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 contempt for Scotland
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Tue 7 Jan 17:05

Treated with contempt yet again

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-51019926
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 Re: contempt for Scotland
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Tue 7 Jan 17:57

I don't think it's disrespectful. It simply confirms what we already know - they don't have a clue!

These morons have been warned that we are massively unprepared for Brexit yet they soldier on. They're told of the devastating results of Brexit yet they soldier on. Half of England is under water and they soldier on. These guys care about nothing other than their bank balance.

What's funny about these right wing lot is they are almost always complete idiots. Look at the numpty MP in Australia who denied climate change. Your country is literally burning to the ground and he's still sat their claiming green policies are a waste of time.
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 Re: contempt for Scotland
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Tue 7 Jan 19:08

Good post jake89 canny argue with any of that ...Also don't forget their urgency to get out before the new tax evasion laws kick in
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 Re: contempt for Scotland
Topic Originator: desparado  
Date:   Tue 7 Jan 22:04

Tories have never cared a jot about the Scots or Scotland apart from the wealth we create of course.

“Where Scotland has been let down time and time again is by the SNP government - which is giving Scottish people the highest taxes in the UK and the worst set of public services.”

This quote from him is a complete lie. Most people in Scotland pay less tax than those in England and our public services are generally better. They get away with these falsehoods time and time again. Make no mistake they are determined to drag us down to their level. Their One Nation project. How dare the Scots make decisions for themselves.
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 Re: contempt for Scotland
Topic Originator: dafc  
Date:   Tue 7 Jan 22:16

If the tories were government here in Scotland there would be riots in the street the way the local councils are treated just now by SNP, cuts cuts and cuts while SNP stockpile money for a rainy day, all the while it's pouring on most Council services who are drowning. However these cuts hit the poorest who simply have no voice left to complain.
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 Re: contempt for Scotland
Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe  
Date:   Wed 8 Jan 01:11

Some people really don't realise how much worse they would be worse off with anything other than an SNP Government.

Zwei Pints Bier und ein Päckchen Chips bitte
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 Re: contempt for Scotland
Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy  
Date:   Wed 8 Jan 06:52

Dafc - what do you make of Labour saddling the Scottish Public sector with masses of debt through PFI and PPP? We're still seeing the ramifications of that as these schemes are intended to last about 30 years. SNP need to get their act together, of that there is no question and they bare responsibility for the council tax freeze, but feigning ignorance as to the origin of the problem won't wash. Labour took on PFI and PPP which was originally a Tory policy and have saddled the public sector with 30 years of rental debts because they didn't want to give borrowing powers to Holyrood. And you can hardly say the cuts from Westminster are the SNPs fault.
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 Re: contempt for Scotland
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Wed 8 Jan 07:53

Quote:

dafc, Tue 7 Jan 22:16

If the tories were government here in Scotland there would be riots in the street the way the local councils are treated just now by SNP, cuts cuts and cuts while SNP stockpile money for a rainy day, all the while it's pouring on most Council services who are drowning. However these cuts hit the poorest who simply have no voice left to complain.


Local authority funding was/is cut because of cuts from Westminster. Where is all this stockpiled money? Under a mattress in Bute house?
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 Re: contempt for Scotland
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Wed 8 Jan 09:22

Does Westminster provide Scottish councils with money? I always thought it was Holyrood.

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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 Re: contempt for Scotland
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Wed 8 Jan 10:06

Holyrood gets most of its funding via Westminster. So if WM decided to cut funding this then impacts on the Scottish Government budget and consequently local authority funding.

Despite what people think, council tax is a small percentage of council funding (around 25%). That 2-3k per year you pay doesn't touch the social care, education, waste, housing etc. budget needs.
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 Re: contempt for Scotland
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Wed 8 Jan 10:36

Couldn't Holyrood increase income tax to increase local authority funding?

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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 Re: contempt for Scotland
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Wed 8 Jan 11:19

Didn't it already do that?

We get better public services than they do in the rest of the UK. What people don't seem to understand is that we'll end up being the same eventually. What local authorities in Scotland are doing is salami slicing services rather than cutting. It's a bit like slowly peeling a plaster rather than ripping it. Still got the library but reduced hours to the point it's ineffective and eventually closes anyway.
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 Re: contempt for Scotland
Topic Originator: pacifist  
Date:   Sat 1 Feb 18:42

We have far better services in Scotland - local authorities in England have faced cuts to the tune of 45%. Their health service is failing. Be thankful we have Holyrood but we could do so much more with full control.
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 Re: contempt for Scotland
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Sat 1 Feb 21:08

Can I just add that the labour run Welsh NHS is probably worse than England's (which is worse than ours)
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 Re: contempt for Scotland
Topic Originator: dafc  
Date:   Sun 2 Feb 22:03

The SNP took a decision to freeze council tax for a number of years. That decision has crippled every local authority, if that decision was a Tory decision in Scotland there would be uproar. All the win votes. Now the poorer and those least fortunate are suffering with huge cuts in the majority of services.
Council tax was maybe being increases to easily and it should have been reigned in a bit not frozen.
Don't blame the Tory government the SNP have the cash, they made the call to freeze council tax, not labour not the Tories. SNP stock piling money while those who need it are simply waiting for services due to cuts.
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 Re: contempt for Scotland
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Sun 2 Feb 22:52

''SNP stock piling money while those who need it are simply waiting for services due to cuts.''

I thought the Scottish Government was required to balance its budget each year? What would be the point of 'stockpiling money' anyway?
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 Re: contempt for Scotland
Topic Originator: donj  
Date:   Sun 2 Feb 23:58

Not often I'll agree with a Tory but as I reckon you work for the council dafc.I guess services could be improved if less paid to top cats.
https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/fife/870906/councillor-challenges-fife-council-to-publish-list-of-top-earners-in-fat-cat-row/
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 Re: contempt for Scotland
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Sun 2 Feb 23:59

Quote:

dafc, Sun 2 Feb 22:03

The SNP took a decision to freeze council tax for a number of years. That decision has crippled every local authority, if that decision was a Tory decision in Scotland there would be uproar. All the win votes. Now the poorer and those least fortunate are suffering with huge cuts in the majority of services.
Council tax was maybe being increases to easily and it should have been reigned in a bit not frozen.
Don't blame the Tory government the SNP have the cash, they made the call to freeze council tax, not labour not the Tories. SNP stock piling money while those who need it are simply waiting for services due to cuts.


During the council tax freeze the money from central government was increased to every council area that more than covered what the increase would have been had it been in line with inflation.

The problem councils had with this was that some of the increase in funding from central government was ringfenced for certain things.
For example health and social care integration, also in education to reduce the attainment gap.
These were things councils had been ignoring but as they were Scottish Government policies the freezing of council tax and more funding from central government meant councils were forced to spend in areas where the SNP wanted.

While I support this policy I can see why councils didn't like being told where to spend the money.
The claim that councils had less to spend during this time though is a flat out lie.
They had more money just less freedom to decide where it was being spent.
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 Re: contempt for Scotland
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Mon 3 Feb 09:50

Quote:

sadindiefreak, Sun 2 Feb 23:59

Quote:

dafc, Sun 2 Feb 22:03

The SNP took a decision to freeze council tax for a number of years. That decision has crippled every local authority, if that decision was a Tory decision in Scotland there would be uproar. All the win votes. Now the poorer and those least fortunate are suffering with huge cuts in the majority of services.
Council tax was maybe being increases to easily and it should have been reigned in a bit not frozen.
Don't blame the Tory government the SNP have the cash, they made the call to freeze council tax, not labour not the Tories. SNP stock piling money while those who need it are simply waiting for services due to cuts.


During the council tax freeze the money from central government was increased to every council area that more than covered what the increase would have been had it been in line with inflation.

The problem councils had with this was that some of the increase in funding from central government was ringfenced for certain things.
For example health and social care integration, also in education to reduce the attainment gap.
These were things councils had been ignoring but as they were Scottish Government policies the freezing of council tax and more funding from central government meant councils were forced to spend in areas where the SNP wanted.

While I support this policy I can see why councils didn't like being told where to spend the money.
The claim that councils had less to spend during this time though is a flat out lie.
They had more money just less freedom to decide where it was being spent.


And considering Aberdeen council had racked up debts of £50m at the end of each year it sorted that out. Aberdeen council were guilty of using money where they fancied and then increasing the council tax for the next year to cover the previous years cost.

When the SNP froze the council tax Aberdeen had a debt of just under £75m which they couldn't recover because they couldn't increase the tax. This caused lots of cuts at the time. Things have settled down a bit now not least because the libdems are no longer in charge.
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 Re: contempt for Scotland
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Mon 3 Feb 18:11

Under Labour local authorities were spending money for fun. That's doesn't mean the freeze was good though. Councils have racked up massive LOBO debt. I'm sure Fife Council is around 2bn in debt. Around a quarter of your council tax goes on servicing debt.

Local authorities generally don't sack people so the approach has been to gradually phase out services as people leave rather than simply stopping services. They also have issues that there's an outcry when there's the slightest suggestion of closing resource. I remember being in the Kirkliston Local Office/Library. There were 4-5 staff in there and no actual people. I was there for 3 hours and the only person I saw was an old woman who was pals with a woman who worked behind the counter. If that was a bank branch it would be closed.
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 Re: contempt for Scotland
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Mon 3 Feb 20:06

Quote:

jake89, Mon 3 Feb 18:11

Under Labour local authorities were spending money for fun. That's doesn't mean the freeze was good though. Councils have racked up massive LOBO debt. I'm sure Fife Council is around 2bn in debt.


Jake are you saying Labour spending money for fun or the council tax freeze is the cause for the massive LOBO debt?
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 Re: contempt for Scotland
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Thu 6 Feb 07:40

No, the cause was government not allowing local authorities to borrow from Government.

My view is that budgets were cut too quickly for local authorities to respond. It's too political to stop services and they have no redundancy policies. How else do they make use the shortfall?
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 Re: contempt for Scotland
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Thu 6 Feb 07:55

Quote:

jake89, Thu 6 Feb 07:40

No, the cause was government not allowing local authorities to borrow from Government.

My view is that budgets were cut too quickly for local authorities to respond. It's too political to stop services and they have no redundancy policies. How else do they make use the shortfall?


So are you saying LOBO loans were to make up "shortfall" due to council tax freeze and that these loans were taken out because they could not borrow from the government?
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 Re: contempt for Scotland
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Thu 6 Feb 20:15

No, what I'm saying is that local authorities were bloated and overspending BUT within their budget. When the budgets were cut they were pushed towards LOBO borrowing. As mentioned, it's difficult for local authorities to cut their main expense - people.

In Fife and other councils there have been redundancies but they've involved tidy sums being paid. This means it'll be a while before any savings are realised.

Local authorities shouldn't be borrowing on LOBOs IMO.

Edited to add - the council tax freeze was supposedly coveted by the Government but in reality wasn't. It was combined with cuts to general funding. Some of this went unnoticed but people forget that £100k 10 years ago isn't the same as £100k now.

Post Edited (Thu 06 Feb 20:17)
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 Re: contempt for Scotland
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Thu 6 Feb 22:01

Quote:

jake89, Thu 6 Feb 20:15

No, what I'm saying is that local authorities were bloated and overspending BUT within their budget. When the budgets were cut they were pushed towards LOBO borrowing. As mentioned, it's difficult for local authorities to cut their main expense - people.

In Fife and other councils there have been redundancies but they've involved tidy sums being paid. This means it'll be a while before any savings are realised.

Local authorities shouldn't be borrowing on LOBOs IMO.

Edited to add - the council tax freeze was supposedly coveted by the Government but in reality wasn't. It was combined with cuts to general funding. Some of this went unnoticed but people forget that £100k 10 years ago isn't the same as £100k now.


I was just wanting to clarify what you thought before correcting you with reference to LOBO loans.

All LOBO loans in Fife were taken out before the council tax freeze even happened.
All but the final 2 were taken out under Labour administrations.
The final 2 under SNP/Lib Dems in the first year of their term were taken out to cover spending commitments left by Labour.

Even if they could have got loans from government the interest would have been greater than with LOBO loans.
LOBO were cheap loans at a time of high interest rates.
The problem with them is that they can be recalled in full at any time. Since borrowing is relatively cheap now LOBO rates look high but are unlikely to be recalled.

You keep saying funding was cut during the council tax freeze.
It was NOT.
Funding increase in line with inflation the problem was some of the extra cash from central government was ringfenced for projects administered by local government but which were central government policies.
This resulted in shortfalls in things the councils wanted to do themselves. But I can't stress this enough, overall funding for the councils went up in line with inflation or more.

Here is a link to a FOI request about Fife councils LOBO loans.
You can see from this the final loans were taken out before the council tax freeze.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/lobo_loans_5
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 Re: contempt for Scotland
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Fri 7 Feb 07:45

Misquoted me on this. I didn't say council tax freezes were the reason, I said they were potentially needed but not helpful.

Derek Mackay (yes, him!) did a fantastic job of claiming budget increases. As you've suggested, this included unpopular ring fenced funds. It also included fresh demands for delivering services. One of the largest being around nursery places. So, really, cuts.

What we can see is a doubling of free hours. Personally, I think this is great. However, it isn't practical when put upon the current facilities and staff. Councils are having to invest in new buildings and new staff. Firsthand experience of how this has worked in Dunfermline and I can advise it is a total and utter farce.
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 Re: contempt for Scotland
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Fri 7 Feb 11:16

Quote:

jake89, Thu 6 Feb 20:15

No, what I'm saying is that local authorities were bloated and overspending BUT within their budget. When the budgets were cut they were pushed towards LOBO borrowing.


The reason I pushed you on LOBO was to clarify your position.
Above you say when budgets were cut they were pushed toward LOBO loans.

You also claim budgets were cut through the council tax freeze.

You can understand why I concluded you thought the loans were at least in some way due to council tax freeze.

You must be saying there were cuts to councils while Labour were in control in Holyrood and Westminster then as the loans started in 2001 through to 2007.
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 Re: contempt for Scotland
Topic Originator: renegade master  
Date:   Sat 8 Feb 00:13

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 Re: contempt for Scotland
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Sat 8 Feb 08:40

They've also just had budgets cut AGAIN due to the new services being told to be delivered.

When I'm getting my kitchen redone I'll get Nicola in to negotiate the price. That way I'll get the builder to spend 10k on materials and I can only pay them 8k. Legend.
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 Re: contempt for Scotland
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Sat 8 Feb 09:57

Quote:

renegade master, Sat 8 Feb 00:13

£141m left of budget in 18/19.

https://news.gov.scot/speeches-and-briefings/ministerial-statement-provisional-budget-outturn-2018-19

£4.4m per council (32) would certainly have helped fill a few potholes!


Let's put 141m into perspective.
It's like if you went out to buy a car for £1000 and came home with £4.40 left over.
It seems a lot but in the scale of things its peanuts.

Fortunately since the SNP have been in charge and get the rules changed budget underspends are retained and carry over into the next year.
Under the previous Labour governments an average annual underspend of £1.6 billion was returned to Westminster.
Using the £1000 car analogy again that's £50 left over but instead of keeping it to spend on other things Labour were happy to give it away.
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 Re: contempt for Scotland
Topic Originator: renegade master  
Date:   Sat 8 Feb 11:54

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 Re: contempt for Scotland
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Sat 8 Feb 13:51

Quote:

renegade master, Sat 8 Feb 11:54

But why keep it and not distribute to local struggling councils?


Why not give it to NHS budget or education or for roads or to improve rural communities. Why give it to local councils to squander.

I'm sure it will be used for lots of things but why should councils be first in line?
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 Re: contempt for Scotland
Topic Originator: renegade master  
Date:   Sat 8 Feb 15:47

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 Re: contempt for Scotland
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Sat 8 Feb 17:41

SG costs very little in the grand scheme of things.
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 Re: contempt for Scotland
Topic Originator: renegade master  
Date:   Sat 8 Feb 19:13

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 Re: contempt for Scotland
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Sat 8 Feb 20:54

Quote:

renegade master, Sat 8 Feb 15:47

Moviescot

Are you actually serious?

You are trying to make points on a a politics forum without understanding that the local councils are in charge of non trunk roads, education budget and local spending on NHS resources?

Nearly all Government money has to go through the local councils to reach frontline services.

Guess what before the Scottish Parliament Westminster through the Sottish office used to hand out the full Scottish allowance to the local councils.

That's when we had weekly bin collections, a decent maintained road network, an education system which was the envy of the World. A frontline hospital in every major town.

The Barnett formula is based on per head of population, as our population has increased yet spending given to the councils has decreased due the Scottish Government being in charge of those funds!

Where does it go? A vast proportion to pay for MSPs, Parliment and all infrastructure to support it.
🙄🙄🙄


Blah blah blah!!!!
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 Re: contempt for Scotland
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Sat 8 Feb 20:59

Quote:

renegade master, Sat 8 Feb 19:13

129 MSP's+ staff +housing+travel+pension+expenses+security
Plus a Parliment+maintenance+security+amenities!
Staff, services, food, drink, dignitaries, msp offices!
Very Little?

All to do what was done at Westminster where we have 59 MPs claiming the same as above and doing the square route of ............

188+ staff with their nose in a trough taking money away from frontline services here in Scotland!

You wonder why it is never debated or scrutinised? It is like debating to put yourself out of the easist money (£63000 Scotland) (£80,000 Westminster) you have ever earned.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSPs%27_salaries,_expenses_and_allowances


Funnily enough not much mention of councils in the way NHS funding is managed.

The Scottish Government decides what resources are to be devoted to the NHS, in the context of devolved public expenditure. Of approximately £34.7 billion controlled by the Scottish Government, around £11.9 billion is spent on health*.

The Scottish Government sets national objectives and priorities for the NHS, signs delivery plans with each NHS Board and Special NHS Board, monitors performance, and supports Boards to ensure achievement of these key objectives.

NHS Boards in Scotland are all-purpose organisations: they plan, commission and deliver NHS services and take overall responsibility for the health of their populations. They therefore plan and commission hospital and community health services including services provided by GPs, dentists, community pharmacists and opticians, who are independent contractors.

There are 14 NHS Boards covering the whole of Scotland.  In addition, seven national or ‘special’ NHS Boards provide national services and the healthcare improvement body – Healthcare Improvement Scotland – provides scrutiny and public assurance of health services.

NHS Boards work closely with their partners including patients, staff, local authorities and the voluntary sector to deliver effective healthcare services and to safeguard and improve the health of their residents.

At local level, there are community health partnerships or community health and social care partnerships covering all areas of Scotland. These are committees of NHS Boards and have formal structures that ensure close involvement of local authorities, patients and the public
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 Re: contempt for Scotland
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Sat 8 Feb 21:37

After devolution wasn't it the case that Regional Councils were done away with so there were savings to offset the cost of the Scottish Parliament?
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 Re: contempt for Scotland
Topic Originator: renegade master  
Date:   Sat 8 Feb 22:41

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 Re: contempt for Scotland
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sat 8 Feb 23:02

The central base? Fife has a population of around 360k and its length is about 45 miles. Its hardly as if the people who live in Kirkcaldy and Glenrothes are out of touch and cannot relate to the problems of people in Dunfermline or vice versa.

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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 Re: contempt for Scotland
Topic Originator: renegade master  
Date:   Sat 8 Feb 23:42

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 Re: contempt for Scotland
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sat 8 Feb 23:47

So if they had done those things then the residents of Kirkcaldy and Glenrothes would of had a grievance instead correct? When difficult decisions have to be made some people are going to beeft disappointed.

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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 Re: contempt for Scotland
Topic Originator: renegade master  
Date:   Sun 9 Feb 00:13

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 Re: contempt for Scotland
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sun 9 Feb 00:30

Why do businesses in Dunfermline pay higher rates than those in Kirkcaldy or Glenrothes?



And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed

Post Edited (Sun 09 Feb 00:31)
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 Re: contempt for Scotland
Topic Originator: renegade master  
Date:   Sun 9 Feb 00:33

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 Re: contempt for Scotland
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Sun 9 Feb 09:42

So, just to be clear - The Scottish Government is a wasteful resource as we already have MPs in Westminster, but we should have retained 4 councils (3 local, 1 regional) in Fife?

Aren't the rates the same for the whole region? Where it would change would be the rateable value (essentially the value of the property). Without being rude, I'd imagine it'd be more desirable to have a property in Dunfermline than Glenrothes!

I won't argue about Fife Council being focussed on Central Fife, but, in fairness, it's an area that needs support. However, giving the likes of Kirkcaldy a lick of paint won't change things. Fife Council signed Kirkcaldy High Street's death warrant when it allowed changes to permissions at Fife Central Retail Park to all the likes of Next and M&S to open there. Interestingly, they rejected permission for B&Q to open a warehouse where Dobbies is now.
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 Re: contempt for Scotland
Topic Originator: renegade master  
Date:   Sun 9 Feb 11:11

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 Re: contempt for Scotland
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Sun 9 Feb 20:27

Rates look much the same to me. Some are high, some are low. I'd be interested in how they value properties. Would certainly imagine rates are higher in Dunfermline, especially compared to the likes of Glenrothes. Last time I was in the Kingdom Centre it felt manky. They'd just finished those hideous units for Food Warehouse at the time. Kirkcaldy is just as bad. Folk will moan about Dunfermline but it's still a better visit than Glenrothes, Kirkcaldy or Perth.
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 Re: contempt for Scotland
Topic Originator: Socks  
Date:   Sun 9 Feb 22:32

Kirkcaldy would benefit far more from a station on the East side of the town than it would from a 3rd station in Dunfermline (really a 4th, as much of Dunfermline is best served by Rosyth station). The East side of Kirkcaldy is particularly badly served by transport, which is very frustrating when the railway line goes right through the area.

Not sure what the issue is with parking. Dunfermline town centre seems to have an exemption from Sunday parking charges as it is - certainly free when I was in Dunfermline library a couple of weeks back.

I don't think there's been huge spending on projects in Kirkcaldy recently. There was the new paving on the high street which is actually quite nice, but probably not a lot of use as it's completely dead down there. There was also the new leisure centre, 2013 I think it was. This certainly cost a bit, but all it did was provide facilities similar to those that people in Glenrothes, Dunfermline and Cowdenbeath have enjoyed for many years. I'm very glad it was built and I use it several times a week, but Kirkcaldy is still the worst-provisioned of the three main towns in Fife, and by a long way. The Michael Woods centre in Glenrothes is a great facility, while Dunfermline has the recently refurbished centre in Pilmuir St with it's two swimming pools, the smaller but still good Duloch leisure centre which I use occasionally when I'm over, and the outdoor and indoor track at Pitreavie.

We all have feelings of annoyance about things we see in nearby towns but not our own...
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