DAFC.net
Home 16 April 2024 
 Post Message  |  Top of Board  |  Search  |  Log In   Forum Rules  |  Newer Topic  |  Older Topic  |  end 
[ please login to use the Like feature ]
 Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Wed 29 Nov 14:48

Hi Dave 1885, I hope you won`t mind me starting this part two thread to follow on from your "Palestine/Israel" one, because I hope you agree it`s becoming cumbersomely long.


Ref: OzPar, Palestine/Israel thread, Wed 29 Nov 04:17

Another very well written post, I agree with everything in it, and I was prompted by it to follow up on the meaning of the term you have used - "the Zionist Dream." Rather than go into that now, I think what Gideon Levy says, in the video you linked previously, is more interesting.

To hear it from someone who’s been there, gives it straight and easy to grasp, it’s a must watch:

Gideon Levy interview https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWwMa1t0aNY



He is an Israeli Jew who reports on what he’s seen and experienced, stuff that’s not given much coverage in Israeli media.

He says he was brought up as a Jew, to believe that Palestinians only want to drive them into the sea and to kill. But in his twenties, he started to work as a journalist for Haaretz (Israeli newspaper), and a friend suggested they go to see about a Palestinian who claimed the Israeli army ripped out all her olive trees.

Gradually, as he saw more and more of hostilities towards Palestinians, he came to realise that what he’d been told to believe was wrong and that, although Israel is portrayed as being like a liberal western democracy, with western values, it isn’t like that at all.

He says most Europeans aren’t ready to criticize Israel because the moment they do they’re labelled “anti-semitic.”


Ozpar –

By the end of the "Zionist Dream,” do you mean because there can only be a one state solution? i.e. no Jews-only homeland? Not least because, as Levy says, there are half a million Jews living in West Bank, who would have to re-locate?

The way forward is to end the apartheid – he says you can go to a Palestinian village, next to a Jewish one, Palestinians don’t have any rights, not even citizenship. There must be equal rights.

Simple enough in theory.


Refs:

(1) OzPar, Palestine/Israel thread started by Dave 1885, Wed 29 Nov 04:17

(2) Red reality - Gideon Levy - Israel Palestine; The one state solution
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWwMa1t0aNY

(3) Zionist Dreams
https://archive.jewishagency.org/jewish-social-action/

(4) Land of Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_of_Israel

Post Edited (Wed 29 Nov 16:06)
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Thu 30 Nov 06:07

Yes, onandupthepars, by "the end of the Zionist Dream", I mean the establishment of a single state where everyone in that state has equal rights. Call it Israel, call it Palestine-Israel, call it what you like. I rather like the idea that it could be called The Holy Land.

The concept of an ethno-state (as in the Jewish state) is ludicrous in the modern world, especially a state that is founded on theft and operates through apartheid. It is time to change the conversation from the fictitious two-state solution to something complicated but achievable.

We are a long way from a single-state solution today, and support for it is small on both sides, but it is growing. We must give it time.

There will be several steps to such a solution, and the first and most important will be to get rid of the ultra-right-wing Netanyahu coalition government. The international community has a crucial role here. There needs to be widespread international pressure placed on both Israel and Hamas and, for that matter, the USA, UK and any other governments that unwaveringly support Israel. Significant concessions will have to be made from both sides and in time, a South Africa-style Peace & Reconciliation Commission will need to be set up. The wounds on both sides are deep and 75 years long; the only way to heal them is through an open and honest process like this.

For inspiration, the Israelis and Palestinians can look to South Africa, Yugoslavia, and Northern Ireland, all of which, not so very long ago, were regarded as basket cases that would be impossible to fix.

Here, it is essential to remember the adage: No problem is insurmountable.

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Fri 1 Dec 22:30

Yeh OzPar, you put that very clearly and well, and even though things look diabolical now for Palestinians and Israelis, and are heart-rending for us as bystanders, I agree there must be hope to be gained from reflecting on those successes. I never believed the Berlin wall would ever come down, or that apartheid would end in South Africa, among other things. Whoever would have thought that mass fag smoking would disappear in the space of a few years - it seemed there was too much money to be made to stop it, but it has gone, so even when we think vested interests in the status quo are too great, it`s not always the case.

Given that there are fesible solutions to the Palestinian/Israeli problem, then it`s incumbent on us to contibute to them if we can. All I know is that I can write to my MP, and express my support for a one-state solution and for withdrawal of UK support from Nehanyatu`s government.

Got any other suggestions, besides helping the humanitarian aid charities? which is something also necessary besides lobbying the govt.

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Fri 1 Dec 22:54

Writing to your MP, an exercise in handwringing.

As a reluctant supporter of the Berlin Wall as a peace barrier (unlike present day Ukraine) and a 30 fags a day man I can`t share OAUTP`s optimism about human progress. ``Give me back my Berlin Wall, Give me Stalin and St. Paul,`` as a Canadian songwriter sang back in the late 1990s.

But OAUTPs understands that every western citizen is paying for weapons to be sent into the area- not to the Gaza citizens who have no army- but to the Israeli army who enjoy one of then most impressive militaries in the region! David and Goliath does not come into this narrative.

And this is in order to kill Palestinians more effectively than is already happening. Where were the alleged tunnels under the hospitals? Where are the beheaded babies? MSM has been struck dumb. The slaughter must continue and the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from their homeland accomplished. At least the Native American Indians got a few reservations: the Palestinians will be lucky to be given a desert.

No matter, Sunak and Starmer are united in this noble cause, and those on the streets opposing it on grounds of human decency are labelled terrorists. OAUTPs` one state solution, which is the only logical route forward after the failure of the two state solution, might get him in trouble with his bank or his employer.

Sometimes you get the feeling that something is wrong somewhere.

sammer
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Sun 3 Dec 10:40

Right now, Israelis are very hard to like. One hopes there is a peaceful settlement to this dreadful situation, but the longer Netanyahu is allowed to punish the Palestinians without any comeback from the West, the greater the likelihood that this horror show will develop into a nightmare not just for the Palestinians, but for the Israelis.

In that event, there is no way neighbouring Arab nations won`t join the fray. If they do, Israel will be wiped off the face of the earth.

America has a lot to answer for, but I wonder if the powers that be in Washington grasp just how damaging US support for Israel is going to be. Coupled with the disaster that is Ukraine where Russia is on the verge of an enormous victory, we may well be watching the closing scenes of the US empire. Power is shifting to the east.

The irony of all this is that the hubris of Zionism will not kill Palestine, it will kill America, and very likely what we know as the UK too.

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Sun 3 Dec 11:12

If "what we know as the UK" is clinging onto a long dead empire then it can`t come any sooner. The pathetic superiority complex the UK has held it back for decades and it`s time it was stopped.
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sun 3 Dec 12:43

Makes you wonder why Australia has thrown it`s security lot in with America then. Also I suggest that there is every likelihood that no Arab nations will join the fray so I can`t see Israel being wiped off the face of the earth. Any how it`s unlikely any nuclear armed nation will be erased from existence by military means by non nuclear states.

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Sun 3 Dec 17:54

Yes, it does make me wonder why Australia has thrown its security lot with America when the bulk of our interests are in Asia, particularly Japan, Korea and China. You will get no argument from me on that, TOWK.

But I think your blind support for Israel in the current circumstances is naive and misguided.

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
-
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sun 3 Dec 18:44

Not blind support. I just don`t think you are correct when you say Arab nations are primed and able to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. I`m sure we`d both be aghast if that genocide were to happen though.

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Sun 3 Dec 19:00

I wouldnt defend anyone who commits genocide. I want Zionism to be eradicated, not Israel. Zionism has developed into an evil cancer as can be seen by what is happening in Gaza right now.

An Israel that incorporates equal rights for everyone, tears down the walls and fences, returns to pre-1967 borders, and hands back stolen land, has every right to a place in the family of nations.

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sun 3 Dec 19:14

Can`t see a return to pre 1967 borders especially if you are correct about an enormous victory imminent for Russia in their war of conquest over Ukraine.

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Sun 3 Dec 19:22

Quote:

The One Who Knocks, Sun 3 Dec 19:14

Can`t see a return to pre 1967 borders especially if you are correct about an enormous victory imminent for Russia in their war of conquest over Ukraine.


He seems fine with genocide when it`s against Ukrainians.
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Sun 3 Dec 21:33

No, I don`t support Russia. Just being a realist and stating facts. Russia is about to defeat Ukraine. This truth has deliberately been hidden from us.

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Mon 4 Dec 07:39

It is important to address the "elephant in the room" that TOWK mentioned, Israel`s nuclear capability.

The assumption that Israel is the only country in the region with nuclear weapons is wrong. Pakistan has nukes (as does India) and has pledged that it will provide Turkey with warheads if a conflict with Israel is imminent.

By persisting with the obscenities that are taking place in Gaza, the Israelis are doing something no one else in history has ever achieved: they are uniting the Sunnis and the Shiites, helping to create a Muslim alliance that would blow the Israelis back into the Stone Age.

Who would be in the alliance? Lebanon with Hizbullah, Turkey, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Yemen, Pakistan, Jordan (with 300,000 resident Palestinian refugees), and Egypt. The last two would be reluctant to join but would face enormous internal pressure from their populous to do so. Several North African and Gulf states, Malaysia and Indonesia potentially could join in too.

The US and Britain would be well advised to steer clear of this. Israel is currently set on a suicidal trajectory. Leave well alone, for if they don`t, then the Strait of Hormuz will close, the Suez Canal will close, and flights from Europe to the Indian Subcontinent, Asia, Australia and New Zealand, will have to be massively diverted. Oil, gas, food, just-in-time manufacturing, spare parts, etc., will be delayed and in very short supply.

Crazy as it seems, these are the smaller issues that could result from this conflict.

But the critical issue here is... TIME!

This could all blow up in our faces within the next fortnight. No one is talking about it yet, but they will pretty damn soon unless something is done to stop Netanyahu`s mad suicidal dance.

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Mon 4 Dec 10:32

I reckon and hope that`s just a load of hyperbole. I have no desire to see cities in the middle east reduced to smoldering rubble after a nuclear exchange. Time will tell if you are correct though about this grand alliance Oz.

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: parsfan  
Date:   Mon 4 Dec 14:51

Quote:

OzPar, Mon 4 Dec 07:39

It is important to address the "elephant in the room" that TOWK mentioned, Israel`s nuclear capability.

The assumption that Israel is the only country in the region with nuclear weapons is wrong. Pakistan has nukes (as does India) and has pledged that it will provide Turkey with warheads if a conflict with Israel is imminent.

By persisting with the obscenities that are taking place in Gaza, the Israelis are doing something no one else in history has ever achieved: they are uniting the Sunnis and the Shiites, helping to create a Muslim alliance that would blow the Israelis back into the Stone Age.

Who would be in the alliance? Lebanon with Hizbullah, Turkey, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Yemen, Pakistan, Jordan (with 300,000 resident Palestinian refugees), and Egypt. The last two would be reluctant to join but would face enormous internal pressure from their populous to do so. Several North African and Gulf states, Malaysia and Indonesia potentially could join in too.

The US and Britain would be well advised to steer clear of this. Israel is currently set on a suicidal trajectory. Leave well alone, for if they don`t, then the Strait of Hormuz will close, the Suez Canal will close, and flights from Europe to the Indian Subcontinent, Asia, Australia and New Zealand, will have to be massively diverted. Oil, gas, food, just-in-time manufacturing, spare parts, etc., will be delayed and in very short supply.

Crazy as it seems, these are the smaller issues that could result from this conflict.

But the critical issue here is... TIME!

This could all blow up in our faces within the next fortnight. No one is talking about it yet, but they will pretty damn soon unless something is done to stop Netanyahu`s mad suicidal dance.


Really?

You claim realism for your prediction in what`s about to happen in Ukraine then come out with that.

Well, we won`t have long to wait to find out with one being imminent and the other within the next two weeks. I can`t see either happening, but we`ll know by Christmas whether to start calling you Noztradamus or not.

So, what is it you want? On Thursday it was a one state solution and yesterday the pre-67 borders. That was a four state solution and the Palestinians didn`t have their own country then either.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The universe is ruled by chance and indifference



[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Mon 4 Dec 17:29

Quote:

OzPar, Sun 3 Dec 19:00

I wouldnt defend anyone who commits genocide. I want Zionism to be eradicated, not Israel. Zionism has developed into an evil cancer as can be seen by what is happening in Gaza right now.

An Israel that incorporates equal rights for everyone, tears down the walls and fences, returns to pre-1967 borders, and hands back stolen land, has every right to a place in the family of nations.


There is absolutely no way Israel will give up the Golan Heights.

Regardless of the rights and wrongs since 1967 they would not ever countenance the Syrians threatening them from there again.

They won’t agree to a demilitarised zone there either under UN control.

Post Edited (Mon 04 Dec 17:30)
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Mon 4 Dec 18:36

This isn`t about being Nostradamus, it is about monitoring reports outside the mainstream media in the West that provide different perspectives to what we are being fed.

In my defence, I have had a pretty good record so far of reporting on here, days before the MSM, the lies that had been spread by Israel about some of the events on October 7. And I firmly stand by my comment that Russia has defeated Ukraine. The evidence is there if you care to look for it.

You have to be incredibly naive to believe that the Muslim populations in neighbouring countries are not now spoiling for a fight with Israel. They want to avenge the slaughter that is currently taking place in Gaza. Check out the scale of the marches and demonstrations that have taken place in Cairo, Damascus, and Amman. The leaders in these countries are struggling to keep a lid on this boiling pot. Check out what Turkey`s President Erdogan is saying.

My comments about pre-1967 borders clearly were tongue in cheek in the sense that we all know Israel would never agree to this, or the other points, without considerable external pressure. Thus, as I have often argued, Israel should stay outside the "family of nations" until it addresses the inequalities.

And as regards my comments on the downstream effects of this genocide in Gaza, these are all absolutely credible outcomes should third parties enter the fray. We are already seeing activity in the Red Sea from Yemen. Whether it is a fortnight, Christmas, New Year, is irrelevant. The point is that if Netanyahu does not stop, it will not be long before others move to stop him. Hopefully, this will be done internally, rather than externally.

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Mon 4 Dec 21:50

Reports outside the mainstream media. 🤣😂🤣😂
So propaganda and/or conspiracy nutters.
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Mon 4 Dec 23:29

Sneer as much as you like, SIF. You don`t bother me in the slightest. There are plenty of quality analyses to be found outside the UK and American MSM. Al Jazeera and DW for instance, but also, a host of independents who are a million miles from your "propaganda and/or conspiracy nutters".

Let`s just see how events develop over the coming weeks. Shall we? But in the meantime, educate yourself and take a bite of reality with these...


RUSSIA-UKRAINE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5WYOv0Bk1w&t=96s


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ud6-2zks2Co



ISRAEL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUZj-x2PQeM


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6G14d8l5oN0

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Tue 5 Dec 00:11

Oh Oh! Even Tucker Carlson concedes that the Ukraine-Russia war is over, and peace talks are imminent.

Well, well, well...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqSLdlLBE-M

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Tue 5 Dec 21:59

Quote:

OzPar, Tue 5 Dec 00:11

Oh Oh! Even Tucker Carlson concedes that the Ukraine-Russia war is over, and peace talks are imminent.

Well, well, well...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqSLdlLBE-M


Tucker Carlson has supported Russia from the start. If white supremacist far right extremists like him are your source I think Ukraine will do just fine.
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Tue 5 Dec 22:20

`Tucker Carlson has supported Russia from the start.`

That`s not correct. Carlson opposed the Russian SMO when it started in February 2022.

Carlson`s views are a dog`s breakfast on most issues and barely worth any attention. However he retains that one American ingredient burned into the core of the national psyche: he loves winners and hates losers. As Dylan wrote some years back: `You always like to be on the side that`s winning.`

sammer
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Tue 5 Dec 22:51

Quote:

sammer, Tue 5 Dec 22:20

`Tucker Carlson has supported Russia from the start.`

That`s not correct. Carlson opposed the Russian SMO when it started in February 2022.

Carlson`s views are a dog`s breakfast on most issues and barely worth any attention. However he retains that one American ingredient burned into the core of the national psyche: he loves winners and hates losers. As Dylan wrote some years back: `You always like to be on the side that`s winning.`


Are you actually capable of posting anything without f***ing lying?
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Tue 5 Dec 22:54

Proof Tucker Carlson supported Russia from the beginning.

https://youtu.be/WSuwiOe2dA0?si=R5Zm927n2FV-F5Z2
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Tue 5 Dec 23:44

SIF fails, as often before, to distinguish between what he believes people are saying and what they are actually saying. Carlson opposed the Russian SMO at the time although Haaretz, the only Israeli newspaper worth the name, claimed his opposition was ‘perfunctory.’ That is probably on the mark since Carlson is a Trump MAGA man and has no more sympathy for the average Ukrainian citizen than Biden, Sullivan, Blinken or Nuland.

Carlson’s appreciation of the Russian position (for which he is earmarked as a traitor) is equally superficial and rooted in his mania to protect America’s borders first and foremost. Every dollar spent on Ukraine is a dollar not spent on Homeland Security in Carlson’s world.

Russia is happy to use Carlson’s dog’s breakfast analysis for propaganda purposes but the reality on the ground in Ukraine will justify his words more than any TV station. Russia knows Carlson has no love for Russia but acknowledges he has sloughed off the cold war hatred that was imbued into most western citizens since at least 1917. Others have been slower to undergo this process. Listening to SIF’s US TV clip was like listening to Blair at the start of the Iraq war. It has not aged well.

sammer
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Wed 6 Dec 02:06

Ref: sammer Tue 5 Dec 22:20



"...the Russian SMO...started in February 2022."

-------------------------------------------------------------

Sadistic Maniac`s Onslaught



,
B.N. - You really fooled them with that "SMO," Vlady.

V.P. - You know what it really means, Benjie baby? Suck My Oojah! Hah!Hah!



Post Edited (Wed 06 Dec 16:42)
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Thu 7 Dec 11:43

Before the pause, I almost posted that I feared once Netanyahu had cleared the north of Gaza, he`d do the same to the south. Naw, I thought, that`s just being alarmist.

Because it is happening, it has pretty much destroyed my picture of worst case scenario.

What`s next? Clear Gaza entirely of Palestinians - and rebuild it for Israelis only? And after that, set about removing Palestinians from West Bank? By a different approach, (too many Jews living there to turn it to rubble.) That`s a one state solution that I think has probably at least crossed Netanyahu`s mind.

These are my fears, now that the bounds of what`s possible have burst completely with the massacre continuing in the south of Gaza.

As for Ukraine, Europe and ourselves here at home, and in response to Jake`s post of Sun 3 Dec 11:12, I`d better start another thread.

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy  
Date:   Thu 7 Dec 17:59

Interesting that Sammer shied away from the Oryx link on the other thread but continued to spout off on here. Auld men cannae deal with hard truths I guess.

Honestly, I find it funny how the CCP and Putin shills (who give a masterclass in being uninformed clowns) like Sammer want to label people like me a "NATO Man". Frankly, I`d rather that a peaceful future for my son was secure and that NATO was not needed, but the existence of gangsters like Putin and Xi who are only out to protect their own stolen Billions mean that will not be the case in my lifetime. Funnily enough, more and more Russians are beginning to wonder how a country with the vast resources of Russia hasn`t at least reached the same level of development as Poland since 1991.

As it stands, the Ukrainians are taking down modern Russian drones using 1970s German Gepards, which is quite hilarious if you understand how these weapons work. The Russians are taking huge casualties in Avdiivka and have hardly advanced. The approach seems to be to send untrained"cannon fodder" units forward containing a few artillery spotters to draw Ukrainian fire and target positions, but this is still not resulting in much success.

Considering how "competent" the Russian military was considered before February 2022, the Ukrainian defence of their country can be considered nothing short of heroic. F16s are about to enter the fray and the vast majority of the Ukrainian Western MBTs haven`t even been deployed yet.

Yes, funding is being held up in the US at the moment by "Y`all Qaeda" Republicans but the fairytale of 140Mn-strong Russia landing a sucker punch on the 450Mn-stong EU plus 350Mn-strong US with their collective economic might is absolute folly. Russia simply does not have the economic or technological base to defeat Ukraine outright, let alone the countries that are supplying Ukraine.

China is on the verge of economic collapse (which is only avoidable with dramatic political change) and too pre-occupied with power struggles within the CCP and so not interested in supporting Putin fully. Notwithstanding that, the Chinese "Happy with Crappy" quality control standard bares a large chunk of responsibility for the massive destruction of Russian inventory that has been seen thus far.

I see the other day, the Russians lost another Major General who drove over one of their own landmines. This was apparently because the Kremlin have marked the mine maps as being of the highest level of secrecy. You couldn`t make that level of incompetence up.

Cynical as it is, the US and EU are quite aware that continuing to drip feed the Ukrainian conflict and allow the Ukrainians to distract the Kremlin and destroy the Russian military gradually is not of great cost to them and will provide time for the modernisation and rearmament plans that are being put in place. Personally, I would rather see NATO commit its Air Forces and end the conflict swiftly, which it most definitely would, and this should have been done already IMO.

Buy anyways...back to the topic (see next)



Post Edited (Thu 07 Dec 18:33)
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy  
Date:   Thu 7 Dec 18:13

With regard to the Israel-Palestine situation, I do wonder if we are on the verge of a change in policy from a number of Western European countries. I`ve been very impressed with the apparent backlash that many governments have seen

For me, Kier Starmer has been desperate to dissociate Labour with so-called "anti-semitism" which in reality is a deliberate attempt to conflate anti-Likud/anti-Zionist sentiment with being anti-Semitic. This was very much what was going on when Jeremy Corbyn was leader in my opinion.

I have good friends in the US who are Jewish or associate with the diaspora, but a number of them despise Netanyahu`s Likud party. The Hasidic Jews in the US are ridiculously financially endowed and use this to lobby both sides of the political isle. A good friend of mine ran clinics funded with Obama care in New York which were Hasidic-owned and the amount of money being made there was genuinely obscene. Much of this will go to lobby politicians in the US and Israel to ensure that US funding to Israel continues and that their children do not need to serve in the IDF.

Personally, I have always been more Palestinian-leaning but have also been of the opinion that they really don`t help themselves with the lack of political organisation and the apparent unwillingness to hold a proper election which has been the case for 15 years or so if memory serves correctly.

I am genuinely curious as to why UN troops (such as Irish or Swedish, who have historically been very successful in peace-keeping operations) couldn`t be deployed in Gaza and the West Bank. The political reasons for this are pretty obvious, but I do wonder why this cannot be forced via the UN?

Much of what is currently going on in Gaza is a case of political grandstanding by Netanyahu who is desperate to keep his coalition together so that he might avoid the consequences of the corruption charges against him.

All that said, the Israeli actions are gradually making it less sustainable for countries to support Israel which is only a good thing IMO.

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: Tenruh  
Date:   Fri 8 Dec 09:49

Well done Scotland...Starmer getting it tight in Glasgow


https://twitter.com/Lowkey0nline/status/1732821756732170724#m
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Fri 8 Dec 22:01

Heroic stuff from the UK on the UN draft resolution: they did not veto the proposition for a ceasefire, they actually abstained.

The Deputy Ambassador for the US- who vetoed obviously- talked of a ceasefire ‘planting the seeds for the next war.’ I think this a euphemism for Palestinian children who must be liquidated in order to deny Hamas of future recruits. They are the seed corn of the next resistance after all.

Why did all our commentators on this politics site, the ones who roundly condemned the Russian invasion of Ukraine and spared nothing in their fury, outrage and condemnation: why after roaring like lions, do they now sound like mewling cats on the issue of Gaza? Blistering hatred has been replaced by sorrowful head shaking. Are they NATO men as I suspect, or is there some higher moral purpose?

sammer
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: Dave_1885  
Date:   Fri 8 Dec 22:02

US Veto a ceasefire vote at the UN Security Council then Israel tell 2 MILLION Gazans to move to an area smaller than Heathrow on the coast…..jesus wept 🤦🏻‍♂️
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sat 9 Dec 00:11

I wonder if there have been any in resolutions on the Russian invasion of Ukraine which has seen civilians targeted on an almost daily basis?

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Sun 10 Dec 13:47

Is it time to accept that Russia has won in Ukraine? It sure looks like it to me...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HjkNcLt228

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sun 10 Dec 14:18

Still can`t see it. In the opening days of the ten day special military operation Russian forces were closing in on Kyiv. Can`t see that happening again so I fail to see how they can achieve victory.

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Sun 10 Dec 18:29

`I wonder if there have been any in resolutions on the Russian invasion of Ukraine which has seen civilians targeted on an almost daily basis?`

I`m sure there have been a few. But the Russian forces must indeed be rubbish since they have killed fewer children in two years than Israel has managed in two months.

Then again Ukraine did have a well trained army and NATO equipment, so Russian forces have had to concentrate on targeting that. Hamas has no navy or air force.

Not even the most ultra nationalist elements in Russia have ever voiced the option of clearing Ukraine of Ukrainians. That sentiment is heard regularly from Likud spokespersons in respect of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank. And being put into action as I write.

Anyway, TOWK can back his opinion by telling us if, as a civilian, he would prefer his chances in Western Ukraine or Gaza.

sammer
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sun 10 Dec 19:01

Oh I`d much rather be a civilian in Western Ukraine for definite. Not so sure about a civilian in eastern Ukraine. Not much left of places like Bahkmut. Ten thousand civilian deaths in Ukraine , several hundred of them children, caused by the Russian invasion so it`s not as if it`s a safe environment. Why the Russian military decided to rain down missiles, shells and white phosphorus on the likes of shopping centres, post offices and open air markets I`ll never be sure of. From a military or political standpoint it can serve no purpose but as a way of terrorising a population and driving them from their lands there is perhaps method in the madness.

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sun 10 Dec 21:02

sammer the bammer is at it again (Sun 10 Dec 18:29) - proud of the fact that the Russians may have killed fewer children than the Israelis:

(Quote:) "But the Russian forces must indeed be rubbish since they have killed fewer children in two years than Israel has managed in two months."

And,

"Not even the most ultra nationalist elements in Russia have ever voiced the option of clearing Ukraine of Ukrainians."

i.e. they may allow some Ukrainians to survive!

Shall we get out and march with a placard that says:

SUPPORT RUSSIA - THEY`VE POSSIBLY KILLED FEWER CHILDREN THAN ISRAEL

Truth is,

Two wrongs don`t make a right, i.e. Two invading armies kill more, not less.



Post Edited (Sun 10 Dec 21:08)
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Sun 10 Dec 21:46

What was the justification for Russia invading Ukraine again?
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: donj  
Date:   Sun 10 Dec 21:58

And profits for the Israeli genocide of the Palestinians.At least Westminster just stole all the profits from our oil without wiping us out.

https://www.thecanary.co/uk/2023/12/08/bp-israel-gas-licences-protest/

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: Dave_1885  
Date:   Sun 10 Dec 22:02

Quote:

jake89, Sun 10 Dec 21:46

What was the justification for Russia invading Ukraine again?


That Ukraine were massacring Russian speakers in the Donbas - according to Sammer anyway…
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Sun 10 Dec 22:34

So, where are we?

Russia will end up having gained 20% of Ukraine, retained Crimea, and told NATO in no uncertain terms to steer well clear of any advances eastward.

NATO has gained Sweden and Finland, but its most strategically important member, Turkey, may well leave. In other words, NATO is a shambles.

The USA? Currently in terminal decline. Its position on Israel has accelerated that decline.

Already, some 20 countries have applied to join the BRICS nations. Putin has recently met with Xi, the Arab sheikhs, and Iran`s supreme leader. He aims to massively expand BRICS (Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa) and further turn the screw on the Americans.

BRICS is informally known as The Global South, but watch out for a less than subtle rebranding in 2024 to The Global Majority. BRICS countries are actively reviewing payment transactions to move from the US dollar to local currencies.

And Britain? How much has it diminished since the rise of the Tories, Boris Johnson and Brexit? Consider what would happen if Argentina decided today might be a good time to invade the Falklands. Do I need to say any more?

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Sun 10 Dec 23:43

``SUPPORT RUSSIA - THEY`VE POSSIBLY KILLED FEWER CHILDREN THAN ISRAEL

Truth is,

Two wrongs don`t make a right, i.e. Two invading armies kill more, not less.``

The word `possibly` only applies if you are Joe Biden or an affiliate. I was responding to a tasteless blog by TOWK and perhaps veered into the same territory.

The last part of OAUTP`s comment I can only echo which is why I supported the peace deal of March 2022 and also the ceasefire proposition at yesterday`s meeting of the UN. But the warmongers know better and still retain enough support for their actions until they are over thrown.

sammer
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sun 10 Dec 23:50

I rather you didn`t say anymore because, in my opinion, it`s a load of poorly informed tosh.
Russia pre invasion already had Crimea, it was never going to be forced to hand it over and it`s proxies held around half of the Donbas. So for the loss of a hundred thousand troops, double that wounded and it`s military machine mauled it`s gained an extra slither of land. Whereas pre war Ukrainians would have had looked upon their former brethren in Russia fondly now they look at them as mortal enemies. Finland has now hooked the worlds most powerful military alliance (Turkey will be going nowhere) and with that Russia now has a border with NATO that is 900 miles longer. Yep NATO certainly got the message about no further eastern expansion!
The ten day special military operation is the biggest strategic blunder Russia made since, as part of the USSR, they sided with Hitler to kick off the second world war. Fortunately people like your old man Oz were around to help clean up that mess.
As for the BRICS it`s nothing but a glorified talking shop. Too many nations with competing interests. The two most important nations in the BRICS, India and China, have seen fierce border clashes in recent years. Of far more importance to India is it`s QUAD diplomatic and defence network it has with Japan, USA and Australia.
The dollar being replaced as the global currency has been debated about for decades now yet it still accounts for 80% of global trade transactions and it was higher last year than it was ten years ago. For all the talk of American decline (and it`s definitely not terminal!!) neither you or I will albe alive when the day comes, and it undoubtedly will happen eventually, that America isn`t the most powerful nation in the world.
As for the Argentina and the Falklands. Argentina wouldn`t be so foolish as the Falklands are better defended now than they were 40 years ago. Anyway all hypothetical, it`s not going to happen, Argentina relies on the United States for th bulk of it`s military hardware.
You might be right though Oz. My opinion and analysis could be just as poor as I think yours is and no doubt you won`t agree with much of mine as is your prerogative. The next three to six.months will reveal to us if Russia will manage the enormous victory you have predicted.

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sun 10 Dec 23:53

A tasteless blog by myself Sammer? You`d have to point that one out to me.

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Tue 12 Dec 07:12

Please. No more lies. No more spin. No more bullshit!

Russia has defeated Ukraine.

That is a fact!

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Tue 12 Dec 15:23

This is probably a daft laddie question - but why do Russia and NATO countries seem so concerned about each other?
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: Dave_1885  
Date:   Wed 13 Dec 17:29

Because Russia is a communist state and the others arent?

Thats my only real gauge on it…..NATO countries enjoy a lot less state pushed propaganda and dont feel like they need to take back half of Europe, like Russia do…
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: red-star-par  
Date:   Wed 13 Dec 21:19

Georgia will be next.

I do feel sorry for Ukraine, I feel USA have egged them on, promised them backing and now, they are going to leave them in the lurch
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: Dave_1885  
Date:   Wed 13 Dec 21:56

Thing is Russia wont attack a nation with a solid military force. Even if they are successful in finally taking the Donbas region (the rest of the Ukraine is out of the question IMO), they have proven to the world that their military would not be a match for a proper force.
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: Tenruh  
Date:   Thu 14 Dec 10:31

Quote:

red-star-par, Wed 13 Dec 21:19

Georgia will be next.

I do feel sorry for Ukraine, I feel USA have egged them on, promised them backing and now, they are going to leave them in the lurch


Bit like the Yanks did in Afghanistan two years ago.
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Sun 17 Dec 00:55

I would like to compliment all those who have refrained from commenting on this thread since Thursday. It must be very difficult to bite one’s tongue when news reports and pictures from Gaza are spilling across the internet, if not MSM. When children are being killed at the rate of 40%, well beyond the horrific norm of 6% in war, it is obviously taxing to remain silent.

When three Israeli hostages are killed in by their own forces then any outpouring of grief is understandable. It’s not as if these victims were sub human after all, unlike the 16,000 already killed.


Yet this has been managed on DAFC.net. As Himmler said, after a visit to an extermination camp, one must steel one’s soul to the job in hand. He thought he had a job lined up in the EU after the war! He was a bit ahead of his time.
So, heartless congratulations to all who have not commented.

sammer
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Sun 17 Dec 10:38

Not sure what you`re suggesting, sammer. If it`s what I think you are then give your head a wobble.
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: Dave_1885  
Date:   Sun 17 Dec 13:53

Quote:

sammer, Sun 17 Dec 00:55

I would like to compliment all those who have refrained from commenting on this thread since Thursday. It must be very difficult to bite one’s tongue when news reports and pictures from Gaza are spilling across the internet, if not MSM. When children are being killed at the rate of 40%, well beyond the horrific norm of 6% in war, it is obviously taxing to remain silent.

When three Israeli hostages are killed in by their own forces then any outpouring of grief is understandable. It’s not as if these victims were sub human after all, unlike the 16,000 already killed.


Yet this has been managed on DAFC.net. As Himmler said, after a visit to an extermination camp, one must steel one’s soul to the job in hand. He thought he had a job lined up in the EU after the war! He was a bit ahead of his time.
So, heartless congratulations to all who have not commented.


Its probably not been mentioned because yesterday was a Saturday and most likely everyones minds may have been elsewhere…..but Im sure thats what you were getting at 👍🏻

Anyway, the killing of 3 hostages, waving a white flag, by the IDF is truly shocking. It just shows the complete contempt that the Israeli forces have for anyone in Gaza.

What is looking more likely now though is the Western countries are turning on Israel. France have demanded an immediate ceasefire and even Cameron and the Germans have, nearly, demanded one. French officials killed in strikes on Rafa. Al-Jazeera journalists killing being reported to ICC for a war crime.

Its only a matter of when and not if now for Sleepy Joe to step in…..because 20k plus civilian deaths, and the thousands buried under the rubble no doubt, is a disgrace for all to see
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Sun 17 Dec 22:55

People can feel powerless to influence events and maybe they feel they have nothing to add to previous comments, but I don`t think we can turn away from events or bite our tongue.

Cameron and Baerbock may be a marriage made in hell, but they have been forced to break with the orthodox position of the UK and German governments. An opinion piece in a couple of newspapers is not the same as speaking out in their own parliament or voting at the UN, but it does show that popular opinion can force political change of a sort. Only last week Starmer was proudly stating his opposition to the very Ceasefire that Cameron is now supporting and possibly Biden might in time have to echo. Where does that leave Starmer then?

sammer
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Sat 23 Dec 01:04

Topic Originator: OzPar
Date: Mon 4 Dec 07:39


The US and Britain would be well advised to steer clear of this. Israel is currently set on a suicidal trajectory. Leave well alone, for if they don`t, then the Strait of Hormuz will close, the Suez Canal will close, and flights from Europe to the Indian Subcontinent, Asia, Australia and New Zealand, will have to be massively diverted. Oil, gas, food, just-in-time manufacturing, spare parts, etc., will be delayed and in very short supply.

Crazy as it seems, these are the smaller issues that could result from this conflict.

But the critical issue here is... TIME!

This could all blow up in our faces within the next fortnight. No one is talking about it yet, but they will pretty damn soon unless something is done to stop Netanyahu`s mad suicidal dance.

===

Sorry folks, I was out on my timing by what? Two or three days? It has started...

Suez is not yet closed, but the Houthis have devised a creative solution that makes the canal redundant. The leading container shipping companies and oil tanker firms are diverting their vessels around South Africa.

Freight rates from East Asia to Europe have risen 44%. Watch out for higher prices and fewer items on supermarket shelves soon.

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: desparado  
Date:   Wed 3 Jan 23:32


Owen Jones vivid description of the horrors being inflicted on Gaza.

The SA gov have brought a case to the ICJ accusing Israel of genocide.

On his You tube channel he discusses the accusations and describes the horrors and destruction of Gaza and the Palestinian people. He also quotes many Israeli government ministers. It’s stomach turning to be honest and to think the U.K. gov and indeed the Labour party support the continuing slaughter of innocents is beyond belief.

I wonder if people will keep this in mind come the next GE?




https://youtu.be/UtXY_sQurcs?si=uQGB-XvDVHN5K1HB

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Sun 7 Jan 17:19

Some Americans are beginning to wake up to the USA`s proxy war with Russia and who is driving it.

https://youtu.be/LD6kvDHbIYY?si=jm45YOM8ET2HNCxZ



Not your average Sunday League player.
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Sun 7 Jan 22:23

Quote:

GG Riva, Sun 7 Jan 17:19

Some Americans are beginning to wake up to the USA`s proxy war with Russia and who is driving it.

https://youtu.be/LD6kvDHbIYY?si=jm45YOM8ET2HNCxZ


So you think we should just allow Russia to commit genocide in Ukraine.
Robert Kennedy Jnr is a bought and paid for Russian schill.
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Sun 7 Jan 23:01

Russia must be pretty bad at this genocide business: according to UN figures they have killed around 10,000 civilians in almost two years. Israel has managed to kill more than that in two months. The problem with crying `Wolf` is that you have no words left when the reality actually happens.

Robert Kennedy belongs to one of the most powerful families in America so I `m not sure why he would need Russian money. Although there is a long tradition of smearing his family as being Soviet sympathisers. The oil rich Texans who opposed JFK`s visit to Dallas in November 1963 used pretty much the same language as SIF has just done.

The fear that many have is of Robert Kennedy Jnr meeting the same fate as his uncle for speaking against the Military Industrial Complex.

sammer
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy  
Date:   Mon 8 Jan 01:18

A wee listen to some of RFKs comments on vaccines should be enough of an indicator of the man`s credibility.
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Mon 8 Jan 10:21

Quote:

sadindiefreak, Sun 7 Jan 22:23

Quote:

GG Riva, Sun 7 Jan 17:19

Some Americans are beginning to wake up to the USA`s proxy war with Russia and who is driving it.

https://youtu.be/LD6kvDHbIYY?si=jm45YOM8ET2HNCxZ


So you think we should just allow Russia to commit genocide in Ukraine.
Robert Kennedy Jnr is a bought and paid for Russian schill.


Not at all, SIF. Genocide is arguably the most heinous crime any humans can perpetrate, given the sheer volume of murders involved. According to Kennedy, the war could have ended some time ago with favourable terms for Ukraine. If that is true, the killing would have presumably ended then.

Where did you learn that he is on Russi`s payroll? Is this common knowledge or merely mud thrown by his political enemies?

hurricane_jimmy, Mon 8 Jan 01:18~#~A wee listen to some of RFKs comments on vaccines should be enough of an indicator of the man`s credibility.

I`m not aware of his views on vaccines, HJ, but just because his views on them may differ from yours and mine doesn`t mean he has no credibility in other fields. I dutifully submitted to 4 doses of the Covid vaccine but I`m not sure I would do so again, given what we know now about the efficacy of these vaccines in the protection and transmission of the virus. In this case, Pharmaceutical companies like Pfizer have certainly made eye watering profits by talking up their product.

Apologies for posting on the wrong thread. Perhaps admin can transfer it to the Ukraine one. Amazingly, we`ve all but forgotten about it. It`s on Page 6 of this forum and the last post on it dates back to last June.



Not your average Sunday League player.
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Mon 8 Jan 10:35

Ukraine has not been forgotten, GG. Admin deleted the thread at someone`s request.

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Mon 8 Jan 10:45

Quote:

OzPar, Mon 8 Jan 10:35

Ukraine has not been forgotten, GG. Admin deleted the thread at someone`s request.


The one Raymie started when Russia invaded is still up with over 400 posts.



Not your average Sunday League player.
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: Dave_1885  
Date:   Mon 8 Jan 13:41

Quote:

sammer, Sun 7 Jan 23:01

Russia must be pretty bad at this genocide business: according to UN figures they have killed around 10,000 civilians in almost two years. Israel has managed to kill more than that in two months. The problem with crying `Wolf` is that you have no words left when the reality actually happens.

Robert Kennedy belongs to one of the most powerful families in America so I `m not sure why he would need Russian money. Although there is a long tradition of smearing his family as being Soviet sympathisers. The oil rich Texans who opposed JFK`s visit to Dallas in November 1963 used pretty much the same language as SIF has just done.

The fear that many have is of Robert Kennedy Jnr meeting the same fate as his uncle for speaking against the Military Industrial Complex.


Aye, cause killing 10,000 innocent civilians is ok because its not 20,000 🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Mon 8 Jan 14:20

Far from it of course. But there is a difference between fighting a country that has an army, navy and air force and fighting a people that has none of these. The issue of genocide in Gaza is to be considered by the UN International Court of Justice on Thursday.

I’m surprised that those who disagree with RFK Jnr. have not highlighted his full-on support for Israeli action inside Gaza, an occupied territory. It seems RFK’s opposition to the MIC fighting proxy wars evaporates when Israel comes into the equation. Maybe he’s a paid schill for Israel as well as Russia.

At the end of this year the American people will be faced with a choice between civil war (Trump) and perpetual proxy war perhaps sparking WW3 (with Biden or his replacement.) RFK Jnr. would be an upgrade on that pair but is as much an example of the gerontocracy that the late US Empire has become with contenders such as Trump, Biden, Hillary Clinton and Bernie Saunders. When the USSR ended up with the ageing Andropov and Chernenko as leaders it didn’t last long thereafter.

sammer
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Mon 8 Jan 15:55

Quote:

Dave_1885, Mon 8 Jan 13:41

Aye, cause killing 10,000 innocent civilians is ok because its not 20,000 🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️


Sammer knows fine well the 10000 civilian deaths in Ukraine are just those that are confirmed.

Take just Mariupol on its own. There are satellite images of mass graves there and it is estimated around 100000 civilians were slaughtered there.
None of this can be confirmed until Ukraine get their land back though.

It absolutely is a genocide.
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Mon 8 Jan 15:59

Doesn`t matter. No-one "wins" these wars apart from a few arms investors/shareholders.
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Mon 8 Jan 18:28

Quote:

jake89, Mon 8 Jan 15:59

Doesn`t matter. No-one "wins" these wars apart from a few arms investors/shareholders.


Are you saying Ukraine should just give up?
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Mon 8 Jan 21:48

No, I`m saying there shouldn`t have been a war in the first place and it shouldn`t have escalated how it has.

Think of all the things our great minds could do if allowed to focus on improving life on Earth rather than developing smarter ways to kill people.

The politicians don`t care as they`re invested in it. The media don`t care because they`re investors in it.
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Mon 8 Jan 21:57

I have no idea from where SIF draws his information about 100,000 civilian casualties. The Ukrainian figure for civilian deaths in Mariupol is 25,000 although that presumably inflated figure must surely include the late, unlamented members of the Azov battalion who met their maker in the Azov Steelworks. The UN figure for civilians is under 2,000 albeit they concede that is likely an underestimate. If Dave 1885 wants to tell me that is still too high a number I will not argue with him, which is why I have said for two years this conflict should have been capable of being resolved almost from the outset.

The problem with genocide is proving intent, as we shall discover this week at the UN hearing called by South Africa’s resolution. Now, Russia has never to my knowledge ever voiced the opinion that all Ukrainians should be exterminated. In fact I have Ukrainian neighbours on my landing as I type this. Nor, despite hints at ethnic cleansing, have official Ukrainian spokespersons ever talked of a ‘final solution’ for Russians within Ukraine’s 2022 borders.

However, such language has surfaced from Israeli official spokespersons in regard to Palestinians since October 7th and much of the South African presentation of 80 pages damns the ultra Zionists from their own mouths. But I shall be surprised if a finding of ‘genocide’ is actually reached by the ICJ.

sammer
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Mon 8 Jan 23:22

The bulk of Israel’s list of accusations of offences perpetrated by Hamas freedom fighters on October 7 is utter rubbish. Several independent journalists have thoroughly gone through the evidence, comparing official forensic reports with the stories that emanated from the Israeli Government and mainstream media in the days and weeks after the alleged offences. What has emerged is that the stories of mass rapes, beheadings, baby killings and such like – all of which served to stoke international anger and repulsion at the Palestinians – were sick fantasies.

Additionally, claims that Hamas killed 1,400 Israelis on October 7 were also well wide of the mark. A thorough analysis of the evidence – still ongoing – has reduced the number of non-combatants to fewer than 400, and it may end up less than half that. Any civilian killed in a military offensive is unacceptable. Still, the scale is what is significant here because it must be judged against the Israeli response in Gaza, where more than 22,700 Palestinians have been killed, more than 57,000 have been injured, and many thousands more are missing.

Do you remember when I asked you to picture East End Park full to capacity, with the bodies of dead Palestinians in every seat? It doesn’t seem that long ago now. Does it? Soon, they will be able to fill Wembley.

It has become increasingly clear that most of the deaths on October 7 were the subject of “friendly fire” by a panicked Israeli Defence Force. The charred bodies and widespread destruction of buildings in the various kibbutz were not from over-the-shoulder weapons carried by the Hamas fighters but from much heavier rockets fired from IDF Apache helicopters and tanks.

The Israelis carried out the bulk of the atrocities on October 7. That’s why I call Hamas “freedom fighters”, which they are because the Israelis clearly are the terrorists.

As Sammer says, on Thursday, the world’s attention will be drawn to the International Court of Justice in The Hague, where South Africa will accuse Israel of war crimes and genocide and attempt to halt Israel`s assault on Gaza.

Hopefully, this will be the first step of many to bring Netanyahu and his cohorts to justice for these hideous and unjustified crimes. Israel has been forever blighted by its behaviour these past few months.

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Mon 8 Jan 23:44

https://www.reuters.com/world/un-experts-demand-accountability-sexual-torture-during-hamas-attacks-2024-01-08/

Much obliged if someone could do the link thing for that please.

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Mon 8 Jan 23:58

It is not worth the effort, TOWK. Again, this is a pathetic attempt to minimise Israeli Government embarrassment. Re-read the second paragraph...

"Israeli authorities have opened an investigation into possible sexual crimes during the most deadly attack on Israel in its history. Hamas denies the abuses."

Let me point you to one of the investigative journalists I spoke of, Max Blumenthal, the editor of The Grayzone, himself a jew. He is speaking to Brianha Joy Gray, a Juris Doctor from Harvard Law School. Hardly the "mad conspiracy theorist" types you and SIF would like to describe them as...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcvVL3YTvOg












https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcvVL3YTvOg

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Tue 9 Jan 00:19

Reuters is a reasonably reliable news agency (check its funding however!) but the link from OAUTP just quotes UN ‘experts’ none of whom we have ever heard of, and Israeli sources. It’s waffle.

We have had no evidence of beheaded babies. Joe Biden claims he has seen such evidence, but the world has not. Why on earth Israel, attempting to win world opinion, would not provide credible evidence of 40 beheaded babies is beyond my comprehension. Underground tunnels below the hospitals? Nothing yet, although I don’t doubt the Israeli bulldozers are at work. Hamas infrastructure destroyed ? Not a lot on that front either.

I expressed here a few months ago the unlikelihood of guerrilla fighters who were launching a surprise attack on a kibbutz, intending to seize hostages, hanging around to commit acts of sexual violence. When I say a ‘kibbutz’ I take on board Ozpar’s point that many of the victims of the Hamas attack were armed IDF reservists therefore dubious ‘citizens.’ The issue of who actually killed them will surface in the course of time.

sammer
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Tue 9 Jan 23:17

Topic Originator: OzPar
Date: Sun 10 Dec 22:34

So, where are we?

Russia will end up having gained 20% of Ukraine, retained Crimea, and told NATO in no uncertain terms to steer well clear of any advances eastward.

NATO has gained Sweden and Finland, but its most strategically important member, Turkey, may well leave. In other words, NATO is a shambles.

The USA? Currently in terminal decline. Its position on Israel has accelerated that decline.

Already, some 20 countries have applied to join the BRICS nations. Putin has recently met with Xi, the Arab sheikhs, and Iran`s supreme leader. He aims to massively expand BRICS (Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa) and further turn the screw on the Americans.

BRICS is informally known as The Global South, but watch out for a less than subtle rebranding in 2024 to The Global Majority. BRICS countries are actively reviewing payment transactions to move from the US dollar to local currencies.

===

Saudi Arabia, Egypt, the United Arab Emirates, Iran and Ethiopia have formally joined the ranks of BRICS. The economic grouping now includes ten countries; up to 30 more are awaiting approval to join.

BRICS currently represents 40% of the global population and more than a quarter of the GDP.

This is a significant win for China, which has pushed for expansion, for it wants to turn BRICS into a counterweight to the G7 group of developed nations. It is bigger now in purchasing terms than G7 but needs more formal structures like its Western counterpart. The members are committed to addressing this, initially in the form of a lending bank to rival the World Bank.

The addition of Iran is significant in demonstrating that the impact of American sanctions on it will be lessened by its access to major alternative markets within BRICS.

The long-term aim is economic integration and a move towards trading in the currencies of member states rather than the US dollar, which currently dominates international financial transactions.

The world as we know it is changing before our eyes.

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Tue 9 Jan 23:41

It`s not really changing. For a successful BRICS and progress towards using a currency other than the dollar, the main players in BRICS need to provide a viable alternative. Otherwise they`ve just got a group of nations in a room staring at the floor.

To me you can ignore most nations. The reality is that this is about the US, Russia and China. All this posturing is a nonsense. These little clubs of nations are adorable but the reality is all nations need to work together rather than against each other. This won`t happen as it doesn`t benefit the people in power. In the meantime, the general public will be taught that certain nations/religions/races are the problem to distract them from the reality that it is those with the power who create the biggest societal issues.
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Thu 11 Jan 20:04

Breaking from the Beeb :-

The BBC understands the UK Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer and the Shadow Defence Secretary John Healey are to be briefed by the government shortly after the cabinet call.

We are also told the Speaker of the Commons, Sir Lindsay Hoyle, will be briefed this evening as well.

Prime Minister Rishi Sunak is briefing his cabinet now and the BBC understands it relates to potential US and UK strikes against Houthi rebels in Yemen.

We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sun 14 Jan 02:08

Ref: sammer Tue 9 Jan 00:19

Quote:

"Reuters is a reasonably reliable news agency (check its funding however!) but the link from OAUTP just quotes UN ‘experts’ none of whom we have ever heard of, and Israeli sources. It’s waffle."

--------------------

Sammer responding to a post made less than an hour earlier, not by OAUTP, as he claims, but by TOWK (8 Jan 23:44). A mere slip of the keyboard, or symptomatic of the complete unreliability of his posts, i.e. yet more evidence that he never checks sources or thinks twice about ideas and associations that sprout as rampant weeds from his Russophilic head.

Retraction and apology due for wrong attribution?

Note the reason he is against Israel`s war on Gaza is not to do with the killing of people there. His stance is merely anti-west. He is not against war and killing of civilians or children, he is just obsessively anti-west.





Post Edited (Sun 14 Jan 16:00)
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sun 14 Jan 16:13

"the reason [sammer] is against Israel`s war on Gaza is not to do with the killing of people there. His stance is merely anti-west. He is not against war and killing of civilians or children, he is just obsessively anti-west."


Or would he like to join me in condemning BOTH Russia`s invasion of Ukraine AND Israel`s diabolical war on Gazans?



Post Edited (Sun 14 Jan 16:17)
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: donj  
Date:   Sun 14 Jan 16:53

Both wars could be stopped tomorrow if the US told Ukraine to adhere to the Minsk agreement(which Zelenisky said he never intended to implement) and Netenyahu to stop or else.Unfortunately we look likely to have wars forever keeping the weapons industry making massive profits on peoples deaths.

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sun 14 Jan 17:15

Ref: jake89 Tue 9 Jan 23:41


"The reality is that this is about the US, Russia and China... These little clubs of nations are adorable but the reality is all nations need to work together rather than against each other. This won`t happen as it doesn`t benefit the people in power. In the meantime, the general public will be taught that certain nations/religions/races are the problem to distract them from the reality that it is those with the power who create the biggest societal issues."

-----------------------------------------------------------------

I agree that`s how it is now and it`s hard to see how it can ever change, as it`s been like that all through history. But technology is changing and spreading. In a hundred years will there be any country or armed group that doesn`t have nuclear weapons? Food and resources are going to run low if population keeps increasing. The world may change in ways that we haven`t imagined yet.

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Sun 14 Jan 18:16

Maybe that’s why putin wants to conquer Ukraine, it’s often referred to as breadbasket of Europe’s - so he’s thinking long term for Russia food security
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: parsfan  
Date:   Sun 14 Jan 19:35

Quote:

donj, Sun 14 Jan 16:53

Both wars could be stopped tomorrow if the US told Ukraine to adhere to the Minsk agreement(which Zelenisky said he never intended to implement) and Netenyahu to stop or else.Unfortunately we look likely to have wars forever keeping the weapons industry making massive profits on peoples deaths.


Who`d be able to make Putin to abide by them?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The universe is ruled by chance and indifference



[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sun 14 Jan 19:48

Exactly. Minsk accords - had about as much chance of succeeding with Putin as Bon Accord FC being resurrected and winning the Champions League.

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Sun 14 Jan 21:40

Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Tue 9 Jan 23:41

It`s not really changing. For a successful BRICS and progress towards using a currency other than the dollar, the main players in BRICS need to provide a viable alternative. Otherwise they`ve just got a group of nations in a room staring at the floor.

To me you can ignore most nations. The reality is that this is about the US, Russia and China. All this posturing is a nonsense. These little clubs of nations are adorable but the reality is all nations need to work together rather than against each other. This won`t happen as it doesn`t benefit the people in power. In the meantime, the general public will be taught that certain nations/religions/races are the problem to distract them from the reality that it is those with the power who create the biggest societal issues.

===

Referring to the BRICS grouping as an “adorable” little club of nations illustrates why it was created in the first place. This paternalistic, sneering attitude towards nations outside of the establishment “West” has built an enormous reservoir of resentment among countries that feel disrespected and dismissed by the USA, Europe, and Britain.

How can you write off a group that produces more than 50% of the world’s top eight traded commodities? If the BRICS members want their own currency, of course, they can do it; it is only a matter of timing. In the meantime, they will move away from the dollar in their trade deals, preferring to use the currencies of their respective trade partners.

The corruption of the IMF and the World Bank is obvious to anyone outside the US and Europe. They have become vehicles to protect the US and Europe rather than means to promote international development.

Access to international credit/reserves is used as a kind of political leverage to force borrowing countries to follow laws that will not tax American and European firms, allowing them to use accounting stratagems to pretend not to earn any profits in the host country but to take them in offshore tax havens.

As devised by the West, the international finance system has become a massive pretence to avoid taxation in host countries and to avoid making these companies responsible for any economic damages caused to the environment and the rest of the economy.

Naturally, the Western establishment wants to keep the system the way it is - they don’t want other countries to be able to avoid dependency on the USA, the IMF, and the World Bank for what they can and cannot invest in.

The idea of de-dollarisation is to prevent this parasitism of host economies. In other words, restrain the Americans from spending an infinite amount on the military and buying control of our economies simply by printing dollars instead of earning them through exports. Essentially, the USA is de-industrialised and cannot produce the goods for trade. It has become the world’s largest debtor (US$34 trillion and counting), but it continues to print endless dollars without constraint.

From the 1950s to the 1990s, the World Bank provided loans to governments to build roads, dams, electric utility companies, ports, communications, and transport infrastructure. But having built all that, the World Bank and the IMF pressurised the states to privatise these assets to repay foreign creditors for all those loans. The net result is all the government assets are sold, their income streams are dead, and the price to consumers of these hitherto public services goes through the roof. The countries that sell this infrastructure don’t even get taxes from the privatised units as these companies create “debt structures” that essentially offshore any profits.

It is against this backdrop that nations are queuing to join BRICS. This is no talking shop; this is a real attempt by the most powerful nations outside of the West to firmly grasp control of their own futures.

They just want a system that is fairer.



Post Edited (Sun 14 Jan 21:46)
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Sun 14 Jan 21:44

Putin seemed to think there was some mileage in the Minsk Accords and was still using them as the basis for a peace deal in March 2022. He has since apologised publicly to the Russian people for his naivety, unavoidable since Poroshenko and Merkel have admitted the Minsk Accords were merely a device to allow Ukraine to militarise.

I notice Boris Johnson has suddenly decided to offer a view on the failed Istanbul peace talks from April 2022, a process he has been accused of sabotaging by a number of those who attended. Naturally enough he claims he did no such thing, by why wait until now to say it? Well Johnson had a vision of him and Zelensky driving through Crimea in an open top limousine, Churchill cigars in hand, as the liberated Ukrainians threw garlands at them. The fact that Crimea’s people identify as overwhelmingly Russian would have concerned him little. But now that ‘victory over Putin’ has been exposed as a fantasy he wants no further part of it. Success has many fathers, but failure is an orphan.

I would welcome a ceasefire in both these major conflicts but I think I am in the minority. OAUTP says he is aghast at the casualties of war but would he support a peace deal in Ukraine tomorrow morning? I am not so sure. There are plenty who would claim it was ‘appeasement’ or ‘peace at any price’ or ‘emboldening’ Vladimir Putin. These are the same voices unprepared to call for a ceasefire in Gaza least it should ‘embolden’ Hamas.

To point any of this out is not anti-western. It is anti the warmongering elite who are deeply entrenched inside the western political system and wish to extend their imperial reach through proxy wars, another of which is beginning in Yemen.

sammer
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: parsfan  
Date:   Sun 14 Jan 23:06

Quote:

sammer, Sun 14 Jan 21:44

Putin seemed to think there was some mileage in the Minsk Accords and was still using them as the basis for a peace deal in March 2022.


Really? So much so that instead of pulling his troops out of Ukraine from his 2014 invasion, as required by those very accords, he sent in a quarter of a million more in February.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The universe is ruled by chance and indifference



[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: parsfan  
Date:   Sun 14 Jan 23:26

How come it`s only ever ex-Isreali military leaders/politicians who talk any sense about the Palestinians?

As it is, what they`re doing is utterly futile. As long as they only ever try to deal with the symptoms, rather than resolving the problem itself, there`s never going to be an end to it. If there`s not going to be any justice there for the Palestinians, then Hamas will only ever be replaced by something worse.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The universe is ruled by chance and indifference



[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Mon 15 Jan 00:22

Putin sent in his troops in February 2022 to concentrate the minds of the Ukrainian government on what they should have being doing in respect of the Minsk Accords. These accords formed the basis of a peace deal that was initialled by both sides in late March 2022. The rest we know. From that point, the Russian position has been that any future settlement will not rely purely on a piece of paper.

These pieces of paper are never very exciting but they are invaluable in stopping war if respected by all parties. The present Gaza genocide follows on from almost 70 years worth of paper agreements, sometimes I think signed in good faith, but which delivered next to nothing for the Palestinian people. I can’t see some Tony Blair style Dual State solution agreement, signed off by Abbas, offering Hamas any more than a peace treaty signed by some Red Indian chief in the 19th century. There were over 300 such treaties over the years and after they were all signed, and subsequently broken of course, the Native Americans were herded into reservations.

sammer
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Mon 15 Jan 00:24

Oz, I was referring to ALL of these little cliques of countries, not BRICS specifically. BRICS is just another example of a group of countries getting together to be the next big thing.

Resources are diminishing yet we`re spending more money on new ways of killing each other.
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Mon 15 Jan 01:22

Ref: sammer Sun 14 Jan 21:44

Putin`s "naivety" - I`ll say - According to sammer he was forced by the west into starting a war he didn`t want. How would it be possible for someone with such power to be forced to kill and injure thousands of people?

Either he was forced into it, or he`s a warmonger - same as the ones who he says are "deeply entrenched inside the western political system"... as if there are no others.

Another case of sammer`s blindness due to his extreme Russophilia.

"The Terrible Mess Created by the Warmongers" :

https://radixuk.org/opinion/the-terrible-messes-created-by-the-warmongers/

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: parsfan  
Date:   Mon 15 Jan 13:47

Quote:

sammer, Mon 15 Jan 00:22

Putin sent in his troops in February 2022 to concentrate the minds of the Ukrainian government on what they should have being doing in respect of the Minsk Accords. These accords formed the basis of a peace deal that was initialled by both sides in late March 2022. The rest we know. From that point, the Russian position has been that any future settlement will not rely purely on a piece of paper.


As usual you completely ignore that Russia had obligations in The Minsk Accords which it just ignored. Neither side held up its end of the deal. So Russia, instead of withdrawing its 2014 invasion force as it was required to do, then sends in hundreds of thousands more to make the Ukrainians uphold their side. That sounds a lot like "might makes right" to me which, I`m sure, when you were accusing Israel of having that attitude, you said was a bad thing.

Back on topic, OAUTP is bang on the money describing your view of this conflict. It`s not about the endless suffering of the Palestinians for you, but who`s doing the killing. I don`t remember you having any qualms about Russia conducting a similar war against the civilian population of Syria a few years ago or even criticism of the Syrians - just lies defending their use of chemical weapons.

If anyone does want to defend Israel on here, all you need to do is say they`re just "concentrating the minds of the Palestinians". You`ll be laughed at by most but, you never know, you might be a winning argument for someone.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The universe is ruled by chance and indifference



[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Mon 15 Jan 16:57

I think we should stop having a go at sammer...

if I was in his shoes, i.e. living in a country that is in essence a dictatorship (albeit hiding under the false appearance of a democratic institutions), I`d be doing exactly the same - I`d be rattling out pro-russian propaganda quicker than any automated rus-bot for fear of getting a knock on the door!

so lets understand his position and cut him some slack

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy  
Date:   Mon 15 Jan 17:20

The whole thing about the West supposedly "sneering" at BRICs is quite funny tbh. It seems that Oz is believing the narrative being peddled by Chinese and Russian outlets that BRICs is actually achieving success in supposed "de-dollarisation".

If we take the members of BRICs:

Russia has now put its economy on a war footing and the population will very soon start to feel the strain of that. No doubt though, Sammer will be along to tell us this is all lies because of his experiences in Moscow, where the locals live a vastly different life to those in rural Russia. That`s not to mention the fact that the Ukrainians are still humiliating them on the battlefield despite ammunition and personnel issues. So much for being a great power.

At the moment, I`m based in Hong Kong and the other weekend I went over to Shenzhen with work and the weekend after I went up to Guangzhou, which are both tier 1 cities. What you find in these cities is that vast chunks of the fancy skyscrapers that are shown on TV are empty - these are known locally as "White Elephant developments" and they also exist in Hong Kong, one example being the big ferry terminal that was built at the end of the Kai Tak runway. These are even more frequent in the Mainland. Simply put, scratch under the surface of what you are shown with China and you`ll find a very different story. The cover-ups of Covid, Youth Unemployment, the Real Estate debt crisis and the debt of the national railway are but a few of the ailments facing China. The reality is that Mainland China will never overtake the EU or US while the CCP are still in power. The threat of war with Taiwan is very much a means of distracting the populace. Xi has also just purged his military of pretty much anyone that had any competence and replaced them with loyalists. This is just one of many examples as to how China is becoming ever more closed off, which is causing its decline. Never underestimate the importance of Mainland Chinese Face culture and the projection it causes.

India presents a very interesting case as their economy has developed in quite an unusual way compared to other precedents, namely that they have a very well-mobilised educated workforce, but have nowhere near reached their potential when it comes to their unskilled workforce. In contrast to China, the Indian economy is currently impossible to measure because of the "cash-in-hand" culture which is known as formalisation issues. As a fully-open market economy, the Indians I would say are poised to become the next economic superpower.

Brazil is one I`m not overly familiar with, but they have been making massive progress in recent years and it seems that Lula is keen to push a trade deal between the EU and MERCOSUR. With all the ties of the various populations across South America to Europe, I can see ties with the EU winning out over BRICS in the case of Brazil.



Post Edited (Mon 15 Jan 17:33)
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy  
Date:   Mon 15 Jan 17:33

South Africa is pretty much in the process of becoming a failed state by all accounts and it is in fact Ethiopia (who recently joined) that is the one to watch in Africa.

Saudi Arabia and the UAE have both largely failed to prepare for the post-oil world by all accounts and this is part of a new push to prevent an economic collapse with the rise of EVs.

Iran, I`m very curious about as the regime doesn`t have much support among the populace and it will be interesting to see how long they can cling on to power. Like in most places.

Egypt, I really need to do more reading on but they have been plagued by massive instability over the last 10/15 years or so and have really failed to kick on, despite being the largest Arab state.

While the West have undoubtedly interfered in the Middle East, the main issue is that the different Arab groups and the Persians would probably find a way to disagree on the colour of sh**e. A cursory read on the modern political history of the region and the Arab League would show that quite clearly. I remember studying this and it was genuinely impossible to keep up with the whole web of things going on there.

All that said, the major factor that will prevent BRICS making progress is that China is progressively alienating the rest of the world and they despise the Indians, who now outnumber them and (unless there is radical political reform in China) will overtake them economically relatively soon. I certainly can`t see there being a France-Germany style relationship between the two and this will affect the functionality of the bloc quite significantly. The "Collective West" seem to recognise the potential of India as a geopolitical counter to China and also that it has replaced China as the home of cheap labour and, when it comes down to brass tacks, the Indians will most likely chose to align with the other democracies as this will present them with the best path for economic growth.

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: red-star-par  
Date:   Mon 15 Jan 17:33

Quote:

DBP, Mon 15 Jan 16:57

I think we should stop having a go at sammer...

if I was in his shoes, i.e. living in a country that is in essence a dictatorship (albeit hiding under the false appearance of a democratic institutions), I`d be doing exactly the same - I`d be rattling out pro-russian propaganda quicker than any automated rus-bot for fear of getting a knock on the door!

so lets understand his position and cut him some slack


I agree with this. In the past Sammer used to be quite even handed, and was sometimes critical of Putin and Russia. Nowadays there is none of that, he is basically parroting the party line and ensuring that he says nothing negative against the regime at all.
If I was in his position I would probably do the same, I would imagine being a non-Russian in Russia he will be under surveillance and his every correspondence will be monitored. It`s probably not worth being beaten and raped by the police and sentenced to 7 years just to say something on dafc.net
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy  
Date:   Mon 15 Jan 17:43

Absolute lies DBP & RSP, surveillance doesn`t exist in the glorious CC....I mean...Russian Federation! ;) OAUTP suggested the same recently and I do think you guys have a point with that, but there is also the thing that that generation has a problem with admitting that they got it wrong to their juniors.

The funny thing though is how Sammer appears to constantly try to distract from the Ukraine conflict and direct attention to Israel-Palestine, which is EXACTLY the same thing that a number of Russian state news outlets are doing. You can watch any of the Russian street interview channels on YouTube (such as 1420) and the oldies are saying the same stuff as him.

Back to Israel & Palestine though, I genuinely applaud the South Africans for taking the genocide case forward - this should have happened decades ago.

Just as an addendum, this is my favourite story of the last week:
https://www.businessinsider.com/china-corruption-rocket-force-water-fuel-xi-jinping-purge-scandal-2024-1

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Mon 15 Jan 19:35

Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy
Date: Mon 15 Jan 17:20

The whole thing about the West supposedly "sneering" at BRICs is quite funny tbh. It seems that Oz is believing the narrative being peddled by Chinese and Russian outlets that BRICs is actually achieving success in supposed "de-dollarisation".

===

HJ. Let`s first address this issue of "sneering", and let me give you a simple example closer to home.

In 1973, when the UK joined the European Common Market, Ted Heath & Co. sneeringly told Australia and New Zealand to feck themselves as the UK had new friends now. I am told that the sense of resentment down here was enormous. After all, Australia and NZ had been first in the queue to support the UK in two world wars and had centuries-long trading agreements effectively torn up.

In 2020, after Brexit, who did Boris Johnson call first? Australia and New Zealand. Revenge, as they say, is a dish best served cold. Little wonder then that the antipodean negotiators took their British counterparts to the cleaners and British farmers rue the signed agreements.

I would not be surprised if Australia and New Zealand eventually signed up to BRICS. Doing so is in our long-term interest.

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Mon 15 Jan 19:47

When this all began it did not sit well with me but I did not want to post as I was not sure .. Said to Mrs BBP at the time

Israel is one of the most security conscious nations on the planet but they did not see the Hamas strike coming ?

The Israel government were too quick to put their hands up and say that their security failed .. too many times for an apology

That in itself rang some alarm bells for me

Then I read the attached bbc article and I am thinking I may have been correct

So this is a question and not a statement .. I don’t want to start any serious arguments ..

Is it feasible that Israel knew .. but sacrificed some of their own to gain their ultimate ambition .. To wipe out the Palestinian population and gain further land and sea resources ?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67958260

We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Mon 15 Jan 20:11

As I suspected, not too many takers for a double ceasefire on this site. The loudest yelps for the sanctity of human life come from warmongers, the better to disguise their intentions. No one sheds more tears over the death of a child than they do, yet when there is an opportunity to weaken the enemy then life human comes a very poor second indeed. This weekend’s gunboat diplomacy in Yemen by the Biden/Sunak alliance stands as perfect proof. The Houthis were attacked not for supporting genocide but for obstructing those who do. Needless to say HM’s loyal opposition led by the two Sirs- Keir Starmer and the beleaguered Ed Davey- sees nothing amiss with this at all.

In response to Parsfans’ points, the Donbas militias were of the opinion that any removal of Russian weaponry would have seen the vacuum filled by Ukrainian military. In terms of Syria, Russia was actually invited to the ‘party’ by Assad, unlike the other gatecrashers. He didn’t want to suffer the same fate as Hussein and Gaddafi and see his country wrecked. The warmongers gleefully forecast he was ‘toast’ back in 2011 yet he has survived.

Parsfan has me back to front on the Gaza situation. It was Hamas who concentrated the minds of Israel when they launched their incursion and more importantly they have opened the eyes of the entire world to the nature of the Zionist state in a way which has never happened in my lifetime.

Given the treatment of Craig Murray, whose reporting from the Hague last week has been inspiring, I should probably be more wary when arriving at Turnhouse Airport rather than Domededevo. The UK State has a track record of torturing political detainees although the ECHR preferred the term ‘inhuman and degrading.’ The Ballykelly Camp in Northern Ireland was used for this purpose although there were others; Gerry Adams gave a lurid account of his mistreatment when at Long Kesh. But small beer when compared to the ‘intelligence gathering’ operations in the UK’s colonies, one of which I remember was celebrated at the time in the media as the kilted ‘Mad Mitch’ put down an insurrection in…..Yemen. Plus ca change.

sammer
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Mon 15 Jan 23:12

Is sammer obliged to comment at all on Russian politics, military activities and its relations with the west? Is there somebody in Moscow keeping a beady eye on him, threatening to do him harm if he doesn`t keep up his constant barrage on here, of lies, accusations and misinformation?

I`m willing to bet he`s under no such pressure at all, and is absolutely free, in his adopted Motherland, to say nothing if he so chooses.

That`s to say, for those who can`t figure it out - if he needs to be cut some slack, he can do it for himself, he doesn`t need any assistance from posters on here.

Look at the way he laid into the anti-war campaigner in Moscow, Artyom Kamardin - laid into him with relish - real venom. In typical sammer style, he has neither come up with evidence for those claims, nor made a retraction, or apology - yet; but it`s only about a month since he made those baseless claims - not a lot of time to "find" evidence that doesn`t exist.

Sammer`s style is hit and run, and to hello with accountability.


Ref: sammer Mon 15 Jan 20:11 - An entire load of (woops, gotta be inoffensive!)`sammerism,` a new word in the language as in -`an entire load of sammerism`- it means just what you think it does.



Post Edited (Mon 15 Jan 23:57)
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: parsfan  
Date:   Mon 15 Jan 23:36

Quote:

parsfan, Mon 15 Jan 13:47
Back on topic, OAUTP is bang on the money describing your view of this conflict. It`s not about the endless suffering of the Palestinians for you, but who`s doing the killing. I don`t remember you having any qualms about Russia conducting a similar war against the civilian population of Syria a few years ago or even criticism of the Syrians - just lies defending their use of chemical weapons.


Quote:

sammer, Mon 15 Jan 20:11
In terms of Syria, Russia was actually invited to the ‘party’ by Assad, unlike the other gatecrashers. He didn’t want to suffer the same fate as Hussein and Gaddafi and see his country wrecked. The warmongers gleefully forecast he was ‘toast’ back in 2011 yet he has survived.


So, just as I said then.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The universe is ruled by chance and indifference



[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Mon 15 Jan 23:41

Yep. He`s a monster.



Post Edited (Tue 16 Jan 00:00)
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Tue 16 Jan 22:13

There have been enough crocodile tears on this site to flood East End Park twice over, USH or not. Pious posturing has been the order of the day for the most part. Politics is not a matter of life or death: it is more important than that. If others disagree, if they think politics should be guided by some higher morality, then they could have voted for Jeremy Corbyn, as I would have done. But I doubt many of those who disagree with me here would have done so. They can leave their prating morality on some other site.

There are personal choices within that political world nonetheless. You can support Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis who are attempting to prevent a genocide in Gaza which is ongoing as I type. Or you can sing ‘Britannia Rules the Waves’ and support the US/UK attacks on Yemen which are seeking to allow the genocide to continue. The choice is yours in theory, although I appreciate a UK government may be as dismissive as Blair was over Iraq. Starmer carries the same stamp. That’s how democracy works in practice.

A similar choice exists in Ukraine. You can support the extension of NATO’s borders as far east as dollars allow and cheer the surviving Ukrainians to a slow but certain grave. NATO’s ‘arsenal of democracy’ has been all but emptied and is burning on the Steppes. The dream was to have the Eurovision Contest in Mariupol (I quote Zelensky from 2022) where I am sure the Azov Male Voice Choir’s rendition of the Horst Wessel song would have come up trumps and been cheered to the rafters by the spiritual heirs of the Third Reich- which includes Netanyahu as we have seen the last 100 days. The reality at present is that the Red Army Choir has a better chance of a gig in Kiev.

Still no takers for a dual ceasefire? Not even from those who preach the sanctity of human life?

sammer
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy  
Date:   Wed 17 Jan 09:10

Sammer, that last post is absolutely desperate.

I support a dual ceasefire in Gaza, as does pretty much everybody else that`s posted on this thread. I`d go as far as saying that the UN or EU should put a task force in to enforce that and deal with the Israelis if they refuse to leave. For me, that task force should be permanent until the Palestinians have the proper instruments of state, including a functioning defence force. The UK, Germany and US in particular have no excuses for blindly supporting Israel. The same should apply to the West Bank and the Israeli settlers should be removed. Both Netanyahu and the Hamas leaders should be on trial in the Hague.

The Ukraine Nazi patter is and has been boring for a long time. I do genuinely wonder if you are afraid for your own safety in Moscow because your internet connection will undoubtedly be under surveillance. As it stands, the most likely escalation in Ukraine will be the use of NATO air power to support the Ukrainians on the ground. The Ukrainians already have control of the sea (without a Navy to speak of) and are starting to take control of the air, all the while causing massive casualties to the Russians on the ground. The biggest joke is that Russians literally couldn`t and still can`t do anything about the convoys of Tanks, Vehicles and ammunition crossing into Ukraine, yet the Ukrainians are wreaking havoc with Russian logistics.

Try again.

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Wed 17 Jan 15:00

Ref: sammer Tue 16 Jan 22:13


The monster has lifted its tail and left us another giant pat. The same old BS/ thicko-thoughts pathetically trying to look like intelligent comment.

1. First he shows how serious he takes the matters of war and international relations by reducing them to a Bill Shankly soundbite. He then says that if you disagree with it – AS HE DOES HIMSELF - you could have voted for Jeremy Corbyn!

What is this then – sammerlogic!

2. He assumes that many of those who disagree with him must not have voted Labour! He thinks you must choose on nationalistic and/or party political lines. He can`t get his head around the fact that some folk are against terrorism - in Ukraine, Russia, Gaza, Israel, Yemen, Lebanon… He’s just not developed past the immature nationalistic stage of thinking.

3. He thinks we must go along with one or other of our two main party leaders. (No other parties? Non-voter?) And he says we must choose between supporting Hamas etc or singing “Rule Britannia!” (I prefer the nice Capercaillie number in my head just now.)

4. You get the picture. Desperate stuff indeed, HJ.

No takers for a dual ceasefire? He asks.
What terms? None? Then let’s have world peace right now!



Post Edited (Wed 17 Jan 16:37)
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Wed 17 Jan 16:23

When I used the expression `dual ceasefire` I was referring to the conflicts in both Ukraine and Gaza. HJ has now made clear his support of the latter but not the former. HJ is quite dismissive of those who believe in God but is not immune to believing in the Second Coming of the Ukrainian counter-offensive, despite a similar level of scientific proof for both. His desire for the killing to continue in Ukraine takes precedence over the sanctity of human life - which is perfectly traditional politics, but must be confusing to OAUTP who claims a higher moral calling. HJ`s vision of The Hague as an instrument of impartial justice is the triumph of hope over experience, as I suspect the upcoming judgment on South Africa`s submission will demonstrate.

If OAUTP`s dream of world peace is founded on his opposition to `terrorism` then he would do well to explore how that word is used. (Noam Chomsky has supplied the most concise definition I am aware of.) Nelson Mandela was labelled a `terrorist` by the UK government until the day he was released. Amnesty International refused to adopt Mandela as a prisoner of conscience since he was a `terrorist.` If that`s the road to World Peace then you can include me out.

sammer
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sat 20 Jan 13:04

I was looking for a picture of sammer on his ridiculous high horse when it occured to me - I think I know the secret of his non-stop gibberin` - he watches what comes out of a horse`s rear end then translates it into words.

If he could just bag it all up, he could easily sell it for putting on the garden.

Here`s today`s wee entertainment break.




That`s what I call a high horse!



Post Edited (Sat 20 Jan 17:54)
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Sat 20 Jan 23:19

The scatological insults from OAUTP are usually analysed by Freudians as some sort of anal retentive fixation. I think that’s too complicated: the man is just fixated on the anus and ordure. It’s clearly where he feels most at ease. I have no desire to remove him from his potty. The reasons for that may lie in some background in the police or the military where order (not ordure) was paramount.

The conflicts in both Ukraine and Gaza are solvable. Chas Freeman, an ex- American diplomat, has suggested about 4 ways for the Ukrainian conflict to be resolved. These include Ukraine, as at present existing, to join the EU but not NATO. The Donbas area would take on a manner of devolution as such we understand in Scotland. All very sensible stuff, therefore anathema to warmongers like OUTP who claims who claims some sort of ersatz pacifism. Like SIF he wants Putin to be killed before any peace deal, if I read him right. So human life is not paramount despite his crocodile tears.

The situation in Palestine is far more difficult and I do not feel the two state solution has any legs left. Netanyahu has made this clear yesterday, although Biden now tells us Netanyahu still believes in it! That train has left the station. All that remains is a one state solution, as OAUTP to his credit acknowledged a few posts back. Anything less is just perpetual injustice.

Hamas, like the ANC before them in South Africa, have been terrorists no doubt, but forced the impossibility of change before the international audience. That has been their great achievement albeit at a tremendous loss of human life. In my book they are freedom fighters, not terrorists any more than those who fought the Nazis in Europe were.

sammer
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy  
Date:   Sat 20 Jan 23:19

I don`t support a ceasefire in Ukraine because this would only benefit Putin, who is clinging to ideas of the past, much like yourself Sammer

I see a new anti-war candidate called Boris Nadezhdin (an ally of the murdered Boris Nemtsov) is gathering signatures to run for the presidential election in Russia, although no doubt, like Yekaterina Duntsova before him, there will likely be some "issue" with his paperwork. I see that last time round Putin also planted his God-daughter as a candidate to pretend that Russia allows liberal candidates. No doubt Sammer will claim that these two are simply more "that are annoyed because they`re not receiving their share of siphoned state assets".

An interesting development is that NATO countries are moving toward confiscating Russia`s sovereign assets which total about $300Bn. The Canadians have been the ones innovating with legislation here and the US, UK and EU keeping tabs on the progress. Brussels will yield the most power here as the vast majority of Russian assets are within the EU. The Kremlin is of course bleating that this "violates international law" and sovereign immunity, yet they have been seizing the assets of companies like Carlsberg, Hyundai and so on and giving them to those close to the Kremlin. Apparently Peskov has been claiming that Russia will do the same to "offending countries", which is rather funny considering that none of these countries keep their sovereign assets in Russia.

Personally, I think it is quite likely that we will see a return to widespread National Service in most NATO countries over the next 10 years and this will be coupled with a massive re-vamping of European militaries. I think is also more likely that so-called "War fatigue" will result in a NATO intervention in the air, which would spell the end for the Russian ground forces in Ukraine and there will undoubtedly be battle plans ready for this.

As for Russia relying on China, even this is not the best idea. Xi has just purged his military of anyone with any operational competence and a chunk of their missiles were found to contain water instead of fuel. The way the CCP are behaving with their "Wolf Warrior Diplomacy" is alienating the ASEAN has prompted a number of quite prominent political figures in the Philippines, Indonesia, Thailand and Malaysia to call for a new incarnation of SEATO which was a NATO-liked organisation dissolved in 1977. This coupled with India and China`s mutual dislike and mistrust will seriously undermine the China going forward.

Putin`s end however will be the result of a disastrous miscalculation. The question is whether that will be the invasion of Ukraine or something else.

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sun 21 Jan 03:01

Ref: sammer Sat 20 Jan 23:19


His madness knows no limits:

"Hamas... forced the impossibility of change before the international audience. That has been their great achievement... In my book they are freedom fighters, not terrorists any more than those who fought the Nazis in Europe were."



He`s not getting away with that one.


I`ve reported that part of his post as abusive.



Post Edited (Sun 21 Jan 03:09)
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Sun 21 Jan 03:32

Fighting to the last Ukrainian remains HJ’s position. Quite why OAUTP is not horrified at the loss of human life and ready for the sick bucket is beyond my understanding but he can come on here and speak for the sake of humanity.
HJ’s last military bulletin was excitement at some bridgehead near the Kherson region, It was labelled a ‘hare brained exercise’ by Brian Berletic amongst others and so it has proved to be, at the cost of many Ukrainian lives. This, from the man who said I had no concept of military strategy. Apology for these deaths from HJ, there will be none. Like Peter Grant, all victories lie in the future tense.

But Ukrainian lives are not sufficient as HJ is honest enough to admit. Ukraine has failed to carry out the NATO directive and is now defending what remains of its former territory. Inspired by the response in Sweden HJ is advocating National Service across NATO countries. Your son, or grandson, Your Country Needs You! He comes from a military family and loves the idea of saluting aristocratic officers and even more so being saluted by conscripted plebs from the housing schemes. The uniform is a bonus since it offers immunity from prosecution. He’s in paradise, salivating at the prospect of WW3 - which we will win of course. Well, I’m sure he said that would happen in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria and Ukraine so your sons must die for a victory sometimes, on the law of the averages you would think. He’s already explained why Russia and China will be a walkover, so sign up now.

If you are rash enough, or politically illiterate, then you shall follow HJ as did my grandfathers’ generation the McCrae battalion around 1914. My grandfather survived that one and hammered home to me, dinned into me, that I must never, never, never, follow a government into war unless your country is directly threatened. It was sound advice. Ignore it at your children’s peril.

sammer
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Sun 21 Jan 03:37

"Hamas... forced the impossibility of change before the international audience. That has been their great achievement... In my book they are freedom fighters, not terrorists any more than those who fought the Nazis in Europe were."

He`s not getting away with that one.

I`ve reported that part of his post as abusive.``

I will abide by the decision of the referee as always, even if if I do not agree with it. But I have never appealed to the moderators on this site if any abuse if any abuse came my, which has been consistent from OAUTP. I was taught to stick up for myself in the playground, not to hide behind the school sheds and then sneak to the teachers behind their skirts.

sammer
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy  
Date:   Sun 21 Jan 06:48

Well....Sammer....that was quite something...unhinged!😂😂😂

I`m glad to see you admit that you`ve been indoctrinated as it seemed like it was obvious to everyone but yourself. You display a plethora of the same traits as the radical religious kids I encountered during my teaching days!

Once again though, we get the approach of ignore the facts and resort to bluster, much of it is straight from the Commy textbook.

Which one is Brian Berletic again? The one that`s taking bungs for RT and Xinhua? The one that was dishnourably discharged? Or the paedo? I forget the requirements for the Sammer-approved media. If you`re not aware that warfare is generally slow during winter then your can`t really be up to scratch. The Ukrainians are still causing the Russians major problems and destroying vast quantities of personnel and equipment, which I`m sure if being openly reported in Moscow, along with the fact that the Ukrainians have control of the Black Sea despite having virtually no Navy! 😂

As things stand, the NATO air forces would make pretty short work of the Russian assets in Ukraine. As for China, there would be significant losses on both sides but the Chinese are WAY behind in terms of technology at Sea and in the air. China has no interest in war for the moment, but want to use the threat of war to get what they want.

You claim to be anti-war, yet support the side/man that started it all by undermining the Ukrainian state, stirring ethnic tensions and arming militias.

You claim to be "anti-Nazi" yet the man in the Kremlin you support is funding far-right parties across Europe, including AfD, Front Nationale etc

You`ve also made clear that you have no problem with the CCP invading Taiwan. Yet its everybody else doing the warmongering...

Funnily enough my maw is one of these "plebs fae the schemes", yet held the rank of Flying Officer. Go figure. As for my son, he would be eligible for military service in Japan, Sweden and Scotland/UK. Unforunately, due to auld zoomers like yerself, I very much doubt that he will live a long life completely in peace. I also doubt this for my own generation now, which I wouldn`t have before Putin attacked Ukraine.

At this stage, its quite obvious to everyone that yer basically an auld duffer too arrogant to admit they`ve got it wrong because the hole is so deep that to do so would be a colossal loss of face. A common problem in men your age I might add. You`d genuinely do well to think before you open yer gub and let yer belly rumble.

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: Parboiled  
Date:   Sun 21 Jan 08:14

More ageism HJ, tut tut ...do you think chaps should be culled when their down below bits turn grey haired and wrinkly?



Post Edited (Sun 21 Jan 08:16)
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy  
Date:   Sun 21 Jan 08:51

Naah, Parboiled, just to actually accept that the world has moved on from their views and that they can actually learn something from folk younger than them. Somehow though I think that level of humility is beyond you as well.

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sun 21 Jan 16:14

What is the purpose of this forum? To allow a sick person/bot (by name of sammer) to unload?

Sammer may think he can rubbish everyone who volunteered or was conscripted into the Britsh army for WW2, and many of whom were injured or killed - but if he thinks that equates to Hamas terrorism, I challenge his sanity, as well as his right to post such nasty ideas. I have had many relatives in the Forces, some of whom died or had amputations, and I can tell you they would not appreciate being equated to Hamas terrorists, neither is there any basis for it except in a sick mind.


Just take these quotes:

Ref: sammer Sat 20 Jan 23:19

"The scatological insults from OAUTP are [blah blah]...The reasons...may lie in some background in the police or the military where order (not ordure) was paramount."

------

i.e. he claims that from my comments it is reasonable to surmise that I have a police or military background. Nowhere near. My background is entirely in creative arts, not rules and regs. I suggest he`s mightily deluded on that count.

Quote:

"The conflicts in both Ukraine and Gaza are solvable... therefore anathema to warmongers like OUTP...Like SIF he wants Putin to be killed before any peace deal, if I read him right. So human life is not paramount despite his crocodile tears."

----------------------------

I`m a warmonger apparently, despite all the evidence in my posts to the contrary, but it suits him to invent such things and to believe that he does "read [me] right". I put it that`s further evidence of delusion.

He implies that I think every human life is sacrosanct. Not at all. There are many individuals that people in many places would be better off without. Mass murderers for example, of which there are currently two obvious examples.

So what are the "crocodile tears" ? When I post that I`m against the massacres of civilians in Gaza and Ukraine - how can I be accused of insincerity? Sammer claims the issue is black and white - you`re either a warmonger or pacifist. According to him, because I`m not 100% pacifist in regard to other issues, (pretty normal among people I know) I must therefore be a warmonger who is out to deceive.

Once again, another example of his delusions. I suggest that someone who consistently builds such arguments on ideas that have no basis in fact, is seriously mentally ill, not just your average depressive.

I put it that sammer is seriously mentally ill.



Post Edited (Mon 22 Jan 10:15)
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sun 21 Jan 16:43

Ref: sammer Sun 21 Jan 03:32

Another example of a sammer contradiction, indicating his inability to recognise self-delusion:

"If you are rash enough, or politically illiterate, then you shall follow HJ as did my grandfathers’ generation the McCrae battalion around 1914. My grandfather survived that one and... dinned into me, that I must never, never, never, follow a government into war unless your country is directly threatened."

--------------------------------

So, let`s recall WW2 - Nazi Germany has taken over Europe. British Forces fight them. That resistance, according to Sammer, equates to Hamas terrorism.*

In his post quoted above, he points out that you should never join up unless your country is directly threatened. Would a sane person try to pass off the idea that Nazi Germany did not directly threaten UK?

Given the above quote, would a sane person be continually posting in support of Russia invading Ukraine - when Russia was not directly threatened?

-----

*(Ref: sammer: "In my book [Hamas] are freedom fighters, not terrorists any more than those who fought the Nazis in Europe were. " (20 Jan, 23:190 ]

Post Edited (Sun 21 Jan 17:06)
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sun 21 Jan 17:34

Ref: sammer Sun 21 Jan 03:37

Yet another sammer contradiction: after I reported his abusive post, he claims he will abide by the "decision of the referee."

Then he goes on to claim he`s never reported anyone, despite claiming he`s suffered abusive posts.

That`s his right: report or not.

Then he implies that anyone who reports a poster is some sort of sneak, doing it in secret - after I had POSTED, CLEAR AND OBVIOUS, that I had reported him. So how does that relate to his idea of "hid[ing] behind the school sheds" and "sneak[ing] to teachers?"

It suits him if he can post absolutely anything, without comeback. He never retracts anything, or apologises for anything he`s got wrong. It`s an unhealthy situation.



Post Edited (Sun 21 Jan 17:38)
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: donj  
Date:   Sun 21 Jan 18:38

This site seems to be turning into WW3 itself.
Basically all wars are wrong and always the most casualties are the poor so I wish they would stop.The only happy people in wars are the weapon producers and I`ll say nothing about where most of them are but I can say pretty surely they are not in Gaza or Ukraine.

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: Andrew283  
Date:   Sun 21 Jan 22:32

IDF forces now posting public tik toks in bombed Gaza schools, mocking the empty classrooms. It`s time for the world to finally boot Israel back to the kerb, absolute deplorable c**ts
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Sun 21 Jan 22:39

This is getting a bit out of hand, OAUTP. Sammer has solid and consistent views on the topics here, but to claim he has mental health issues because his views don`t align with the "norm" is shocking and grossly insulting.

You didn`t call for me to be banned when, a fortnight ago, I referred to Hamas as "freedom fighters", which I, too, consider them to be.

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Sun 21 Jan 22:49

Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy
Date: Sun 21 Jan 08:51

Naah, Parboiled, just to actually accept that the world has moved on from their views and that they can actually learn something from folk younger than them. Somehow though I think that level of humility is beyond you as well.

===

A bit of humility on your part wouldn`t go amiss, HJ. To dismiss our views as "out of date" is arrogant and ill-advised. For the most part, you have no knowledge or understanding of the life experiences of the senior posters here. You might be surprised.

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Sun 21 Jan 22:56

Topic Originator: Andrew283
Date: Sun 21 Jan 22:32

IDF forces now posting public tik toks in bombed Gaza schools, mocking the empty classrooms. It`s time for the world to finally boot Israel back to the kerb, absolute deplorable c**ts

===

I 100% agree with you. There is a sadism in Israeli society today that needs to be exorcised. Despite the lessons of history, they seem to have inherited and expanded on the worst behaviour of the Nazis.

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Mon 22 Jan 01:52

You folk who are supporting sammer`s lies and propaganda have fecked this forum.

Oz - I showed in my last three posts, examples of sammer`s absence of logic.

You and his other supporters think I`m wrong about that. OK - present your case. Look at those last three posts of mine and show us sammer`s logic if you can.

It`s not a case of his ideas "don`t align with the norm" as you claim, Oz - (the usual feeble cop-out that gets posted whenever mental health is mentioned) - and it`s not the case that all sammer`s posts are just his opinions and he`s entitled to them. Just stick to the logic and make a case for them being logical if you can.

If that`s too much trouble, just make a case for him calling me a warmonger.* Find the logic there if you can. Shouldn`t be too difficult.

Any takers? If none - if all you can do is claim sammer is logical, but can`t show it - then it begs the question - why are posters on here supporting sammer? Not for the reasons thay say. Blind loyalty? They`re his buddies? Could there be some Russophilia among them as well?

I see that you Oz, also equate the murdering feckers Hamas to British resistance of the Nazis in WW2. So all in all you`ve a bit of explaining to do if you want me to respect your comments.

BTW I agree, as I`ve said before, that the Israeli leadership are also despicable murdering shipes who are as bad as Hamas, so don`t bother trying to pin something on me in that regard.


*sammer Sat 20 Jan 23:19, Quote:

"anathema to warmongers like OAUTP"



Post Edited (Mon 22 Jan 03:34)
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Mon 22 Jan 09:34

While we`re at it Oz, have a go at getting your facts straight first, before you go passing judgement.

Referring to objectionable content, in sammers post where he equated Hamas to Allied Forces fighting the Nazis in WW2 - I did not, as you implied, call for sammer to be "banned."

I reported that part of his post and asked for that part to be deleted. That is my right, yeh? Do I have no right to do that?

As for what he said about me, and other nonsense in that post, I didn`t ask for it to be removed. I didn`t even ask for his claim that I`m a "warmonger" to be removed. It`s wrong, but I`d just as soon take issue with that by posting about it rather than having it deleted.

I don`t have to explain any of this to anyone, but I take the trouble to do it in the interest of clarity.

And you`re wrong to imply that I claimed `he has mental health issues because his views don`t align with the "norm" `. As I showed with the examples I gave, he has mental health issues not only, but substantially, because he repeatedly builds accusations on false premises.



Post Edited (Mon 22 Jan 10:02)
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: red-star-par  
Date:   Mon 22 Jan 16:25

I don`t think you can claim Sammer has mental health issues, it`s pretty clear to me that he is a non Russian living in Russia, so he has no option other than to parrot the narrative he had been fed, as any other action will lead to him being beaten a raped by the Police and a lengthy jail sentence
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Tue 23 Jan 03:01

Ref: red-star-par Mon 22 Jan 16:25

"I don`t think you can claim Sammer has mental health issues, it`s pretty clear to me that he is a non Russian living in Russia, so he has no option other than to parrot the narrative he had been fed, as any other action will lead to him being beaten and raped by the Police and a lengthy jail sentence"

------------------------------------------------------------------

You have just posted to the effect that Russian Police? are forcing him to post Russian propaganda on this forum.

Effectively you are saying, he`s not free to give threads on this forum about Russia a miss, and he`s not free to give this politics forum a miss altogether.

How do you know any of that?





Post Edited (Tue 23 Jan 03:14)
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: Socks  
Date:   Sun 28 Jan 22:47

So, the ICJ has imposed provisional measures in the case of what might amount to genocide. The judgement is here and is worth a read:

https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20240126-ord-01-00-en.pdf

The provisional measures are not those that South Africa had asked for, but it does look significant that they have been applied at all rather than being dismissed as Israel had asked for. Most were approved with a 15-2 majority.

And having had this outcome from a UN court on Friday, it can hardly just be a coincidence to see Israel use this weekend to go on what looks like an all-out assault on the UN and its various institutions. I haven`t seen any background to the accusations against UNRWA staff, but it does seem an incredible coincidence that evidence should emerge the day immediately following the ICJ ruling.

Whatever the truth of this, it`s surely utterly mad for Western governments to withdraw funding for the agency that deals with refugees in Gaza at a time when 75% of the population fo the Gaza strip have been forced from their homes. It`s actually disgusting. Are we seriously saying that we, as citizens of these countries, actually want to do something that makes things worse for people in Gaza given the already horrific conditions?

This has a very bad feel to it.

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Mon 29 Jan 09:17

That is a very good post socks ..

We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: Parboiled  
Date:   Mon 29 Jan 13:01

Humza is continuing funding despite foreign aid being entirely a reserved matter. Scots pay their fair share in taxes to fund the UK foreign aid budget, he is grandstanding with money he has nicked from other devolved budgets. We pay twice in other words

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Mon 29 Jan 15:58

Quote:

Parboiled, Mon 29 Jan 13:01

Humza is continuing funding despite foreign aid being entirely a reserved matter. Scots pay their fair share in taxes to fund the UK foreign aid budget, he is grandstanding with money he has nicked from other devolved budgets. We pay twice in other words


Not going to lie, that IS frustrating. It`s not quite as bad as the Labour administration sending money BACK that could have been spent.
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Mon 29 Jan 17:04

1 The BBC says the Scottish Government has no plans to send more aid to Gaza.

2 If foreign aid is reserved why didn`t Alister Jack step in and stop it?

3 I thought we didn`t pay our fair share of taxes? Aren`t we `subsidised` by the UK?

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy  
Date:   Thu 1 Feb 14:09

Oz, the clear distinction between you and Sammer is that you actually look around and try to research different things and come to a balanced view. Granted I have criticised your reliance on Chinese and Russian sources which are most definitely not factually reliable, but I think you genuinely go into it with an open mind which you should be credited for.

Simply put, I think that younger folk are better at distinguishing credible sources than your generation simply because its ingrained in subjects like Modern Studies and History at school and the same in the sciences when writing reports at the higher levels. We`ve also grown up in the information age and have a level of digital literacy that is near impossible for those that didn`t grow up with it to achieve - its like trying to learn Cantonese Chinese at 32! My parents at 73 and 65 quite openly say this.

Sammer is quite obviously a "dyed in the wool" Communist and authoritarian schill. He simply grandstands and preaches ideology but can`t deal with it when confronted with somebody with the proper technical and historical knowledge, which has been shown time and again.

Personally I find the grandstanding and harking back to WWI and "Aristocratic Officers" hilarious, mainly because my own Grandfather (whose father was fairly well-known in Red Clydeside) was the son of tradesman and made it from Sergeant Pilot up to Squadron Leader (Major) on Spitfires between 1940-47 and then Wing Commander (Lt. Colonel) post-war in the reserves, while his sons made Police Superintendent/Squadron Leader (Major) and Flight Lieutenant (Captain). Funnily enough, he spent his post-war service training Turks, Saudis, Iranians, Iraqis and I believe Israelis to fly before being offered command of a flight school in India but he rejected this because it was too hot and he didn`t like spicy food. He was always seemed to be of the impression that what the Israelis did to the Palestinians was "just as bad as what the Nazis did to the Jews", which I think is pretty impressive for somebody born in 1922.

If an admiration of Authoritarianism isn`t out of date, then I really don`t know what is?

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy  
Date:   Thu 1 Feb 15:38

Back to the topic at hand though, I agree with Socks` post and was pleased to see the preliminary rulings of the ICJ and I hope that the rumours of Ireland and Spain throwing their weight behind South Africa`s motion come to fruition.

Israel does seem to have directed itself into an irreversible spiral that I think is very much about Netanyahu`s political survival and avoidance of the major corruption charges that he was facing.

All that said, I wouldn`t dismiss the idea that Russia and Iran were involved in the provision of weapons to Hamas as means of a distraction tactic.

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Fri 2 Feb 09:33

Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy
Date: Thu 1 Feb 14:09


Simply put, I think that younger folk are better at distinguishing credible sources than your generation simply because its ingrained in subjects like Modern Studies and History at school and the same in the sciences when writing reports at the higher levels. We`ve also grown up in the information age and have a level of digital literacy that is near impossible for those that didn`t grow up with it to achieve - its like trying to learn Cantonese Chinese at 32! My parents at 73 and 65 quite openly say this.

---

Oh, HJ, now it’s agism… you are incorrigible!

Consider this for a moment. Probably a dozen folks on dotnet today were around when it started 30 years ago. A handful of these were in the Pars email group that pre-empted dotnet by three or four years. I am pretty proud to say that I am one of them.

So, what does that tell you?

Firstly, most, but not all, of the above groups will today be in their sixties and seventies. And secondly, all these folk were early adopters of the internet and its associated technologies. Most of us were in high-tech, energy, communications industries, government agencies or academic institutions at the time.

My son, who is probably your age, he is 42, was introduced to computers and the internet at home when I bought one at great expense with a painfully slow modem sometime in 1992. He was still in primary school. I was already using the internet at work for communications and research. When Windows 95 emerged three years later, the world went on to the internet, and before we knew it, we had reached here.

The point I am making is that you are a million miles off the mark when you dismiss people my age, suggesting we lack internet savvy or the ability to distinguish between good and bad sources properly. I have already explained my methodology, learnt at work, which centres around a 360-degree survey of a subject. If that means including the viewpoint of China, Russia, or Iran, then so be it. And if I eventually agree with those viewpoints, you can rest assured that the opposite views were fully considered.

You mentioned that achieving digital literacy is like learning a foreign language. Funnily enough, I am currently trying to learn Mandarin. Even at 69 and having had a mild stroke a few years ago, I think it is essential always to keep one’s brain active.

You will be my age too, one day, and doubtless, there will be some young fellow telling you that you don’t have the skills anymore. I trust you will take a leaf from my book and send him packing with a flea in his ear…

😊

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy  
Date:   Fri 2 Feb 14:35

Oz, playing the prejudice card is very often the tactic of someone who realises they can`t muster a viable counter argument.

For context, I`m 32 and my own son is 4. I`m currently working in Hong Kong so the analogy regarding learning Cantonese at 32 was there for very good reason. If my wee man doesn`t grow up to be smarter and more tech-savvy than me then I would consider it a failure on my part as his father. I saw you say on another thread that you just hit 70, meaning you would have been born in the 50s and grown up in the 60s. I don`t think for 1 second you would deny that the advances made during your years on this planet are remarkable and that the difference in society between your birth and now is marked to say the least. Humanity and Society progresses - it`s that simple - and education progresses along with that.

There is a huge difference between "considering the perspective of Russia and China" and establishing something as fact. In fact, I would say that the change of language here is a tacit admission of the fact that you`ve realised your mistake in trusting the likes of Xinhua and RT .You say I shouldn`t dismiss the views of your generation, however to put the other way: Should you not be considered "old and wise enough" to know a thing or two about the press freedom and the propaganda apparatus of United Russia and the CCP? With that statement, you`ve basically admitted that you are willing to believe information that has no factual basis - where is the integrity in that?

I`m not questioning that older folk are capable of learning new skills. I taught the Grandfather I mentioned earlier to use a Windows XP laptop about 15 years ago and he did pick it up very quickly. I`ve also taught my 73 year old father many an IT related thing - my personal favourite was getting him off his bloody Blackberry to an Android phone 2 years ago. As somebody who works in Fintech and grew up in the information age, I`ll openly admit that its extremely difficult to keep updated with all of the advances going on with regard to technology and coding. On that basis I think I can say with authority that your generation will never catch mine in terms of tech savviness, much in the same way that I will never speak Japanese as well as my son who is growing up with it as one of his mother tongues. He will (hopefully) exceed me in all aspects and I view that positively.

I do think older generations in Scotland and the wider UK have a problem with accepting expertise that counters their own narrative because they`ve always grown up with the "respect your elders" mantra and so don`t expect to be challenged - that is quite apparent in man a thread on here.


Post Edited (Fri 02 Feb 14:40)
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Mon 5 Feb 02:08

The arrogance of youth. You call it prejudice; I would call it respect, peppered with a touch of humility. You say I can’t muster a viable counter-argument; I say, well, that would be a first!

For accuracy, I have yet to hit 70, but I will at the end of the year. Yes, the advances since my birth have been remarkable, but then again, so they were for my father, who was born a hundred years ago and died in 2011. My grandfather was born on a Highland croft in 1887 and died on the same croft in 1970; although his immediate world changed little, the world around him changed enormously while his generation encountered two world wars.

You accuse me of being unable to distinguish between information sources, suggesting I don’t understand the motivations of Russian or Chinese news agencies. Yet, you twitter on about NATO and the effectiveness of weaponry given to Ukraine, suggesting their victory is just around the corner. This is pure fantasy supplied to you by some extremely dodgy sources.

Occasionally, I watch a news video from Times Radio on YouTube. Undoubtedly, this is the British equivalent of RT and Xinhua. They spout absolute tripe. I can’t believe how low The Times has stooped in recent years.

I understand that you work in academia, and that would explain, to a degree, your forthrightness and confidence in your views. Still, I caution you to hold back on some of your accusations, which are considerably wide of the mark. In other words, as your generation is fond of saying, do your research.

Age has nothing to do with this. Experience is the key factor here.

My knowledge of the international media and its workings would be better than yours by a factor of a thousand. While I would certainly bow down to your “tech-savviness”, that doesn’t preclude me from having a passing understanding of the principles behind the Blockchain, which, as far as I understand, underpins current and future technology in the fintech industry. I first heard of this from a senior banker speaking at a conference at the University of Tasmania several years ago. I have been fascinated by its growing applications in everyday life ever since.

Incidentally, I, too, was a guest speaker at that conference, so you might consider being less dismissive of your elders.

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Palestine/Israel continued. Part 2
Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy  
Date:   Mon 5 Feb 09:12

Oz - "arrogance of youth", "respect your elders"...and you accuse me of being ageist? 😂

For accuracy, I work in Fintech - fraud and cybersecurity to be precise - and not Academia. This is why I have a strong working knowledge of the misinformation being pumped out by Russia, China, Israel, Saudi to name but a few. I studied Chemistry and Astrophysics and did various other courses in Russian, Chinese, Asian and European history, politics and economics because in Sweden its free and so why not? Previously I taught High School Chemistry, Physics and Maths which is maybe where you got this from.

I actually said that you seemed willing to accept the statements of Russian and Chinese media outlets as established fact. You have done this several times when you have said "Russia is about to defeat Ukraine" when the only folk saying this are the Russians. Strangely, this is yet to happen and with new aid packages coming in, I very much doubt it will. That`s quite different from being unable or refusing to distinguish between different sources as seems to be the case with Sammer.

If you had done your research properly on Ukraine then you`d see that the Western Weaponry has actually been extremely effective but the issue is with quantities, ammunition supplies and logistics, which have for the moment dried up because of the US Republicans.

As for Times Radio, they are an interesting one and from what I`ve seen, they have several interviews with many retired generals and somehow I think they are better versed in warfare than either of us. Moreover, the Ukrainians are fighting (and inflicting more damage on the Russians) without air superiority or a Navy to speak of. These are conditions under which NATO would NEVER send in regular ground troops. The consensus among them through various outlets is that the West has been far too slow with providing training, weaponry and munitions. I`m curious as to why you singled Times Radio out? Regardless, I think that somehow Times Radio have a substantially higher factuality rating than pretty much everything coming out from state-media in Russia or China. Personally, I like to use Ground News to look at different stories.

I have never suggested that Ukrainian victory "is round the corner". I have said that if the Ukrainians gain air superiority with the F16, which is a distinct possibility, then that changes the face of the land battle which changes a lot of perceptions about the war.

In the last post though, you`ve not really made an argument other than "I`m older, so know more than you, so you should listen to me". I agree that Experience is key, but the relevance of said experience is far more important. And age doesn`t really play a role there.

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Top of Board  |  Forum List  |  Threaded View   Forum Rules  |  Newer Topic  |  Older Topic  |  end 


Rows: 1
 Forum List  |  Need a Login? Register Here 
 User Login
 User Name:
 Password:
 Remember my login:
   
 Forgot Your Password?
Enter your email address or user name below and a new password will be sent to the email address associated with your profile.
Security : type 'pars' in the box:
email:
© 2021-- DAFC.net