indy as the only Scottish focussed topic. Everything else was WW2, it`s build up and the history of Westminster. Dreadfully limited range of topics.
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Thu 5 Oct 13:27
At primary school I remember the class listening to a big loudspeaker broadcasting radio programmes on Scottish history, some involving re-enactments of events.
Although I took history through to O-Grade at DHS I can`t remember much about the syllabus we followed. One of the teachers was Jim `Doc` Halliday who was a leading light in the SNP at that time although they were very much a minority party then. I don`t recall his political views having an impact on his teaching though.
I do remember him appearing on a TV talk show of the time called `Sense and Nonsense`. At the end of term the school magazine mentioned it, saying that most participants talked sense whilst Mr Halliday provided the programme`s other essential ingredient.
Post Edited (Thu 05 Oct 13:44)
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Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy
Date: Fri 6 Oct 03:39
I havent seen the series so wasnt planning to comment but it seems Parboiled got his frillies in a twist that I didnt.
I do love how he likes to talk about "ravings" when he constantly posts Daily Mail and Daily Express snippets. Personally, I find the playing of the victim card quite funny as well.
My experience of living, working and studying in England was that it is a vastly different society to Scotland. The old folkes down there actually think the British empire was a good thing and have no knowledge of the crimes of the empire such as how India went from being one of the richest nations on earth to one of the poorest. I found it to be a society of moaners who had very little gumption to actually get things done or to learn from the outside world, which would probably explain why Neo Liberalism has stuck down there. And that was in Durham and Yorkshire. I simply got tired of the entitled "I have this position so you must respect me" nonsense which was quite rampant in the school system and just made the kids miserable. Nevermind the sheer corruption in the Trust system that runs the Schools and NHS down there! My whole experience of England was very much like a bunch of Parboileds in fact. And Id be willing to bet he has hee haw experience of actually working down there, but that certainly doesnt stop him demonstrating the same superiority complex. That said, it is quite entertaining seeing how much British incompetence he is willing to ignore and how much he hates the country hes scrounging his social benefits from allthewhile likely being blissfully unaware of how much worse the English actually have it than Scotland! Rave away Lime! 🤣
In terms of history at School, I remember doing Egypt, the Romans, the Victorians, WW1, WW2, Interwar Germany, Pre-Soviet Russia and an area that was "The growth of democracy in Britain". My High school teachers loved Russian and German history and I was actually going to do Adv Higher history until the rector cancelled - pretty sure the plan there was to do Bismarck era Germany. My school years were 96-03 and then 03-09.
At University I did extra courses that were a mix of History/Politics/Economics that encompassed the Visegrad Countries, Former Soviet Countries, India, China and Japan. These were all at Swedish Universities though (mainly Lund but some from Uppsala & Stockholm) and I remember Aberdeen having a much smaller and less broad selection of History and Politics courses and Scotland also doesnt have the unified module application system that Sweden does which makes it easy to do courses in different universities and simply transfer them across - Id actually quite like to see Scotland adopt the ECTS system going foward as it works well across the EEA.
Anyways, I need to gie this thing a watch - is it iPlayer?
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Topic Originator: Parboiled
Date: Fri 6 Oct 12:21
What an accomplished gentleman you are HJ, and that’s coming from one of those old “folkes” you so despise.
Didn’t do history at all at secondary school, it was mainly the sciences, maths and techy stuff to prepare me for a path I never took.
So, off to be a pen pusher in the Scottish Office at the tender age of 16 and 6 weeks whereupon I was granted day release at Lauder Tech, Thursdays as I recall, and gained O grades in History and Modern studies, Higher English and next session Highers in the other two.
Not much Scottish stuff, but as an avid reader in my early teens I devoured a lot of Nigel Tranter..the title of one of his books was a million quidder on yon quiz show. Oh how I wished I was in the seat. He got it wrong!
Post Edited (Fri 06 Oct 12:24)
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Topic Originator: Big T Par
Date: Sat 7 Oct 12:45
About fell off ma pouffe when The Big T got mentioned in episode 3. Apparently his ancestors stayed here.
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