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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Wed 6 Nov 00:42
I appreciate that ‘gaffe’ is a newspaper word which you never hear much in conversation but there are always a number of blunders made by political parties during the course of a campaign. Remember the Kinnock victory rally at Sheffield? Gordon Brown mouthing off about a bigoted voter unaware he was still miked up? Ed Miliband’s bacon sandwich? So I intend to keep an eye any major gaffes which occur in the course of Election 2019. Feel free to join in.
The Tory Party usually get off lightly in these matters but Rees-Mogg set the gaffe bar very high yesterday. His comments regarding the Grenfell Tower fire will be difficult to beat in the weeks to come.
1. He suggested that the victims died due to their own lack of commonsense. Rees-Mogg later explained this is not what he meant, but the idea of the Tories being an uncaring ‘nasty’ party is deeply entrenched in the UK and his comments will harden opinion.
2. Grenfell is the last thing Tories want on the front page since it exposes the rich/poor divide within London, where the PM was not so long ago Mayor. Cheap cladding which was not fire resistant just to make the place look good in the neighbourhood is not a pleasant story.
3. Rees-Mogg’s suggestion that we use commonsense instead of listening to ‘expert’ advice only throws attention back on who oversaw this advice: the Tory government. If they were so wrong about that, what is the value of any advice from them?
Rees-Mogg is a major Tory player, even being touted for PM not so long back and is seen as a leading Brexit player as well. Gaffe rating: 9/10.
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Wed 6 Nov 07:00
Showed himself to be what he is - a cold hearted Tory. A typical "I'm alright, Jack" waste of space.
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Topic Originator: BigJPar
Date: Wed 6 Nov 07:50
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Wed 6 Nov 09:33
And minister Alun Cairns, who denied knowing about a Welsh assembly candidate's role in "sabotaging" a rape trial, was emailed about it last year, BBC Wales has learned 6/10
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Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Wed 6 Nov 13:18
Might one properly refer to these people as "scum"?
The enemy travels by private jet, not by dinghy.
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Wed 6 Nov 13:31
Rees-Mogg's comment just confirms what I have always thought about him - that he doesn't live in the real world. The way he talks, the way he dresses, the way he perceives other people, all tell you that.
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Topic Originator: da_no_1
Date: Wed 6 Nov 13:50
Quote:
BigJPar, Wed 6 Nov 07:50
The people that vote for this vermin are just as bad as them.
OK then I'll bite......why?
"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Wed 6 Nov 13:52
BPP,
I think given Cairns has now been made to resign by Tory H.Q. makes it more 7/10 on the gaffometer. Johnson has high hopes of winning seats in Wales and Cairns bad decision could cost votes, so he had to go. A bit ironic given that lying is often second nature to many a politician but there it is.
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Wed 6 Nov 14:19
Ref: da_no_1
Wed 6 Nov 13:50
<<<Quote:
BigJPar, Wed 6 Nov 07:50
The people that vote for this vermin are just as bad as them.
OK then I'll bite......why?>>>
The question being, not why are people who 'vote for this vermin... just as bad as them' (because that doesn't get to the root of it), but what is it about BigJPars thinking that leads him to believe he is justified in saying so.
If we knew the answer to that it might help to reduce this and other forms of prejudice, and racism.
BigJPars,
While it might reinforce your identity and please some of your mates who also like to hurl insults I think calling all Tory voters scum is likely, if read by Tory voters, to strengthen their resolve and may even have the effect of increasing the Tory vote. I suspect that's the opposite of what you'd like, so is it really streetwise?
Post Edited (Wed 06 Nov 14:21)
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Topic Originator: BigJPar
Date: Wed 6 Nov 14:57
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Wed 6 Nov 15:44
Tory MP Andrew Bridgen defended Mr Rees-Mogg's comments telling the BBC they were "uncharacteristically clumsy."
"Jacob is a leader, he's an authority figure.
"What he's actually saying is that he would have given a better decision than the authority figures who gave that advice." 5/10
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Wed 6 Nov 15:55
A man running to be an MP in Reading has been criticised after his website mistook part of Scotland for the town.
Craig Morley, Conservative prospective parliamentary candidate (PPC) for Reading East, had a picture of Melrose Abbey in Scotland rather than Reading Abbey ruins on his homepage. 4/10
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Wed 6 Nov 20:27
Despite being the self-styled 'natural party of government' it's amazing how many Tories suffer from a lack of good judgement. In recent days we've had Rees-Mogg, Bridgen, Cairns, Davidson, Thomson but during recent administrations there have also been Patel, Fallon, Green, Fox who have all felt the need to resign for various indiscretions. I'm sure there will be others I've forgotten.
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Wed 6 Nov 21:15
BigJ, you say
<<< The people that vote for this vermin are just as bad as them...
Because they empower them >>>
What would you say about voters who vote for GE candidates that are defeated?
Are those voters equally guilty, even though their vote obviously doesn't empower the elected government?
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Topic Originator: BigJPar
Date: Wed 6 Nov 21:18
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Thu 7 Nov 00:52
Did I misunderstand you BigJ? You didn't mean all Tory voters, just the ones who sing the praises of 'JRM and the like.'
I think you're right about JRM. And Johnson. We've seen their true colours.
But my wife has friends who think Bojo is great. I'm sure they know nothing about the claim of many deaths due to austerity. It's hard to get friends in this world let alone perfect ones, so it's not something we can talk about. I think they're a bit shallow but then, I voted Labour when Blair was PM. Does that mean I've got blood on my hands over Afghanistan and Iraq?
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Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Thu 7 Nov 01:01
Blair was less brazen and it's understandable to me that people were taken in by him.
Johnston and Rees-Mogg are clearly and openly a pair of self serving scumbags and anybody who votes for them knows that and, by implication, supports it as a philosophy. That's not a quality that I seek in friends and I would actually be proactive about removing those people from my personal life.
I would, and have, however, worked in a professional, respectful and person-centred way with many people who have done awful things which damage society, including a few Tory voters.
The enemy travels by private jet, not by dinghy.
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Thu 7 Nov 08:17
Blair won three elections. One of them after 2003. Surely that makes Labour voters scum. Even the ones who voted for Brown as he also supported the Iraq war. Of course I don't actually believe that Labour voters are scum. As I have said before Nietzsche nailed it when he said 'The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently'.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Thu 7 Nov 14:34
Ref: Saint Wotsit
Thu 7 Nov 01:01
<<< Blair was less brazen and it's understandable to me that people were taken in by him.
Johnston and Rees-Mogg are clearly and openly a pair of self serving scumbags and anybody who votes for them knows that and, by implication, supports it as a philosophy. That's not a quality that I seek in friends and I would actually be proactive about removing those people from my personal life.
I would, and have, however, worked in a professional, respectful and person-centred way with many people who have done awful things which damage society, including a few Tory voters. >>>
Of course! How could I not see it?
Some of those who voted for Blair must have voted Tory in later GEs, or he wouldn't have got into office.
If they're Tories now, what were they then? Tories-who-voted-Labour of course because, being Tories, they were 'in the know' about Blair's Foreign policy actions and intentions (whereas true Labour voters were not and were therefore innocent) And being 'in the know', they figured that by voting for Blair they'd help to kill more poor folk even than if they voted Tory!
It's easy to know what each and every Tory voter thinks because they're identical clones who conform precisely to the ideas of Saint Wotsit!
Post Edited (Thu 07 Nov 16:51)
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Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Thu 7 Nov 18:30
I voted Labour for the first time ever at the last election because I thought that New Labour was a euphemism for Tory.
I think that answers your question?
(The answer is "yes" - people who enabled Tony Blair's middle Eastern torture camps and illegal wars should also have a good look at themselves and if someone were to brand them as scum I wouldn't go out of my way to disagree but I wouldn't bother doing so myself unless it was as a rhetorical tool to make a point about, say, perspective or lack thereof.)
The enemy travels by private jet, not by dinghy.
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Thu 7 Nov 20:42
Ref: Wotsit
Thu 7 Nov 18:30
You voted Labour because you thought 'New Labour' was a more polite term for 'Tory'? You've lost me there.
<<< if someone were to brand them as scum I wouldn't go out of my way to disagree but I wouldn't bother doing so myself unless it was as a rhetorical tool to make a point about, say, perspective or lack thereof.) >>>
Poor effort that to say nothing at all.
I suppose, taking your 'perspective' - or point of view, to put it more clearly - you look down on folk from such a great height that you're bound to think it'd fool somebody.
'Wackadoodle' there's a good word. A euphemism for 'deluded'? (A rhetorical question?)
Post Edited (Thu 07 Nov 21:02)
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Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Thu 7 Nov 21:01
Sorry, I thought it was clear:
I felt that New Labour were re-branded Tories which is why I didn't vote for them back then
Poor effort that to say nothing at all. Did you really think it would impress or fool anybody?
If you can't see, yet again, what I'm trying to say then I really don't know how to break it down for you any further so I'll just put it in bulletpoints:
- we had a discussion about how evidence had been presented that this government's policies have been found to have caused a spike in avoidable deaths.
- one of the people in the discussion, as part of a wider argument making many other, more pertinent point, used the word "scum"
- suddenly said poster's use of language was the focus of the discussion and the deadly policies were being ignored. On the Politics Forum. In favour of chastising somebody for their use of language.
- It has now infected other threads
- I accused you of showing a lack of perspective because you have allowed one person's use of language, with which you disapprove (I get that), to overshadow the topic at hand, which a reasonable perspective on what actually matters in life would suggest is more deserving of attention on a politics forum.
The enemy travels by private jet, not by dinghy.
Post Edited (Thu 07 Nov 21:02)
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Thu 7 Nov 22:13
Ref: Wotsit
Thu 7 Nov 21:01
No it's not one person's use of language, but the extreme prejudice against millions of people, labelling them as 'scum' who enable torture camps etc. And insisting they are as responsible as the PM and Cabinet for the government's actions and policies.
The public don't make or take part in votes on policy so their responsibility is very limited. It's not, as you and others seem to think, like a huge crowd of millions of people standing about egging on some bastards who are killing poor folk. It's more like millions of not very clued-up folk, making a decision, based on limited information, propoganda, tradition etc about who to vote for, knowing their vote counts for very little.
Are you innocent of the charges you make? Ever supported British Tory government policy via your taxes?
You think the subject of 'Hustings Gaffometer' matters more and <<< is more deserving of attention on a politics forum >>> than the issue of extreme prejudice?
Sounds like a 10/10 gaffe.
Post Edited (Thu 07 Nov 22:28)
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Thu 7 Nov 22:21
Ref: Wotsit
Thu 7 Nov 21:01
<<< I accused you of showing a lack of perspective because you have allowed one person's use of language, with which you disapprove (I get that), to overshadow the topic at hand, which a reasonable perspective on what actually matters in life would suggest is more deserving of attention on a politics forum. >>>
If it bothers you that I'm not sticking to the thread topic, why have you posted in response to my comments, when you could have kept on topic?
Another classic Wotsit 10/10 gaffe.
Post Edited (Thu 07 Nov 22:24)
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Topic Originator: BigJPar
Date: Thu 7 Nov 22:34
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Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Thu 7 Nov 22:51
Quote:
onandupthepars, Thu 7 Nov 22:21
Ref: Wotsit
Thu 7 Nov 21:01
<<< I accused you of showing a lack of perspective because you have allowed one person's use of language, with which you disapprove (I get that), to overshadow the topic at hand, which a reasonable perspective on what actually matters in life would suggest is more deserving of attention on a politics forum. >>>
If it bothers you that I'm not sticking to the thread topic, why have you posted in response to my comments, when you could have kept on topic?
Another classic Wotsit 10/10 gaffe.
It's not your divergence from the topic that bothers me, it's the specific direction in which you chose to go.
It shows lack of perspective.
The enemy travels by private jet, not by dinghy.
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Fri 8 Nov 00:17
Ref: Wotsit
Date: Thu 7 Nov 22:51
<<< It's not your divergence from the topic that bothers me >>>
Oho you can pretend you never said it. But there it is:
<<< you have allowed one person's use of language, [of] which you disapprove... to overshadow the topic at hand, which a reasonable perspective on what actually matters in life would suggest is more deserving of attention on a politics forum. >>>
For folk that prefer plain English, that's 'Wotsit-speak' for 'you've gone off topic.'
Not only are you mealy-mouthed Wotsit, you hopelessly try to weasel out of your gaffes. Besides being highly judgemental, prejudiced, arrogant and supercillious your English isn't all that good.
<<< It's not your divergence from the topic that bothers me, it's the specific direction in which you chose to go. It shows lack of perspective.>>>
See what I mean? Now, in case you didn't know, perspective means 'point of view'. Since I don't agree with everything you say, it is self-evident that I have a different point of view and my posts show it. Maybe you meant another word? Maybe you should try a different language? You should be a natural at Dutch since a lot of what you say is the 'double' variety.
Post Edited (Fri 08 Nov 10:08)
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Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Fri 8 Nov 01:19
Like I said; it wasn't your going off topic in and of itself, it was the perspective free direction in which you chose to drag a fairly meaty political discussion. Twice.
Nothing in what you quoted contradicts that.
I'm also going to point out that you have been using silly wee personal insults quite a lot in this thread. I know that you are very opposed to such behaviour and will no doubt be horrified to learn that you have been inadvertently doing it.
The enemy travels by private jet, not by dinghy.
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Fri 8 Nov 07:35
This thread is a mirror of the nation just now. A remain voter and a leave voter going at it hammer and tongs.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: BigJPar
Date: Fri 8 Nov 08:14
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Fri 8 Nov 08:58
Kirstene Hair looked like she was sooking a soor ploom.
The best point made during the programme was in response to the businessman who complained the electorate wasn't given key information from the 'leave' camp during the Scottish independence referendum. An Irishwoman in the audience pointed out that we'd just had a referendum in 2016 where the whole UK electorate had been given virtually no information from the 'leave' side.
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Fri 8 Nov 09:26
Quote :-
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Fri 8 Nov 07:35
This thread is a mirror of the nation just now. A remain voter and a leave voter going at it hammer and tongs.
Correct towk this thread was started by sammer to highlight any major gaffes leading up to the GE
not a thread for petty squabbling and personal opinions ..... ach weel
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Fri 8 Nov 09:54
Ref: Wotsit
Date: Fri 8 Nov 01:19
<<<I'm also going to point out that you have been using silly wee personal insults quite a lot in this thread. I know that you are very opposed to such behaviour and will no doubt be horrified to learn that you have been inadvertently doing it.>>>
Going off topic with that lot at a heck of a tangent and warp factor five!
When you're finished pouting and stamping your feet, have a look at one or two of your own ' personal insults' Such as
<<< I accused you of showing a lack of perspective >>> ,,,, <<< which a reasonable perspective on what actually matters in life >>>>
<<< I ACCUSED YOU! >>>
<<< A REASONABLE PERSPECTIVE! >>>
<<< ON WHAT ACTUALLY MATTERS IN LIFE >>>
OK so let's not make it personal.
You wanna dictate to me what I post about on someone else's thread. You accuse me of going off-topic when your own posts are nothing but off- topic dogma. Have a look at sermon 2, (Thu 7 Nov 01:01) from Wotsit's Big Book of Unobservations on Life.
You are unable - not only to accept - but even to DETECT another point of view, or 'perspective' as you call it, when it's put in front of you, e.g. mine:
<<< No it's not one person's use of language, but the extreme prejudice against millions of people, labelling them as (quote, Wotsit 7 Nov 18:30) - 'scum' who 'enable torture camps' etc. - and insisting they are as responsible as the PM and Cabinet for the government's actions and policies. >>>
But if you wanna stay off-topic and carry on the fun, it's OK by me. 😅
Post Edited (Fri 08 Nov 14:12)
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Fri 8 Nov 10:20
Ref: The One Who Knocks
Fri 8 Nov 07:35
<<< This thread is a mirror of the nation just now. A remain voter and a leave voter going at it hammer and tongs. >>>
A curious characterisation of an argument about extreme prejudice.
Also wrong, but that's only a minor point. 😅
Post Edited (Fri 08 Nov 10:21)
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Fri 8 Nov 10:50
Did you vote for Brexit as well?
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Fri 8 Nov 10:54
“Curiouser and curiouser!” Cried Alice (she was so much surprised, that for the moment she quite forgot how to speak good English).”* 😅
(― *From Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass)
Post Edited (Fri 08 Nov 10:56)
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Fri 8 Nov 11:08
Are all Labour voters remainers or leavers? Are all Tory voters leavers or remainers? Are all Labour voters nice or scum? Are all Tory voters scum or nice?
Post Edited (Fri 08 Nov 11:12)
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Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert
Date: Fri 8 Nov 12:03
BJ sticking his foot in it in Northern Ireland last night!🤪🤪🤪
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Fri 8 Nov 12:17
Yes, certainly an o.g. by Boris Johnson over in Northern Ireland. He as good as conceded that the Remain position was an excellent deal. I would say 8/10 on the gaffometer given that he is PM after all.
Johnson is often described as a great communicator but I am not so sure about this. I remember Michael Foot was considered a great speaker in the HoC but when he spoke in public was an uninspiring mumbler. Likewise, it seems to me that Johnson is good at telling his audience what they want to hear, but when he is in a more open forum such as PM Questions Time he shrinks away from debate. This is a man standing to lead a parliament he tried to close down. He may not be a very good campaigner either.
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Fri 8 Nov 12:34
Johnson just tells his current audience what he thinks they want to hear, whether truth or lies, and sod the consequences - just like Trump.
Politics has sunk so low even by normal standards, I think the situation is irretrievable.
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Fri 8 Nov 15:06
From the Independent today:
A video shows
"Boris Johnson, with Tory supporters and business owners in Northern Ireland last night.
One business man asks if he will have to fill in customs declaration forms. Johnson: 'You will absolutely not. If anybody asks you to do that (fill in a form), tell them to ring up the prime minister and I’ll direct them to throw that form in the bin'...
...'There will be no forms, no checks, no barriers of any kind.'
Johnson, as was clear from previous video, is contradicting what his Brexit secretary Steve Barclay has said about the Brexit deal.
Barclay had told MPs that 'targeted interventions' would be required on some goods leaving Northern Ireland for the British mainland."
source:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-news-live-general-election-brexit-corbyn-labour-polls-today-a9194501.html
Gaffometer score (too high to register)
Post Edited (Fri 08 Nov 15:26)
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Fri 8 Nov 16:14
Johnson’s uncertainty over what the custom arrangements are between Northern Ireland and the UK is certainly a 10/10 gaffe. He is going to the country on the basis of a Brexit that takes back control of our borders yet is now claiming there will be no controls over what enters the UK from NI. That means any old muck the EU want to dump because it fails to meet its own requirements can be shipped via Ireland into the UK. In broader terms what Johnson has described today amounts to a smugglers’ charter, which as were reminded last week includes people being trafficked.
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Fri 8 Nov 16:50
Think you need to do a gaffeometer chart sammer :-)
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Topic Originator: DBP
Date: Fri 8 Nov 18:25
Ignoring the fact he either doesn't actually understand the implications of his brexit deal (or is just saying what he thinks the crowd want to hear whether it's true or not)... This bit caught my eye,
Mr Johnson told his Northern Ireland Conservative supporters: "Northern Ireland has got a great deal.
"You keep free movement, you keep access to the single market but you also have, as it says in the deal, unfettered access to GB."
Well if that's a great deal then why can't we all have it?
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Fri 8 Nov 19:21
Civil service head Sir Mark Sedwill has dramatically blocked a Conservative plan to use civil servants to cost the Labour Party's fiscal plans.
The opposition had been infuriated by the government's plan to use the civil service to calculate the cost of Labour's announced policies, and release it as an official document.
One government insider called it a "Whitehall farce" occurring after the Chancellor had announced the document at Cabinet on Tuesday morning. They said it was an "established process" for a government to cost opposition policies in this way.
And previous Conservative and Labour Governments have indeed done this ahead of general elections and referendums, although there was not time to do this in 2017.
It has not in recent years been done days before the "purdah" period where civil servants are strictly restricted in their actions.
The opposition said it was a "scandal" and that the government had been caught "red handed" using civil servants in this way so close to an election, and at a time when the government has chosen not to do an economic assessment of its own landmark policy - the new Brexit deal.
This is where it all starts to make sense the Tory party have tried to publish the cost of the Labour Fiscal plan to influence the electorate. When in reality they don't even know the cost of their own plan or indeed the cost of their over the top preparation of a no deal Brexit where have the billions gone and to who and why......... I think we all know 9/10
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